America right now is at war with every person in the world. i dont mean that are going to send out the inola gay and bomb nagasaki again but slowly and surely america is crushing the life out of people.

How are they doing this, this is how.

macdonalds
friends (the tv show)
the simpsons
fashion

everyone looks up to america and live like them or try to a bit more everyday. so when it comes down to people saying, hey is america going to crash like the Roman Empire did when they bite off to much the answer is no. The truth is that we are all little Americas now as we swallow there TV programs and eat their food and wear their clothes, we need to stop this before we turn in to the United Continents of America Damn them

In the past, everything was Rome.

Once everything was Paris.

Even London.

Vienna.


Hollywood too will pass.

Nox

Pop culture fades, and you are forgetting that if the shows were so repugnant to their viewers, no one would watch. The shows may or may not be crap, but only how many people watch them is important.

Just out of interest, what harm do Friends and the Simpsons do... if anything they make America seem unappealing and lame. Although McDonalds is very very wrong.

Piggaro I notice that you are English. Have you ever noticed of what England did for 300 years. At one time there were a lot of "little Englands". What do you call India and Pakistan? Or all those countries of Africa that were under British control? America's powe will wean just like that of Englands.

quote:

---

Originally posted by piggarro99:
America right now is at war with every person in the world.

---

I take it that you use the term "America" to say USA?! A valid question, as you claim to speak in the interest of non-(US)-American cultures.

The only war USA is, right now, engaged in, is a war of protection against a wave of terror, that very likely is the start of a global, Islamist attack war. If so, you and I and everybody else in the world, should aknowledge that they are also protecting us, and our freedom (for us in the free world).

By this I also want to point out, that using the word WAR for anything than actual war, is to lessen the nature or war in a way that we must avoid. To go to war to protect ourselves is sometimes, still, unavoidable, but we are motivated to seek alternative solutions if we keep in mind the disastrous nature of war.

As most of us still do that, your use of the term war, becomes an accusation, and an insult; even more because you point out USA as a whole.

And you�re even aware of it, because you continue to say:

quote:

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i dont mean that are going to send out the inola gay and bomb nagasaki again

---

Oh, I see! But then, don�t call it war. Not even for dramatical, propagandist effect!

quote:

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but slowly and surely america is crushing the life out of people.

---

"america is crushing"; i.e. an deliberate, collective, and/or by government instigated or sanctioned action.

When you throw around accusations like that, you also need to show real proof.

Do that in your reply, please!

Because this is not it:

quote:

---

How are they doing this, this is how.

macdonalds
friends (the tv show)
the simpsons
fashion

---

Last time I checked, USA was a capitalist democracy, and MacDonald�s a free, global enterprise (that started out in USA). If USA is still a capitalist democracy, none of the companies involved in the production of the TV-shows are controlled by the state; not by the US governemnt, and not by the collective of the US people. The same goes for "fashion", whether you mean clothes or trends in general.

Your examples are also weak in another perspective:

Simpsons, is very often a satire and questioning of USA and its ideals; especially how these are put in practice. To use partly "subversive" material as propaganda, as you say it is, would be a grave error, and therefore easy to avoid.

Fashion and trends may seemingly come from USA, but a lot of the designers and trend-setters are from Europe and other parts of the world, based in USA for practical and economical reasons. But they do still use their cultural heritage as an important part of their work; designs or whatever it may be.

The most influential "stars" of fashion design and trend-setting, are predominantly non-US Americans.

quote:

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everyone looks up to america and live like them or try to a bit more everyday.

---

But, higher up you said that "america is at war" and "america is crushing". Now, you all of a sudden say that we are bringing it upon ourselves?!

Wich way is it?!

quote:

---

we need to stop this before we turn in to the United Continents of America Damn them

---

It is true that we, for a lot of reasons -that could be summarized as developement and progress -
need to keep a broad perspective of cultures alive.

But it is as important that we protect our democratic freedom, and even try to spread it - by non-violent means - around the globe. Becuase democracy is the best protection of human life and human freedom, we have come up with. And at the moment USA is in many ways the only efficient protector of democracy, when it is threatened by acts of war.

USA has to be held after in doing that, but accusations of global imperialism is far off target. So far off that it lessens the effect of the critique, as it sounds and seems like conspiranoia - wich it also often is.

The imbalances of culture, trends and fashions, are partly what keeps that motor running. A total balance is a stand-still. and so is a total dominance by one culture. In that respect we must protect, and even broaden, the multiple input and output. But to do it from the assumption that culture is "under siege" from USA is to totally miss the point.

Worry less and think more!

FoxLeonard


[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-16-2002).]

when i say that america is at war with everyone i mean that they are brainwashing people to become them through there TV. We see how a civilization turns out when they dont have the mod cons that americans so readily give out. (afghan) splice that with the terror reign of al quaeda bless em

All i am trying to say is that when people see USA as the fatherland of this planet it annoys me, as much as yanks who crassly shout "were number one"

but the truth is that when america falls there will be no other super power left, england is too small, Russia too sparse and you can forget Al-quaeda, tho they do try hard.

I also have realise that you take in to account a valid point that (i wont use the term 'we' as it wasnt me) the english raped burned and pillaged scotland india pakistan Rhodesia (names after Cecil Rhodes, the thiefing shit that stole the economy of diamonds) and many other places. but i am trying to bring this topic to another level.

The point that i am trying to make is that America will never die because it perpetuates its evil in the form of everything that a country has. From sport to clothing. So when it comes down to it they are becoming another america as there traditional way of life is being quashed (not squashed)

... hey nox, said i would be back

quote:

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Originally posted by piggarro99:
when i say that america is at war with everyone i mean that they are brainwashing people to become them through there TV.

---

You persist in accusing "america" (as you persist in calling it) to be at war with everyone, and this time you add to the accusations by pointing out that "they" are brainwashing people. You clearly say it to be a deliberate action of waqr, taken by them upon us.

Give me one single indication that this is about deliberate actions.

Give me one single indication that the source of this is "america" as a collective whole and as a governed state.

Explain to me, a layman, how brainwashing by TV works. Just in simple terms, please.

quote:

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We see how a civilization turns out when they dont have the mod cons that americans so readily give out. (afghan) splice that with the terror reign of al quaeda bless em

---

Here you have to excuse me. As English is not my first language, this becomes more muddled in my eyes than it perhaps is.

I hope it says that the example of Afghanistan under the Taliban is a warning about what could happen if we don�t protect our democratic freedom.

But at the very end you seem to bless Al Qaida?!

Clarify please.

quote:

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All i am trying to say is that when people see USA as the fatherland of this planet it annoys me

---

If and when people (over)do that, it annoys me too. But I don�t accuse "the americans" for my fellow Swedes� or anybodys wrong assumptions.

quote:

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as much as yanks who crassly shout "were number one"

---

When the idividual or group in question do that, for the wrong reasons, I point it out. But I don�t adress the whole US American people. They are individuals, not a collective acting out everything in unison.

quote:

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but the truth is that when america falls there will be no other super power left, england is too small, Russia too sparse and you can forget Al-quaeda, tho they do try hard.

---

Very true! So let us then hope that USA doesn�t fall at all. And let us hope that the EU and Russia can work united in their (our) support to USA, when they try to protect our democratic freedom. Let us also hope that the EU and Russia can strengthen their positions to enable a better balance in global politics. Let us not only hope for that, but also work for that!

Yes, you and me included.

I have reason to think that you honestly believe yourself to be doing something like that. But I also have reason to point out, that accusations about "US American imperialism" - be it political or cultural -
is not the way to do it.

quote:

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I also have realise that you take in to account a valid point that (i wont use the term 'we' as it wasnt me) the english raped burned and pillaged scotland india pakistan Rhodesia (names after Cecil Rhodes, the thiefing shit that stole the economy of diamonds) and many other places. but i am trying to bring this topic to another level.

---

What punkrwkerstonershit pointed out are historical facts. If it had been a proven fact that USA is deliberately trying to take over every other culture by the means of brainwashing, it would perhaps have made some point to say that it isn�t the first time imperialism by force has happened, and that other countries have done it in worse ways.

As it is now, we have a bunch of loose, but grave accusations and insults, but no proof what so ever...

Wich makes me wonder a little what "other level" you want to bring this topic to. If you mean a higher level:

Stop the accusations and the propagandist abuse of the word war, or bring forth proof of same.

quote:

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The point that i am trying to make is that America will never die because it perpetuates its evil in the form of everything that a country has. From sport to clothing. So when it comes down to it they are becoming another america as there traditional way of life is being quashed (not squashed)

---

Once again. English is not my first language. This may not be muddled, but to me it looks unfinished or incomplete, at best...

FoxLeonard

~~~Term Lucidification Time~~~~

the argument that i have put forward in the given government conspiracy is that USA use the role models of Tv and the Many TGC's (Trans Global Corporations) to change the way people are in other countries.

There is no proof, if there was proof i would be merely stating fact rather than a thought out conspiracy.

the way that i see television indoctrinate other countries is by setting up role models that a child takes on board and adopts, thus loosing his\her way of life and will adorn the "American (usa) way"

this all stems when i was up late watching digital tv in england and i saw a program that i heard had bad reviews in the middle east, the program was called My place your place and all it did was brag about USA and the fact it was so great to do this and that.

the next thing that makes me feel this way would have to be the whole business side of USA. The very fact that people in the far reaches of the earth are eating American food and buying American clothes only de sensitises them from what they usually would have.

"in short"

People with the audacity not to think, act, eat, or wear ""usa style items"" are outcast by the rest of the world. If that isnt the case then they are pointed out in our tabloid papers as "extremists" for not having TV or something equally risable

quote:

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Originally posted by piggarro99:
... hey nox, said i would be back

---

It's about time.

Nox

Piggypoo, are you saying that the government is collaborating with American corporations to control the world? Dude, I think not.

American corporations have nothing to do with government. They have a single goal of gaining capital and money.

Piggypoo, here, is an idiot. Corporations do not conspire with government. Some corporations do, however, give lots of money to politicians. But that would require a brain cell or two to discuss, now wouldn't it?

piggaro is completely right...
he got past the propaganda and saw wat the usa govt is truely doin.. good on ya mate.

quote by foxleonard
"The only war USA is, right now, engaged in, is a war of protection against a wave of terror, that very likely is the start of a global, Islamist attack war. If so, you and I and everybody else in the world, should aknowledge that they are also protecting us, and our freedom (for us in the free world)."

HAHAHA sounds like fox is brainwashed to the extent that he just repeats the words comin from george bush and ariel sharon.

quote:

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Originally posted by piggarro99:
~~~Term Lucidification Time~~~~

---

Time of Illumination / Enlightment?!

quote:

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the argument that i have put forward in the given government conspiracy is that USA use the role models of Tv and the Many TGC's (Trans Global Corporations) to change the way people are in other countries.

---

You have hinted at that all the time, yes. Now, for the first time, you clearly state that the US government is involved. Actually, a succession of US governments, since the 1970ies at least, and from both political parties.

To make that work they must in effect be one, single political party (or a kind of cartell). This means that the US people vote for no reason, and that George W Bush and Al Gore only pretended to be in disagreement about who won the votes in Florida, among other things.

Then you imply that the US governments, since long, are in control of all TV production within the USA. Or that (at least certain) TV networks around the world are part of the conspiracy, and therefore only buy the shows made for propaganda purposes (but I guess that they don�t have to pay for it, then).

On top of that you claim that the US governments, since long, are in control of the so called Trans Global Companies, we now have. Companies of wich many are so huge and wealthy, that they since long are compareable to sovereign states in themselves.

The reason for doing all this is to change the way people are in other countries?!

quote:

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There is no proof, if there was proof i would be merely stating fact rather than a thought out conspiracy.

---

If you read your own posts again, you will find that you have, for the most part, stated what you say as facts. Also in this post.

Yes, facts about conspiracies are admittedly hard to find. Therefore I asked for a single indication that the US government was involved in all this.

You have failed to give such an indication. Still you clearly state that the US government IS behind this vast conspiracy. What brings you to that conclusion? What rules out that the TGC�s are doing it on their own? What makes you so sure?!

quote:

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the way that i see television indoctrinate other countries is by setting up role models that a child takes on board and adopts, thus loosing his\her way of life and will adorn the "American (usa) way"

---

Yes, there is such an effect of "indoctrination" from television, but television (and similar media) are not the only thing that makes a child into a cultural being.

But you still have a point here. In many countries in the western world, there is, perhaps, too much US television to make it possible for the children to get a good an early grasp of their own country�s culture.
To a lesser degree it could also be said about the choice for adults.

This is often discussed in Europe, as you should know, and from time to time they also try to do something about it. I believe France now has a law to regulate some of it. At least they proposed it. Sometimes they even get the bright idea to make better, domestic, TV shows for children themselves. Wich probably is the best, and only, free and democratic way to do it.

quote:

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this all stems when i was up late watching digital tv in england and i saw a program that i heard had bad reviews in the middle east, the program was called My place your place and all it did was brag about USA and the fact it was so great to do this and that.

---

Middle Easterners (apart from Israelites, perhaps) are probably not the best reviewers of any kind of western television and culture. And they wouldn�t have been so even before the anti-US propaganda got its grip on them. And I hope you do know that most Muslim people in the Middle East are VERY indoctrinated, with anti-US propaganda.
That is NOT an invention by CNN (or the US government, or anybody).

Apart from that. Even I would give a harsh and bad review of a program that did nothing but brag about the USA (or about England, for that matter).

quote:

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the next thing that makes me feel this way would have to be the whole business side of USA. The very fact that people in the far reaches of the earth are eating American food and buying American clothes only de sensitises them from what they usually would have.

---

In many cases they would perhaps have nothing at all. Many don�t have.

But once again you have a point. It is not good if the US input is so dominant that the local culture dissapears. A lot of human progress stems from the meetings between different cultures, and sometimes from real clashes of cultures.

But this must also be taken into consideration the other way around. It�s not only bad - much less evil - with the influence from USA (or any other culture) on another culture.

quote:

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"in short"

People with the audacity not to think, act, eat, or wear ""usa style items"" are outcast by the rest of the world. If that isnt the case then they are pointed out in our tabloid papers as "extremists" for not having TV or something equally risable

---

This is far from true about most of Europe, for example. But there is a tendency towards it. If that tendency is unsound, I don�t know.

When you say "they are pointed out as extremists", you must also remember that in the last few years, every big political meeting has been haunted by riots. Riots instigated by young people in "strange" clothes, who claim to dislike USA and Globalism. The minority that take part in the riots "contaminate" the peaceful majority, as they look the same to outsiders. Only a few are actual extremists, but the blame is unfortunately put on all of them.

You have a lot of concern and some good points, but none of them has to do with a conspiracy. Much less a conspiracy of the vast proportions you claim it to be.

Keep up your concern, and use your commitment on something else than conspiranoia!

In reference to the muddled "title" of your last post, it�s appropriate for me to finish off with a hearty:

Ewige Blumenkraft, to you!

FoxLeonard




[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-17-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blue-Rock:

quote by foxleonard
"The only war USA is, right now, engaged in, is a war of protection against a wave of terror, that very likely is the start of a global, Islamist attack war. If so, you and I and everybody else in the world, should aknowledge that they are also protecting us, and our freedom (for us in the free world)."

HAHAHA sounds like fox is brainwashed to the extent that he just repeats the words comin from george bush and ariel sharon.

---

Yes it does, doesn�t it?

And you know it to be different; the very opposite I guess?!

Then, prove to me - or show me proof (links, whatever) - that there�s is no terror to protect us from, much less an attempt at an Islamist attack on the western world.

Then you must, for the sake of argument, assume that I could be right about this global terror war. Hard for you, I know. But if you manage that, can you please tell me what small countries, like most European states, should do on their own, to protect themselves.

I should perhaps also inform you that I utterly detest Ariel Sharon and his government, and their actions. If I swallowed someone�s propaganda, it wasn�t his, I can assure you.

Now I�m eager to be disproved and informed...

FoxLeonard

fox first of u seem to think that muslims are fighting the USA because they hate them for no reason, well let me educate u a bit about islam because the western media have affected ur brain and it is a shame as i see that u r an intelligent person fighting for the wrong ppl.

as u may have noticed that the USA has been in a war "against terror" as u might like to call it to make ur self feel better about the inncocent ppl dying in the process.

The USA after overcoming the communist threats from the soviet union have turned to fight another ideology that challenges their greedy imperialistc policies, Islam.

Islam is a religion that has laws commanding every aspect of life including politics and economy, it is an ideology that challenges imperialism as it wants to free their ppl (the oppressed and if u want proof go visit the middle east) from american rule, the americans love oil and as it happens, the muslims have most of the oil reserves. SO the USA has put a few 10's of thouands of men in different muslim countries just so that their companies can safely pump out the oil (stealing some in the process - did i say some? sorry i meant billions of dollars worth) and as u should recall (if u eva follow the news) the ppl of saudia arabia have killed american soldiers as they dont want them there, but the government (USA puppets) wants them there so they can keep sucking up 2 america.

anyway bak 2 islam- in PROPER islam u dont fight unless u r attaked, and the muslims that attak america have been attaked but the attaks of the usa have been hidden by their media. PLZ and i say this again PLZ DO NOT CLASSIFY SADDAM AS A MUSLIM , he is a Fascist that thinks arabs r the master race (thus the reason he kills kurds) and in islam there is NO racism, blacks have been freed in africa from slavery in all muslim nations almost 1600 years ago when islam emerged.

SO if the USA truly wants the world 2 be peaceful and doesnt want terror in the world then they should get out of foreign countries and should stop supporting the zionists in israel and if they dont then it means that if they strike a muslim nation they should expect attaks like sep 11 in the future as this is a war they r in so they shouldnt be surprised that the "good" usa got attaked by "evil" musims.

1-islam never strikes first
2-islam is against oppression and racism
Laters

FoxLeonard is now added to my list of personal heros. Very good posts.

I find it insulting to try an argue a post and have it thrown in my face that somehow I am not enligtened enough or lack a true knowledge of the world. I challenge them to prove their enlightenment, to think that somehow that they can claim enlightenment without baking it up with any real proof is a luxury of the profoundly arrogant or condescending. It is simmilar to how an impactient adult describes the world to a child. It is an inefective method of argumentation and proves nothing other than your high opinion of yourself.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:

Islam is a religion that has laws commanding every aspect of life including politics and economy, it is an ideology that challenges imperialism as it wants to free their ppl

---

God, what an idiot!

Islam is totalitarian, but it wants to free people? HA!

Blue Rock is a joke, people. How can you possibly take this idiot seriously after this?

"Oh please, people, dont call Saddam a muslim, he's an innocent arab but, muslims control the oil". Sounds like your saying Saddam is automatically not a Muslim but the Middle East is automatically Muslim.

quote:

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1-islam never strikes first
2-islam is against oppression and racism

---

Who the fuck are you kidding? Islam struck the WTC in 1993 and 2001, unprovoked. Please tell me it was provoked, cmon....

Islam struck Bali, unprovoked, please again, tell me it wasn't.

Islam sucks, people.

Anyway, Islam/State-Islam is the pinancle of oppression. Please just shut the fuck up and disappear from totse. And if not, please God, just argue with me why Islam is not oppresive. I am saving my many thoughts regarding Islam/State-Islam based on your rebuttal.

Go away.

buthraxx i bet u r a retard who doesnt know anything that is happening in this world-I NEVER SAID SADDAM WAS INNOCENT I HATE HIS ASS..and many ppl think automatically that hes a muslim because he lives in the middle east (as they r mostly muslims) .
As i mentioned before, the muslims were attacked first u monkey, thats why they attacked america, im not saying what they did was right but they had their reasons.
butthrax even when ur friends put up a decent argument u tend to kill it because of ur stupidity.

Im not going to explain the principles of islam but i have read about it and it seems 2 have a lot of merit 2 it, If it sucked like u say then why does it have 1 billion followers?????? So what if it has laws in every area of life it doesnt mean u cant give ur opinion or live freely, it gives u guidelines in life like u cant steal or kill or wateva , so r u sayin because it has different laws 2 ur laws it is a denial of ppl's freedom? UR THE JOKE MATE,the USA has laws about almost everything as well but they tend to be different like u can have prostitutes in the USA while in islam that is prohibited (they respect woman more), as i cannot tell u everything about islam maybe u should go to elementary school and learn 2 read and then why dont u go read a few books and then come back coz honestly ur ignorance makes me sick...

Before the shit really starts to fly, I want to make it damn fucking clear that there is a HUGE difference between theoretical Islam and the Islam that is actually being practiced in the world. With that being said, on with the shit slinging.

If you truly want to considering the Muslims being attacked first, you have to go back to the time when Napoleon invaded Egypt and the battle of the pyramids where the Mumlacks got crushed by volley firing. Ever since that point, Islam has been on a decline and they are still trying to figure out why.

I still challenge you to point to the historical instance where they were physically attacked and I do not mean some globalization theory where they are pissed that MacDonalds and Walmart have invaded.

Islam has a lot of followers, because back in their glory days, they instituted numerous jihad's and expanded tremendously. If you live in an Islamic state and are not a Muslim, you have to pay the jizyah. This is a poll tax. When Islam was in its glory days, it was an economical choice to convert to Islam as extreme wealth was flowing in from the conquests and people could avoid the poll tax.

The thing about Islams laws is that they are there to enfore virtue. The only problem is that there can be no virtue, no good or evil when their is not free choice first. Religious police patrol the cities to, forgive the joke, make sure that everything is kosher.

I am not sure about what your concept of prostitution laws in America are, but I am pretty sure that with the exception of most parts of Nevada, prostitution is illegal. I do not see prostitution as being disrespectful against women. It is their body, and if they want to make money by servicing strangers, go right ahead.

The Shia form of Islam also has a clase to allow prostitution. It is not called this, because it is the ability to engage in a contractual temporary marriage. What this effectively means is that I can go up to a woman, ask her is she will be my wife for two hours, she agrees, we agree on the sum of money to exchange and then we can proceeded to consumate our vows.

Islam also tends to be masogonistic in nature. The veiling is an example of this as their is only one Koran passage relating to this practice, which is very weak. Another passage states that when talking to the wives of the prophets, you should do so from behind a screen.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
fox first of u seem to think that muslims are fighting the USA because they hate them for no reason,

---

I�m sorry, but I don�t believe that at all. And I don�t recognize myself having said anything like that. Could you perhaps post a quote of what you refer to.

quote:

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well let me educate u a bit about islam because the western media have affected ur brain

---

Oh, I see! Could you also give a short explanation of how you came to this conclusion about me.

quote:

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and it is a shame as i see that u r an intelligent person fighting for the wrong ppl.

---

Thank you! Then there is still hope.

No, I fight for freedom and democracy. My own and others�.

quote:

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as u may have noticed that the USA has been in a war "against terror" as u might like to call it to make ur self feel better about the inncocent ppl dying in the process.

---

I sometimes refer to it as a war on terror, because that is was it seems to be. More often I point out that it very likely is more than terror; a first wave of an Islamist war on the western world as a whole, and not only on USA.

No, it does NOT make me feel better about the innocent people dying in the process. And that includes, to me, also the ordinary soldiers on both sides. those who had no choice but to suffer and die in battle.

quote:

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Islam is a religion that has laws commanding every aspect of life including politics and economy, it is an ideology that challenges imperialism as it wants to free their ppl (the oppressed and if u want proof go visit the middle east) from american rule,

---

Yes, in fundamentalist interpretation Islam commands every aspect of life, politics and economy.

Fundamentalist Islam is therefore oppresive by definition. You even pointed it out yourself, in the quote above.

Even you can�t believe that the Middle East, as a whole, is under US American rule?!

quote:

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the americans love oil and as it happens, the muslims have most of the oil reserves. SO the USA has put a few 10's of thouands of men in different muslim countries just so that their companies can safely pump out the oil (stealing some in the process - did i say some? sorry i meant billions of dollars worth)

---

Can you give some examples of Muslim countries where USA has put a few of the few ten thousands of men?!

quote:

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and as u should recall (if u eva follow the news)

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Is this said by the same person who claimed that I had watched so much western news media that it had affected my brain?!

quote:

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anyway bak 2 islam- in PROPER islam u dont fight unless u r attaked, and the muslims that attak america have been attaked but the attaks of the usa have been hidden by their media.

---

But as you know about the attacks, you can surely inform me, and everybody else here at totse, where and when this happened.

quote:

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PLZ and i say this again PLZ DO NOT CLASSIFY SADDAM AS A MUSLIM , he is a Fascist that thinks arabs r the master race (thus the reason he kills kurds)

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Funny you should say that. I was actually waiting for it. Because I happen to know that Saddam dislikes fundamentalist Islamists of the kind that you represent.

quote:

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and in islam there is NO racism, blacks have been freed in africa from slavery in all muslim nations almost 1600 years ago when islam emerged.

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The Quran may forbid it, and so does (modern interpretations) of the Bible. In reality there is racism everywhere, and therefore also in Muslim countries.

On top of that, fundamentalist Islam has laws that are similar to racism, and as dispicable as racism. Like no rights what so ever for women.


To all other readers of this post, please note that what follows is a threat, and not only a statement:

quote:

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SO if the USA truly wants the world 2 be peaceful and doesnt want terror in the world then they should get out of foreign countries and should stop supporting the zionists in israel and if they dont then it means that if they strike a muslim nation they should expect attaks like sep 11 in the future as this is a war they r in so they shouldnt be surprised that the "good" usa got attaked by "evil" musims.

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I have slowly come to understand that I�m adressing, not some kind of al Quaida apologist, but a true fundamentalist Islamist. And propagandist!

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1-islam never strikes first
2-islam is against oppression and racism
Laters

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Yes, that is true about Islam, but the fundamentalist interpretation IS, by your own definition, opression. And it�s treatment of humans in general and women in particular, equals racism.

FoxLeonard

THANK U NUKE CHILD, u just said something that made sense (i dont agree with all of it though) ...
this is exactly wat i meant by prostitution it is accepted in las vegas and nevada as u said, and temp marriage is more of u give money and u have sex thats basically prostitution, u r basically married for a certain amount of time rather than foreva-and its hardly practised these dayz anyway.

Islam spread very rapidly at that time because it sympathised with christians and jews and abolished slavery of all kinds. and today it is the fastest growing religion(dont ask me why).
I dont want to get in laws of islam as i am not knowledgable enough about them, but when u get attacked u attak bak, this is a basic law and a basic human right its called "self defence"

The 1st time Arabs/muslims/middle easterns got attacked physically was by the british after ww1, and they fought and in the end the british got out as they needed to keep their empire since they were gettin 2 weak.So they gave the arab lands to ppl they thought would keep their interests for them and they drew up al the borders as arabia was usually unified-this is y many arabs resent the western governments because they divided them up.

secondly they got attacked when the jews started migrating ILLEGALY into palestine , palstine was populated by arabs, and u an read in all types of books about zionist terrorist groups at that time (yes they started it 1st).

The united states took the role of the UK as the superpower and backed the israelis by supplying them wit huge ammounts of weaponry and training and alot of money as they r doing now and tht was more than 50 years ago, without the USA israel would have never survived as they would have been wiped out by the palestinians and all these problems would not even be there.

also there is a large military presence of the forces of the united states in many of the countries in the middle east (u can go read time magazine for the proof)This annoys and angers the arabs/muslims coz they see it as the united states invading their territory (how would the USA feel if Russia put forces in the US?).
so this is basically invading and occupying territories of the arabs and thsi is the reason y binladen attaked(and hes a bit of a loon)

Laters

quote:

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Originally posted by NukeChild:
FoxLeonard is now added to my list of personal heros. Very good posts.

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Thank�s! I�m honoured!

(a fox blushing with pride behind red fur)

Not least because it comes from someone that I came to respect from his very first post. And have come to respect even more since then.

FoxLeonard

http://www.malcolm- x.org/docs/lettermakkah.htm
this is a site that shows that islam is not like christianity and all muslims regad eachother as brothers, if u admire malcolm x then this is a letter by him when he was in mecca.


fox i think u misunderstood me when i said the oppressed ppl in the middle east- no middle eastern country is ruling with islam (except iran, the ppl voted for the islamic system and revolted for it against their oppressive shah)
so the lack of islam is the rason why they r opressed not islam itself, this is y many ppl r fighting for islam (men and women) in countries like turkey and morroco.
Islam is not about how u dress the dresses r actually part of national and cultural customs not religiuos (notice how many women still wear their veils in afghanistan even after the taliban left?) and many women CHOOSE to wear their veils even when they r in western countries and they see it as a way to feel more comfortable- u would never understand this unless u were a muslim ur self so i will not persue this matter further.
By the way i dont agree with the talibans version of islam, and dont presume i threatened the usa i just pointed out my opinion that they might get attaked as further attaks on arabs would only anger terror groups further.


LAters

i am not going to lie, i cant really say that i believe in Media influencing people, i just need to see where you people stand on a fact like this,and i had to make my return post a thought provoker. i think that it is wonderful that you all worked together to find a tenuous link to the WTC.

The only reason that i can not vouch for this being possible is that i know USA is so full of Hatred for its fellow man that they could never actually collaborate for a scheme like this. The real question is, if they could, would you realise it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
buthraxx i bet u r a retard who doesnt know anything that is happening in this world-I NEVER SAID SADDAM WAS INNOCENT I HATE HIS ASS..and many ppl think automatically that hes a muslim because he lives in the middle east (as they r mostly muslims) .
As i mentioned before, the muslims were attacked first u monkey, thats why they attacked america, im not saying what they did was right but they had their reasons.
butthrax even when ur friends put up a decent argument u tend to kill it because of ur stupidity.

Im not going to explain the principles of islam but i have read about it and it seems 2 have a lot of merit 2 it, If it sucked like u say then why does it have 1 billion followers?????? So what if it has laws in every area of life it doesnt mean u cant give ur opinion or live freely, it gives u guidelines in life like u cant steal or kill or wateva , so r u sayin because it has different laws 2 ur laws it is a denial of ppl's freedom? UR THE JOKE MATE,the USA has laws about almost everything as well but they tend to be different like u can have prostitutes in the USA while in islam that is prohibited (they respect woman more), as i cannot tell u everything about islam maybe u should go to elementary school and learn 2 read and then why dont u go read a few books and then come back coz honestly ur ignorance makes me sick...

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No, you are the retard, i have to school myself in retarded english just to read your fucking poorly written posts.

I remember FoxLeonard asking for evidence about the muslims striking first, yet you still haven't provided any.

So obviously, it seems that you haven't got a case to argue on.

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like u can have prostitutes in the USA while in islam that is prohibited (they respect woman more)

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So prositution is not allowed, but the dedgrading of women to below men is acceptable? The USA and other wetern countries got over that years ago.

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also there is a large military presence of the forces of the united states in many of the countries in the middle east (u can go read time magazine for the proof)This annoys and angers the arabs/muslims coz they see it as the united states invading their territory (how would the USA feel if Russia put forces in the US?).
so this is basically invading and occupying territories of the arabs and thsi is the reason y binladen attaked(and hes a bit of a loon)

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Which those countries wanted there. Yeah it may piss them off, but they need to take it up with their governments, not attack americans because of it.

If the amercians were stationed in someones country without their permission then i'd understand your point, but they aren't.

Blue-Rock,

I noticed that you know how to use the Shift key to form capital letters in your screen name. Try using it to form capital letters in your post, it makes it easier for me to take you seriously. Right now you're coming across as a middle-school moron.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
as u may have noticed that the USA has been in a war "against terror" as u might like to call it to make ur self feel better about the inncocent ppl dying in the process.

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I suppose the people on 11 Sept/the US Embassies/ The USS Cole/et al were not innocent.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
The USA after overcoming the communist threats from the soviet union have turned to fight another ideology that challenges their greedy imperialistc policies, Islam.

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False. This is the UBL party line to rationalize his idiocy...and you're buying it. I suggest you start thinking for yourself.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
Islam is a religion that has laws commanding every aspect of life including politics and economy

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True.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
it is an ideology that challenges imperialism

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Give me a quote from the Quaran to prove that statement. Imperialism is a 19th century word that did exist when Gabriel was talking to Mohammed. Happy hunting.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
as it wants to free their ppl (the oppressed and if u want proof go visit the middle east) from american rule

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And just exactly which piece of Middle Eastern land does America rule?

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
the americans love oil

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As does the rest of the 'motorized' world. Outside of making an inane statement, what is your point?

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
SO the USA has put a few 10's of thouands of men in different muslim countries just so that their companies can safely pump out the oil

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False. Oil was being pumped long before US military forces arrived. Suggest you ask someone other than UBL why US forces are in the region...perhaps the Kuwati's for a start.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
(stealing some in the process - did i say some? sorry i meant billions of dollars worth)

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Prove it. If the oil is being stolen, it sure speaks highly of the local government and its governmental inspectors et al.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
(if u eva follow the news)

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I do. And unlike you, my source of the news is not limited to al-Jazeera.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
the ppl of saudia arabia have killed american soldiers as they dont want them there, but the government (USA puppets) wants them there so they can keep sucking up 2 america.

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Again I suggest you look at the news. The Saudi Government supports terrorists (the telethon) and hate-America schools. By the way: What is the Islamic sect of the Saudi Royal Family?

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
anyway bak 2 islam- in PROPER islam u dont fight unless u r attaked

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Finally you have made an intelligent and correct statement (besides proving again that you do know where the Shift key is). PROPER (and that is the operative word) Islam is as described. You can hardly accuse UBL et al of being PROPER.

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
and the muslims that attak america have been attaked but the attaks of the usa have been hidden by their media.

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Prove it!

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
PLZ and i say this again PLZ DO NOT CLASSIFY SADDAM AS A MUSLIM

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Silly me. I guess my lying eyes have deceived me again. Boy, I'm going to have to learn that when I see the pictures of good ol' Saddam on his prayer rug facing Mecca (also shown on al-Jazeera), that he is praying to none other than YHWH.

*Nox pukes at the idiocy of this statement*

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
NO racism, blacks have been freed in africa from slavery in all muslim nations almost 1600 years ago when islam emerged.

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Ever heard of The Sudan? Suggest again that you start following the news. By the way, it is the Christian Sudanese who are being made slaves to the 'slavery free' MUSLIMS.

*Now Nox is barfed out and beginning dry heaves*

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
1-islam never strikes first

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Get out a history book moron. Or better yet, explain to uneducated Nox about the 'Jihads' declared by both Iraq and Iran in their recent war.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue-Rock:
2-islam is against oppression and racism

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The fact that you didn't capitalize the I in Islam is an offense to Islam (but that's between you and Allah- myself, I'm laughing at you). And to use your word: PROPER, this is correct. Unfortunately for you, your UBL version of Islam 'inhales abruptly'.

In the future, I suggest you re-read your drivel before you post it. This crap makes you look idiotic. Check your facts.


Fox,

I know this post was directed at you. I hope I didn't offend you by hopping on this. My gag reflex overwhelmed my brain.

Nox

Temporary marriages are practiced all the time in Iran. It is one of the reasons why the Sunnis hate the Shia.

Islam did not abolish slavery. Slavery is permitted in the Koran. The only positive line is that it is virtuous to free your slaves. It is not required.

If you only want to look at the 20th century, then the first time Islam was attacked was DURING WWI when the Ottoman empire lost. It is also important to note that the Ottomon Caliph issued a fatwa declaring a jihad against all those who were attacking Germany. The people hated the idea and there were revolts, this is also the area of history Lawrence of Arabia steps in. After the the Ottomans lost, they said to hell with the empire and instead concentrated on developing Turkey. They instituted a secular government and forbade women from wearing the veils in public. A recent turkish woman politician was thrown out of her seat for wearing a veil to a "congressional meeting." When the Ottoman Empire disolved, the shit kinda hit the fan.

Islam has always had a problem with the violence of the extremeist. To ensure their rule, the rulers had to be purity incarnate or the extremists would violently uprise and kill them. The government therefore has to violently enfore religious laws as if they do not, it is seen as a lack of purity and therefore sets them up for assassination.

The veils are a special case, as it is also part of a status symbol. At one point veiling was fashonalbe among the rich. It was a way of saying to the world that our women are too beautiful for the common folk to look at. The poor started aping the rich. It is also worthwhile to note that the veil offers annonymity, as nothing is more embarassing than admitting how poor you are by being seen carrying your own water. Manual labor has a mark of shame to it as if you are doing it, obviously you are too poor to afford to hire servants. This explains a bit of the veil mystery.

I think I will end it here as their is a lot to mentaly digest.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nox:

Fox,

I know this post was directed at you. I hope I didn't offend you by hopping on this. My gag reflex overwhelmed my brain.

Nox

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Nox!

Be my guest, if that�s the right term for attending a funeral. I already had a go at it, at page 1, and there is still one left.

And piggarro99�s disclaimer, not to forget. I thought he was overdoing it, until Blue-Stones, sorry, I meant ChuckRock, came to his support...

Right now I need to stroll over to the peaceful community where Gods beat each other. Hopefully I will find some one-liners by VeneFrigus to ponder, among other things...

FoxLeonard