the following is from http://www.boortz.com from Neal Boortz;

your thoughts...


"HAVE YOU HEARD OF THE �INFORMATION AWARENESS OFFICE?�
I mentioned this a few times earlier this week � no bites. Maybe it�s time to give you some more information.

There is a plan being hatched inside the Pentagon to create an incredibly broad database on each and every American citizen. We now have computers that are capable of processing billions of bits of information every second. With this type of capability there is really no limit to the amount of information that the Imperial Federal Government can amass and analyze on each and every American citizen.

William Safire has written an amazing New York Times column about this proposed information database. The link is at the end of this bit. But let�s narrow this down a bit. If John Poindexter, the head of the Pentagon�s �Information Awareness Office,� gets his way his computers will have the following information ON YOU!

Every purchase you make with your credit card. What you bought, where you bought it, what you paid for it. This includes everything from condoms to gasoline.

Every magazine you subscribe to. So long Hustler.


Every prescription for medication you fill.



Every website you visit on your computer.


Every e-mail message you send and receive.


Every grade you receive from any education institution. This would obviously include what classes you�re taking.


Each and every ATM transaction you make. Where you were, when you were there, how much money you withdrew. Maybe even your picture to see who was standing next to you at the ATM.


Every time you get on a commercial airliner. Where you�re going and who is traveling with you (if you bought their ticket along with yours). This information could even include who sits next to you on that airplane.


Every time you travel through any toll gate on any toll highway in the country using one of those �fast pass� bar code stickers or transponders.


Every time you park in a parking garage where license numbers are recorded. When you got there, how long you were there, and when you left.


Every bank deposit and withdrawal you make, and every check you write.


Every time you use a credit card to eat out at a restaurant or visit a bar. This information could include what you ate, what you drank and how many guests you had with you.


Every call you make on a wireless phone. This could include where you were when you made the call. What time of day it was. Who you were calling and how long you talked. Ditto for incoming wireless phone calls.


Every call a nosy or vindictive neighbor makes about you to any law enforcement or government agency.


Every lawsuit or legal action, including divorces, you have had a part in.


Every book you check out of a library, how long you keep it, and when you turn it back in.


The title of every book purchased with a credit card and every book ordered over the Internet.


Every visit you make to a doctor or hospital.


Every time you use a credit card to fill your car. This would include time and place. The government could collate this data to figure out how many miles you drive your car between fillips. If you drive 500 miles a week, but you only live two miles from work � hmmmmmm.

OK. Enough. I could go on with this list for hours. For instance, with the advancement of facial mapping technology it is not inconceivable that the government could start maintaining a record of every time your particular unique face is scanned and recognized at a public place.

Right now this idea is being pushed by one man. His name is John Poindexter. He was Reagan�s National Security Advisor. The question now is whether or not President Bush and/or the Congress will give Poindexter the leeway he wants to create this database. There�s a nagging little suspicion in me that there might not really be any way to stop him."


[This message has been edited by buttthrax (edited 11-16-2002).]

i bet the cia r readin wat we r sayin just 2 make sure we aint no binladen supporters...ur thoughts

quote:

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Originally posted by buttthrax:
There�s a nagging little suspicion in me that there might not really be any way to stop him."

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I hope you're wrong. I believe in security, this is "Big Brother".

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by Nox:
I hope you're wrong. I believe in security, this is "Big Brother".

Nox

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Bear in mind that I didnt write the post.

The technology is here, but if people dont know, then it could happen almost overnight.

To be honest, why should i care?

My parent done all that for 16 years of my life, why should it be such a problem now?

quote:

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Originally posted by preying mantis:
To be honest, why should i care?

My parent done all that for 16 years of my life, why should it be such a problem now?

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preying mantis!

Freedom may be given from God, but individual and political freedom, in a society, have to be constantly fought for.

I take your statement to mean that you�re 16 years old (correct me if I�m wrong). Your totse "passport" doesn�t say where you�re from, but I guess from somewhere in the western world. If so, you were born into a society that has started to take democracy for granted; especially the parts of democracy that is supposed to guarantee personal freedom, our right to integrity and free speech. Fundaments, but only about 200 years old (at best) in practice.

In a democracy we, the people, "employ" the politicians to run things for us. In essence to take care of us, including to protect us. They employ experts to sort out the praticalities.

When the world seemingly has come to a point when better protection is needed, and this coincides with the dawn of a technology that allows for better control than ever, it is not so strange if they want to use this technology for protection. We don�t need to seek an evil conspiracy behind it all.

But if the politicians put in practice what is described above, they take away parts of the fundaments we have elected them to protect. When we see that risk, it is our privilege in a democracy to be able to do something about it. In practice this privilege is an obligation, towards ourselves and each other (including the politicians et al, who are on their way to overdo it).

To come back to your post: the fact that you are already here at totse, taking part in discussions about politics, shows that you DO care, contrary to what you claim.

FoxLeonard

Majority is 16 in the UK, I think.

I too have heard about this proposition. This infringes on my right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". I would also say it is unreasonable search and seizure. Rather than preventing attacks against America, it will actually turn the American people against the government, possibly even lead to a revolution. Luckily the Republicans are in charge so this has no chance of happening. Hopefully the Supreme Court will have the brains to declare any proposition like this unconstitutional.

All this data already exists in computer databases which the government can access.

All this proposal is doing is streamlining the process.

quote:

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Originally posted by FuckOffandDie:
All this data already exists in computer databases which the government can access.

All this proposal is doing is streamlining the process.

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No. The government can, at this point, seek said information for an investigation. This horrific proposal would mechanize the informaiton. One little change in your habits could put a red flag on your profile and spark a little investigation.

This data is not complied and is not in any government database as of yet.

This shit would infringe on all rights. Forget freedom of speech, especially on the internet. The government will have all the guns you possess on file along with when you bought them, how you bought them, and where you bought them. You can go ahead and put the 4th amendment into history books, people. Due process, HA!

Why is nobody totally enraged? It is because this seems to unreal to ever happen? It is because your rage rendered you speechless?

There are many people in this country all too willing to give up their rights. Something like this is a clear and present danger to freedom. John Poindexter is a traitor to this nation.

Sorry, Heres the NYTimes link:

"You Are a Suspect"
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/opinion/14SAFI.html?ex=1037854800&en=3778829e1bec3dc2&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

buttthrax!

If you didn�t realize from reading my first post (assuming you read it at all), I want to point out that you have my full support, in your views as well as in your campaign.

To some extent I also share your surprise that this thread isn�t 2 pages long already. In another perspective there is not so much to discuss. Let us hope that more people read and understand, than those who post to say so. Let us also hope that they try to make their voices heard in reality, loud enough for the politicians to take notice.

I can tell you that they are at it here in Europe as well. They talk about a huge data base for the whole union. Predominantly to be used by the police, so it�s somewhat more limited in its grasp. But it�s still a much too wide grasp, especially as it is supposed be used in advance, and not as part of investigations; i.e. they record and keep everything, if it will ever be needed in an investigation. That is, among other things, to make everyone a suspect, without any kind of evidence (for obvious reasons). It is also, of course, a violation of integrity. Something that doesn�t belong in a democracy (or a union of democracies).

Luckily enough there are already protests, from "left, right and center", both from politicians and others (myself included).

So, my fellow Europeans, here at totse: If you by chance have read this far, I want to point out that this is a concern for us as well. Or, we have our own version of it, to fight off...

FoxLeonard

I thought Freedom of Speech had to do with being able to say things...

"Why is nobody totally enraged?" (buttthrax)
I'm totally enraged.
The government allready takes our rights at every turn because of "terrorism" or, in the case of media, to "protect the children."
This is one more sign that the united states is a worthless hole filled with people who want martial law, or worse.
I do not have any respect for this country.
I do not think there is any way to stop this, or the next thing.
As long as anything has an "anti-terrorism" label on it, the american people are just dumb enough to pass it through.

Polititians are gaining too much power because the american people are too stupid.

Homer

quote:

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Originally posted by HomerJay603:

As long as anything has an "anti-terrorism" label on it, the american people are just dumb enough to pass it through.

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American people? You mean the American politicians, right? Well, right now the Republicans are in control of the U.S. government, so it will not pass in the following two years. And although it would have the anti-terrorism label, it directly contradicts the Republican Party platform. So, until the Dems take control of the government we will have no Information Awareness Office.

quote:

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Originally posted by jsaxton14:
American people? You mean the American politicians, right? Well, right now the Republicans are in control of the U.S. government, so it will not pass in the following two years. And although it would have the anti-terrorism label, it directly contradicts the Republican Party platform. So, until the Dems take control of the government we will have no Information Awareness Office.

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The rep. party platform will mean nothing.
You are a loser.
Until you get me some actuall evidence, go to hell. The Reps are just as imperical and stupid as the Dems.

Bite my ass

Homer

Ok, Ok.

Freedom of speech will be infringed because you will be scared of what you say on the phone and internet. The internet would be a big part of this. On your profile would be all calls you make and internet sites you visit. This could make you afraid to post something critical of their bullshit polices.

2nd, there already is an Information Awareness Office, headed by John Poindexter. Poindexter wants this to pass so he can have tons of power. He wants this proposal, which is apparently in the current version of the Homeland Security Bill. It must be amended by the Senate, and quick! I have read up more since my original post.

Another thing, remember the horrific "Operation TIPS" program? The Homeland Security Bill has a line that would outlaw TIPS. That's about the only good thing.

I apologize for underestimating your anger.

quote:

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Originally posted by HomerJay603:
The rep. party platform will mean nothing.

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Actually, it will. You probably have never heard of the concept of partisan politics. No Republican WILL ever propose such an office because it directly contradicts their PARTY PLATFORM!!! This infringes upon the personal freedoms of all Americans and also arguably infringes upon our Constitutional rights. Therefore a democrat, probably somebody as liberal as Al Gore, will propose it. The Republicans will make the arguements I just made and will shoot it down, despite the anti-terrorism label. We would be giving into terrorists, and the Republicans are wise enough to realize this. Therefore, the Republican party platform does mean something.

quote:

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Originally posted by HomerJay603:
Until you get me some actuall evidence, go to hell.

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Hehe, this shows your lack of intellect. If you would have been familiar with the Republican party platform you would have realized that this is a form of evidence. Telling me to go to hell because you couldn't realize this is just hilarious. I would point out your spelling error and comma splice, but I am not going to pull a Nox.

quote:

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Originally posted by HomerJay603:
The Reps are just as imperical and stupid as the Dems.

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Not quite as much, and like you did, I will ask for some proof.

quote:

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Originally posted by HomerJay603:
Bite my ass

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NO!

quote:

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Originally posted by HomerJay603:
You are a loser

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That adds to the pointlessness and stupidity of your post.

Well that is my two cents.

What I meant was that no republican is obliged to follow the platform of the party, and the way I forsee it, they won't.

Although not official, a plank in the rep. platform since 9-11 has been to do almost anything that would stop terrorism. We see that in the patriot act, we see that in the war against Iraq.

If this resolution has a good enough anti-terrorism label, it will pass through congress with little opposition.

Homer

[This message has been edited by HomerJay603 (edited 11-17-2002).]

Haha foxleonard, no i'm 22, but the moment i got freedom from my parents was when i was 16. And i come from Britain.

And it was a joke, of course i care about it.

Whether we like it or not, the government will collate the information already available to them. I'd be surprised if various security organisations don't already have such databases covering a vast number of "suspects", some with no real reason to be investigated.

The only real danger is if this data is combined with legislation allowing terrorist "suspects" to be detained without charge, and people are imprisoned because the database misinterprets their behaviour.

quote:

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Originally posted by preying mantis:
Haha foxleonard, no i'm 22, but the moment i got freedom from my parents was when i was 16.

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Yes, that�s more or less the age I have come up with, judging from your posts. And as much as your statement about age could be misunderstood, I took it to be as you now say. But I choose to misunderstand it, as I also choose to misunderstand your claim that you didn�t care. Because it happened to inspire me to write the sermon that followed. I have seen enough posts from you to know that you care. It shows, I can assure you!

FoxLeonard

I'm glad it helped inspire you

Fuck it. I am moving to a third world country where no goverment has no chance of surviving.

Or find a way to get a new space program going and find a way to get a country out of the reach of earth.

Or at least SOMETHING.

quote:

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Originally posted by jsaxton14:
I would point out your spelling error and comma splice, but I am not going to pull a Nox.

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Nox is so proud of your restraint. Keep on "restraining".

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by Nox:
Nox is so proud of your restraint. Keep on "restraining".

Nox

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You know nox, it is gramatically incorrect to refer to oneself in the 3rd person.
Just a thought...

Homer

Bob Dole did it.

*Nox stomps feet*

*Tries to be like the big kids*

*Gets shot down*

*Cries*

*Vows to get even*

*Doesn't know how*

*Gets tired of typing*

*Quits*

Nox

lol

Dammit!

Lets just hope that this crap never takes effect. That may be all we can do.

The Homeland Security Bill is a joke. They are moving the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms to the Justice Department from the Treasury. Why? The ATF is nothing but a tax enforcement agency. It blows my mind that they are given the job of investigating explosions.

And Bill O-fucking-'Reilly today! My gawd! This man is sooo anti-American, I swear. He actually wants the new system to take place! He actually said "If you love your country and listen to talk radio, you'll have nothing to worry about...but if you call the show and (say something I don't agree with)we'll give your name to John Poindexter". He took a caller who said, "I am willing to give up my rights to a certain degree..." and Mr. O'Reilly led the caller to believe that this was a good viewpoint and comforted him in his position!

O'Reilly went on to say that the Constitution should be amended to allow this kind of government intrusion. He said that, since the internet was not around when the Constitution was drafted, we should ignore the Constitution! Jesus-fucking-christ! How many people have this mentality. Thomas Jefferson would love the fucking internet. Your freely spoken speech is broadcast world-fucking-wide!

So. The picture is very clear now. This plan is all about making anybody who disagrees with certain policies disappear. This plan is aimed at "re-defining" free-speech. This plan is aimed at places like totse!

This is assualt! What the hell will happen in this country? Will the people just take this shit? Why do people not seem to care? Why dont my friends give a shit?

Those who express political views that are not popular are the ones who should give a shit. I am a libertarian. I disagree with a lot of bullshit policies. I view and post on questionable websites. Does this mean that I will be subject to John Poindexter's cronies' investigation? Will it raise their eyebrows when they see that I donated to the Marijuana Policy Project? Will FBI agents spy on me for simply making this post? I am not a criminal.

[This message has been edited by buttthrax (edited 11-19-2002).]

Sorry, this passed and is happening.

Notice that nobody talked about this till it happened.

Fuck you Poindexter!

Fuck you Ashcroft!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by buttthrax (edited 11-21-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by buttthrax:
Apparently, people who are still talking about this are talking out their ass. The White House is saying their will be no new domestic surveillance agency. (Sigh) I hope they stick to this.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20021116/D7NBBT7O0.html

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They won't.
I can gaurantee you that allready the process has been started to build and to fund this bullshit.
I can not gaurantee that the agency will be known to all, or to any.

And as far as bill oreilly, that guy has lost all respect from me. I used to watch his show (and still do), but ever since 9-11 and that rillia willson person, Oreilly has become more and more insane.

Homer

Sorry dude. I was wrong. It was soooooo wrong. Deleting previous post. John Ashcroft confirmed that this shit is happening.