A year ago, I was sitting in my advanced placement united states history class, and a man carrying a large stack of green books and said "A couple of planes crashed into the world trade center." He seemed relitively calm, and so from that I thought it was probibly a caravan of cesnas, and 4 or 5 people died.
I watched dumbfounded as CNN replayed footage of a passenger jet crashing into the WTC and live footage of a tall smoking tower.
The most predominant thoughts in my mind were "why" and "who."
To this day, I am still unsure as to the question that next ran through my mind

"Did we deserve this?"

Homer

It all depends on who you ask. If you ask some guy from the Middle East he will tell you that American Capitalism has declared war on Islam and must be destroyed. If you ask an American, they will tell you that these towel heads are nuts. I personally think that if the middle east doesn't want anything to do with the US, then it would be ethical to have American corporations stop targeting peaceful Middle Eastern nations. So what America has done on the economic front is wrong.
On the military front, I would have to support the actions of the US. Other nations accuse the US of policing the world. Well, they are right. The US goes into many nations, which in their eyes is an infringement upon their status as an independent nation. What they fail to realize is that the crazed dictator in charge has been plotting the destruction of the US. Therefore, going into these countries is simply a way to make sure that these tyrants cannot harm us. In short, we wouldn't be in there if they had legitamate governments that were not a threat to the US we would not be in there.

Back to the main question, I think that the US has not been perfect, but nobody is. Our treatment of the middle east, especially on the economic front, is not justifiable. However, Al Qaida(?) cannot justify the murder of over 3000 innocent civilians because of this, no matter how hard they try. Therefore, America did not deserve this.

No analysis of the situation would be accurate without discussing the Zionist-American alliance.

"They (Americans) have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, ... it is Israel inside America. Take the sensitive ministries such as the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense and the CIA, you will find that the Jews have the upper hand in them. They make use of America to further their plans for the world ..."

For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been (by the Jews) slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed�This is my message to the American people: to look for a serious government that looks out for their interests and does not attack other people�s lands, or other people's honor." - Bin Laden

No, USA did not deserve the 9/11 attacks! Not as a people. Not as a state. Not as a government. Not because of USA�s political and economical power in the world. Not because of USA�s actions around the world, including those actions that are questionable, or simply wrong.

And assuming that Bin Laden et al were behind the attack, it was a part of the Islamist International�s perverted version of Jihad, If so, it was not some kind of "revenge". It was a symbolic action of terror war, meant to scare the whole western and "infidel" world.

As USA has become the symbol of the western world, and therefore also has been used in Jihadist propaganda, USA was the natural target, and within USA: the World Trade Center (symbolising economical power) and the Pentagon( symbolising military power), were the best symbolic targets, along with the White House and Capitol Hill (political power), where the fourth airplane probably was to supposed to crash. These targets are known all over the world, including what they stand for, and they are therefore perfect symbols.

All this had been the same, also if USA had stayed out of Afghanistan or the Middle East or any place. USA had still been the best target for a symbolic attack on the western infidel world, from the Islamist Jihadists.

And I can assure you that it worked. Since our Prime Minister Olof Palme was murdered I haven�t seen so many Swedes cry, because of a non-personal matter, as I saw when the news of 9/11 reached us; almost instantly.

There are also strong indications that USA wasn�t the only target. European security agencies claim to have found proof that similar actions were supposed to have happened here too. One airplane crashing in London or Paris, and one in Bruxelles, the EU capital city of sorts. The terrorists failed because the German authorities managed to tighten security on the airports within minutes after what happened in USA.

If this is true, it proves even more that USA has no "guilt" in this. It proves even more that it was an attack on the western infidel world as a whole.

Last but not least, I want to say that you, US Americans, have my deepest sympathies for what you have gone through, during and after the 9/11 attacks.

FoxLeonard

To be honest it hasn't affected me for the most part, and I am only about 2 hours away from NYC. The only thing that does bother me is the paranoia of everyone.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum8/HTML/000404.html

Fox,

Again a superior post. I don't remember hearing this:

quote:

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
There are also strong indications that USA wasn�t the only target. European security agencies claim to have found proof that similar actions were supposed to have happened here too. One airplane crashing in London or Paris, and one in Bruxelles, the EU capital city of sorts. The terrorists failed because the German authorities managed to tighten security on the airports within minutes after what happened in USA.

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Is there any more you can tell me than this?

Nox

The American people did not deserve what happened on 911. The American GOVERNMENT did indirectly cause it.

quote:

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
The American GOVERNMENT did indirectly cause it.

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Castro "indirectly" caused it too!

Mao "indirectly" caused it.

UNF "indirectly" caused it.

*Nox pukes at the stupidity of "indirectly"*

Nox

About "indirect" causes...

This so called Jihad (wich it isn�t) could perhaps have been prevented if the Roman Christian Church had stayed away from Jerusalem and the Middle East; i.e. no Crusades. That would also have caused a delay of Europes cultural recovery. The "dark ages" would have gone on for a hundred years or more than they did. But that�s (partly) another "indirect" cause of history as we have it...

This "Jihad" is basically a kind of revenge for the Crusades, and for the turn history took after the Crusades. Not that so many have been working on it ever since, but the religio-politic organisations who are behind it now - in modern times - see it that way. And if they had had it their way, this "Jihad" had started in the 1940ies or 1950ies. In a sense it did, but more with in-fighting between Islamist groups. Not even the founding of Israel was enough to unite them; at least not for very long.

The organisation that finally managed to partly unite them, originates from Sudan, and not from the Middle East. For them the problems of the Middle East are: First that the Big Mosque is in the wrong, if Moslems, hands; Second that the holy part of Jerusalem is in reality controlled by the Jews. Apart from that, and to one day make the Middle East into a Moslems only area, they really couldn�t care less. But that hasn�t stopped them from using the conflicts to their advantage and for their propaganda.

The bitter irony of it all is that Mohammed clearly says, in the Quran and quoted elsewhere, that the Jews and the Christians are exceptions from Jihad, "as we all believe in the same book"; the Old Testament of the Bible and the stories about Jesus as they were before the distortions were added by the Roman Christian Church.

Unfortunately it was The Roman Christian Church and the Kings of Europe who broke this "treatsie" first, with the Crusades. Therefore Saladins defence was justified, as was his and the Assassins collaborations with the Knights Templar. Using the help of the "infidels" (if that sounds familiar from modern times).

This does not really belong in this thread, but I couldn�t stop myself from writing it, beacause of a post above.

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-02-2002).]

Many years ago (About the early 90s I think), Osama Bin Laden began as a very peaceful campaigner against US occupation in Saudi Arabia, he and many others found your presence insulting, as do many now. You were no longer required, and you were disrespectful of Arabians (Sand niggers, and Rag heads were just two of the derogitary terms used by the US military at the time), plus your pillagery of the land caused the economy to suffer. So you may see that your troops were unwelcome guests.

Osama Bin Laden protested against this, first by partaking in peaceful protests GreenPeace style, and eventually upgraded to polite letters which were repeatedly ignored, Americans dismissed him as stupid , insignificant, ungrateful, and sub-human (those who had heard of him). The letters gradually got more urgent and more threatening, but the response was still absent. By the early-mid nineties, he began threatening acts of terror, and when THEY were ignored, he began his acts of terror. (it is at this point where negotiations had ceased to be possible) These were all fairly minor to begin with and eventually progressed to attacking the WTC in 1996 (now you see in N Ireland, UK started to listen at this point and the terrorism did not progress any further, and may soon end). Unlike UK, the US did not take actions to negotiate but simply said they wanted OBL dead, which never happened. Eventually 9-11 happened, and we all know how USA reacted.

If the USA had begun to negotiate before it was too late, 9-11 would never have happened, in fact the 1st attack probably wouldn't have either. But USA is determined to appear strong and tough and will never negotiate with ... anyone, so it was neccessary to bring US down a peg or two, US needs to realise that it will never defeat terrorism, and only by negotiation can terrorism be removed.

"If you don't like flies, drain the swamp"

War on Terrorism is just more swamp

quote:

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Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Many years ago (About the early 90s I think), Osama Bin Laden began as a very peaceful campaigner against US occupation in Saudi Arabia, he and many others found your presence insulting, as do many now.

Osama Bin Laden protested against this, first by partaking in peaceful protests GreenPeace style, and eventually upgraded to polite letters which were repeatedly ignored, Americans dismissed him as stupid , insignificant, ungrateful, and sub-human (those who had heard of him). The letters gradually got more urgent and more threatening, but the response was still absent. By the early-mid nineties, he began threatening acts of terror, and when THEY were ignored, he began his acts of terror. (it is at this point where negotiations had ceased to be possible) These were all fairly minor to begin with and eventually progressed to attacking the WTC in 1996 (

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Within a few days after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, in 1979, Usama bin Laden, who was genuinely and selflessly committed to the cause of all-Islamic solidarity, went to Pakistan to assist the Afghan mujahideen (holy soldiers).

Bin ladens early Afghan years brought him into contact with Sheikh AbdAllah Yssuf Azzam, who was key in establishing what is today the International Legion of Islam - the highly proficient and dedicated hard core of international Islamist terrorism. In Peshawar, Sheikh Azzam founded the Bait-ul-Ansar, wich trained the first Inslamist volounteers to participate in the Afghan Jihad. In this context bin Laden was integrated into the Islamist international system and became one of Azzam�s closest disciples.

Bin Laden had money, knowledge, and enthusiasm and implemented Azzam�s ideas. Azzam and bin Laden established the Maktab-alKhidamat (the Mujahideen Service Bureau), wich bin Laden transformed into an international network that sought out Islamists with special knowledge, from medical doctors and engineers to terrorists and drug smugglers, and recruited them for service in Afghanistan. By the late 1980ies bin Laden would have branches and recriutment centers in fifty countries, including the United States, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and some Western European countries.

...fast forward...

By the mid 1980ies, bin Laden saw that his real calling lay on the jihad battlefield, where he gained a reputation as a couragerous and resourceful commander. In 1986 he participated in the battle of Jalalabad in the ranks of the Arab mujahideen unit. That year he was also part of a small Arab force that held in Jaji against repeated assaults by a much larger DRA force supported by Soviet fire power...

Mujahideen who served with bin Laden described him as fearless and oblivious to danger. "He was a hero to us because he was always on the front line, always moving ahead of everyone else", recalled Hamza Muhammad, a Palestinian voluteer in Afghanistan.

From 1984 to 1988 bin Laden frequently accompanied Azzam on his trips to Afghanistan, where Azzam delivered fiery sermons to the mujahideen. Azzam�s message was straightforward, and the essence of his message can be found in bin Laden�s later call for global jihad.

Throughout the 1980ies bin Laden maintained close relations with the Saudi ruling elite and particularly Saudi intelligence.

In 1989 Osama bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia as a hero. He was a wiser man, hardened by experience. His political and social views, were more radical. many of the Arab "Afghans" he had helped in Afghanistan saw him as a leader. The Saudi government considered him a role model, proof of its contribution to the immensly popular Afghan jihad. the praise and media attention made bin Laden a sought after celebrity. He spoke at countless mosques and private gatherings.

Bin Laden described Islam�s great triumphs against the infidels superpower, arguing that the Afghan jihad demonstrated that nothing and nobody could stop the Muslim Nation once it was committed to the righteous practice of Islam.

Wich has brought us up to date, so we can better understand what ChuckStone has said in the first part of the quote above.

If anyone feels that it�s really needed, I could fill in what Chuck "missed" in the latter part also. But I can tell you in advance, it will be more of the same.

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-02-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nox:
Fox,
I don't remember hearing this:

Is there any more you can tell me than this?

Nox

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Nox

I have tried to search my analog archives, but all the clippings, notes and videotapes are still not listed properly, due to the sheer overload of news during and after 9/11 2001.

So I�ll try from memory...

Some weeks after the 9/11 attacks, the German and Belgian and/or French security agencies announced that there should have been plane-crasch attacks into the European Parliament building in Bruxelles, Belgium, and into a similarly symbolic target in London (the Parliament and Big Ben was mentioned) and/or in Paris.

The airplanes that should have been used were "domestic" European flights, and they should have been hi-jacked after take-off from one of the big airports in Germany.

The choice of German airports was - luckily - the terrorists� mistake. After the era of domestic German terror in the 1970ies, the German federal police and the German security agencies are the most effective in Europe, when it comes to quick hightening of security. A qualified guess is that they were at it even before there was a clear indication of a terror attack in USA. The security was tightened literally within minutes, and the hi-jackers never made an attempt. So they were not caught there and then.

But they belonged to a group that already were under routine surveilance, and when checking that material throughoutly the German authorities found the so called indications, that started the investigation.

At that time it was not said clearly, but if my memory from later news serves me right, they had picked up two or three guys soon after the first suspicions, and at least one of them had talked after a while. Since then I believe they have caught more of the suspects, but if they also have talked, I don�t know or don�t remeber.

I also believe that one of the terrorists caght in Germany, or elsewhere in Europe, is one of the more important informants about the attacks in USA.

It should be noted that as much as the first news of this might have looked like paranoia and/or propaganda, the follow-ups were exactly as hap-hazard and empty of real information as news from security agencies and similar sources usually is when it�s real. That�s also one reason that my memory of this is sketchy. I�m not sure the material I have on it says so much more.

... but if and when I find more, I�ll be back (as Arnold said...)

FoxLeonard

As always, THANK YOU Fox. The news outlets here were so overloaded at the time, that the European part of the story never got to me.

Nox

You know that because of the sanctions the US has on the Iraq, 4,000 children die each month. That's more than died in the WTC attacks. And do you really think sanctions would work on Iraq, Suddam, has no compassion for his people. So the US and UN are just killing thousands of innocent people....


I wonder why they hate us?

After reading through all the posts I have one question to ask: Did anyone challenge the information they received thru the media? Did anyone doubt the reasons behind all this?

quote:

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Originally posted by -_-OsiriS-_-:
You know that because of the sanctions the US has on the Iraq, 4,000 children die each month.

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Where did this information come from?

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
After reading through all the posts I have one question to ask: Did anyone challenge the information they received thru the media? Did anyone doubt the reasons behind all this?

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Very much so! Among other things I was in the "lucky" position to have studied this and related topics for a long time before the 9/11 attacks. This gave me a chance to continously compare the news and the simplifications and propaganda to the history as it was written before the turbulence began. I�ve also worked with television and with media critique and media analysis, wich means that I look through it, rather than at it.

If you have read my posts, and if you know what European and US media have been pumping out for most of the time, you have also seen that most of what I say doesn�t come from the ordinary (simplified) news, much less from the propaganda that has been made part of it.

FoxLeonard

quote:

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Originally posted by -_-OsiriS-_-:
You know that because of the sanctions the US has on the Iraq, 4,000 children die each month.

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This is an exaggeration, but that is beside the point. Truth is that a lot of children, and adults, die because of the UN - not US! - sanctions. The sanctions could and should have been changed, to avoid this.

But the one who is first and foremost responsible for the sanctions is Saddam Hussein. He could have ended the sanctions and saved thousands of lives of his people, by obeying the weapons inspectors, instead of literally playing cat and mouse.

Wich brings us to the next quote:

quote:

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And do you really think sanctions would work on Iraq, Suddam, has no compassion for his people.
I wonder why they hate us?

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This is the essence of the logics of a lot of the critique that concludes that USA are the culprits. It�s also, partly, the logics of OsiriS.

But I left out the line:

"So the US and UN are just killing thousands of innocent people..."

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 11-03-2002).]

to a point, you see america needs to realize that Countries like Israel go through something similar every day. Yet americans cheer palestinians on. We are on the reciving end of an attack, and we still cheer people like the palestinians on. Ironic is it not?

The people who cheer the palestinians on are a minority when compared to those who are in favor of Israel so it's not like it's the majority of Americans who support palestine.

quote:

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Originally posted by -_-OsiriS-_-:
You know that because of the sanctions the US has on the Iraq, 4,000 children die each month.

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Come on, be honest. Are you retarded?

America doesn't just cheer Israel on, it funds them.