i am opposed the methods of the chechen separatists, who had taken some 800 civilians hostage in a moscow theatre last week but, the homicidal measures employed by the russian government is not justified by the actions of the hostage-takers.

putin refused to negotiate to save the lives of the hostages and ordered the use of poisonous gas during the storming of the theartre last weekend by russian secret police. of the 53 hostage-takers, 50 were killed. many were executed as they lay slumped and defenceless in their seats, knocked unconscious by the gas.

an estimated 100 hostages have already died from the effects of exposure to the gas while The russian government still refuses to reveal the type of gas it used in the operation. eventhough doctors have made it clear that such information could have saved many lives and continues to be vital for the treatment of the large number of hostages who were seriously injured and remain hospitalized. some experts have concluded that the government is not prepared to concede that the special units used a nerve gas banned by international law, possibly the chemical poison 3 bz, or a gas related to the sarin type. both of which are banned by international treaty governing chemical weapons that russia signed in 97.

100 dead by nerve gas

or

800 dead because terrorists executed them one by one.

You pick.

Homer

You know you americans should shut up about Russia's mistakes, because you have made a lot of misakes too, but your media has a skill for covering up their mistakes and overstating our mistakes. So please, be informed or shut up.

Askr!

If you are really interested in this, go to the subject "Russian Hostages" by Boris, and read CAREFULLY, as most of what you say is already answered there.

And use the links posted by Atheist Mantis.

FoxLeonard

quote:

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Originally posted by HomerJay603:
100 dead by nerve gas

or

800 dead because terrorists executed them one by one.

You pick.

Homer

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Askr!

If you�re not that interested, this is a summary, that tell the WHOLE truth about the choice the Russian authorities had to make!

FoxLeonard

actually, the possible death toll is closer to 1200. the detonation of the explosives could kill the pedestrians on the street, the cars and the surroundig buildings would get severely damaged and with the presence of natural gas used for heating and cooking, it would kill the residents too.

What the hell good are hostages dead? They would not have killed 800 people for a very long time.

And why couldnt they just use notgoingtokilleveryone gas?

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
And why couldnt they just use notgoingtokilleveryone gas?

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It appears that they did. 3 Terrorists and roughly 700 innocents are alive.

I can't say as I am thrilled that gas was used. However, I am thrilled that the gas worked and the building wasn't blown up and hostages were saved. I am deeply saddened that I was correct when I said that innocents would die.

Nox

40 James Bonds with tranquilizers woulda solved this shit.

The rebels probably wouldn't have killed alot of people, and they definately wouldnt've if we actually negotiated with them. We could have worked out some sort of deal and ended the situation peacefully - or at least hold off killings until enough intelligence has been gathered about the theatre and the terrorists' tactics to stage some sort of covert op, Rainbow Six kind of shit.

I'd personally withdrawl Russiant troops from Chechnya... they are just as entitled to independence as the Ukraine and the other states of the former Soviet Union.

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
What the hell good are hostages dead?

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Yes, every single life is valuable. Also all those who were saved; more than 700 out of 850.

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They would not have killed 800 people for a very long time.

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If you were not in direct contact with the terrorist leader, during the night that led up to the attack, you can�t say this. I was not in contact with him, so I can�t refute it.

What I know is that the Russians up until then, had successfully negotiated in a way that freed a few hostages at the time. Had they believed this to be continously successfull I�m sure they would have waited with their attack.

As far as I understand the Russians also had indications that the terrorists were about to set their threat into action; killing one by one of the hostages until Russia withdrew their troops. A demand that I guess the terrorists knew wouldn�t be granted. If they planned to kill one hostage each hour, or each minute I don�t know. But one every hour had soon been bad enough.

There are also other time related factors to consider. The hostages had already been without food, and under severe stress, for 58 hours. Some already made successfull or almost suicidal attempts to escape.

quote:

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And why couldnt they just use notgoingtokilleveryone gas?

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Well they didn�t use killeveryone gas either, did they?!

Do you actually believe that the Russians have a 100% secure gas that still would have put everyone to sleep fast enough, and didn�t use it?!

Do you actually accuse the Russians of having killed 116 of the hostages intentionally?!

FoxLeonard

Uncl, you are entitled to be shot in the head.

If all the mexicans in California created their own state, you wouldn't say that they deserve independence. Oh, and please do not use the term 'rebels', because you didn't call the Al-Quaeda 'freedom fighters'.

I'd give the Mexicans independence, but of course all of SOuthern California rightfully belongs to Mexico.

The Chechnyans are completley different then AQ. Chechnya has it's own cutlure, and should be able to be an independent state. It was because of Soviet imperialism that it was annexed by Russia.

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:


The Chechnyans are completley different then AQ.

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Yes, but in this particular drama we can�t rule out that the hostage taking was initiated by Islamist terrorists, rather than by Chechnyans actually fighting for the freedom of their country (wich in itself is not what all Chechnyan "rebels" do, even if they claim so).

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Chechnya has it's own cutlure, and should be able to be an independent state.

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Yes, but now that has become more unlikely than a week ago.

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It was because of Soviet imperialism that it was annexed by Russia.

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The Russian army under the Tsar invaded Chechnya in the 1850ies after a long war, and Chechnya has been a part of Russia, the Soviet Union and Russia again, ever since.

FoxLeonard

quote:

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
You know you americans should shut up about Russia's mistakes, because you have made a lot of misakes too, but your media has a skill for covering up their mistakes and overstating our mistakes. So please, be informed or shut up.

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And the russian media provided a full acurate story to the russian public did it?

quote:

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
all of SOuthern California rightfully belongs to Mexico.

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Your home 'rightfully' belongs to the Native Americans. We went over this topic before and you haven't given it up yet. Don't give me that schtuff about your father's land coop again either.

Nox

I won't, but I've made enough of a case to jsutify my sympathy for the Chechnyan rebels. Plus, all of Russia isn't originally Chechnyan, only a Chechnya - where they maintain their own culture and their own dialect. If there was part of the country that was woods inhabited by Indians, but we technically owned it so we stationed our troops there, I'd expect them to get mad.

Thats not Southern California, which you are convinced is rightfully the property of Mexico.

Is Canada rightly the property of England too? What about us? We stole America from England through violence.

Didn't we purchase southern california from the Mexicans?

People need to stop whining about that bullshit. Does anyone think that countries and people who have been conquered in the path have had anywhere close to the say and privelege that the "native" Americans do? Think it would have done the natives of South and central america any good to whine when the conquistadores took over? Think they would have received tax free lifestyles and casinos? Uh, well you see my point.

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Originally posted by Sol463:
Didn't we purchase southern california from the Mexicans?

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Yes we did buy it. Franklin Pierce bought it and is known as the Gadsen Purchase.

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And the russian media provided a full acurate story to the russian public did it?

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Yes they did, because they are not controlled by the government, they are controlled by corporation with completely different interests and some are completely independent news services. In usa we see ABC, CNN and the rest chanting "Attack Iraq! Attack Iraq! Attack Iraq!", while in Russia every independent service has an objective point of view that is different from the others. Of course, an educated person has to compare the views and make his own opinion, while the american public has no opinions to analyze, they are fed the same crap throughout the media world.

The corrupt centralist government sold Southern California to us, without consent of the Mexican people.

American people broke away from the British. A few Mexican beaurocrats sold Mexico... there's a difference.

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Originally posted by YouAreNotYourKhakis:

Yes we did buy it. Franklin Pierce bought it and is known as the Gadsen Purchase.

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Not quite. The western end of the Gadsden Purchase (which was purchased in 1853) is east of California. That area was purchased so the Southern Pacific Railroad had some level ground to build on versus the more mountainous terrain to the north.

The part of California you are talking about came into the possession of the United States as part of the settlement (1848) of the War with Mexico which began in 1846.

Nox

Thanks Nox! Man, I wanted to put in the post that I was confused about the two events, but you got me. You're right; the even that sparked this was when the president at the time sent troops around the boarder and they were shot at. This was escalated through yellow journalism and the president urged the people into fighting the war, which resulted in getting more land. Thanks again!