They shouldn't have waited until the last moment.

First of all, do not read any American or any other western news, they are full of brainwash. If you want correct information, ask me and I'll translate some of the Russian publications on the net.

Second of all, they didn't wait until the last moment. There was a chance of a peaceful end. as soon as the bastards executed two hostages, the spetsnaz moved in through the underground walkways and prepared their weapons. They launched a tear gas grenade with a flash-concussion grenade. Then they used suppressed rifles/SMGs to kill the bastard women first to neutralize the explosives they were carrying. The bastard men were next. In the shootout they killed the leader and some of the hostages and captured the rest of the bastards.


there seem to be reports that the tear gas was too much.... can't confirm on that

They shouldn't have waited until they started executing people, I mean.

well, they did want to save as many people as possible... the execution was a message saying that there is no chance of peaceful negotiations.

PS: here are some links:
photos
the guns used to do the job

quote:

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
If you want correct information, ask me and I'll translate some of the Russian publications on the net.

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I'm asking. Unfortunately, I don't know which ones to ask for...help me out please.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
PS: here are some links:
photos
the guns used to do the job

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The article (in Russian) and the gun came up, the photos did not.

Nox

this is a translation of the link called "photos":
translation is flaky because I used an online translator.
--------
Storm of "NORTHEAST"

Over 750 are rescued, 67 hostages were lost

Operation on clearing hostages from the theatrical centre on Dubrovka(location) is completed. The Chechen terrorists are killed(exterminated) or arrested. Professional actions of special divisions(stepznaz) have rescued hundreds lifes. We grieve over lost innocent people...


Already it is known: operation was "----"(cannot translate). And though last night even last alcoholic in Dubrovka street spoke that "will take", plans such at special divisions were not. (not important)

- All of us do, as gangsters ask, - the representative of an operative staff explained me, - politicians want-, doctors of foreigners - please. If only to keep lives of people. Storm is risky withtoo many victims. We shall negotiate.

But... All has developed completely in another way.

Closer to morning terrorists have shot two hostages. Right before the eyes of th others. Severely. Cynically. Terribly. And hostages have not sustained. They have jerked from a hall. Terrorists have opened fire...

Now it is possible to restore a picture approximately. On perimeter of an assembly hall passes supervised women - kamikadze. Probably, they shot at the running hostages. Presumably, the explosive was placed on exits from a hall. On a stage there was a canister with gasoline.

Time for reflection - seconds. And for these seconds the decision on storm was accepted.

Spetsnaz soldiers operated immediately. They let the gas flow through the ventilation and started the storm.

Operation last 40 minutes, worked as pairs, the snipers have gone first. As our source, one of snipers has told, having rushed into a hall, an exact series of shots has killed four insurgents(terrorists, bastards, mofos, dickwads, you name it...). His surname for the clear reasons is not disclosed. As do not name a surname of the officer who has shot the leader. Why it was not audible sounds of shooting? Because shot from silent automatic devices Val . Shot, as a rule, in the head, being afraid, that the explosive on belts of insurgents will detonate. Terrorists had time to make some chaotic shots of a machine gun...

Spetsnaz operatives used explosives of low power of the directed action, made breaches in a wall and applied lulling(tear gas, sleepy gas) gas. The mood was to not take anybody from the terrorists in general alive, but nevertheless captured, they provide information.

No losses among spetsnaz operatives.

PS: the websites are slow because everyone wants to get the info

[This message has been edited by Atheist Mantis (edited 10-26-2002).]

As long as the Russians saw a possibility to save hostages, by getting a few at the time freed and by keeping the rest alive, they kept on negotiating, wich also geve them time to carefully plan and prepare the attack.

As soon as the terrorists put their threats into action and started killing hostages, the Spetznas forces attacked, without hesitance and with considerable little bloodshed.

A Swedish military expert, specialized in strategics and in Russia, said in an interview that the "time-window" was less than five minutes after the moment the terrorists started to kill hostages. Had the Russians hesitated, it would almost certainly have resulted in more bloodshed. Had they tried an attack before the killings of hostages started, the terrorists would have had a better chance to realize what was going on, and then put their ultimate threat into action. Now they were partly concentratet on killing hostages, and thereby, so to say, turning their backs towards the outside of the theatre. The expert who made this analysis that I try to qoute, is far from a Russian apologist I hasten to add.

More than 700 of the approximately 850 people that were held hostage are still alive. Some of them injured, others allegedly poisoned by the "sleep-gas" (nerve-gas). There�s a risk that the number of victims will grow, but not significantly.

The terrorists were effectively taken out before they could use even their "body-bombs", let alone any of the big ones that could have blown up all and everybody. The terrorists were not even given a chance to sacrifice themselves and in the same time kill all the hostages, to prove that they "mean business". That would have been half a victory for them, and even more than that for their "Jihadi Sponsors".

As far as I understand, the Russians, from Putin and all the way down, couldn�t have done a better job...

FoxLeonard

You know, it makes me sad that it takes a Russian and a Swedish guy to deliver the "unbranwashed" news to the Americans. Thanks FoxLeonard for making excellent and unbiased points.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
You know, it makes me sad that it takes a Russian and a Swedish guy to deliver the "unbranwashed" news to the Americans. Thanks FoxLeonard for making excellent and unbiased points.

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My thanks to both of you.

Nox

Atheist Mantis & Nox

Thanks!

And thanks to you Atheist Mantis for the minute by minute description of the attack. It verifies, and gets verified by, the military expert�s summary and detailed analysis that I refer to above.

FoxLeonard

quote:

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Originally posted by VeneFrigus:
They shouldn't have waited until they started executing people, I mean.

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fuck off cunt im reading russian news right now

Nox: http://www.themoscowtimes.ru/ It's in English. I read it every other day, usually.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
You know, it makes me sad that it takes a Russian and a Swedish guy to deliver the "unbranwashed" news to the Americans. Thanks FoxLeonard for making excellent and unbiased points.

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Yes thanks again....I hope to learn start learning russian for real in about a year...

Thanks malaria. I now have that as part of my 'Favorites' menu. I didn't know they had an English version (I should have).

Nox

I�m sad to say that one thing in my earlier post was premature:

About 200 of the hostages are still in critical condition becuse of the gas that was used by the Spetznas. So the number of victims CAN grow significantly.

117 are already dead. One killed by a bullet, all the others by the gas.

According to a Russian doctor they died because they were so weakened after 58 hours without food and under severe stress, that the gas became too much for them.

The gas is said to be an anasthetic gas, that normally is given in individual amounts and concentration, wich was not possible in the attack, of course. Nevertheless some critics already say that the Spetznas shouldn�t have used the gas; used too much, and/or didn�t consider that the hostages were in a weakened condition. The latter critique implies that they should have used less gas, or less concentrated gas.

Perhaps that had been possible. Knowing nothing about the gas I can�t argue with that.

But one fact remains true, whatever the critics say: the Spetznas HAD to take out the terrorists so fast that they didn�t get a chance to use the bombs, or to kill many more hostages by other means. The fact that ONE out of 117 victims was killed by a bullet, says a lot about how fast the Spetznas took control.

The number of victims can grow a lot, but the alternatives would almost certainly have caused even more deaths.

Unfortunately the Russian authorities stick to their habit of keeping as much as possible secret, to the Russian citizens, including relatives to the people in hospital, as well as to the outer world. This could of course mean that the situation is even worse. But it IS also a Russian "tradition" inherited from the Soviet authorities, so it doesn�t necessarily have to mean anything at all.

For claritys sake I want to add that I had come to the same conclusions if this had been a US operation, or a Chinese, or even a Iraqi, operation.

FoxLeonard

Didn't realize it was the gas that killed them.

Oh well.

quote:

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
But it IS also a Russian "tradition" inherited from the Soviet authorities,

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Who inherited it from the Tsars/Czars.

Nox

Gotta give credit to the Ruskies: they aren't afraid to try something, however stupid it may be. And I definatley like how the soldiers executed them. The criminals here in the US get entirely too many rights. Cable TV in jail? What the hell is that?

The Russians refused to reveal what type of gas they used, even to their own doctors...

I'm sure world will get out eventually. It must clearly be in the testing phase if they weren't sure how large the difference in the amounts should be to go between lethal and rendering the victim unconcious.

quote:

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Originally posted by FuckOffandDie:
The Russians refused to reveal what type of gas they used, even to their own doctors...

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...because if they had told the doctors and the hospitals in advance, there was a risk that a warning could be forwarded to the terrorists, who were equipped with gas-masks and respirators.

If the substance of the gas actually was kept secret to the doctors a while longer, I guess the Russian authorities� secretive habits are to blame, combined with feelings of guild.

The Russians responsible don�t excactly consider themselves heros. I just saw Putin begging for the people�s forgiveness "for the imperfections of the state". The leader of the Spetsnaz troops that made the attack said in an interview: "We were bound to make mistakes, and we did..."

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 10-28-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by YouAreNotYourKhakis:
I'm sure world will get out eventually. It must clearly be in the testing phase if they weren't sure how large the difference in the amounts should be to go between lethal and rendering the victim unconcious.

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According to a Swedish Army expert on gas and military use of gas, the Spetznas had to use a concentration and amount aimed at filling the whole room, and aimed at putting also the terrorists "at the back" to sleep fast enough. Therefore the gas had to be too strong for the people who were closest to the source.

As a Russian doctor said already yesterday, one main reason that so many hostages died was the fact that they had been without food, not got enough water, and had been under severe mental stress; all this for 58 hours.

FoxLeonard

Ah I see. Thanks for the info!

Well, let's forget about the incident and look at the possible consequences:

1. Russia will nuke Chechnya and royally fuck Georgia for harboring those dickwads.
2. Russia will OK Dubya's attack on Iraq
3. The middle-east unites and we have a situation...

When they refuse to reveal the details after the crisis, it's not unreasonable to suspect a cover-up

On the one hand a gas like nitrous oxide, would have been a sensible choice for the special forces. Nitrous oxide can have severe side effects but if it was used in large concentrations it could have simply suffocated the people in the theatre (being heavier than air). This would explain why there were no fatalities amongst the children in the gallery - they still had an oxygen supply. However the victims. The question is, if the Spetnaz used nitrous oxide or a similar anaesthetic gas and simply misjudged the amounts, why don't they tell the doctors?
It's hardly a compromise of national security.

Other experts suggest Quinuclidinyl benzilate, better known as BZ, might have been used. If the Russians did use this controversial incapacitating hallucinogen (developed by the US in the 60s but proved to be unreliable, thought to have been used more recently by the Serbs against Bosnians and Kosovans) it's not surprising they're not telling anyone.

Resolving such a situation without fatalities would have been virtually impossible, but was it a misjudgement for which the Spetnaz were entirely blameless or risking civilian lives with a dangerous intoxicant when other gases could doubtless have incapacitated the terrorists with fewer side-effects.

Atheist Mantis

I guess you don�t mean that Russia will litterally nuke Chechnya?! That would really make things go from bad to worse...

As I can understand, the Russians have already intensified their actions in Chechnya. In a short perspective more people will suffer and die, but it might put an end to the war, at last.

Russia has once again the eyes of the world upon themselves and their actions. And the Russian people will for sure crave an end to this war - now!

Putin and his government have been so determined at delaying a US attack on Iraq, that I doubt this will change their approach. (My guess is that they are working on a solution of their own, like a coup to topple Saddam, but that is perhaps another question) On the other hand I�m not sure that Russia is totally against an attack, as a last option, and therefore I�m not sure they would even have a reason to change their minds because of the hostage drama.

As for your third point, I�m sorry to say that I don�t understand what you mean when you say: "the Middle East unites and we have a situation..."

FoxLeonard

well, not literally nuke chechnya, but the scale of "sachistka"* operations will greately increase. I predict that about 30% of the chechens will die, and the rest will be deported. Just like Stalin did to them after WW2, for fighting on the Nazi side.

Well, for my third point, I think that the terrorist organizations in the middle east will unite, in one or another way which will require a strong military presence in the middle east and the caucasus mountains.

* a partially translatable word meaning "cleansing". Not like cleansing of the room, but like cleansing the gene pool by shooting the individuals you don't like. That's the only thing they deserve.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
3. The middle-east unites and we have a situation...

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Last and only time that's happened since Mohammad, was Sulyman (various spellings, but Arabic for Solomon). Multiple pesonages have tried to duplicate the act since then and have failed (Ayatollah Kohmeni being one).

Won't happen. Too much Islamic tribalism and intra-tribal (not to mention inter-tribal) hatred and jealousy.

Nox

yes, Nox, I agree. The chechens would turon on each other as soon as they are left alone. Basaev's gang will fight Maskhadov's gang. Even now there is a part of chechnya fighting on the Russian federal Forces' side.
As fot the middle east, I think it will be more growth of the existing organizations that a large scale unification, a unification of the actions, not the organizations, which will still require a military presence.

Atheist Mantis

The Islamist International have managed to unite SOME Shiits and SOME Sunnis in their perverted version of Jihad. But almost no states.

Sudan, where the movement was founded, has been behind it all the time. Iran under Ayatollah Khomemeini gave support, but since Khomenei took over they have been more hesitant. Pakistan as a state was perhaps on their way to join in, but the military coup and the aftermath of 9/11 put an end to that.

Saddam is actually against them. But since the late 1990ies he has agreed to train Islamist forces. Most probably for his own purposes.(see the subject "Where is Bin Laden" on the Terrorist board for more)

Afghanistan under the Taliban was the first state "founded" according to the religio-political doctrines of the Islamist International. A symbol of a kind, and a shortlived one as such.

Saudi Arabia would never support the Islamists, neither would Kuweit. Jordania only take care of themselves, so they give all and everybody help at the same time.

I could go on with other, less significant states, but this is how it looks.

Another way to say it is, that if there had been a chance to join the countries of the Middle East and the Arab world, Israel would be called Palestine by now...

The Islamist International and their militant arm the Armed Islamic Movement, are on the other hand very determined in their "holy war against the infidels", and that�s bad enough. A US attack will for sure boost their recruiting, and give them more support from people and various groups.

FoxLeonard

That's exacly what I meant to say. Unfortunately, I lack the skills of conveying my opinion to the public I'm also too lazy to type up more than two paragraphs

The Islamic states will never unite, but the terrorist(I hate that word, it's like saying communist) organizations will. I guess that the funding institutions will grow because there is always money to be made in a war.