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| Politics: Left, Right, and Center National, state, regional, and local politics. Who's doing what to whom, and what you can do about it. How-to-get-action messages are encouraged. "How the government fucked up my life" stories are encouraged. Sharing new methods for cheating on taxes is encouraged. Sample "letters to congresscritters" are encouraged. Apathy and "I can't do anything" posts are discouraged. Left, right, centrist, or any other form of political-economic systems are all up for discussion. Be prepared to defend yourself, or at least have a good line of bullshit ready. Extensive quoting of economists and philosophers is frowned upon. We want to hear what YOU have to say, not what some constipated, impotent, dead guy dreamt up while suffering from the DT's over a hundred years ago thought. |
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This particular thread is a partial recovery - page 2 of its original capture was never archived, so some posts from that page are missing below.
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#1
 2002-10-21, 19:48 |
HomerJay603 
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 That damn god thing in the pledge
Over the last couple of months, I have been called many names, all because I want "one nation under god" taken out of the pledge.
I fucking hate it.
There is no logical reason to keep that phrase in there. It goes against the idea of seperation of church and state, and it further gives power to the ultra-christian motherfuckers in congress.
It is not part of our heritage, it was put in after WWII because we were afraid of the atheism of Communism.
It is there to serve one purpose, to say loudly and clearly "All the important of us here believe in that cross guy."
It also severly angers me that every christian is expected to do all we can to fight to keep that line in there, and if we don't, we are fuckers. (I am a christian)
This is bullshit.
That needs to be taken out of the pledge NOW!
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#2
2002-10-21, 20:13 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
...
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#3
2002-10-21, 21:50 |
Nox
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by HomerJay603:
That needs to be taken out of the pledge NOW!
I am not a Christian. However, if you read about the "roots" of the origin of this country, you will find that it (the history of same) is replete with Christianity and its doctrine. Your pronouncement comes across as meaning that you advocate a revisionist version of history which will make it (history) so PC as to make facts non-existant. Since you claim to be Christian, I find your stance to be, let's say curious (instead of hypocritical). Nox |
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#4
2002-10-21, 21:56 |
Agent Boris_KGB
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by HomerJay603:
it was put in after WWII because we were afraid of the atheism of Communism.
WTF?!? |
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#5
2002-10-21, 22:00 |
HomerJay603
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by Nox:
I am not a Christian. However, if you read about the "roots" of the origin of this country, you will find that it (the history of same) is replete with Christianity and its doctrine.
Your pronouncement comes across as meaning that you advocate a revisionist version of history which will make it (history) so PC as to make facts non-existant.
Since you claim to be Christian, I find your stance to be, let's say curious (instead of hypocritical).
Nox
This is not a matter of PC, this is a matter of the pledge being a symptom of how the government skirts the CONSTITUTION and inserts religion into policy, official documents, lawmaking, etc. I find that to be replusive. Although this country is rooted in religion, that is no reason to make a religious state out of what should be a secular state. The fact that I am a christian does not mean that I can't hate when christianity is crammed into the government. They are supposed to be two different things, and they should stay that way. |
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#6
2002-10-21, 22:05 |
ShadowFist
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
there is no reason to take it out either and if some damn arab gets afended by it, he should'nt have move to a primarily christian country
-ShadowFist
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#7
2002-10-21, 22:06 |
RejectJC
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
The constition is old, and plus our constitution also states freedom of religion and our pledge says one nation under god, our nation isnt under god. Theres many different religions so i feel we should put one nation under free religion(word it better) or just take it out because everyone in this country is not under god.
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#8
2002-10-21, 23:35 |
buttthrax
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
First off, I think this "constitution is old" is a buncha crap. Changing the constitution will change the government. Constantly changing governments create unstability.
And, although I don't really care one way or the other, the law says that the word "God" shouldn't be in the pledge. I think it is a pretty asanine thing to get worked up over. Michael Newdow is wasting precious time.
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#9
2002-10-21, 23:46 |
HomerJay603
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowFist:
there is no reason to take it out either and if some damn arab gets afended by it, he should'nt have move to a primarily christian country
-ShadowFist
It is not a matter of us being a primiarily Christian country, it is a matter of being a country that claims to be secular. Either act like Church and state are different things, or just fucking name Cardinal Law as the president and begin an inquisition, killing all who are not christian. The idea that "Under God" should be in the oath that people immigrating to this country must say is BULLSHIT! I don't say the pledge because of that sentance, and I don't intend to. This is another one of those reasons that I don't have ANY respect for this country, and a growing number of americans believe as I do. This country can only achieve greatness by doing what we profess to do. But I could be wrong -Homer |
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#10
2002-10-22, 01:17 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Secular just means that a religion doesn't run the government and the government doesn't run religion.
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#11
2002-10-22, 01:44 |
Nox
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by HomerJay603:
I don't say the pledge because of that sentance, and I don't intend to.
Do you spend money? Hypocrite. Nox |
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#12
2002-10-22, 01:50 |
RejectJC
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
ok you know what sucks, i have to retype this because a bottle fell over and hit the escape key... anyways i guess i have nothing better to do.
Well the phrase "One nation under god" just got added in what 60's 70's i dont know the excact date, but ever since then people have been complaining who are not christians, and its not all muslims or arabians or whatever it is born on soil americans too who have different religions. I feel that because of this add on it has just caused more trouble than needed and more disclaimers about saying the pledge than there already were. I feel that christians are being a little selfish with the fact that they say it should be there because United States was based on christianity. Everyone already knows about christianity you dont have to put it in the pledge.
From what our pledge sounds like it sounds like all of the USA's religion is christianity or under the belief of god, and thats not right. Even though christians think it is because its there religion but they have to consider what if someone put one nation under satan? Christians would be raising shit about it, so i feel that people have the right to raise crap about this new phrase that has been added, because before it was added there wasnt as much fighting over it and stuff like, ever since it got added people have just been more mad and more people have turned off from saying the pledge including me(i have other reasons too but no reason to explain them on here.)
But then if you do get rid of it you will have the whole christian community raising shit just like alll the other people did before so its all mass confusion. But over all I feel it should be taken out because it would follow that not everyone in the USA is under god and people who wanted to will still respect the flag and people who used to until the new phrase was added will too.
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#13
2002-10-22, 06:13 |
YouAreNotYourKhakis
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Just because of that we should have to take it out? It is not all out seperation of church and state. That would eliminate the very same freedom of speech you want to preserve. If you don't like it, deal with it and just don't say it. What if you were some succesionist, and didn't like the idea that "indivisible" was in the pledge, or just a pro-crime sort of guy, and want to take "justice" out. It's not relevant. The idea that you are not allowed to pray in school is flim flam fuckin ridiculous. Yes, the teachers shouldn't be able to impose it but I have never fuckin had a teacher do that, even when I went to a Christian school.
It is part of our heritage, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs. If you don't like it fine, but don't make them be taken down because of that.
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#14
2002-10-22, 13:41 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Who gives a fuck? If you care enough to want to remove it you should be put in front of a firing squad, end of story. Little Jimmy does not come home from school and say, "Dad, you said theres no God, but my teacher says under God in the pledge of allegiegance. I hate you."
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#15
2002-10-22, 13:42 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Besides, Atheists like to tell people atheism is not a religion, or even a belief system. So good, it isnt protected by the constitution, fuck 'em.
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#16
2002-10-22, 20:47 |
HomerJay603
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by YouAreNotYourKhakis:
That would eliminate the very same freedom of speech you want to preserve.
WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOU!?!?!?!!? Nothing is freedom of speech if it is imposed on those who don't believe what they are saying!! All of you fail to see the perspective of an immigrant who wants to join this land of opportunity, and is forced then to pledge something completely against anything they have ever been taught. We are NOT a nation under god because of 3 reasons: 1)we are a secular state, and as a government do not believe in ONE god. This means that capitol hill is not under god. 2)Not all of our people believe in "god" thus they and all of their property is not under god. 3)God is not allowed in schools, thus schools are not under god. So I believe that phrase should be taken out or replaced with "one nation, with 64.6% land mass under god, 10.4% under allah, 10% under various other gods, and 15% under no god" (no actuall stats are placed in there, numbers created randomly) |
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#17
2002-10-22, 21:21 |
UnclNastyFingerz
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Nox, why are you acting like "under God" being in the pledge is part of our nation's history? It was put there because of lobbying by the Knights of Columbus in the 50s.
God is not mentioned once in the constitution. While some of our nation's ideals are based on similar Christian doctrine, our nation was founded on strong notions of separation of church and state. Whether or not Christian morality was put into play by the founding fathers, the line in the pledge of alliegence is "One Nation, Under God" which bluntly defines our nation as a whole on the command of a higher power. Doesn't this lie in direct contrast to some of the ideals our founding fathers stood for?
Instead of calling me Stinkfinger and spouting some random insults, actually try to provide a logical argument.
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#18
2002-10-22, 21:24 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Through the people it is.
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#19
2002-10-22, 22:15 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
Little Jimmy does not come home from school and say, "Dad, you said theres no God, but my teacher says under God in the pledge of allegiegance. I hate you."
That's not the point. If you're concerned about public school; degrading what you teach your kid, then you aren't teaching him right to begin with. Pledging your allegiance to John Ashcroft; ABOVE your country, is treasonous. quote:
Besides, Atheists like to tell people atheism is not a religion, or even a belief system. So good, it isnt protected by the constitution.
This is good. It's a load of horseshit from a logical perspective, but it's good. |
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#20
2002-10-22, 23:06 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
>>>>Nox, why are you acting like "under God" being in the pledge is part of our nation's history? It was put there because of lobbying by the Knights of Columbus in the 50s.<<<<<
Why are you acting like it bothers you that we say Under God? Until it became trendy, complaining about it was something you said to sound rebellious in school, or ignored because who honestly gives a fuck about such bullshit?
>>>>God is not mentioned once in the constitution. While some of our nation's ideals are based on similar Christian doctrine, our nation was founded on strong notions of separation of church and state.<<<<
There is no establishment of a Church of America in saying "One Nation under God." We still seperate Church and State, dont worry.
>>>> Whether or not Christian morality was put into play by the founding fathers, the line in the pledge of alliegence is "One Nation, Under God" which bluntly defines our nation as a whole<<<<<
No it doesnt. It offends uppity and empty childish attention-seekers who like to play political savvy and speak for people that hate them.
>>>> Doesn't this lie in direct contrast to some of the ideals our founding fathers stood for?<<<<
No. No right to vote without being a certain religious denomination = offensive to those who wanted seperation of Church and state. School kids mentioning God does not.
Im curious about the founding Fathers and prayer. How many times did they pray to an identifiable deity in Congress while it was in session?
>>>>Instead of calling me Stinkfinger<<<<
How about asshole?
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#21
2002-10-22, 23:13 |
YouAreNotYourKhakis
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
"WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOU!?!?!?!!?
Nothing is freedom of speech if it is imposed on those who don't believe what they are saying!!"
My point was, no one is forcing you to say it. So what the fuck is your arguement? You don't have to say the entire pledge if you don't want to. So if it bothers you, don't fuckin' say it. You think I like the idea that I had to learn evolution and all that bullshit in high school. That is forcing you to learn something you oppose a belief in. Your grade depends on it... it's a sack of bullshit to be forced to learn that.
"All of you fail to see the perspective of an immigrant who wants to join this land of opportunity, and is forced then to pledge something completely against anything they have ever been taught."
Fuck the immigrant. I'm sick of them coming here and with there minute amounts saying that they deserved equal treatment and equal say of a group (namely white middle class Judeo-Christians) that there numbers don't equal. If there are 20 immigrants bitching that they want my state of Florida getting a second official language of Spanish while the the other 80 non-immigrants are against it, why should they be appeased? The minority should never get equal or more say than the majority. If they don't want to say "under God" to get their citizenship then they don't have to. When they do those things, there are like hundreds of them doing it at a time. No one would notice if Akbar doesn't say one thing...
"We are NOT a nation under god because of 3 reasons:
1)we are a secular state, and as a government do not believe in ONE god. This means that capitol hill is not under god.
2)Not all of our people believe in "god" thus they and all of their property is not under god.
3)God is not allowed in schools, thus schools are not under god."
Come on now.... no one thinks "under God" in terms of, God is the head of our country, as some sort of king. The ones who belief in God think he watches over us, just like he does to everyone else on the planet. Again I bring up my arguement, why should I have to learn about evolution. If I fuck around and tried not to take evolution, I could have gotten an F. If I had gotten an F I may never have gotten into college. That has an impact, not whether or not the pledge is written with "under God" in it. I am forced to take that, no one goes around checking to make sure they are saying under God.
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#22
2002-10-22, 23:37 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by Nox:
Do you spend money?
Hypocrite.
Nox
Ha Ha I can see this guy downtown trying to get a cab that will take two chickens and a quart of goats milk as cab fare. [This message has been edited by MR END (edited 10-22-2002).] |
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#23
2002-10-23, 00:52 |
HomerJay603
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
The most important things about this subject are as follows:
1)The pledge was without "under god" until idiots afraid of the fact that communism was atheist decided that god needed to be mentioned in the pledge
2)GOD IS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE STATE!!!!!!! When you attach religion to government in any way, you are just 2 steps away from the spanish inquisition.
On a completely unrelated topic, Nox, why did you close the sniper thread?
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#24
2002-10-23, 01:26 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
The U.S. government is only two steps away from the spanish inquisition?
Caught me off gaurd;
but then again "nobody expects the spanish inquisition".
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#25
2002-10-23, 01:35 |
HomerJay603
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by Agent Boris_KGB:
WTF?!?
Soviet communism completely rejected all religion as a threat to the state. McArthy and his nazi fucking bastard piece of shit gorrillafucking horserapers were afraid that would happen here, so they added that. Just another fucking thing that guy screwed us on. |
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#26
2002-10-31, 01:54 |
ridemypony
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Much ado about nothing.
"Under God" Big deal. What kind of God? Whose God? God of nothing" Something" No one says and no one cares. People are so freaking worried about zip. People whine and complain about all the so-called "Christianity" is prevalent in our government, and whatever. I wonder why? How many people in the House, Senate, Judicial Branch do you think are some sort of Christian or believer in God? I would say ahhhh, all of them or most. The majority of the people in the US would claim the same. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? Great, you hate God or whatever, then just mumble through the words. Who are you trying to save? It is great that tiny minorities have rights, they still do, but I guarantee if there was a national vote taken on this issue, it would stay.
And since Christians take so much crap from everyone (the vocal minority) I will say this. I think some aspects of evolution are valid. I think you can believe in God and aspects of the evolutionary process. 6 days to God might be 678 billion years to us, who knows how he did the things it says he did in Genesis? But until you can show me a direct 100% line of evolution from apes to man, it is a HYPOTHESIS, no more valid than creationism. Everything is supposed to be in the earth, then why all the missing evidence in the chain of ape to man?
These are not cut and dry, black and white issues. Grow up and cool-off. Shouting and whining do not make a case. Show that you are a well thought-out individual that sees both sides of an issue and people will listen. Coming out and saying how much you "fucking hate this, or fucking hate that" just shows to others that you do not have the brain matter that makes discussing anything with you worth their time. Maybe start by not worrying so much about everyone else, start by worrying about yourself. The issue of the pledge is simple. You don't like it, you don't say it. The people that created this nation sure believed in God, the people that fought to keep it safe did, and just because a tiny, loudmouth minority of people don't like it now is hardly reason to trash it. Make your own god out of clay and put it on your mantle. When you say the pledge, think of it when you say "God." It certainly does'nt specify in the pledge what God you are talking to does it?
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#27
2002-10-31, 04:05 |
Vox
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
big deal about the pledge. just don't say it if it bothers you. I sat around in high school thinking about 75% of what I heard there was bullshit, and that was in my history and english classes. so if you don't like to say under god, just say this when the pledge comes on:
I wedge the regents
To the flakes
of the untitled snakes of a merry cow
and to the republicans
for which they scam
one nacho
underpants
invisible
with liver tea and jugs of wine for owls.
vox populi, vox dei.
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#28
2002-10-31, 06:59 |
syndicalist
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Khaki, you did not understand the movie Fight Club at all.
Just because someone believes in god does not mean they are judeochristian. Why is Islam excluded from this list? It makes you wonder.
All I am saying is that the Pledge was changed during the Red Scare. This is when our government feared a revolution by the people to take back our country. Do not get me wrong, I am not a communist. I am saying any revolution. Those in power just concentrated on communism.
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#29
2002-10-31, 12:55 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Commies cant take it back...They never had it. Well, at least not in the 50's.
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#30
2002-10-31, 14:22 |
YouAreNotYourKhakis
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by syndicalist:
Khaki, you did not understand the movie Fight Club at all.
No I understood it perfectly well. You said that I had to completely agree with it. Not once in the entire movie did they ever suggest destorying the entire government. They wanted to expose how little importance there is to the things people consider so important. Think of my username, and the context it is in the movie. "You are not your fucking khakis" is what he says. Think about how fuckin' image driven all this shit is. I don't fuckin spend 80 on a pair of pants, who says you should? That's the message the movie is attempting to convey. Remember when they are on the bus and they see that Gucci ad of that male model in underwear (shudder) and point out that that is not what the common male looks like. Tyler says "Self improvement is masturbation, and self destruction." Where is the "bring down the entire federal government" sentiment in that statement? Coincedentally, I am pro-business, but in another way... quote:
Just because someone believes in god does not mean they are judeochristian. Why is Islam excluded from this list? It makes you wonder.
I never said that at all, I said the ideals are similar. The foundations the country was based on that. You are again assuming that the vast majority of the founders were deists... And what fuckin islams? I sure as hell know Ben Franklin wasn't islamic.. quote:
All I am saying is that the Pledge was changed during the Red Scare. This is when our government feared a revolution by the people to take back our country. Do not get me wrong, I am not a communist. I am saying any revolution. Those in power just concentrated on communism.
You're right, "under God" was added then, but does that mean it shouldn't be there now? Some things that were accepted initially by the country have been changed, the ones that haven't been are mostly fine. When it comes to the pledge though, there was little sentiment against it's initialization. That is because the majority of the people were of Judeo/Christian descent and thought it fitting. The debate over communism is something else, because communism was getting somewhat popular in that time. Think about it: 20 years after the Great Depression, it would be seen if communism was actually a worthwhile system. It turned out (what a surprise) that it is a shitty system of government. That is why they went after it, that and the fact that it directly opposes the idea of a democratic government, and capitalism. |
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#31
2002-10-31, 18:47 |
syndicalist
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
The movie was not pro-business. They destroyed the entire credit system in America. That is analogous to destroying capitalism. Yes, spending eighty dollars on pants is stupid. The movie was trying to show that we are humans, not consumers. Read the paper, we are officially called consumers.
No, the movie did not say "destroy the federal government". You are a sophomore or junior in high school. Nothing wrong with that, it is just that at your age things seem a lot more black and white than they really are. Think about it: What would happen if capitalism was destroyed in this country? Our government would be radically altered. So much so as to basically be destroyed.
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#32
2002-10-31, 19:16 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
It didnt want to destroy capitalism either, at least in the sense that you think. Certainly not in favor of some leftist queer shit.
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#33
2002-10-31, 22:35 |
YouAreNotYourKhakis
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by syndicalist:
The movie was not pro-business. They destroyed the entire credit system in America. That is analogous to destroying capitalism. Yes, spending eighty dollars on pants is stupid. The movie was trying to show that we are humans, not consumers. Read the paper, we are officially called consumers.
My God in Heaven. I never once said the movie was pro business, I said I was pro business. They weren't anti-business in the sense where they didn't trust corporations. They didn't like the consumerism MTV garbage (see: "Those Abortion idiots" post for that sentiment), not anti-corporate world, so to speak. quote:
No, the movie did not say "destroy the federal government". You are a sophomore or junior in high school. Nothing wrong with that, it is just that at your age things seem a lot more black and white than they really are. Think about it: What would happen if capitalism was destroyed in this country? Our government would be radically altered. So much so as to basically be destroyed.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I am a freshman in college. Where did you get that I wasn't? If capitalism went down, something else would happen. It's hard to predict exactly what. Could result in a lot of things, to a 10 second anarchy, or even worst case, communism. |
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#34
2002-11-06, 08:06 |
syndicalist
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Freshman in college, I apologize.
They most certianly did not trust corporations. They fucking blew up all the credit buildings in the city. Credit card companies are corporations. If you did not even see the fact that the movie was anti-business, then I was right, you did not understand it.
Spirit, leftist queer shit? WTF is that? Do you even know what you are talking about anymore?
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#35
2002-11-06, 12:21 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
I guess not. When I see people criticising capitalism, I guess I'm wrong to assume its someone in favor of a leftist, socialistic economic system. I should figure there are a lot more Fascists out there.
Fuck you.
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#36
2002-11-06, 14:36 |
YouAreNotYourKhakis
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by syndicalist:
They most certianly did not trust corporations. They fucking blew up all the credit buildings in the city. Credit card companies are corporations. If you did not even see the fact that the movie was anti-business, then I was right, you did not understand it.
My gosh, WATCH THE MOVIE!!!! That is not true, they were not doing it to give a fuck you to the giant corporations. They were doing it to get everyone back to zero. THEY SAY THAT SEVERAL TIMES! Go to the point right before Tyler Durden disappears, when Jack is passing out and Tyler is describing what it would be like if everyones credit would be erased. |
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#37
2002-11-08, 09:23 |
Hune
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Eisenhower added "under god" to the pledge in 1950-60. I don't believe his motivation was the red scare, but that possibly was a factor. Eisenhower gave this statement after approving the addition:
"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
In my opinion his personal preference was his primary motivation. This does not strike me at all as unusually for a politician to have his self-interests motivate his actions, although during this period most Americans would have supported him anyways. Imagine if the Present Commander in Chief attempted adding lines to the pledge of allegiance today with religous connotations.
It's my personal preference that I don't recite the pledge of allegiance, but that does not mean that I am un-American. I find it kind of silly and absurd to recite a chant with a group of people to solidify my allegiance to anything, it kind of reminds me of some cults...
I know where I stand when it comes to my Country and my beliefs, and I do not hesitate to voice my opinions on such matters if anyone doubts my conviction, although I don't usually have to...
I've got this large red, white, and blue piece of cloth that's attached to this pole that protrudes from my house and just seems to say it all.
* I didn't take the time to read all the posts so I apologize if anything in this post is repetitive.
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#38
2002-11-13, 10:31 |
syndicalist
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Spirit, you never cease to amaze me. Telling me, "fuck you" is the best you got? My friend, you see the world in black or white. The economy is not capitalism or communism. Do you know what anarcho-syndicalism is? Read about it and then come back and tell me about leftist queer shit. And socialism.
Khaki, erasing everyones debt strikes at the root of capitalism. Our nation is one of borrow and spend. So we get in debt and we keep working to pay off that debt. But we want more shit so we keep borrowing. We get further in debt so we keep working. If the debt was erased nobody would have to support American capitalism. Your username itself is an attack on capitalism and I think it is a good motto. Why spend eighty dollars for pants? The only reason is because advertising and we want to look like we are upper class. We believe that if we waste tons of money on clothes, cars, and houses, then people will envy us.
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#39
2002-11-13, 14:52 |
NukeChild
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Debt is at the heart of capitalism, but not in the way you are thinking of it. Loans to businesses for the purchase of capital goods are at the heart of capitalism. Its the ability to borrow money for investment that fuels everything.
If someone defaults on a loan, they lose a lot. People being stupid with a credit card has nothing to do with the success of capitalism, it has everything to do with poverty though. You probably already know the "evils" of the credit card and it is because of a lack of self-control that people live beyond their means and spend too damn much.
Your last part really isn't that correct. People buy expensive pants because they want to and go to Walmart and other places becuase it is cheap. Some people will always buy the sports jersey, the $100 Athletic Shoes, and wear the akullcap thing in an attempt to look like their favorite rapper, ect. It is an oversimplification to state that people are just doing it for envy and prestige.
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#40
2002-11-13, 20:25 |
syndicalist
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
I agree with most of your statements. Yet, when you talk about a lack of control, look at the US govt. They are six trillion dollars in debt and only getting worse. To pay that off and support retired baby boomers is going to wipe the middle class wealth out of this country.
As far as people buying one hundred dollar pants or shoes, they are doing it because of advertising. If a rapper is wearing nikes, then some of their fans will wear nike. Or maybe they will have an endorsement whore like Mike Jordan hawk bullshit goods like hot dogs, underwear, and sugar water drinks. The only difference between bud light, miller lite, and coors light, is advertising, pure and simple. So, what I said about envy and prestige is because those emotions are drawn out by marketing companies. The reason they are drawn out is because they sell goods. Hence, it's association with capitalism.
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#41
2002-11-13, 23:13 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
I dont like it anymore than you dude, but as long as it is a general God, (aka: not that cross guy), Its still legal.
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#42
2002-11-14, 03:19 |
NukeChild
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Advertising in capitalism directly relates to game theory and the Nash Equilibrium. Advertising is inherently wasteful, but if you do not advertise and your opponent does, you will be at a disadvantage and lose market share. Because of this, everyone advertises. Advertising also serves as a tool to make the public aware of your product. Just because people cave in and decide to indulge themselves in their delusions of what makes them cool, does not mean that this is an inherently bad thing.
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#43
2002-11-14, 12:16 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
I think so.
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#44
2002-11-14, 21:33 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by NukeChild:
Advertising is inherently wasteful... [blah, blah, *changes mind*] ...does not mean that this is an inherently bad thing.
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#45
2002-11-14, 21:50 |
NukeChild
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
The money that is spent currently on advertising is a waste. It is not the most productive use of resources as people allready know of the wonderful benefits of most products. I am not changing my mind, but it must be pointed out that advertising in and of itself is not bad, but ridiculous ammounts of money are being spent by one corporation to counter the advertising effects of another. It is a competiton between two men throwing silver dollars into a river to see who lasts longest.
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#46
2002-11-15, 14:39 |
YouAreNotYourKhakis
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by syndicalist:
Khaki, erasing everyones debt strikes at the root of capitalism. Our nation is one of borrow and spend. So we get in debt and we keep working to pay off that debt. But we want more shit so we keep borrowing. We get further in debt so we keep working. If the debt was erased nobody would have to support American capitalism. Your username itself is an attack on capitalism and I think it is a good motto. Why spend eighty dollars for pants? The only reason is because advertising and we want to look like we are upper class. We believe that if we waste tons of money on clothes, cars, and houses, then people will envy us.
Now you are back peddling. I agree, paying 80 dollars for pants is utterly fucking ridiculous. However you said it was anti-corporations, not anti-capitalism. There is a difference there... The whole movie was basically to show that importance is placed on unimportant things. quote:
They are six trillion dollars in debt and only getting worse.
Uh.... what are you talking about? National debt? Trade deficit? I'm an economics major... you're figures are way the fuck off. Not to mention, debt isn't a bad thing for a country... It's actually very irrelevant. |
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#47
2002-11-15, 20:55 |
syndicalist
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Nuke, advertising is not inherently bad, nothing really is in this world. What I was getting at is that advertising is a huge waste of money and bad for society. Look at television, it could have been the best medium for education the world ever came up with. Instead, it is used to hawk worthless goods to consumers, not people, consumers.
Khaki, you said you are an economics major, yet you are a freshman in college. Once you have your bachelor's, better yet, your master's degree, then come back and talk about how our debt is irrelevant. Our debt is owed to the federal reserve bank. That bank is not part of our government, it is a private bank, owned by individuals. And it is relevant, the sheer billions we spend on the interest is astounding. Eventually, it will have to be paid off. Open your fucking economics book.
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#48
2002-11-15, 21:44 |
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Our zeal, with which we undertake advertising; is a symptom of a larger sickness. We allow a greeting card and gift manufacturer, to create our traditions for us. And unless you live in a cabin, in the woods, we're all getting sucked in to some degree.
If excess is a personal vice, then cultural excess is made up of many vices.
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#49
2002-11-15, 23:26 |
NukeChild
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
Syndicalist-
I was arguing that advertising at this level is wasteful. I went on to list its good points and describe why at certain levels it is bad.
If you are advocating free TV or radio, it will never really happen. Advertisements are how the various stations pay for the equipment and power needed to run their business. Unless you switch to a subscription based service, you will always have commericals. Comercials are the reason that there is anything on TV or radio, they are the incentive to create anything from the education of the discovery channel to the bannality of a sitcom.
I could argue that people are consumers because we all have to consume to exist. This is an argument that should be saved for a seperate thread.
It is good that the FED is not part of the Government. This free's it from the meddling of politicians. I am also not sure if you are aware that the FED is a non profit group and all of its earnings are given directly to the treasury department.
According to Keynes, we do not need to balance the budget in the current period, but through the cycle. Obviously we will have to pay off the deficit, but the point is that a deficit is not always a bad thing. Yes it should be reduced, but it is wrong to expect that every year we should balance the budget.
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#50
2002-11-20, 14:24 |
YouAreNotYourKhakis
Regular
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Re: That damn god thing in the pledge
quote:
Originally posted by syndicalist:
Khaki, you said you are an economics major, yet you are a freshman in college. Once you have your bachelor's, better yet, your master's degree, then come back and talk about how our debt is irrelevant. Our debt is owed to the federal reserve bank. That bank is not part of our government, it is a private bank, owned by individuals. And it is relevant, the sheer billions we spend on the interest is astounding. Eventually, it will have to be paid off. Open your fucking economics book.
What... Are... You... Talking about!? Just because I am a freshman means I don't know shit about the economy? You said national debt. The nation can't owe the fed. That doesn't make any sense. Like I said. What debt do you mean? Elaborate. |
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