I look around this forum and all I really see are anti-American posts of all kinds and natures. I am amazed at how quickly we forget about the 6 or so million gassed jews and focus on hating a country who has probably protected yours in the past. Does anyone else see the irony or am I the only one who is yet to forgive Germany for the holocaust?

Oh god...

Schopenhauer didn't call them the great masters of the lie for nothing

Many of the posters here don't believe in the holocaust in the first place.

Most of the rest believe it's only Hitler and the other Nazi officials who are to blame.

And I'm sure everyone here recognizes the signifigance of time frame.

And some of us think that it's ridiculous that the alleged deaths of "6 million" jews are thrust to the top of the almighty hierarchy of victimhood above billions of other people who have been killed in history.

While others are skeptical about its occurence, but in their hearts hope it did.

That made me laugh so loud, the end bit.

Uh, I guess everyone else has already said what I was going to say. I need a drink.

Question for phender -

Stalinism killed a shitload more people than the alleged 6 million Jews. Do you think we should sit around and hate Russia, never to forgive them?

At least the Germans apologised for the atrocities of WWII, unlike the Japanese.

stalinism also had to show that it was on the up too.

industrialisation, collectivisation and revolution had a hold of a vast network of communities in russia.

if germany had taken russia i feel that theu would have wiped almost every russian out in due time.

so instead of saying he killed 11 million i see it as he saved many more people in his country from certain death.

a foreword on the japanease can be that one man (president) does not make up a whole nations views.

Let us not forget that the nations of Europe actually paid the Germans to take their Jews off their hands. Collection of the Jews was left to the local authorities. It is cheap and cowardly to pass off anti-semitism as a purely German phenomenon. And yes it is easy for the Europeans to 'forgive' the Germans...they were part of the plot.

Nox

Nox, you can't brand the whole of Europe as being anti semitic and "part of the plot". Yes certain nations did have Nazi sympathies such as Italy and "neutral" nations acting on their behalf like Sweden. Thousands of soldiers and civilians alike across Europe perished defending their homes, freedom and lives.
Naturally each nation had a percentage who agreed with Hitlers policies, Oswald Moseley's Blackshirts in Britain being one example. These people were in the minority.
You may be one of those who believes that America won the war, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. Then again the war had been going for four years before American intervention which did swing the balance.
You're insinuating that Europe simply "rolled over" to the Nazi war machine which is an insult to all the victims Jewish or otherwise.

Some occupied countries resisted measures to round up their Jews while others actively encouraged it.

Some people here believe that Jews weren't the only people to die.

There's a difference between Oswald Mosely, a fascist admirer of Mussolini who never won more than a tiny number of supporters and French WWI "hero" Petain's Vichy France.

That kid just said Stalin didnt really kill 20 million people, he saved many more...

Seriously, who do people like this bother being alive?

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikey_jay:
Nox, you can't brand the whole of Europe as being anti semitic and "part of the plot". Yes certain nations did have Nazi sympathies such as Italy and "neutral" nations acting on their behalf like Sweden. Thousands of soldiers and civilians alike across Europe perished defending their homes, freedom and lives.

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Yes, and Vichy France et al. Norway and Denmark being the notable exceptions. My point remains...Anti-sematism is not a German phenomenon. Yes, those millions (not just thousands) did perish defending their homes, but that is not the point I was making. The identification and collection of the Jews in occupied Europe was the responsibility of the local officials who were only too happy to comply. After all, who do you think took possession of all the empty "Jewish" buildings when the inhabitants left? Who got the money in the savings accounts? Who got the furnishings left behind? Who...(the list goes on)? When you say the "whole of Europe", that is true. Because in any scenario when you go with an absolute, only one exception negates your premise. Yes, not ALL of Europe, but far too many...especially those in leadership positions.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikey_jay:
Naturally each nation had a percentage who agreed with Hitlers policies, Oswald Moseley's Blackshirts in Britain being one example. These people were in the minority.

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Naturally.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikey_jay:
You may be one of those who believes that America won the war, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion.

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No, I am not one of those who thinks America "won the war". I am one who thinks that the Europeans do not recognize the roll the Americans played in helping defeat the axis. I do notice the Europeans giving the Russians their deserved credit for the absolutely significant role the Soviet Union played in the 'Great Patriotic War', and in the next breath poo-hoo the American contribution. Typical European pompousness. Also, I guess you forget the Lend-Lease Act, the US convoys, et al. You know, all those little things that totally irritated the Germans prior to US entry into the war- guess it just slipped everyone's mind...especially since the US played such a minor role in Europe's war.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikey_jay:
Then again the war had been going for four years before American intervention which did swing the balance.

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Here comes my fuzzy math: 1Sept1939- Hitler invades Poland. Shortly thereafter the European countries start declaring war on each other. 7Dec1941- Japan attacks Pearl Harbor. Within days of the attack, Germany declares war on the US...Hey bucko, count again. Four years? I think not.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikey_jay:
You're insinuating that Europe simply "rolled over" to the Nazi war machine which is an insult to all the victims Jewish or otherwise.

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I insinuated no such thing. Those are your words not mine. If there is any insult (which I did not put out), it would be to anyone who wants to say the now pompous Europeans had nothing to do with the Jewish slaughter and that it was only the Germans.

Nox

quote:

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Originally posted by phender:
I look around this forum and all I really see are anti-American posts of all kinds and natures. I am amazed at how quickly we forget about the 6 or so million gassed jews and focus on hating a country who has probably protected yours in the past. Does anyone else see the irony or am I the only one who is yet to forgive Germany for the holocaust?

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Your right. We'll have to gas another 6,666,666 jews so the world will remember how you poor blooding sucking tapeworm child murdering ritual killing hatemongering mongrel supremecists suffer. We'll televise it and play it in movie theaters!

quote:

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Originally posted by Pikey_jay:
At least the Germans apologised for the atrocities of WWII, unlike the Japanese.

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Germany may have apologized, but America with its blonde haired blue eyed White girls being raped (usually consentually) by negro savages and no Race left to save, is sure sorry now. Americans live for the day they get to steal something. Enjoying the rat race? It fits you.

I'd say a change in leadership, 60+ years, and apologies would be enough for forgiveness.

Recently, South Koreans protested about Japanese history books, which left out events such as Comfort Women, Rape of Nanking, and Unit 731, And played upon that Japan was a victim.

You can't blame Germany, u have to put the blame on Hitler. Hitler made them, it's not there fault. and when every the chuch or forigen government would tell them to stop somthing, they would usually comply. no one cared about the slaugter untill the Germans started attcking the rest of europe.
Deutchland uber alles!

-ShadowFist

I'm anti-US, 100% American. Besides, you can't blame nations for atrocities committed in the past? How many Germans yet live who actually participated in the holocaust? Like WWII veterans, they are all soon to die, and the past ought to die with them.

tell that to the negroids

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tell that to the negroids

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No use. Why would they let things like logic and facts get in the way of a profitable shakedown?

quote:

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Originally posted by phender:
tell that to the negroids

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How come they aren't trying to extort money from the decendants that profited from selling them to the European Slavers in the first place? That's like Hawaiians bitching about Kamahamea when he's the one who sold them out.

>>>>Germany may have apologized, but America with its blonde haired blue eyed White girls being raped (usually consentually) <<<<

...

lol .....


I cant even say anything to make his comment funnier.

I have a better question. What has Germany done that the whole world is in a place to need to forgive it? Saudi Arabia and Peru care about what Germans do to Jews?

jSaxton and Karl,

This topic is good and full of great information. If you two want to spit on each other, go to Bitch and Moan. I will not move this topic there because of the outstanding political content. However, if you two start in spitting again in this or another topic, I will delete your spitting posts. I have enjoyed reading your opinions on the topic. Please keep your thoughts flowing (on topic).

Nox

Jsaxton and Karl are most likely the same guy.


Fear of Bolshevism had a lot to do with getting the Nazi party in power.

First of all, Jsaxton and I are not the same guy.
We know each other from way back, but are not the same guy.

Second of all, I am not a bolshevik, communist or a socialist. I just like the name, and it is the name I use for everything else. I am a libertarian-republican.

Third, not forgiving germany was not what caused world war II. The depression did. Forgiving Germany would not have alleviated the economic problems in Germany, because there were economic problems everywhere. Hitler used these problems in propoganda and thus gained power to achieve his ends.

No one answered my question. What has Germany done that the whole world is in a place to need to forgive it? Saudi Arabia and Peru care about what Germans do to Jews?

by "the world" I believe that people are talking about europe and the united states.

We are in a position to have to forgive Germany because we spent billions of dollars and thousands of people to STOP GERMANY.

At the very least, we can never forget that.

So, they killed people. Lots of people. That's just human nature. Everyone does it.

Nox, delete those posts.

quote:

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Originally posted by Spirit of '22:
No one answered my question. What has Germany done that the whole world is in a place to need to forgive it? Saudi Arabia and Peru care about what Germans do to Jews?

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The German regimes during WW 1 and WW 2 did A LOT OF THINGS they can�t be forgiven for!

ONE of the things the Nazi regime did was to put Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals (men and women), "Degenerates" etc in camps. They also killed a vast amount of these prisoners, in everything from experiments to executions. An atrocity that goes by the name of "The Jewish Holocaust"...

WW 2 as a whole, was a MUCH bigger atrocity, brought upon the world by the Nazi regime, supported by the German people of that day. And the real question here is if they should be forgiven for WW 2 (including the above mentioned Holocaust).

You must also consider that WW 2 was not only the war in Europe, but also Japan�s war in the far east. And Japan would most likely not have gone to war, if they hadn�t been directly and indirectly encouraged by the Nazi regime and by Germany�s success in the beginning of the war.

In the era of WW 2 most of the middle east was a British colony, as was Egypt. So they suffered from the war too, and would probably find the same reasons to blame Nazi Germany.

Parts of South America were German colonies in those days. I�m not sure that Peru was, but I�m sure that WW 2 had effects in Southern America. Effects brought upon them by the Nazi regime supported by the German people, so whopm do you think they would like to blame?

I hope this answers your question, Spirit.

What liberates us is the knowledge of who we were and what we became! FoxLeonard

It is true that many of the afformentioned places were indeed colonies of countries involved in war, but due to the war, many of these places gained their independance, so would not they be thankfull to germany?
Just a thought.

Think I am wrong?
Contact me here:
AIM: KarlMarxxxx
MSN:
Enragedalbinochipmunk@flaminghampstersquadron.zzn.com
ICQ: Currently, mine is down.

quote:

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Originally posted by KarlMarxxxx:
It is true that many of the afformentioned places were indeed colonies of countries involved in war, but due to the war, many of these places gained their independance, so would not they be thankfull to germany?
Just a thought.

Think I am wrong?
Contact me here:
AIM: KarlMarxxxx
MSN:
Enragedalbinochipmunk@flaminghampstersquadron.zzn.com
ICQ: Currently, mine is down.

---

Nope, I�ll answer here, if you don�t mind?!

Well, they gained their independance AFTER the war, when the British Empire saw fit to divide the middle east into "countries" of thier liking. Probably set up to make conflicts happen, rather sooner than later.

And even if they DID gain actual independance for the better, WW 2 could not have been an entirely positive experience for them...

So, even if I understand what you�re aiming at, I can only agree up to a point. I still believe they have reasons to put blame on Nazi Germany, even if they most probably have even more reasons to put different kinds of blame on the British Empire.

Wiecny kwiat wtadza! FoxLeonard

>>>>ONE of the things the Nazi regime did was to put Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals (men and women), "Degenerates" etc in camps.<<<<<

And the world would even care because?

>>>> They also killed a vast amount of these prisoners, in everything from experiments to executions.<<<<<

A uniquely German tragedy, apparently.

>>>> An atrocity that goes by the name of "The Jewish Holocaust"...<<<<<

Haha, is that what it was? I hadnt heard. You gotta help me with these things, I just crawled out of a cave the other day for the first time ever.

>>>>>WW 2 as a whole, was a MUCH bigger atrocity, brought upon the world by the Nazi regime, supported by the German people of that day.<<<<<<

I guess we'll add war to the uniquely german things that piss people off now too.

>>>> And the real question here is if they should be forgiven for WW 2 (including the above mentioned Holocaust).<<<<<

No it isnt. It didnt directly affect any of us. We are not in a place to forgive anyone. And their 'crimes' were not against us, so were in no place to forgive them again. And further, they did not do anything every other nation on earth hasnt done since the dawn of man, so we are no place to even condemn them to begin with.

>>>>>You must also consider that WW 2 was not only the war in Europe, but also Japan�s war in the far east.<<<<<

Blame the cave again.

>>>> And Japan would most likely not have gone to war, if they hadn�t been directly and indirectly encouraged by the Nazi regime and by Germany�s success in the beginning of the war.<<<<<

Yes they would have. They were warring with China before all that.

>>>>In the era of WW 2 most of the middle east was a British colony, as was Egypt. So they suffered from the war too, and would probably find the same reasons to blame Nazi Germany.<<<<<

They are not a British colony anymore. Isnt that what they wanted?

>>>>Parts of South America were German colonies in those days. I�m not sure that Peru was, but I�m sure that WW 2 had effects in Southern America. Effects brought upon them by the Nazi regime supported by the German people, so whopm do you think they would like to blame?<<<<<

What effects? What the hell are you talking about?

quote:

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
The German regimes during WW 1 and WW 2 did A LOT OF THINGS they can�t be forgiven for!

ONE of the things the Nazi regime did was to put Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals (men and women), "Degenerates" etc in camps. They also killed a vast amount of these prisoners, in everything from experiments to executions. An atrocity that goes by the name of "The Jewish Holocaust"...

WW 2 as a whole, was a MUCH bigger atrocity, brought upon the world by the Nazi regime, supported by the German people of that day. And the real question here is if they should be forgiven for WW 2 (including the above mentioned Holocaust).

You must also consider that WW 2 was not only the war in Europe, but also Japan�s war in the far east. And Japan would most likely not have gone to war, if they hadn�t been directly and indirectly encouraged by the Nazi regime and by Germany�s success in the beginning of the war.

In the era of WW 2 most of the middle east was a British colony, as was Egypt. So they suffered from the war too, and would probably find the same reasons to blame Nazi Germany.

Parts of South America were German colonies in those days. I�m not sure that Peru was, but I�m sure that WW 2 had effects in Southern America. Effects brought upon them by the Nazi regime supported by the German people, so whopm do you think they would like to blame?

I hope this answers your question, Spirit.

What liberates us is the knowledge of who we were and what we became! FoxLeonard

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Fox have you ever seen those giant electrical ovens they use to dry paint on cars?

Yes, Saturn, I�ve worked as a car and truck painter, so I�ve seen them! But I can�t really understand what it has to do with anything here... FoxLeonard

Spirit!

In the post from you that I refered to, you asked why Saudi Arabians and Peruvians should care about what happened to the Jews. Thereby you seemingly did what too many people do, namely to ignore everything that happened during WW 2 except the part that goes by the name the Jewish Holocaust.

When I tried to point out the relatively small significance of the Jewish Holocaust, I made a short list of all the different groups of people that suffered in the camps, and then I pointed out that it goes by the name of the Jewish Holocaust. A small try at satire, and certainly not a sarchasm towards you personally. Neither was any of the following...

No, genocide is certainly not a uniquely German feature, or uniquely Nazi feature, even if the guys in the Shoa business would like us to believe so. But the question brough up here was if the world has forgiven or should forgive Germany. The guilt of the Khmer Rouge, or China, would be to much of a digression.

Neither is war a uniquely (Nazi) German feature, but, once again, the discussion here, as I saw it, was about Germany�s guilt in WW 2.

There are still many people alive who, in different ways, were affected by WW 2 (and by WW 1, for that matter).

And we who were born after the War(s) are also affected, if indirectly, in the sense that WW 2 (and WW 1) has had a huge impact on the development of the world ever since. Less and less, as the years go by, but still.

The scale of WW 2 was such that it affected the whole world, including the countries who were not participating.

Nazi Germany�s crimes were against humanity,
as all crimes of that scale are. It�s true that such crimes have occured all through history, but I can�t see that the only answer to that is to let it be. This, and many similar, discussions here at totse, and elsewhere, is to me proof enough that we might learn one day. If not, I�ve done my part in giving it a try, call it naive if you like.

The human being is the highest self-regulating system.

FoxLeonard

[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 10-20-2002).]

Germans are guilty of nothing. It's no vice to fight for your survival, its the right of every living creature that ever existed. Germany will be the Vatican of the new era and the majority of the people on Earth will have blonde or red hair and green or blue eyes.

Why do we want men with blonde hair?

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Originally posted by SATURNROCKETX:
Germans are guilty of nothing. It's no vice to fight for your survival, its the right of every living creature that ever existed.

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If this is true, then the Jewish people have done nothing wrong either!

Not even the most outragerous of the Zionists are to be blamed for their deeds!

All according to you, Saturn!

FoxLeonard

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Originally posted by SATURNROCKETX:
Germany will be the Vatican of the new era

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I guess you could put it that way, for a few reasons.

Nazi Germany and the Vatican State collaborated in different ways.

The Knights of Malta, who are close to the Vatican, were involved in the original conspiracy to revive the Holy Roman Empire.
Their aim was for sure also to restore the Vatican�s political power (and they continue to try, together with Opus Dei).

Hitler and his closest associates were, on the other hand, not so fond of the Catholics. But I guess also he would have settled for to keep the Vatican and use the Catholic Church�s power to control the people of the new (Holy) empire.

It�s not only the Lord who works in mysterious ways!

FoxLeonard

quote:

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
It�s not only the Lord who works in mysterious ways.

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I like that.

Nox

So do I. Fox, how do you want that attributed if I quote you?

quote:

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Originally posted by VeneFrigus:
So do I. Fox, how do you want that attributed if I quote you?

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Eh, hhrrrmm... (imagine a fox blushing with pride) I�m honored!

As it is a saying among us foxes, attribute it to us. Like "as the foxes use to say", or similar. Use it, but don�t abuse it.

FoxLeonard