[u]He Is Not A Dictator[/u]

He was the chosen leader of the nation of Iraq after the revolution. The only patially dictatorial act he committed was to ban ex-military personnell from being politicians (as they have a tendency for militarism)

[u]Innocent Until Proven Guilty[u/]

We all bang on about when he killed those Kurds in 1988 with a gas attack. But that was never proven to be him (although Iran was more suspect). Also, the village was also known to be full of terrorists and therefore legitimate targets (although far too many innocents died for it to be forgivable).

[u]Let He Who Is Without Sin Throw The First Stone[/u]

Over the last 10 years USA and Britain have enforced no-fly zones over Southern Iraq without UN consultation. And so far this year over 30 blanket bombings missions have attacked Iraq and killed (watch those figures) more innocent civilians have been killed than have EVER been killed by NBC weapons in history (quick reminder that most of the people killed by NBC weapons have been in Nagasaki and Hiroshima...by USA). On another point, More than twice as many innocent Afghans have been killed by US bombing raids in response to 9-11 than were killed on 9-11.

[u]Conclusion[/u]

Whilst Hussein is not the most peaceful man on Earth, USA are hypocrites to suggest that he should be removed given their past record

All of your [u] disregard one little bitty tiny microscopic point...Saddam lost the Gulf War and all of the things happening now are a result of the peace treaty he (Saddam) signed. Sorry to confuse you with the facts.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
[u]He Is Not A Dictator[/u]

He was the chosen leader of the nation of Iraq after the revolution. The only patially dictatorial act he committed was to ban ex-military personnell from being politicians (as they have a tendency for militarism)

[u]Innocent Until Proven Guilty[u/]

We all bang on about when he killed those Kurds in 1988 with a gas attack. But that was never proven to be him (although Iran was more suspect). Also, the village was also known to be full of terrorists and therefore legitimate targets (although far too many innocents died for it to be forgivable).

[u]Let He Who Is Without Sin Throw The First Stone[/u]

Over the last 10 years USA and Britain have enforced no-fly zones over Southern Iraq without UN consultation. And so far this year over 30 blanket bombings missions have attacked Iraq and killed (watch those figures) more innocent civilians have been killed than have EVER been killed by NBC weapons in history (quick reminder that most of the people killed by NBC weapons have been in Nagasaki and Hiroshima...by USA). On another point, More than twice as many innocent Afghans have been killed by US bombing raids in response to 9-11 than were killed on 9-11.

[u]Conclusion[/u]

Whilst Hussein is not the most peaceful man on Earth, USA are hypocrites to suggest that he should be removed given their past record

---

Is that honestly the best you can do?

Sadam has dissenters tortured. There were photos of a douzine or so political activists hanging from meat hooks. If you want to declare that the US created Sadam by supplying with with weapons against Iran and remaining his ally throughout his worst atrocities - go for it, but don't say anything good about it.

Why is it that all the new left wing people that come to totse have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say?

It's not just the TOTSE left-wingers.

Well maybe he IS a bad geezer. But the terms of the peace treaty were still against UN guidelines. And the coalition's constant "moving the goalposts" is making it impossible for Hussein to seem to do anything other than "disregard" USA. Perhaps if it was clear exactly what he is supposed to do maybe he will do it.

What Hussein does with his own criminals with meathooks is his own business and not ours to interfere with. USA fry criminals in their own sweat with masses of electricity and no-one condemns that as barbaric (which it is).

LEts not just get confused and insult me because I am a Communist. I have said something worthwile. Or is it more worthwile to agree with everyone else?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
And the coalition's constant "moving the goalposts" is making it impossible for Hussein to seem to do anything other than "disregard" USA.

---

Explain "moving the goalposts" please.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Perhaps if it was clear exactly what he is supposed to do maybe he will do it.

---

Read the peace treaty. It can't be more clear than that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
USA fry criminals in their own sweat with masses of electricity and no-one condemns that as barbaric (which it is).

---

We do not use the electric chair anymore. Neither does your country anymore.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
LEts not just get confused and insult me because I am a Communist. I have said something worthwile. Or is it more worthwile to agree with everyone else?

---

Until this post, I had no idea what your political philosophy was. Now that I know, I say in all honesty, I don't care. The only thing I care about is an honest, intellectual, fact filled (not fact free) discussion of the issues. I do not mind having legitimate differences of opinion, but uneducated and/or false drivel is unnecessary.

Still "THE ENEMY"

Nox

>>>He was the chosen leader of the nation of Iraq after the revolution.<<<

That's because he kills his opponents. Kind of hard to pick someone else if you are intimidated by his thugs yes?


>>>Also, the village was also known to be full of terrorists and therefore legitimate targets<<<

So your saying we could have used nerve gas in Afghanistan? Nukes and Chemical weapons? Hey, did you know Hussien used gas against Iranian forces and civilians?


Let He Who Is Without Sin Throw The First Stone

I have something better to use that rock for.

>>>Over the last 10 years USA and Britain have enforced no-fly zones over Southern Iraq without UN consultation.<<<

Silly me, I thought the UN Imposed these on Iraq.

>>>And so far this year over 30 blanket bombings missions have attacked Iraq<<<

Explain to me what blanket bombing is, and while your at it, tell me what SEAD is, and employment of the AGM-88. Go look it up candy-ass.

>>>and killed (watch those figures) more innocent civilians have been killed than have EVER been killed by NBC weapons in history (quick reminder that most of the people killed by NBC weapons have been in Nagasaki and Hiroshima...by USA).<<<

And who told you this? And what were they doing standing by AAA sites?

>>>What Hussein does with his own criminals with meathooks is his own business and not ours to interfere with.<<<

So free speech is a crime? Eat a dick.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NOX:
Explain "moving the goalposts" please.

---

In the game of Soccer, The player must kick a ball into a net which is streched between 2 GOALPOSTS. It is considered unfair to move these goalposts as it means the ball is unlikely to go into the net. USA is "moving the goalposts" because he has stated that Iraq must allow weapons inspectors in. When he said this was okay Bush changed his demands so that Hussein was no longer complying and so claim he is "bobbing and weaving" although he is merely staying still and it is us who are moving around.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NOX:
We do not use the electric chair anymore. Neither does your country anymore.

---

To my knowledge we never have done. But fair enough I did not know you had entered the 20th Century and abolished executions. About bloody time too. Executions are the resort of a tyrannical regime and I am pleased to see USA aren't indulging in such despicable behaviour. BRAVO OLD CHAPS!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
That's because he kills his opponents. Kind of hard to pick someone else if you are intimidated by his thugs yes?

---

Does he really? Yes Okay Mr. Ibelieveanyoldshitrepublcanliarsthrowatme

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
So your saying we could have used nerve gas in Afghanistan? Nukes and Chemical weapons? Hey, did you know Hussien used gas against Iranian forces and civilians?

---

No I didn't know that! Doesn't surprise me he is a bugger for that. And Afghanistan had only one legitimate target and that was Tora Bora as the war was against Al Queada and NOT Afghanistan. The incessant bombing of Kabul et al constitutes a war-crime as there was never any evidence to suggest Al Queada were in Kabul. Especially given that the bombing campaign is still going 10 months later and with full knowledge that Al Queada are not there anymore (that is just genocide as you aren't at war anymore).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Silly me, I thought the UN Imposed these on Iraq.

---

I guess the Bush administration told you that then.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
Explain to me what blanket bombing is, and while your at it, tell me what SEAD is, and employment of the AGM-88. Go look it up candy-ass.[B]

---

If you were using smart weapons how come you kill more Civvies and British soldiers than legitimate targets? SEAD or AGM-88, it is still indiscriminate and 30-odd bombings is 30-odd too many considering you aren't at war with Iraq (I'll go for that genocide thing again)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
[B]And who told you this? And what were they doing standing by AAA sites?

---

Noam Chomsky told me! I think that is not a question of why they were next to AAA sites but a question of what US planes are doing bombing connovations instead of AAA sites.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Boo:
So free speech is a crime? Eat a dick.

---

Is that a response to the quotation? I can't see it myself. speech is speech. Speech is not interference.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
When he said this was okay Bush changed his demands so that Hussein was no longer complying and so claim he is "bobbing and weaving" although he is merely staying still and it is us who are moving around.

---

Thank you for the irrelevant information on soccer. There is, however, no analogy. If you have noticed in the news, Saddam agreed to UNCONDITIONAL inspections and then tried to change the rules to exempt "Presidential Palaces and Estates". O yes, my friend, the goal posts are being moved...but not by the USA.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
I did not know you had entered the 20th Century

---

I can help you on this one too. I'm not sure about your country, but mine entered the twentieth century in the very, very early 1900's.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Executions are the resort of a tyrannical regime and I am pleased to see USA aren't indulging in such despicable behaviour. BRAVO OLD CHAPS!

---

I am pleased to say that one lesson we learned from the British influence in our legal system was the use of capital punishment. However, the framers of our constitution specifically forbade "cruel and unusual punishments. Just to help you out, this was a specific repudiation of the British custom of "drawing and quartering". Some of our readers may not understand this so I will reference the movie "Braveheart" where that form of execution was used on the hero (played by Mel Gibson). His death sentence was that he was to be "drawn and quartered". The only part of the procedure which was omitted was the burning of the genitals upwind of the victim (they did imply the removal of same). I for one am a believer in capital punishment (minus the cruel and unusual). You obviously disagree. That, my friend, is what is called a difference of opinion, and that is what this forum is all about.

Your facts have been weak.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nox:
inspections and then tried to change the rules to exempt "Presidential Palaces and Estates".

---

I expect he thought it was un neccessary to state that such private places were exempt. It is pretty rude to even contemplate visiting such areas.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nox:
There is, however, no analogy.

---

???????????????????????????????????????????????????? Idiot!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nox:
but not by the USA.

---

Again... Idiot! What more is there to say?

And lets get something straight. England is an ancient civilisation going with a history going back for around 3000 years. William Wallace was alive around the 1200AD mark and in medieval England (and the rest of the world), the execution by quite horrific means was considered the correct way (as USAs ritual overthrowing of anyone it dislikes) but that does not make it OK. If you know anything about English history you may be aware that Braveheart is full of shit. William Wallace died in his sleep! You dare to question my facts when you base English history on a movie? And that's all it is, a nice story but a story nonetheless. The last executions in the UK were simultaneous at 8:00 on 13th August 1964 at Walton and Strangeways prisons (Liverpool and Manchester). Nowadays the only countries left with execution are those considered to be despotic regimes of tyranny. Pehaps the USA should stop behaving like an 11th Century Absolutist Monarchy and get with the times. Feel free to verify my weak facts.

quote:

---

Originally posted by FuckStone:
It is pretty rude to even contemplate visiting such areas. [UN weapons inspectors, visiting presidential palaces.]

---

It's impossible for a conquerer to be "rude" to the vanquished.

Firstly, speaking as a brit, executions may be barbaric, but end up being damm effective at removing criminals from society. I can't remember the exact figures, but a large number of convicted criminals still re-offend. Make you own conclusions.

William wallace MAY have died in his sleep (there is no evidence of this) but being hung drawn and quartered was all the rage back then. I think Nox was using it as an example of what happens, not that we done it to wallace.

As far as the whole Iraq thing goes, yes, all parties are moving the goalposts, its in their interests to. The US aren't interested in UN inspectors because its a waste of time, the Iraqis will do anything to get out a tight corner. Last time they allowed inspectors in, nothing was found.

If you read the stories about the inspectors, they would have to turn up at a base and wait around for several days in the car park, blatently watching the Iraqis shifting stuff out the back door.

Whats the point in sending in the UN. Even if they did find something, what would they do, probably impose a few more sanctions, increase the amount of paper work etc.

Uncle, you are half there, i think most of the people coming to TOTSE haven't got a clue, regardles of beliefs. They read something that seems to them, to be so clever, spew it out here and demand respect.

Mantis, I'm referring specifically to rhe recently registered left wingers here. Even the right wing people here, as much as they piss me off, have somewhat of an idea of what's going on around them.

In the past few weeks, new left wing people have to come totse, most of them British or Australian. They love Stalin, love Sadam Huseein, hate America, and have absolutely nothing to contribute to any interesting discussion.

There is a frightening amount of crap posted by people here, most of them from the UK or Australia. Most Americans don't think of the British or Australians as enemies or idiots, but that seems to be the label applied to Americans by the other side quite frequently and without any basis.

To claim that Saddam Hussein is a legitimate ruler is the pinnacle of stupidity. Legitimacy is dependent on the definition you ascribe to it, but most of us here in liberal democracy land agree that legitimacy derives from the consent of the governed. Since not everyone can be happy, we've settled on the concept of majority rule, to give maximum satisfaction to the broadest spectrum of citizens. Saddam's rule is maintained by a very large and active secret police, feared by nearly everyone for its arbitrary right to imprison, torture, and execute. Saddam may have the consent of the members of his Takriti clan, but most Iraqis are not going to voice their true opinions for fear of reprisals (and I promise you, northern Kurds and southern Shi'ites do not consent to Saddam's rule). Saddam has NEVER held a free, fair election (i.e. where there was another candidate on the ballot and he didn't win with 99.9% of the vote). He is not legitimate. And he should be removed, if only to satisfy the utilitarian desire for secure oil.

Today, in case anyone was wondering, the Iraqi government officially challenged the US government to a duel. That's right, Saddam and Dubya should meet in a neutral place, choose the same weapon, and go head to head under the supervision of UN sec gen Koffi Annan. The countries' VPs should also duel. This way, the suffering or Iraqis and Americans can be kept to a minimum (here's a suggestion to limit Iraqi suffering: cease programs of WMD. Desist all engagement of US and UK warplanes patrolling the no-fly zones in enforcement of UN resolution 688. Allow immediate "unfettered" and unlimited access to sites where WMD are suspected by UNSCOM teams.)

How anyone can defend a man like Saddam Hussein and a regime like Iraq's is beyond me....

And another thing---anyone who claims that something is true because "Noam Chomsky told me" should have their head examined. Noam Chomsky is a radical, America-hating wingnut, a conspiracy-theorist of the grandest order. Even his own ideologists don't take him seriously. He would never be published in any respectable leftist journal, much less an academic one. And if you're inquisitive enough, you can find out for yourself from sources other than the meanie Bush administration that the UN sanctioned the use of force against Iraq, as well the the enforcement of no-fly zones in the north to protect against Iraqi repression of Kurdish refugees. I know you're suspicious of sources because you like to read people like Noam Chomsky, but sometimes what you read is true (especially if its published by the United Nations). Don't be such a simpleton.

The UN did in fact sanctify the sanctions. They even have it on their website if anyone can be bothered to find it.

Uncle, i know you were talking about lefties, but don't you think its everyone else as well. Have you been to spurious recently.

Although i find your opinions to be worrying, i think that this forum has seen a complete u turn, it used to be everyone against spirit, now its everyone against you.

I don't respect your opinions, but i do respect the way you have at least thought out your theories and argue them well.

Vox, i hope you understand that i am a pro-american brit.

Noam Chomsky is one of the most important intellectauls of our century, for his linguistic and political theories. He's one of the most respected leftists in the world, and he backs up his views amazingly well and makes the strongest point I've ever seen anyone makes.

He's not a wing-nut" because he's not going around slaughtering the families of embassadors in the name of socialism. He believes in basic democracy, and he doesn't hate America. He simply believes our government is illegitimate and calls for true democracy in the United States. He's not even a socialist, he believes in a mixed market. Just because his views are subversive doesn't mean he's stupid.

If you actually tihnk he's stupid, try debating with him. I dare you.

Mantis, alot of people here or dumb. I can think of a few close minded middle of the road right wingers that actually take George W. Bush seriously - something that you can't say about most real conservatives in this country.

The people i'm referring to are a specific wave of idiots that have come in here in the last weeks. People were stupid before, but these dumbasses - like the creator of this topic, Freeman Hercule, Johnny Doe, FuckAuthority, ect. They're left wing and their idiotic. If I ever turned into a capitalist, it would be because I don't want my tax dollars supporting these idiots.

Chomsky is one of the most important minds of the century like Mother Teresa is Playmate of the Year. Anyone can cook up fantasy gobbledegook about the US and its media maniuplation and its shadow wars and its global quest for conquest.

If I were to debate Noam, I would ask him three questions:

Who pays for your research?

What is YOUR ideal government?

What do the academic right, left, and in between think of your ideas?

Hilarity is sure to ensue.

Do you like Fuad Ajami as well? Another crackpot.

I have to leave now...I will be back though. This is an interesting post sometimes, with a few intelligent posters (mostly those with more than 1000 posts and not named Chuck or Mouse). Look forward to your opinions. Keep it civil.

Cheers.

>>>But fair enough I did not know you had entered the 20th Century and abolished executions.<<<

One could argue that the Royal Families are a thing of the past as well.

>>>Does he really? Yes Okay Mr. Ibelieveanyoldshitrepublcanliarsthrowatme<<<

That's common knowledge in nearly every country around the world. the fact that you don't know this shows you have fallen victim to Arab State controlled media, or are blatently ignorant of the world 10K beyond your house. And I'm being quite generous with that number.

>>>No I didn't know that! Doesn't surprise me he is a bugger for that. And Afghanistan had only one legitimate target and that was Tora Bora as the war was against Al Queada and NOT Afghanistan.<<<

I still have a map showing where Bin Laden's terrorist camps were, And most were far away from Tora Bora. You really have no knowledge of anything do you?


>>>The incessant bombing of Kabul et al constitutes a war-crime as there was never any evidence to suggest Al Queada were in Kabul.<<<

True, unfortuantly, the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden. Therefore Kabul was a legal target. What is not legal and against the Geneva Convention is hiding Tanks in or next to Schools, Mosques, hospitals, and homes. Collateral damage is unavoidable, so is the enemy proclaiming we violate rules of war, And suckering in any idiot who would believe the sky was green if an Anti-American activist told them it was.

>>>Especially given that the bombing campaign is still going 10 months later and with full knowledge that Al Queada are not there anymore<<<

Then who is STILL attacking troops then? And the bombing campaign has slowed down considerably, due to the Taliban being gone.

>>>(that is just genocide as you aren't at war anymore).<<<

No, Genocide is the attempt to wipe out a race of people. See Ethnic cleansing. I love how you High moral PC turds throw that word around without even knowing what it means.


>>>I guess the Bush administration told you that then.<<<

Actually, The UN, via their offical website. Why don't you go and take a look?


>>>Noam Chomsky told me! I think that is not a question of why they were next to AAA sites but a question of what US planes are doing bombing connovations instead of AAA sites.<<<

Hate to tell you this, but good old Noam needs to know what guides an AGM-88 to it's target. I guess you don't know either.


>>>If you were using smart weapons how come you kill more Civvies and British soldiers than legitimate targets?<<<

A few incidents of accidentally bombing civvies and friendly troops is a sad occurence. Notice the word "Accidental" I say this to show you a difference between us and the USSR, whose Mi-24 and attack pilots would level whole villages if suspected guerillas were thought to be present.

>>>SEAD or AGM-88, it is still indiscriminate and 30-odd bombings is 30-odd too many considering you aren't at war with Iraq (I'll go for that genocide thing again)<<<

Indiscriminate? What's indiscriminate of attacking an SAM battery after being fired on?

>>>Is that a response to the quotation? I can't see it myself. speech is speech. Speech is not interference.<<<

Most of those hanging on those meat hooks were put there for speaking out, or not supporting Saddam.

>>>William Wallace was alive around the 1200AD mark and in medieval England (and the rest of the world), the execution by quite horrific means was considered the correct way (as USAs ritual overthrowing of anyone it dislikes) but that does not make it OK. If you know anything about English history you may be aware that Braveheart is full of shit. William Wallace died in his sleep!<<<


Actually, Willam Wallace was believed to be born around 1272. As for him dying in his sleep, This is false. Wallace Tower? Smithfield? do those ring a bell? I can't believe you don't even know your own history.

Noam Chomsky is renowned and respected as a genius. You haven't been around much. Read "Neccesary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies" and "Secrets, Lies, and Democracy." He answers all your questions within them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
If I ever turned into a capitalist, it would be because I don't want my tax dollars supporting these idiots.

---

Ah hah hah!

Just when you think every conceivably stupid thing has been said - you produce more.

What tax dollars? You're a student. Your employment consists of a low-paying part-time job - AT BEST!

A few months back, you said you worked in a factory, but I don't believe you. I don't think you have a clue; about how much REAL working people value their earnings.

Redistribution of wealth - Ah hah hah!

[In the voice of AuntNasty asking for her allowance]

"Daddy, can I have $20?"

[Pop puts down his copy of Property and Equality in Utopia, and gives his pipe a puff]

"Ok, as long as you agree to send half of it to Fidel"

quote:

---

Originally posted by user X:

"Ok, as long as you agree to send half of it to Fidel"

---

But he said Fidel wasn't his hero, which isn't true when you look at his past posts glorifying him.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
I expect he thought it was un neccessary to state that such private places were exempt. It is pretty rude to even contemplate visiting such areas.

---

Since you fail to follow the news, I will help you out. Over 1000 buildings and sites he personally hasn't 'visited' in years.

My father used to tell me... If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck...I'm sure you can fill in the rest.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
???????????????????????????????????????????????????? Idiot!

---

My sentiments about you exactly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Again... Idiot! What more is there to say?

---

Actually, there is a lot you could say (but won't). Because if you were to answer I would chop that answer to shreds also.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
You dare to question my facts when you base English history on a movie?

---

Nice try dummy. I only used the movie as visual representation of the act of drawing and quartering. I did not use the movie as 'history'. Those are your words which you are trying to attribute to me. And you call me an idiot?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Feel free to verify my weak facts.

---

I've already addressed that. Too bad you can't comprehend that which you read.

Nox

I've defended Fidel in the face of unfair critisism, and I agree with alot of his proggressive ideals. He's not my hero, in that I don't idolize him, and have no desire to be like him.

The tax dollars thing was a joke. Calm down you damn nitpicker.

quote:

---

Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
I've defended Fidel in the face of unfair critisism, and I agree with alot of his proggressive ideals. He's not my hero, in that I don't idolize him, and have no desire to be like him.

The tax dollars thing was a joke. Calm down you damn nitpicker.

---

I'm a nitpicker? I'm usually not, however, You still don't understand what an illegal immigrant is. Oh well, different topic.

You can rip me to shreds if you lie. But you haven't yet. Watch a speech by George W Bush next time he's on. And you will find that none of his arguments are substatiated. It is these "facts" that you quote to me here.

Royal Families ARE a thing of the past. But they are still a family and thats all. They are as powerful as David and Victoria Beckham and they fulfill the same role, as a target for media attention.

Noam Chomsky is arguing exactly the same way as your beloved government but unlike your beloved government it is backed up by facts. Surely I can believe that USA have killed maybe billions of civilians given that every month or so you hear another piece of news about how the US army have hit an allied supply truck or a wedding or British troops or whatever. During the Gulf War more British troops were killed by the US than by Iraq!

Your intelligence is not measured by the number of posts but more by the coherence within them which is sadly lacking.

How am I victim of Arab media? I have no access to Arab media (Sheffield has a high Arab population but no arab media to my knowledge)If you have a map showing Bin Laden's terrorist camps then you ought to show it to your Government as they have admited to not knowing the whereabouts of most of them (except for Tora Bora)And teh Taliban expressly agreed to hand over OBL (or does your censored news filter that)and it is bullshit taht tanks were next to schools to explain why Americna smart weapons are incapable of hitting what they are aimed at. USA seem hell bent on annihalating the entire Islamic population. Now I call that a second Holocaust. And NEVER trust official websites, nothing is more full of propaganda.

I believe that the USA have deliberately targetted civilian areas because the technology is very advanced. (rhetoric time) Why are there never any AAA sites in these bomb sites? And why do hundreds of civilians get killed each time? Perhaps the USAF are just having a laugh. These accidents seem to be far too regular, at least USSR (god only knows why an historical nation was brought up) admit to being indiscriminate in their bombings, that is the only difference, USA lie!

Yes it is a popular myth that Wallace was killed by Longshanks put about by Longshanks himself to make him seem formidable, but at the time he was supposed to be hung he is known to have been the Borderlands. Never heard of Smithfield and it is Scottish history not English.

Nox! Do you presume to educate me about my own history? Do you comprehend what 800 years is? The England of 1300 was a completely different England to Modern times. It has turned from a absolute monarchy to a Republic (with a remnant Royal Family for the Americans to come and look at) ao you cannot compare. USA on the other hand has progressed relatively slowly and still allows weapon possesion like in the Mid Ages. Is this to compensate for your lack of History?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vox:
If I were to debate Noam, I would ask him three questions:

Who pays for your research?

...

---

I seem to remember coming across a site offering the opportunity to debate against Noam and other prmoinent leftists...for a fee. I declined.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Nox! Do you presume to educate me about my own history?

---

The only presumption about you that I can make is your unmitigated idiocy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Is this to compensate for your lack of History?

---

Boy, I have forgotten more history than you "presume" to know.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by FuckOffandDie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vox:
If I were to debate Noam, I would ask him three questions:

Who pays for your research?

...

---

I seem to remember coming across a site offering the opportunity to debate against Noam and other prmoinent leftists...for a fee. I declined.

[/QUOTE]

quite true...this genius of the twentieth century lives off of those people silly enough to listen to his nonsense, buy his rags, and pay him to debate.

Yes yeas Nox Im an idiot, you've said that already. You still haven't given me a cohesive argument that isn't full of lies.

Noam must be an idiot too because he doesn't listen to all the Bullshit either!

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Noam Chomsky is arguing exactly the same way as your beloved government but unlike your beloved government it is backed up by facts. Surely I can believe that USA have killed maybe billions of civilians given that every month or so you hear another piece of news about how the US army have hit an allied supply truck or a wedding or British troops or whatever. During the Gulf War more British troops were killed by the US than by Iraq!

---

I won't even touch the Noam CHomsky issue...nor non-issue. I don't go by what my "beloved government" says, but by what independent observers in academia, watchdog groups, and observers like MEMRI (which translates Arabic newspapers---official gov't ones in the ME and independent ones in England---and sermons so those who don't understand the language can understand the violence and hate these publications and speeches contain).

The United States has killed billions of civilians? Is this just in Afghanistan, or are you counting Iraq, too? Carpet bombing could theoretically kill billions, I suppose, if the carpet were laid across the entire eastern seabord of China and into Malaysia. If you base your numbers of civilians killed on Taliban reports or Palestinian claims, you should recall the astronomical numbers thrown out by people like Noam Chomsky in the early days of the campaign in Afghanistan (10,000 innocents butchered!) only to be found utterly false, or those claims of massacre howled in Jenin (hundreds of old women and children slain!) only to be refuted by actual death tolls of under one hundred fighting-age Palestinian men (verified by the UN and correspondents, who usually seize upon any chance to glorify carnage when it occurs. And please, no claims that Israelis magically removed the corpses before they could be found...perhaps the vicious IDF monsters barbecue and eat them, that's the ticket).

People who claim coherence and argue with such lack of understanding and logic are repugnant.

Cheers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
Yes yeas Nox Im an idiot, you've said that already. You still haven't given me a cohesive argument that isn't full of lies.

---

It is really easy to say lies in general. Specifically state what I've said that was a lie (exclude my value judgements on your intellectual prowess/lack thereof).

Nox

quote:

---

...but by what independent observers in academia, watchdog groups, and observers like MEMRI (which translates Arabic newspapers---official gov't ones in the ME and independent ones in England---and sermons so those who don't understand the language can understand the violence and hate these publications and speeches contain).

---

MEMRI is an Israeli organization, which NEVER translates any Hebrew articles which happen to have some pretty not-so-nice things in them about non-Jews. They are very selective, Vox, being an Israeli propaganda organization, after all.


More info...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html


Oh, do you think MEMRI would put out stuff like these little gems from a major Israeli source?


�As any prostitute can tell you, for a fee they will agree to do anything you want. The Europeans are really a low, immoral people who would sell their mother... and then deliver"

�These are people of ultimate evil as the beast stays just below the surface, ready to savage, ready to kill the Jew. The planet would be well rid of the European predator. Perhaps we will be fortunate to live in such interesting times (an old Chinese curse), to see the decline and disappearance of the graveyard called Europe. The Europeans, the English and the American Arabists once again come together and crack the whip over the Jews.�

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 10-04-2002).]

That rules out all of your comments then doesn't it Nox

Since military service is mandatory for Israeli citizens, due in no small part to their bellicose neighbors, it comes as no surprise to me that some of MEMRIs founders are former military officers. The article does contain one significant quote:

"Nobody, so far as I know, disputes the general accuracy of Memri's translations..."

So Arabs really are talking about eradicating jews, the pestilence of the earth?

MEMRI is not an "Israeli organization." It is an American group, claims non-profit exemption in Washington, and has offices abroad, including in Jerusalem.

Your quotes are not cited and prove nothing. Prostitutes are untrustworthy? So? I agree. Europeans have been murderous to Jews? Quite true, historically, and those that kill Jewish people and torch their synagogues should be punished to the extent of the law.

Your points are weak. And I do now deny the presence of right-wing extremists in Israel. They are certainly there, and probably have their own pamphlets you can quote all you like.

By the way, here is the response to your guardian article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,778373,00.html

MEMRI frequently translates Arab sources. Does it, or does it not translate inflammatory HEBREW sources which might be insulting to the very people it translates for? If it does not translate inflammatory HEBREW sources, it is quite selective.

Your dismissal with the call for genocide to the Europeans is taken notice of.

Here is the site the quotes are taken from -
http://www.gamla.org.il/

And the article, a very hateful and paranoid piece, I might add -
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/1998/sept/win3.htm

quote:

---

Prostitutes are untrustworthy? So? I agree. Europeans have been murderous to Jews? Quite true, historically, and those that kill Jewish people and torch their synagogues should be punished to the extent of the law.

---

You poor, poor person. You're either a Jew or a hopeless Judeophile self-hater if you didn't notice the hatred in the quotes. The article was not referring to prostitutes or prosecuting criminals. It refers to all Europeans, as a whole. Let me help you out here.

What would you think of these quotes?

"The Jews are really a low, immoral people who would sell their mother... and then deliver"

"The planet would be well rid of the Jewish predator. Perhaps we will be fortunate to live in such interesting times (an old Chinese curse), to see the decline and disappearance of the graveyard called Israel."

Let me guess, horrid anti-semitism! Oh, the terrible hatred for the poor Jews! The writer of this is obviously a murderous bigot!!

Yet, when it's referring to Europeans, your knee-jerk response is... so what?


[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 10-04-2002).]

I was wondering how long it would take you to call me a Jew or a Judeophile. Maybe I'm just coopted by the shadow government? Maybe I'm AMAN, here to corrupt english speakers.

There is a difference, whether you see it or not, between exhorting poor and starving people to mass murder against another people on the base of their religion by claiming them as mortal enemies, and the disgust the author of your extreme article shows toward those who shirk from the responsibility for their actions:

"Switzerland is furious over being discovered stealing money from the dead Jews even as they laundered gold for the Germans.(1) European insurance companies are being forced to face up to paying the Holocaust victims' heirs for the deaths of the 6 million.(2) Volkswagen is creating a modest $12 million fund for Nazi-era slave laborers, most of whom were worked to death.(3) Austria moves toward returning art works confiscated by the Nazis and held by the Austrians.(4) The Red Cross was a silent witness to the Holocaust, and failed in modern history's worst humanitarian crisis, in effect, collaborating with the Nazis. (5) The Vatican reportedly hid at least 200 million Swiss francs (now worth $170 million) for the deadly Utashas of Croatia, plus gold ingots shipped by the fascist Romanian government to Swiss Banks - according to a declassified US Treasury memo of 10/21/46. (6)

France has been exposed as having expropriated all Jewish wealth after they rounded up their Jews for transfer to the incoming Germans. It was reported that Francois Mitterand seized Jewish apartments while he was Mayor of Paris - distributing them to friends, relations and important business men. Yes, they (the Europeans) were all involved in massive theft and they hate the Jews even more now as their venality is exposed to the world.

Now the Europeans are openly attacking the Jewish State both in the mode of Jews hatred and the approval (read: contracts) they hope to receive from the Arabs through the abortive Oslo Accords. They hide behind that high level of approval for Arafat and his Palestinian terrorists. Suddenly, a terrible murderer and a violent people are the darlings of the Europeans as their present instrument of hatred.

I think, if oil was not underfoot and money to be made in selling weapons, those sensitive, noble Europeans would view Arabs as the English do...wogs or ragheads. As any prostitute can tell you, for a fee they will agree to do anything you want. The Europeans are really a low, immoral people who would sell their mother...and then deliver."

This article was not written as a call to arms, like so many friday sermons from Palestinian, Egyptian, and Saudi mosques. It is a description of the unwillingness of certain Europeans to admit their crimes and pay retribution, and an admittedly backward vision of divine punishment that should occur. Is it genocide to predict Armageddon?

You won't drag me into an argument about the reality of the Holocaust. I had no idea this post attracted so many small-minded white supremacists (not to label you as one, Mouse, but there are others here who fit the bill quite nicely you must admit). And there is a double dealing going on with European powers and their weapon-buying, oil-trading "friends" in the middle east.

Collective security and international cooperation are not on the minds of French and German politicos when they argue for more time, more negotiations, more diplomacy. They function as does every other state: to preserve their national interests. In their case, it is the protection of their corrupt oil, arms, and building contracts. Morality has no place in foreign policy.

Cheers.

Vox clamantis in deserto.

VOX POPULI, VOX DEI!

[This message has been edited by Vox (edited 10-04-2002).]

Europe has paid BILLIONS to plenty Jewish organizations, BILLIONS more than what was even owed! Poland was barely free of Soviet tyranny before the Holocaust Industry marched over to demand reparations! Europe has put up Holocaust Museums, created laws that put people in jail for simply questioning holocaust dogma or insulting Jews. ISRAEL would be NOTHING without all the money pouring in from Americans, Europeans, and Brits. Yet, this hateful little Jew still calls for Divine Retribution upon all of Europe, and slanders all of it's people as hateful murderers. Can we say "projection"? This guy projects his own hate for all gentiles as the hatred of Europeans!

Edit: I'd love to see what this guy thinks of Israel paying reparations to the Palestinians, being so quick to judge every European for not paying ENOUGH to Jewish extortionists!

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 10-04-2002).]

He also publishes on an obscure internet page, in 1998---not in 2002, in the New York Times front page (the equivalent of al-Akhbar and the other dailies MEMRI constantly translates).

Your attempt to discredit MEMRI was blocked, by the way, and don't cry "Jew liar!"

Cheers.

Comparing the European engineering and complicity in the murder of five million jews to Israeli self-defense is ludicrous.

Let's go over this article, which Vox finds not a bit hateful and slanderous...

They hide behind that high level of approval for Arafat and his Palestinian terrorists. Suddenly, a terrible murderer and a violent people are the darlings of the Europeans as their present instrument of hatred.

Yet, this guy has no issue with Israeli's electing and supporting the war criminal Ariel Sharon, I'll bet.

As any prostitute can tell you, for a fee they will agree to do anything you want. The Europeans are really a low, immoral people who would sell their mother...and then deliver.

Nope, it's not about prostitutes. It's ALL EUROPEANS, all LOW, IMMORAL people.

How easily any sense of humanity of civilization slips away from their face, leaving only the beast. This beast has many faces and names. Sometimes they are called Germans, Poles, Croatians, Ukrainians... While at other times they became the Church, the Red Cross, or Prime Ministers, Kings, Fuhrer. Then, in a quick change, we see some Americans, French, English and, finally, there is the contaminated Jew called the Leftist. It doesn't really matter, this name or that. Underneath there is strand, a bond that society teaches children to hate the "other" - the different ones.

All gentiles are beasts who hate Jews, and are bonded by hate! Anyone want to bet that this guy got a Jewish education that actually taught him to hate all non-Jews?

These are people of ultimate evil as the beast stays just below the surface, ready to savage, ready to kill the Jew. The planet would be well rid of the European predator. Perhaps we will be fortunate to live in such interesting times (an old Chinese curse), to see the decline and disappearance of the graveyard called Europe.

Europeans are "THE ULTIMATE EVIL" and the eradication of them would be "a good thing"!

Europeans are really an ugly bunch who have, through the centuries, killed each other with certain glee when they were not killing the Jews.

Yup, that's all Europeans do. Run around killing Jews and each other, in an irrational haze of hatred. Nevermind building some of the best civilizations on earth that Jews have used to profit from!

Perhaps, having failed the test of humanity and decency, retribution will come in the form of incurable plagues, vast storms followed by crop-killing drought. Although it is merely an expression of wishful thinking, has anyone noted the surge of unusually destructive weather, coupled with the growing crisis in world financial centers - both of which often precede chaos?!

Blah blah, Europeans have no "humanity", and "G-D" should kill them all...

If Europe suffers the ravages coming to them, then justice may have been served, in part.

It would be an act of "Justice" for all Europeans to die. Blah .. blah.. blah..


Seriously, you must be a Jew not to see anything insulting about this article!

quote:

---

Comparing the European engineering and complicity in the murder of five million jews to Israeli self-defense is ludicrous.

---

Since when is colonizing an area and displacing all the indigenous inhabitants from the land by terrorizing them slaughters of entire towns, "self defense"? How is bulldozing homes to make way for Jewish only settlements in the occupied territories "self defense"? The "self defense" just doesn't fly in the face of historical fact and present reality.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 10-04-2002).]

Yup, I'd say that was a pretty inflammatory article!

Now, if that one was allowed in English, I'd be VERY interested in reading the translations from HEBREW articles that aren't translated, as it's well-known even by Israelis that the most "controversial" articles are often not translated. Yes, I'd be VERY interested in knowing what they say in Hebrew. Think MEMRI will oblige, or are they too busy pouring over every Arab news source to even look at the Israeli ones? Selective, maybe?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
That rules out all of your comments then doesn't it Nox

---

No.

Point out the lies please.

Nox

I never said I agreed with anything in this article. And I am not Jewish. You are so simple minded you make me sick.

"Yet, this guy has no issue with Israeli's electing and supporting the war criminal Ariel Sharon, I'll bet."

First of all, Sharon is not a war criminal, has never been indicted as much (not to mention convicted) by any legitimate international tribunal.

"Nope, it's not about prostitutes. It's ALL EUROPEANS, all LOW, IMMORAL people."

Calling someone low and immoral is very different from accusing them of being baby-murderers and blood-drinkers and spiders and cannibals, all the rage in Arab articles (much like Nazi propaganda of the thirties and forties).

"All gentiles are beasts who hate Jews, and are bonded by hate! Anyone want to bet that this guy got a Jewish education that actually taught him to hate all non-Jews?"

This guy doesn't once mention that all gentiles are to be hated. He says that they come in many nationalities and organizations.

This article uses far too much religous symbolism for me or anyone else to take it as seriously as you do. I don't understand your fixation on this one obscure note as proof of Jewish hatred, but I'll debunk it nonetheless.

The "Beast" as you might or might not know is in reference to Satan. The "Beast" appears in many forms, some of those happen to be european nationalities. Take away their false faces, and you see Satan beneath. Satan is the "ultimate evil" you obsess over. It is the same evil that will be confronted when plague and pestilence visit the earth, and God destroys it once and for all.

Frankly, this guy is not a political commentator. He is giving a sermon about one part of society that will face divine retribution come judgement day. He is not the voice of the majority of Jewish people in Israel, the US, Europe, or anywhere else. The only people who listen to this sort of drivel are extreme right-wingnut Jews, and obsessive, confused Islamists and their apologists like you.

Mullahs and other Islamofacist hardliners in the Middle East, however, ARE the voice of "reason" in their playpens. People do listen to them, and follow their EXPLICIT instructions to commit mass murder and, if they could, genocide.

If you want to argue about religious babble, I will not cooperate. Show me some official, political statements by Israeli or Jewish leaders that advocate the destruction of Arabs and I will rebut. Otherwise, cease your ramblings about secretive manipulations and how "what people think is the truth really isn't, because those jews are so good at manipulation," because it's a load of crap.

Cheers.

quote:

---

Show me some official, political statements by Israeli or Jewish leaders that advocate the destruction of Arabs and I will rebut.

---

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

David Ben-Gurion, one of the father founders of Israel, described Zionist aims in 1948 thus: "A Christian state should be established [in Lebanon], with its southern border on the Litani river. We will make an alliance with it. When we smash the Arab Legion's strength and bomb Amman, we will eliminate Transjordan too, and then Syria will fall. If Egypt still dares to fight on, we shall bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Cairo... And in this fashion, we will end the war and settle our forefathers' account with Egypt, Assyria, and Aram"

"[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts"', New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"The only solution is Eretz Israel [Greater Israel], or at least Western Eretz Israel [all the land west of Jordan River], without Arabs. There is no room compromise on this point ... We must not leave a single village, not a single tribe." Joseph Weitz, Director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency charged with acquiring Palestinian land, Circa 194. Machover Israca, January 5, 1973 p.2.

"Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same." Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya [immigration], and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country." Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." (Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum")

�Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...� � Yitzhak Shamir
Israeli Prime Minister, Zionist terrorist
in an August 1943 article titled �Terror�, written for Hazit
the journal of Lehi, the terrorist organization he belonged to.

quote:

---

First of all, Sharon is not a war criminal, has never been indicted as much (not to mention convicted) by any legitimate international tribunal.

---

How about an Israeli commision that recognized his responsibility for Sabra and Shatila, thus causing him to resign from his post before becoming PM? The only reason that he hasn't been indicted is because some people are beyond international law, such as any "friend" of the US

Where did you find those, "My Big Book Of Jewish Hate" ?

You do yourself no justice. Not once legitimate quote.

Every quote by Ben-Gurion or Begin or any other official for that matter advocates allowing Jews to live in Israel without Arabs...logical extension of the fact that when there are Arabs, they tend to murder Jews. Not once to they call for genocide, or even killing. You are a fan of taking quotes out of context and portraying them as proof of a certain point of view. More likely, you are not very well read, so you consult your little Hamas pamphlet and quote from it.

I'm sure if you tried harder you could find many more Rabbis who ask for the deaths of Palestinians. They are not the voice of Israel, and represent a small portion of Jews worldwide.

You probably won't ever change you mind, until you are shocked into it by something sudden, drastic, and violent. I hope you stay in your bubble, with your toy AK47 and your green armband, and live a full and happy life.

This discussion is over.

Cheers.

Vox Populi, Vox Dei

LoL! I'm not an Arab or Muslim, Jew. I'm White. You're just following the stereotypical Zionist debate tactics.

These are...

Ridicule - Insult - Slander - Lie - Deny

Well, you seem certain that I'm Jewish...too bad you're wrong. They obviously don't have much of an educational system in Canada. Unfortunately, they seem to breed idiots and nazis pretty well, though. And you don't need to be Arab to be muslim, just like you don't need to be Arab OR Muslim to be intellectually deficient.

By the way, I've never slandered, lied, or denied anything you've said; merely disproved. And you've never bothered to use evidence to disprove anything I've said. So go back to the gay porn you've got open in your other browser and see if it agrees with you. I do ridicule and insult your misguided arrogance, however.

Mouse is an appropriate sobriquet for you, my tiny friend.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vox:
Well, you seem certain that I'm Jewish...too bad you're wrong. They obviously don't have much of an educational system in Canada. (This coming from the guy that said there is no zionist lobby in the US) Unfortunately, they seem to breed idiots and nazis pretty well, though. And you don't need to be Arab to be muslim, just like you don't need to be Arab OR Muslim to be intellectually deficient.

By the way, I've never slandered, lied, or denied anything you've said; merely disproved. (Vox's method of "disproving" something involves just saying "nuh-uh it's not true!") And you've never bothered to use evidence to disprove anything I've said. (I suppose links and quotes aren't enough for ya) So go back to the gay porn you've got open in your other browser and see if it agrees with you. I do ridicule and insult your misguided arrogance, however.

Mouse is an appropriate sobriquet for you, my tiny friend.

---

Ridicule - Insult - Slander - Lie - Deny


By the way, even if you aren't religiously Jewish, you're very much a psychological Heeb. Do you think Jews are the "Chosen Ones"? Is that why you think it's ok for Israelis to do and say things towards non-Jews that you would decry as anti-semitic when done towards Jews?


[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 10-04-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vox:
Mouse is an appropriate sobriquet for you, my tiny friend.

---

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!

*Nox returns the compliment*

Nox

!!!!!!!!!!NOX IS THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
!!!!!!!!!!NOX IS THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!

---

True.

However, most of the regular Totse posters on this forum would say that Mouse is more like Nox now than Nox is like the old Mouse. Therefore, Mouse is becoming the enemy. It's great isn't it?

Nox

quote:

---

ORIGINALLY posted by Me!:
!!!!!!!!!!NOX IS THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!

---

I can't let The Mouse take credit for that. It's my catchphrase. But Mouse id merely YOUR enemy Nox, which makes him my ally. And seeing as I am the quotee of
[QUOTE]still originally posted by Me!:
!!!!!!!!!!NOX IS THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!
[/QUOTE
then TheMouse cannot be the enemy (I am new to this forum so I judge you both on your present incarnations)

I just think it should be a new forum catchphrase.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChuckStone:
which makes him my ally.

---

As usual, you are wrong. Mouse is female.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
I just think it should be a new forum catchphrase.

---

And mouse could be the mod.

Nox

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
LoL! I'm not an Arab or Muslim, Jew. I'm White. You're just following the stereotypical Zionist debate tactics.

These are...

Ridicule - Insult - Slander - Lie - Deny

---

Just like Unclenasty wanting to be black, you want to be Arab. You are as confused as he is. So sad. You should seek help. Better yet, travel to Pakistan. you'll get your "help" there.

How do I want to be Arab? Explain this, Joe. Are only Arabs allowed to dislike Israel?

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheMouse:
How do I want to be Arab? Explain this, Joe. Are only Arabs allowed to dislike Israel?

---

The word isn't allowed, it's "Are Arabs the Only ones who hate Israel"? Since in the past you have stated you wouldn't mind it being wiped off the face of the earth, I put you in with the same, ignorant, dimwitted, masses who will believe anything their Arab state controlled media tells them to take all eyes off the corrupt and worthless politicians who keep them poor and interpret the Koran to the mostly illiterate masses, and who invoke allah to destroy their enemies on one hand, then come off as "friendly" on the other.

Americans and Brits all fall into the trap of believing any old shite thrown at them. So therefore... anyone who doesn't baa like the best of 'em MUST be an Arab (or Communist 30 years ago, or Whoever the current enemy is). This is just like 1984 (George Orwell----1948) and the fucking sheep will believe what they are told even if it is in direct contradiction of what they believed previously ("Communism was never gonna work" only about 20 years after they were so shit scared of Communism that they were painting their doors white to hide under) and the previous belief fades away without a trace and no-one even questions it.

The point is you don't have to be an Arab to be against particular US policies (like persecution of the Muslims) but you just have to disconnect your mind from the "National Mind" and think for yourself

(NB this probably doesn't apply to most people here as a modecum of intelligence is advised to be on the political forum)

For the record, TheMouse is one of those names (like Nick or Leslie) that has no obvious gender. As a male myself I would call you all he or him. I really hope TheMouse hasn't taken any offence.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOX IS THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My opinions on Israel have nothing to do with state media and the Koran (which I have never read, nor have much interest in). I wouldn't care if Israel ceased to exist because it's been quite a few decades now, and has proven itself to be incapable of being anything but a parasite of the US and a blistering, warmongering sore in the region. Even after they got their "state", they are incapable of leaving Westen countries alone. They still lobby the fuck out of our countries and try to control shit here, so what's the fucking point? Fuck 'em. Let them fend on their own.

Actually, it's quite funny that you would say that my opinions on Israel are based on state controlled media, because most of the media in Canada is owned by one fucking Jew family, the Aspers of CanWest, who has an official policy of not allowing editorials that are critical of Israel. Yup, over 60% of Canadian media is owned by a Jew who won't allow critical opinions of Israel in his paper. What is this guy doing in Canada in the first place? What the fuck good is Israel to me, if the Zionist Jews won't GO to Israel and leave us alone? No good at all. That's why I couldn't give a flying fuck about Israel.

Neutrality with Arab nations and no Israel vs Hostility with Arab nations and unconditional support of Israel.

I'm choosing neutrality. Fuck Israel.

TheMouse
I LIKE YOU

is there any western
who is still blinded by the zionist propaganda
i must add that over history there was always occupation and resistance so why do you ask why palestinian kill Israeli civilians?
the answer is simply because Jews doesn't own the land if they wan't to spare the life of their children
they must return to their original countries and invest your welth there
so the logical answer to occupation is resistance with all it's drama.
being jewsish means your relligion is jewish
and a state based on relligion is always a disaster imagine if muslims wanted to make one country then they will occupy all the world and this is inaceptable even if i'm muslim it is really a hypocrisy that most western countries seperate between relligion and state and they support a relligion based state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>>Americans and Brits all fall into the trap of believing any old shite thrown at them<<<

This from the same person claiming the Cuban people are prospering.

>>>Communism was never gonna work<<<

It wasn't, so what is your point?

>>>and a blistering, warmongering sore in the region.<<<

Yes, Israel started the 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982 conflicts. Because they are Jewish yes?

>>>Fuck 'em. Let them fend on their own.<<<

You live in Canada, you aren't sending them any military equipment, So stop your bitching

>>>I'm choosing neutrality. Fuck Israel<<<

Good, now stop your bitching, Shut the fuck up, and be neutral like you say you are.

No, I'm not going to "shut the fuck up". In case you haven't noticed yet, internet forums are a place to share personal opinions. I am not in charge of foreign policy, but I can at least vent my opinions on it.

i'm here to defend and support TheMouse
i really don't understand how everybody is against TheMouse
well sh'es canadian right and your asking why is she caring about arabs
i'm arab myself and muslim and i probably have more reasons to hate israel than her but she does it better than me
even if she is canadian
you ask why
the answer is simple
Israel is a PARASITE every year it exploits the holocaust souvenirs and german concious to black them billions of dollars it controls most western medias it has a strong lobby that support Israel in their crimes against palestinian people

ISRAEL can't live without western AIDS (no HIV ok )
so i guess that regardless of any cultural or relligious background TheMouse is feeling
as a tax payer that every year a non justified amout is given to Israel in many forms
and you probably didn't realise this yet
i sorry to say this but if the US civilisation (as any great historical civilisation)) falls it will be because of
ISRAEL

Joe, why is that that when somebody supports a group of people of a different race then them in a political conflict, they "want to be" that race? Is there some supreme law that you have to support the people that share you blood? Am I supposed to call you a wannabe Jew?

I live in America, and I chose to condemn Sharone's state terrorism. I chose to condemn my own countries support of this terrorism, and I chose to condemn how my country gets involved in a foreign affair that has nothing to do with it's national interest, and only plays it's role for economic and political gain.

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
why is that that when somebody supports a group of people of a different race then them in a political conflict, they "want to be" that race?

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We assume that's the case, because you've sold out your race.

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I chose to condemn how my country gets involved in a foreign affair that has nothing to do with it's national interest, and only plays it's role for economic and political gain.

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Economic and political gain - IS in our national interest.

Support of Israel is not in the economic interest of the US or any western nation, and it's only in the political interest of politicians because the Jewish lobby has almost total control over US foreign affairs and has the ability to prop up subservient politicians or crush dissident politicians as they please. They have a history of dragging the US into conflict with Arab nations. Is that in US interests? To have one parasitic ally that spies on you and sucks out your tax dollars at the expense of a dozen other countries hating you?

Since I know some geniuses will point out that I shouldn't care because I live in Canada now -- they lobby here too, and for nothing that is in my best interest. Asper (Jewish) owns over 60% of our media and has an official policy of all of his media speaking with "one voice" on certain issues, including Israel. The Canadian Jewish Congress, Bnai Brith Canada, and the Simon Weasel Center are the groups that are always pushing for censorship of everything they don't like. What good is the state of Israel if they still want to have control and meddle in other nations? You don't have to be a "wannabe-Arab" to be extremely annoyed at their behavior.

Everyone should be moved out and Israel/Palestine be made into either an international park or a weapons testing facility for the west.

The only people our support of Israel truly benefits are wealthy Zionist Jews and the politicians that are in their pocket. It might also benefit the heads of the Israeli government, because it means they have a tighter grip on their power.When speaking in shallow terms, supporting Israel is in our national interest because it means we have more influence in the middle east. It wold be absolutely wonderful if our goal was world domination.

If "national interest" means what makes us popular with the rest of the world, support for Israel is incredibly counter-productive. It basically exemplify's peoples accusations that we meddle with affairs that have nothing to do with us, which makes people in other countries hate our guts.

If "national interest" means what's best for our people, then we should pull out of Israel immediately.We're crawling up their asses so much we may as well give Arab terrorists nuclear weapons, and tell them to bomb us.

I was speaking in general terms. You all know my position on Israel.

I don't really care about aye-rabs anyway.

And it's in every nations best interest to stay on the Mossad's good side.