Why are people who claim to be right-wing fooled into thinking the Republican party and Bush administration has anything to do with conservatism? Do these people think that Republicans are trustworthy simply because they aren't Democrats? Are they falling for the ol' "Trust us because we aren't THOSE guys.." scam?

During the Clinton administration, Republicans accused liberals of following their president no matter how corrupt, how dangerous, and how evil he was, simply because he was Democrat. They were right, but unfortunately the shoe is now on the other foot, and we see Republicans and their followers playing the same game the liberals did during the Clinton years. The Bush administration could shred the bill of rights and increase the power of the federal government beyond what any Democrat administration dares to do, and the followers of Bush will support it all, just because the expanded government came with a Republican mask. Loyalty is bought cheaply, for $300.

"That government is best which governs least" has turned into "My party, right or wrong!", even when the party undermines and betrays everything the party says it stands for.

The government in Canada is a corrupt one-party monopoly, but most everyone knows it because it's so bleeding obvious. In the US, there is a corrupt one-party monopoly too, but more people are fooled because the party pretends to be two parties who give lip-service disagreement with each other on little token issues in public, but play the same game in private. As long as the choices of Americans are between the Dems and Reps, they don't have choices at all. Whenever I see a Bushbot hating Democrats, or a liberalbot hating Republicans, I pity the poor suckers. Bush is just Clinton with pants on.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 09-26-2002).]

Bush is right wing. So are the Democrats.

No theyre not.

I say we let Spirit be dictator.

Bush is not right-wing. What right-winger would support "amnesty" for millions of illegal immigrants as a pathetic ploy to court mexican votes?

Im with Malaria. Even though Id make a better "the guy". I'll give it my best shot.

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Originally posted by TheMouse:
Bush is not right-wing. What right-winger would support "amnesty" for millions of illegal immigrants as a pathetic ploy to court mexican votes?

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And press for tougher penalties on corporate fraud.

Mouse,

If someone would have told me two months ago that you would make a post like this, I would have used the word liar multiple times.

However, back to the subject at hand: I am in total agreement with your comment about my party right or wrong. Unfortunately, this is not a modern phenomenon. My father had a terminal case of that disease and it drove me crazy.

There is no cure for this malady either. That is why many times the "silent majority" is our only salvation. The trouble is, how do we motivate them?

Nox

Republicans and Democrats constantly attempt to center their parties along the line of majority thought. That thought, seems to slowly shift left, and they both follow it, in pursuit of power. It's not so much that party followers are "robots" so much as idiot captains of the ship they steer. I piss and moan about the sleaze of politics as much as anyone, but when it comes down to it - I know that the general sleaze of the voting public is the real cause of the problem.

Party ideologies are as irrelevant as the dissimilarities of the members. True conservativism should be the home of the educators and the unions. Millions of blacks have voted Republican because it was Lincoln's party. It's been fucked up a long time.

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Originally posted by TheMouse:
The Bush administration could shred the bill of rights and increase the power of the federal government beyond what any Democrat administration dares to do, and the followers of Bush will support it all

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Most Dems are falling in line too. The Bush administration will always have an asterisk by it because of 9-11. A time when civil liberties where sacrificed by all around.

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And press for tougher penalties on corporate fraud.

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There is nothing "right-wing" about corporate fraud, and Bush is not "getting tough" on it. The Republicans protect their own as much as they can. Just because they'll sacrifice a few tokens here and there to make it look like they are "getting tough" on fraud, don't be fooled. Bush can press life in jail for corporate fraudsters. It won't do shit because he knows his buddies won't get convicted in the first place.

Robber Baronism, corporate welfare, and using the power of government to protect your crooked investment schemes is not standing up for honest free-market capitalism, and is not right-wing.

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Originally posted by TheMouse:
There is nothing "right-wing" about corporate fraud, and Bush is not "getting tough" on it. The Republicans protect their own as much as they can. Just because they'll sacrifice a few tokens here and there to make it look like they are "getting tough" on fraud, don't be fooled. Bush can press life in jail for corporate fraudsters. It won't do shit because he knows his buddies won't get convicted in the first place.

Robber Baronism, corporate welfare, and using the power of government to protect your crooked investment schemes is not standing up for honest free-market capitalism, and is not right-wing.

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Yes, my mistake, I must have seen someone else pressing for incresed penalties on corporate fraud and more investigations into it. Silly me.

Joe, you are amazingly naive when it comes to Bush. That $300 really went a long way on you. When Gore says "I fight for the little guy", do you believe that? Of course not, because when it comes to Democrats, you know that they lie to get votes and for public relations. You just haven't picked up the fact that Republicans do the same thing. If Bush said that his goal was to save the rainforests and make world peace, would you believe that too?

Bush is what you call neo-conservative. Neo-conservatives are right wing people that lie about their motives, add religious and backward moralistic attitudes to already conservative beliefs, and use corrupt methods to buy popularity.

William F. Buckley junior is a traditional conservative. So are libertarians, like Harry Brown and Larry Elder. They're conservatives, but they're less moral and idealistic, and more down to earth and cynical. I think traditional conservatives are pretty cool, they admit that what they do is evil - they just consider it neccesary, unlike Bush, who pretends like God has put him on a mission to wage a Holy War on Muslims and a cultural war on Anti-Americans. Neo-Conservatives piss me off, including Clinton and the "New Democratic Party" that's just as two faced and power hungry as the Republicans.

The NeoCons are not conservative at all, in my opinion.

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I think traditional conservatives are pretty cool, they admit that what they do is evil - they just consider it neccesary.

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Traditional conservatives do not think what they are doing is "evil". They call the Republicans "The War Party" and are anti-interventionist. Yes, they are cynical, but that is because many tend to feel that there is nothing left worthy of "conserving"... that the country has gone to "hell in a handbasket" and not much can be done any more to reverse the process.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 09-27-2002).]

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Originally posted by TheMouse:
Joe, you are amazingly naive when it comes to Bush. That $300 really went a long way on you. When Gore says "I fight for the little guy", do you believe that? Of course not, because when it comes to Democrats, you know that they lie to get votes and for public relations. You just haven't picked up the fact that Republicans do the same thing. If Bush said that his goal was to save the rainforests and make world peace, would you believe that too?

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Mouse,

you are an exteremly rock-headed individual. Actions speak louder then words. All I see is him cracking down on corporate fraud while democrats bitch about one thing or another, while never offering any solutions. And using the tax refund to nudge on me really proves what a hardcore dumbass you really are.

If Bush said he was going to help the rain forest and the environment, and began to go about doing it, then I would believe him. Sometimes I wonder how you didn't drown accidentally in a bucket of water from your intense lack of common sense. At least TRY to hide it.

Yes, Republicans lie to get votes. Do I agree with everything they do, NO! I've said that before, yet you still can't grasp that fucking fact. And you wonder why I say Billy is your hero?

Ok Joe, I'm giving the ball to you. Show me where he is systematically cracking down on all corporate fraudsters, including himself and people in his own administration. In other words, is he going to go after his own? Is he going to go after roots of the problem? Is he going to end all corporate welfare and corporate ties to the government?

Bush's entire family is tangled in corporate fraud. There's even a book about it.. not by a Democrat or leftist, but by retired Naval Intelligence Lt. Cmdr. Al Martin.

Quote from him....

"You have to look at the entire Bush Family in this context -- as if the entire family ran a corporation called Frauds-R-Us. Each member of the family, George Sr.,George Jr., Neil, Jeb, Prescott, Wally, etc.,have their own specialty of fraud."

"George Jr.'s specialty was insurance and security fraud."

"Jeb's specialty was oil and gas fraud."

"Neil's specialty was real estate fraud."

"Prescott's specialty was banking fraud." "Wally's specialty was securities fraud."

"And George Bush Sr.'s specialty? All of the above."


The root of the problem isn't crooked accountants cooking some books. The problem is crooked politicians in bed with them in the first place, or when the politicians are white-collar criminals themselves, such as the Bush dynasty and the Clintons.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 09-27-2002).]

Does there have to be a revolution to have hometown heroes again?

All I know is that the politicians that we have in power are the ones that sneer at me when I go to the mall to buy a movie. Unless there are cameras in the mall that day.

Whatever happened to the guy that came from middle of no where, USA and did something nice for us? I'm not saying that the people in power don't do nice things for us, it's just that most of the time it's unintentional or else part of a different plan.

They had to sell their identity to special interest groups and media backers to get their message out, or were assassinated.

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Bush is not right-wing. What right-winger would support "amnesty" for millions of illegal immigrants as a pathetic ploy to court mexican votes?

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A populist right-winger. He isn't supporting them out of misplaced sympathy, as you would expect from a left-winger.

If Bush isn't right-wing or centre right, then what is he? The Democrats fit into the same category because they currently have more similarities in policy and ideals than what the world outside America would consider centre, or centre-left.

Bush is just a corrupt man of crony capitalism who supports pseudo-liberal policies such as increased immigration. He's not being "populist" by supporting amnesty for illegals. By doing that, he's sending a big "fuck you" to the type of people who voted for him in the first place, which is mostly middle-American white people who don't want illegal immigrants all over the country. He doesn't belong on the right-left meter. The corrupt actions by Republicans and Democrats now transcend all right/left labels. After all, he used executive priv to block investigation of Clinton's pardons. One hand washes the other.

Another interesting thing about Bush...

I was talking with my father-in-law, and he said almost all of his friends completely hated Bush, thought he was an idiot and a piece of crap. The only friends of his that liked Bush were his Jewish friends. They not only like him, but think he is wonderful and an excellent leader! Why would Canadian Jews love Bush when everyone else hates him?

Easy. Bush's tax cuts benefit the rich. Most Canadian Jews are wealthy. Bush is really pro big business. Most Canadian Jews have strong ties with big business.

Bush is right wing though, granted that their are many forms of right wing. The right his Harry Brown, Bush, William F. Buckley Junior, and Adolf Hitler. Just like the left has Noam Chomsky and Pol Pot.

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Easy. Bush's tax cuts benefit the rich. Most Canadian Jews are wealthy. Bush is really pro big business. Most Canadian Jews have strong ties with big business.

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No. The rest of his friends were business guys, also. They think Bush is an idiot. Only the Jewish guys loved Bush. They don't just "like" or "approve" of Bush. They really like him.

Besides, Bush is pro-businesses he has ties with. He's not pro-Canadian business. He impossed tariffs on imports that includes Canadian lumber. I really doubt their love of Bush has anything to do with his business ties.

Edit: I don't consider Hitler right or left wing. National Socialism is a combination of both.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 09-27-2002).]

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Originally posted by TheMouse:
Ok Joe, I'm giving the ball to you. Show me where he is systematically cracking down on all corporate fraudsters, including himself and people in his own administration. In other words, is he going to go after his own? Is he going to go after roots of the problem? Is he going to end all corporate welfare and corporate ties to the government?

Bush's entire family is tangled in corporate fraud. There's even a book about it.. not by a Democrat or leftist, but by retired Naval Intelligence Lt. Cmdr. Al Martin.

Quote from him....

"You have to look at the entire Bush Family in this context -- as if the entire family ran a corporation called Frauds-R-Us. Each member of the family, George Sr.,George Jr., Neil, Jeb, Prescott, Wally, etc.,have their own specialty of fraud."

"George Jr.'s specialty was insurance and security fraud."

"Jeb's specialty was oil and gas fraud."

"Neil's specialty was real estate fraud."

"Prescott's specialty was banking fraud." "Wally's specialty was securities fraud."

"And George Bush Sr.'s specialty? All of the above."


The root of the problem isn't crooked accountants cooking some books. The problem is crooked politicians in bed with them in the first place, or when the politicians are white-collar criminals themselves, such as the Bush dynasty and the Clintons.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 09-27-2002).]

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If you want to see where he's cracking down, then you probably are living under a rock......Was Clinton doing this? nope, too busy getting his pole smoked, stealing shit from the White House, and renting out the White House to Macau Pimps, Indonesian Crooks, and more.


Where did this guy get his info? If you think just because he's former military I'd believe him, think again. I have tales of officers inventing facts that are pretty ridiculous. I can write a book about the same thing, and many Bush haters are easily duped into more "facts" without giving a rusty fuck about knowing more.

So what is it? Jewish poison contaminates peoples brains? George Sorros is very jewish, and doesn't like Bush. Maybe it's a coincidence. I really wish someone's religion and race background wouldn't be mentioned when evaluated a plitical opinion. George W. Bush is affiliated with the Christian right, and the majority of Jews in the US that voted voted for Gore.

Not that it makes a difference, but if you're gonna equate Judaism with corruption, saying Jews you know like bush won't cut it.

Natioanal Socialism has no left wing elements. State sponsored capitalism in which the state works with private enterprise isn't left wing at all. That would be like saying Japan has a left wing economy.

Joe, if you want major media links to Bush family fraud, here ya go.

Uncl, race and religion happen to be extremely important in evaluating political opinion, and I know that most Jews used to vote Dem, which is why I was mildly surprised that the only people here that really love Bush are Jewish people.

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State sponsored capitalism in which the state works with private enterprise isn't left wing at all.

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Yes, it is. That's why National Socialism is a mix of left and right. Just because modern leftists view Hitler as Satan, it does not mean there is nothing remotely leftist about National Socialism. State sponsored private enterprise is a contradiction.

Canadians don't have a Joe Lieberman. My experience while in Canada, especially Calgary, was that Canadians looked past their national welfare, and actually considered the common good a serious aspect while forming political opinions. I find it really surprising that Jews love Bush.

Religion might be neccesary in valuing in assesing someone's politics, but definately not race - unless it's a situation like the one in Zimbabwe in which the president is taking land redistribution to such as extreme that whites are practicly being enslaved. People consider race important, but they shouldn't Someone's ancestors shouln't have anything to do with their politics - if it does, it just shows how sad a world we live in.

No. All left wing ideologies strive closer to a command economy. State sponsored capitalism is a COMPLETE market economy. Businesses have more power then a government. There's nothing remotely left wing about Adolf Hitler, and even he wouldn't say that. You really think Japan has a left wing economy?

Race is extremely important in considering political opinion. Try telling the NAACP and the people in states like California who pander to the chicano vote that race never matters. There are these things called political lobbies that are based on nothing but race.

Uncl, COMPLETE Market Economy has no "state" involved in it at all. The businesses in Germany were not more powerful than Hitler and his party.

People consider race important because they're ignored fucks. That's just aesthetics, someone's race SHOULDN'T have anything to do with their politics. Things would be alot more direct and easier to deal with if race wasn't an issue. I hate racial elitists. The NAACP is pretty much the black KKK, but with higher social status.

State sponsored capitalism is such a market economy that the State acts in interest of business, not vice versa. It's a completely right wing idea - just a different form of right wing then traditional conservatism. Not all right wingers have to be libertarians, every wing takes different forms. Don't start comparing Chomsky to Pol Pot.

EDIT: Businesses in America, Germany, and other parts of Europe FUNDED Hitler's party. The Nazis wouldn't have gotten anywhere without it. Economically, the Nazi party was pretty much a giant inbred corperation.

[This message has been edited by UnclNastyFingerz (edited 09-28-2002).]

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People consider race important because they're ignored fucks. That's just aesthetics, someone's race SHOULDN'T have anything to do with their politics.

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Race is an issue, and it has a lot to do with politics in a multiracial society. Get a handle on reality before wishing for how things "should" be.

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Things would be alot more direct and easier to deal with if race wasn't an issue. I hate racial elitists.

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Things would be a lot more direct and easier to deal with if age and gender weren't an issue either, but hey, age and gender exists and people in those categories have certain interests. Same with race. The only way race will never be an issue is if the country you live in consists of mostly one race, like in Japan

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Don't start comparing Chomsky to Pol Pot.

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Why would I do this?

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Businesses in America, Germany, and other parts of Europe FUNDED Hitler's party. The Nazis wouldn't have gotten anywhere without it. Economically, the Nazi party was pretty much a giant inbred corperation.

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And some bankers funded the Bolshevik revolution

Uncl, National Socialism was not "capitalist" and "free market". The state had control over all businesses that employed more than a certain amount of people. In order to fix the fucked up German economy, they had to use government power to control "market forces". Nazi Germany was fascist, not capitalist. It contained combined elements from the right and the left.

Fascism is right wing. It's not capitalist, but ti's right wing because it's closer to a market economy then a command economy. Businesses have control of the state, the state doesn't control businesses.

Age and gender are issues because a 5 year old wouldn't make as good a computer technician or a fireman as a 40 year old. Gender on the other hand should only be as much of an issue as it has to. Women don't tend to have the upper body strength to be landscapers, and facts like those should be accounted for when measuring wages and equality within the work force.

Race shouldn't be an issue at all. No race is genetically more or less capable of doing something then anoter, so race has absolutely no reason to be considered when analysing politics. It is because people try to use race to their advantage, and I'm advocating striving towards changing conditions to make things closer to how they should be.

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Fascism is right wing. It's not capitalist, but ti's right wing because it's closer to a market economy then a command economy. Businesses have control of the state, the state doesn't control businesses.

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Uncl, the businesses in Germany did not control the state

The businesses funded Hitler. Businesses were responsable for everything from building tanks to printing swztikas. Nazi Germany was completely funded by corperations.

Economically, the Nazis were pretty much in the centre. Corporations existed and were an important part of Germany's industrial power but certainly weren't dominant, or unemcumbered by government influence. Full employment, much of it created by the state was a goal; even distribution of land and income wasn't. The socialist tag was mainly to appeal to a wider section of the voting public - there were socialist Nazis but few of them lasted beyond the Night Of Long Knives.

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
The businesses funded Hitler. Businesses were responsable for everything from building tanks to printing swztikas. Nazi Germany was completely funded by corperations.

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Maybe, in the beginning, If Hitler required campaign financing. But once he took power, it was more symbiotic in nature. Industry was funded (capitalized) by private German investors. The Nazis provided the war machine (a market for industry's product).

>>>>People consider race important because they're ignored fucks.<<<<<

What?

>>>> That's just aesthetics<<<<<

No its not.

>>>>> someone's race SHOULDN'T have anything to do with their politics.<<<<

Why not? Someones race is a fundamental part of their identity, and their identity should be reflected in their politics, shouldnt they?

>>>> Things would be alot more direct and easier to deal with if race wasn't an issue. <<<<<

Theyd be easier to deal with if everyone was dead too, so what?

>>>>I hate racial elitists.<<<<

No you dont. You said Rasta "kicks ass".

Rastas aren't racial elitists. They believe in racial equality. Stop pretending you know shit about Rasta, it's really annoying. I've lived with Rastas, they're not the afrocentrists you think they are.

LoL. For a 16 year old who knows nothing, you sure get around.

If you think a black "emperor" is god, and that blacks are gods chosen people, that sounds like racial elitism to me. They can think they are gods greatest all they want- its just sad that to back up this claim they can only cite the highest per capita consumption of weed usage and out of wedlock pregnancies.

They believe that he's some sort of deity, but he doesn't rule over us. They also believe in the superiority of traditional culture, which for the most part is black. They're against industrialization, and they don't like the Romans. They still believe in racial equality.

No they dont. Even just taking what you said as evidence- no they dont.

Isn't deity and god nearly the same?

And if they believe in racial equality, can Whites become rastas?

Yes they can. I've met several white Rastas.

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
Yes they can. I've met several white Rastas.

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Actual rastas or wannabes? I ask this because every single rasta I've met has said no white can be one.

The rastas you've met were probably wannabes. If you met them in the US, they're probably not very Roots. "Wolves in tha sheep's clothing" as real Rastas would call them.

Actual black Rastafarians I've come across in the Kingston ghetto make it a point that white people can be Rastafarians. I've seen white and black Rastafarians coexisting all around trenchtown.

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Originally posted by UnclNastyFingerz:
[Rastas] are against industrialization...

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I believe this. I worked with a rasta last month. We were building a factory, and he didn't do shit all day... so I guess since he didn't actually contribute to the project, he didn't compromise his beliefs.

The other rasta thread was active at the time, so I asked him if rastas hated whites, and he said, "no". His answer may have been colored by the fear of getting fired... but we fired him anyway.

Honestly, if you hate people who have power over you, you dont really share it.