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| Politics: Left, Right, and Center National, state, regional, and local politics. Who's doing what to whom, and what you can do about it. How-to-get-action messages are encouraged. "How the government fucked up my life" stories are encouraged. Sharing new methods for cheating on taxes is encouraged. Sample "letters to congresscritters" are encouraged. Apathy and "I can't do anything" posts are discouraged. Left, right, centrist, or any other form of political-economic systems are all up for discussion. Be prepared to defend yourself, or at least have a good line of bullshit ready. Extensive quoting of economists and philosophers is frowned upon. We want to hear what YOU have to say, not what some constipated, impotent, dead guy dreamt up while suffering from the DT's over a hundred years ago thought. |
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#1
 2002-05-29, 08:18 |
Oliver_Kahn 
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 Unfair in history....
Why Germany bombed England in 1940 was considered a crime but when the allies bombed Germany for 3 years,it was said to force Germany out of the war,but not a crime??
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#2
2002-05-29, 12:30 |
Nox
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Re: Unfair in history....
Oliver,
Not only were both of those wrong, but how about what happened in China, Japan, Singapore, and even Hong Kong in WWII. The twentieth century drug the civilian population into war on a scale unsurpassed in history.
However, the answer to your question is quite simple...We won the war, we write the history books...The End.
Nox
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#3
2002-05-29, 14:28 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
The difference is Germany and Japan started their facist war we were defending ourselves from it. Great Britain Targeted the central and industrial areas of japan, Germany, it was not there first intention to kill civillians that was just a lucky bonus.
If you elect a government that starts a world war on your behalf you deserve all you get, unlike the inocent British civillians who were killed by cowardly German and japaness bombers.
VIPER
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#4
2002-05-29, 14:50 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
Very interesting theory, Viper. What's most impressing is that you classified the killed civilians as a 'lucky bonus'.
You never cease to impress me.
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#5
2002-05-29, 16:23 |
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Re: Unfair in history....
Its because they were America's enemy, and killing your enemy is always good. Your enemy killing you is always bad.
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#6
2002-05-29, 18:17 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
You never cease to impress me.
Thank you, I like you too. It�s allot harder to be sympathetic when they were bombing your country and killing your people. You wouldn�t know about that though would you so maybe you shouldn�t comment on it, the hypocritical make me sick. VIPER[This message has been edited by Viper2002 (edited 05-29-2002).] |
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#7
2002-05-29, 19:30 |
Nox
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Re: Unfair in history....
Viper,
The fire bombings of Essen and Tokyo exceed London. Also, never forget Nanking.
Nox
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#8
2002-05-29, 19:56 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
You wouldn�t know about that though
Don't assume too much.
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#9
2002-05-30, 00:30 |
Joe Boo
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Re: Unfair in history....
Well, When you have japanese newspapers telling about how two Japanese Army officers had a contest to see how many Chinese civilians the two of them could behead in a single day, and show pictures of the two smiling holding up some poor guys head, and Then on the other hand you have American and British Bombers dropping packages of candy and cookies to German boys and girls it kinda reinforces that no matter what anyone says, we were the good guys and they were the bad :O)
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#10
2002-05-30, 00:54 |
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by Nox:
...The fire bombings of Essen and Tokyo exceed London. Also, never forget Nanking.
And since we're waxing nostalgic, lets not forget Dresden. And, I agree with Viper when he says 'you deserve all you get' and that includes whether or not you 'elected' the bastards - the same thing applies if you just sit on your ass and do nothing. What I'm not clear on though, is just exactly when did Japan bomb Britain and vice versa? |
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#11
2002-05-30, 01:12 |
Nox
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by user X:
What I'm not clear on though, is just exactly when did Japan bomb Britain and vice versa?
My guess it's a reference to Singapore and Hong Kong. Nox |
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#12
2002-05-30, 02:31 |
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nowhere in particular
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Re: Unfair in history....
"If you elect a government that starts a world war on your behalf you deserve all you get, unlike the inocent British civillians who were killed by cowardly German and japaness bombers"
"And, I agree with Viper when he says 'you deserve all you get' and that includes whether or not you 'elected' the bastards - the same thing applies if you just sit on your ass and do nothing."
i thought the 90's all but killed people like this off.
thank god i was wrong.
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#13
2002-05-30, 03:13 |
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by Nox:
My guess it's a reference to Singapore and Hong Kong.
Yeah I was thinking Burma, but any Brit in Burma at that time wouldn't have been an innocent. |
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#14
2002-05-30, 04:05 |
Alan Smithee
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Re: Unfair in history....
The japanese lost all claim to any sort of moral superiority or equality in their bombing when they used biowarfare to kill 200,000 chinese. If anything The atomic bomb got them out easy. Without it the invasion of the mainland was slated to begin in 1946 with opening chemical weapons barrages intended to kill 1-3 million, estimated japanese dead for the whole campaign 17-20 million. For the most part the feeling was that the japanese did not honor the geneva conventions so why should they be protected by them.
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#15
2002-05-30, 04:57 |
Joe Boo
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Re: Unfair in history....
Then they come out with school books saying how they were victims during the war and neglected to mention Korean "Comfort" women. While internment camps were a bad thing, they make like they were as bad as concentration camps
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#16
2002-05-30, 16:26 |
Alan Smithee
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Re: Unfair in history....
And the day that you read "camp 731" in a japanese history book expect a great many locousts with the heads of men.
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#17
2002-05-30, 18:30 |
Nox
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Re: Unfair in history....
AMEN!
Nox
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#18
2002-05-30, 21:23 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
For the most part the feeling was that the japanese did not honor the geneva conventions so why should they be protected by them.
Perhaps you're right in your reasoning, but you must remember that practicing collective punishment on a country that hasn't respected other's rights would be a crime as well. [This message has been edited by hp (edited 05-30-2002).] |
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#19
2002-05-30, 22:56 |
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nowhere in particular
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Re: Unfair in history....
how do you plan to fairly fight someone who doesn't fight fairly.'
tell you what hp,
get a game of monopoly, and 6 other people.
and each of you play by different rules.
pretty soon you will realize that anything goes.
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#20
2002-05-31, 01:13 |
Joe Boo
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Re: Unfair in history....
Alot of people get the idea from their parents or someone in their lives that fighting is wrong, that fighting back when the bully is picking on you is what the bully wants, I dunno, but when I broke the bully's nose he left me alone. and my parents told me to ignore the bully and that only made him try harder. So, that's why we fought back, to let the bully (Germany, Italy, and japan) know that if you fuck with the bull you get the horns. And not be like a pussy and let them run rampant all over us.
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#21
2002-05-31, 08:38 |
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Re: Unfair in history....
Bombing Germany didn't force them out of the war. The only British city bombing raids which had any effect were the initial ones which persuaded Hitler to switch from bombing airfields to bombing London which led to the cancellation of Operation Sea Lion. Subsequent area bombing raids were just wasteful destruction, like the German raids (the Americans targeted industrial targets and were slightly more effective).
But we write the history books. "Victor's justice" after World War I led to the resentment in Germany which brought about the rise of Hitler.
However, because of the acts of genocide perpetrated by Germans across Europe, there are few voices clamouring for apologies for the Allied excesses during World War II, because what the Germans did was much worse.
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#22
2002-05-31, 15:47 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
how do you plan to fairly fight someone who doesn't fight fairly.
Well, first of all, I honestly doubt that someone actually fights 'fairly' when the matter comes to life or death. Put soldiers on the battlefield and I assure you that they'll do just about anything to get out of that field alive. They would pull hair, they would bite you, they would throw mud in your face, as you said yourself, 'anything goes'. BUT, We're not talking here about combatants on the battlefield. I'm refering to simple civilians living far from the cannons and, most of them, wishing this war had never happend. Of course, it's very hard to be an 'innocent' when the war comes to such point when your loved ones are getting smashed like rats and where war propaganda is all that ever comes from the mouth of the officials; that is why I never claimed that the civilians must be considered as saints and have their life spared at all cost. But I do believe that suggesting that the bombing of civilians is a 'lucky bonus', or justifying the carpet bombings because "they" did it too, is unnaceptable.
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#23
2002-05-31, 16:22 |
Alan Smithee
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Re: Unfair in history....
there was no such thing as a japanese civilian all of them were trained to rush the beaches with bambo spears in the end.
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#24
2002-05-31, 20:00 |
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Re: Unfair in history....
LoL what an awesome people.
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#25
2002-05-31, 21:22 |
Nox
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Re: Unfair in history....
Awesome.
First time I've seen that particular adjective used to describe the Code of Bushido.
Nox
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#26
2002-05-31, 21:34 |
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nowhere in particular
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Re: Unfair in history....
"I'm refering to simple civilians living far from the cannons and, most of them, wishing this war had never happend."
incorrect most civilians support war efforts.
in fact the only war i know of that had any significant protests was the vietnam war.
which was only protested by people of draft age who didn't want to fight.
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#27
2002-05-31, 23:18 |
Joe Boo
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Re: Unfair in history....
The only British city bombing raids which had any effect were the initial ones which persuaded Hitler to switch from bombing airfields to bombing London which led to the cancellation of Operation Sea Lion.
Actually, it was German Bombers who thought they were on Target and bombed the heart of london. and Churchill retaliated by bombing Berlin. And Operation Sea Lion failed because British Bombers targeted the Landing and Troop Ships The Wermacht was using for the invasion and sank many of them. In Fact the invasion was scheduled to begin two weeks later but they cancelled it due to their transports being sunk. And The Royal navy Wasn't in the English Channel then because it was swaming with U-Boats, Heavy Bombers and Dive Bombers
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#28
2002-06-03, 07:00 |
Alan Smithee
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Re: Unfair in history....
The bombing hampered industrial production in germany but it would have done more against them had it not been for albert speer. Speer said that the best compliment he ever recieved was when he was told by the leader of the eigth airforce had he known what speer was doing he would have sent all his bombers to put hime 6 feet under.
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#29
2002-06-03, 07:10 |
Joe Boo
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Re: Unfair in history....
My personal favorite Quote is by Patton who said, "You are not here to die for your country, you are here to make the other dumb sonofabitch die for his"
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#30
2002-06-03, 11:28 |
LordJugz
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Re: Unfair in history....
Viper, you gotta be kidding me right? "If you elect a government that starts a world war on your behalf you deserve all you get" maybe you need to learn a tad bit more about how Hitler got into power, my grandma and grandpa who lived through the war in Germany told me all of their stories. The Germans didnt know he was gonna turn and start world war 2. They also didnt know that he would kill all those Jews. Sorta like Mao Ze Tung, did the chinese know he was gonna starve em?
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#31
2002-06-03, 11:35 |
LordJugz
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Re: Unfair in history....
What about Berlin? That city was flatened  |
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#32
2002-06-03, 11:37 |
LordJugz
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Re: Unfair in history....
::sigh:: another reply.
Izzy, "And, I agree with Viper when he says 'you deserve all you get' and that includes whether or not you 'elected' the bastards - the same thing applies if you just sit on your ass and do nothing."... wtf is that? Not to be an ass or anything, but did you just miss the whole part on getting shot on the spot if you did NOT follow their orders? Thats why my grandpa had to fight the Russians. Not cause he hated the Russians, cause he was forced to.
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#33
2002-06-03, 13:19 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by LordJugz:
how Hitler got into power
Hitler Got into power by telling the German people exactly what they wanted to here, which was WW1, was lost because of the Jews cowardice. You loved him because he hated them more than you did, he gave you an excuse for losing the war and an excuse to start a new one. quote:
Originally posted by LordJugz:
They also didnt know that he would kill all those Jews. B]
Jews were hated in Germany long before Hitler rose to power. Also a little correction for you there Hitler didn�t kill any Jews he just gave the order it was the German army and the German people who did the entire killing for him. quote:
Originally posted by LordJugz:
[B]The Germans didn�t know he was gonna turn and start world war 2
Well you must be quite a stupid bunch then, because Britain had started its defence plan for WW2 years before it had started. quote:
Originally posted by LordJugz:
my grandma and grandpa who lived through the war in Germany
Not all of mine lived through it in England, so fuck you. quote:
Originally posted by LordJugz:
What about Berlin? That city was flatened
Good. One innocent life is worth more than a million guilty ones. quote:
Originally posted by LordJugz:
Did you just miss the whole part on getting shot on the spot if you did NOT follow their orders?
No I didn�t, neither did my Great Granddad who was shot in the face and killed by the enemy trying to rescue an injured man and get him back to a trench. quote:
Originally posted by LordJugz:
my grandpa had to fight the Russians
I don�t care if he had a gun to his head, you should he a shamed to be related to him. The fact remains Germany started the war; you committed all of the war crimes. Id dance on the graves of every one of those German fuckers. The allies where fighting to save the world from Nazi Germany, no person�s life in the world are worth more than that. I feel no guilt for the bombing of German, good men died to fight those evil fuckers in a war they started. I lost family in both WW1 and WW2 because of Germany, and you sit there and expect me to give a fucking shit about Berlin as if you can still see the smoke. VIPER |
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#34
2002-06-03, 14:04 |
belarion23
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Re: Unfair in history....
VIPER
You cannot possibly be serious to imply that only Germany was anti-semitic. Check your own history. England has has a lengthy history of anti-semitism.
Hypothetically, if Tony Blair held a gun to your head and said if you don't go fight such and such I doubt you, as would most people, would take the bullet.
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#35
2002-06-03, 17:04 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by belarion23:
England has has a lengthy history of anti-semitism.
Are you sure your not thinking of America. England does not have a lengthy history of anti-Semitism. Feel free to point out any instances of anti-Semitism in England and I will match them will those from America, if you feel it necessary. However I can�t remember any British or Americans sending Jews to the gas chambers, so maybe you should check your own history bel. quote:
Originally posted by belarion23:
Check your own history.
I think you should take some of your own advice there. quote:
Originally posted by belarion23:
If Tony Blair held a gun to your head and said if you don't go fight such and such I doubt you, as would most people, would take the bullet.
So you think every one who was fighting for the enemy in WW2 had a gun to their head, I think you should try and leave your little fantasy world and join the rest of us in the real world. If any American here wants to bring shame on themselves by condemning the bombing of Germany good for you. But you want find a single British citizen who would condemn their actions in WW2. I understand, as does every other normal British citizen that the bombing of Germany was both necessary and justified and I am glad it happened. What relevance this has in bombing I don�t know, are you just sidetracking again to avoid the argument that in my eyes and many others has already been won. VIPER[This message has been edited by Viper2002 (edited 06-03-2002).] |
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#36
2002-06-03, 18:21 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
What I think Viper is trying to tell is that as long as you're the first one to do the crime, it's okay if you recieve a criminal response back.
Same way, i'm sure he wouldn't mind if the african guerrila groups bombed London during the Colonial Age after continous British invasions to the African continent resulting in a huge number of direct african death.
Or perhaps if India conducted raids against Britain in response to years of occupation and pillage by British soldiers.
I'm sure that Viper wouldn't mind all this because after all, it was Britain who commited the first criminal act.
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#37
2002-06-03, 18:23 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
Oh and excuse me if I left out many crimes. I didn't want the topic to become too long.
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#38
2002-06-03, 18:24 |
Alan Smithee
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Re: Unfair in history....
every European nation has a history of antisemitism. england for example deproted its jews in the high middle agesa number of the ships simply dumped them in the ocean.
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#39
2002-06-03, 19:32 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
every European nation has a history of antisemitism
As I am sure so does America. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
I'm sure that Viper wouldn't mind all this because after all
No your right I wouldn�t mind Hp, what you talk about was along time ago. Every country has a similar history of some sort, even yours. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
Oh and excuse me if I left out many crimes. I didn't want the topic to become too long.
If you didn�t want the topic to become �too long� then you should have put that in the same post fool. Why don�t you throw in a few American crimes in as well and few from whatever country your from (must be a shit heap because you keep it secret, oslama). Its all right for you to criticize other countries HP because you are too much of a coward to make yourself accountable by telling everyone what country your from, so we can talk some pointless shit about it like you just have about England. For all we know you�re from Germany in which case you are guiltier than anyone here It�s good to see another person avoiding what this topic is actually about, you can talk about colonial Britain all you like but it doesn�t have shit to do with bombing raids in WW2. Its a shame that all you can think of to de-validate my posts is drag something from hundreds of years ago up which has nothing to do with this topic or Modern Britain. VIPER |
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#40
2002-06-03, 20:54 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Every country has a similar history of some sort, even yours.
Which was exactly my point. Remember this post, Viper? " I don�t care if he had a gun to his head, you should he a shamed to be related to him.
The fact remains Germany started the war; you committed all of the war crimes. Id dance on the graves of every one of those German fuckers. The allies where fighting to save the world from Nazi Germany, no person�s life in the world are worth more than that. I feel no guilt for the bombing of German, good men died to fight those evil fuckers in a war they started.
I lost family in both WW1 and WW2 because of Germany, and you sit there and expect me to give a fucking shit about Berlin as if you can still see the smoke. "
So this is my post: I don't care if this was long time, you should be ashamed to be related to them (british colonists). The fact remains England started the colonist movement*; you commited all the crimes. Id dance on the graves of every one of those English fuckers. The Africans were fighting to save their world from Colonist England, no person�s life in the world are worth more than that. I would feel no guilt if London was bombed to pieces, good men died to fight those evil fuckers in a war they started. Some people lost family in both India and in Africa because of England, and you sit there and expect me to give a fucking shit about your family as if you were the only one who lost family during war. * - I didn't mean that England started the colonist movement. What I meant was that they commited crimes against Africans before the Africans commited crimes against them. So in other words, Viper, you're a dumb natioalist hypocrite. |
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#41
2002-06-03, 21:02 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
As for my country, you're right, it is a piece of shit (as shitty as England at least), that's why I never bothered to bring up all the 'good' stuff that it has done for the humanity.
I don't want to be related to anyone, I am my own man and want to be judged only for crimes commited by myself - not by my fellow citizens.
Last I checked, I was a human, and that's all that counts - not the fucking flag under which i'm supposed to serve.
Although if you so desperatly want to know from which country i'm from, you can ask one of the moderators to trace my IP.
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#42
2002-06-03, 22:49 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
This topic is about whether the bombing raids carried out on Germany by the allies where criminal just like the ones they carried out in Great Britain.
I am not saying two wrongs make a right.
I am not saying because they struck first we have a right to do anything.
I am not saying that every German was as Guilty as the other.
-------------
I am saying that if we had not carried out those bombing raids more German weapons would have made it to the front line, enemy communication would have stayed active we may never have won the war.
I am saying that we were a defensive force and our actions where a result of the serious threat to the existence of our whole way of life.
I am saying that I don�t care about German dead; they started the war which ever way you look at it. I care about the innocent British dead killed in German Bombing and the British, American, Russian service men who died so me, you and the rest of us could live in freedom from Nazi rule, forsaking there own lives for ours.
I am saying that �Thou shall not kill� is a good phrase, BUT it doesn�t mean shit once someone is trying to kill you, your family and invade you country.
I am saying that because the British and American raids where in defence and in the pursuit to save all of our fucking lives how can anyone call them criminal, when in fact if they did not occur we would all be living in a Nazi state. The German bombing raids differed from those of us in two critical places:
1. They were not defensive raids intended to save German lives, they were just there to take those of the British.
2. Their attacks were not centralised in industrial areas or areas of possible military significance, the missiles the fired at Britain were there to hit one target only the British people.
I will never agree with any point of view, which says the British and American bombing raids in WW2 were criminal because I don�t believe it in the slightest nor do I really believe you do Hp.
How can you call the actions of these people who fought and died for you criminal?
VIPER
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#43
2002-06-03, 23:14 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
QUOTE]Originally posted by hp: Last I checked, I was a human, and that's all that counts - not the fucking flag under which I�m supposed to serve.[/QUOTE] Nice try. I am afraid it does matter what country you are from, if you want to sit there and judge other people�s they have a right to judge yours. If you�re from Europe you owe your life to the allies who won WW2 but you sit there and call them criminals for saving your worthless life. You�re the hypocrite and you make me sick. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
I don't want to be related to anyone; I am my own man and want to be judged only for crimes committed by myself - not by my fellow citizens.
I would be proud to be judged by the actions of the British servicemen who fought in WW2, None of the committed a crime they were all heroes. �So in other words� you�re nothing more than hypocrite who disgraces himself by calling the men who saved your worthless life criminals. I�m not sure whether your just innocently stupid or you just enjoy talking absolute shit. I think your probably deeply both.VIPER |
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#44
2002-06-04, 01:28 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
I am not saying two wrongs make a right.
Then you are contradicting every point you have raised thus far in this post because you clearly stated that "anyone who starts a war deserves everything that is coming at him", even if that 'everything' has the word 'crime' written all over it. quote:
How can you call the actions of these people who fought and died for you criminal?
Ummm... because it was criminal? For example, if you stole a car to rescue me, you would be stil commiting a criminal act eventhough I wouldn't hold it against you because you had a good justification to commit this act, but this act would remain criminal nontheless. and in case you haven't noticed, I dropped the WW2 subject and brought England's crimes commited during the Colonist Age because I knew that this would piss your biased nationalist ass, and looks like I was right. I simply wondered if you could keep the same stance on the "if you throw the first punch, then expect even a harder punch in return" theory knowning that it was your fellow Brits who commited those crimes. And looks like your bias runs deeper then your beliefs because the moment I brought up British crimes commited during the Colonist Age, you imidiatly went on the defensive and switched the topic back to WW2 discussion. quote:
I am afraid it does matter what country you are from, if you want to sit there and judge other people�s they have a right to judge yours.
First of all, I am not judging countries, I'm simply laughing at you. Second, feel free to criticise my country anytime you wish. If you make a valid argument, then i'm most likely to join you in your criticism. I just don't want my country's flag to be tattoed on my forehead. That's all. quote:
If you�re from Europe you owe your life to the allies who won WW2 but you sit there and call them criminals for saving your worthless life.
As it has been pointed out already, I am not bringing Allies' crimes to the same level as Axis crimes because I realise that Axis have done much worse stuff; I am however, bringing up other crimes commited prior to WW2 and show you that your reasoning such as, 'every killed civilian of the ennemy nation is a lucky bonus', is completly flawed. quote:
None of the committed a crime they were all heroes.
... I'll leave it like that.
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#45
2002-06-04, 01:34 |
belarion23
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Re: Unfair in history....
Viper
I know I am a little late to reply, but I never said americans were not genocidal maniacs. Ala The Trail of Tears, etc. However, I am not fool enough to deny my countrie's wrongs.
Bravo, HP
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#46
2002-06-04, 01:37 |
belarion23
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by Viper2002:
So you think every one who was fighting for the enemy in WW2 had a gun to their head, I think you should try and leave your little fantasy world and join the rest of us in the real world.
If any American here wants to bring shame on themselves by condemning the bombing of Germany good for you. But you want find a single British citizen who would condemn their actions in WW2. I understand, as does every other normal British citizen that the bombing of Germany was both necessary and justified and I am glad it happened.
What relevance this has in bombing I don�t know, are you just sidetracking again to avoid the argument that in my eyes and many others has already been won.
[b]VIPER
[This message has been edited by Viper2002 (edited 06-03-2002).][/B]
Viper So I guess these means you are declaring victory and pulling out. [This message has been edited by belarion23 (edited 06-04-2002).] |
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#47
2002-06-04, 06:16 |
Joe Boo
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Re: Unfair in history....
I remember German trained Spanish Facist pilots and German supplied HE-11 bombers bombed a town during the Spanish Civil war called Guernica.
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#48
2002-06-04, 10:36 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by Viper:
How can you call the actions of these people who fought and died for you criminal?
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
Ummm... because it was criminal?
quote:
Originally posted by belarion23:
Bravo, HP
I am sure the families of all the dead allied servicemen would have something to say about that. You would not be calling them criminals now if your life still depended on them just as it did in WW2. Is this how you think people who offer their lives from yours should be treated, as criminals. You expect them to go out to war risk their life for the good of others watch friends and family die suffer horrendous injuries maybe even die themselves protecting their fellow people. And then call them criminals for doing what needs to be done a win a war they were pulled into by a hostile state? quote:
Originally posted by belarion23:
Hypothetically, if Tony Blair held a gun to your head and said if you don't go fight such and such I doubt you, as would most people, would take the bullet.
Okay Bel, let me get this straight, your saying its Okay for people who are at risk of death to fight and kill committing serious war crimes because they can put it down to their government. But when Germany puts a gun to all of our heads threatening us with Nazi rule we will not act in the same way. Why is it for you acceptable that the German people did not take the Bullet, but a war crime that the allies did not. Make your mind up you cant have it both ways. Were we supposed to sit there and wait for them to roll into our countries because bombing is wrong? No, ask your parents or grand parents if they condemn the bombing, tell them you think it was criminal and they will tell you should he ashamed. You would not be sat there typing away if it was not for these �Criminals�. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
because you had a good justification to commit this act, but this act would remain criminal nontheless. [/B]
Shooting somebody is illegal. Shooting somebody after they have shot you is self defence and so LegalBombing a country to kill civilians is illegal. Bombing the hostile country, in self-defence to isolate the threat of further attacks and to end a deadly war which was pushed unwillingly upon your people is Legal. quote:
Originally posted by belarion23:
I never said Americans were not genocidal maniacs, I am not fool enough to deny my countrie's wrongs.
Forget for a second your view that the bombing of Germany was a crime, Was it wrong � No I am not asking you if it was a crime, I am asking you if it was a choice between losing the war and being under Nazi rule would you still believe the bombing was wrong? Its easy to sit here 50 years later and say �That was wrong�, �That was a crime� but if they had not done what they did there is a good chance you would be sat here begging they had done. quote:
Originally posted by belarion23:
So I guess these means you are declaring victory and pulling out. B]
No I am just saying that I believe the bombing of Germany was not a war crime, as obviously do many others here. I will stay in this discussion until it becomes pointless to argue any longer. VIPER[This message has been edited by Viper2002 (edited 06-04-2002).] |
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#49
2002-06-04, 17:15 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
You would not be calling them criminals now if your life still depended on them just as it did in WW2.
Yes I would. Crime is a crime regardless of why it was commited. As I said already - and keep on saying it over and over again cause you're too stupid to understand - I don't hold it against the Allies because i'm aware that the Axis have commited much worse crimes. However, some of the actions commited by the Allies WERE criminal acts and that is indisputable. quote:
And then call them criminals for doing what needs to be done a win a war they were pulled into by a hostile state?
Read above. quote:
Forget for a second your view that the bombing of Germany was a crime, Was it wrong � No I am not asking you if it was a crime, I am asking you if it was a choice between losing the war and being under Nazi rule would you still believe the bombing was wrong?
But this isn't the fucking case. I am not condemning the Allies for bombing the cities - I realise that some of it has had to be done - I am arguing with people who make claims such as "every killed civilian is a lucky bonus". Furthermore, I have brought more examples of British crimes and then posed you the question, 'would you stil feel the same if London (or any other major British city) was bombed as a response to British agressive colonist movements?'
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#50
2002-06-04, 18:29 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
'would you stil feel the same if London (or any other major British city) was bombed as a response to British agressive colonist movements?'
I am sorry for your damming stupidity but it is not the same thing. Great Britain has never created a war in the modern world so your argument from the ages collonial Britain is deeply flawed as are all of your arguments in this topic. 56 millian people were killed as a direct result of the war Germany started, more of those deaths were allied. Can you remind me how many africans the British killed several hundreds of years ago in your pathetic argument. What crimes has you country committed Hp you Stupid Hypocrite?Is is Britains fault that your ashamed of your country. VIPER |
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#51
2002-06-04, 18:52 |
hp
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Re: Unfair in history....
It doesnt matter in what year was the crime commited. We're not talking about WW2 specificly.
Your argument is that if you elect a Government, then you should face all the consequances that are a result of your Government's action - and I agree with you there to an extent.
But, you also go further than that justifying agressive, and sometimes even unnecessery, retaliation measures by claiming that "its because they commited the first crime".
Very well then, let me bring you an example from the modern world.
Let's say your home gets bombed by Iraqui troops following an invasion on Iraq that should happen in another few months and in which Brits are very likely to participate, how would you react to those raids on your home then? After all, according to your logic, it would be Brits (togher with Americans and whoever else shall take part in this 'crusade') who will commit the first acts of war, thus, leaving Iraq no choice but to take whatever measures they need to fight back. Right?
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#52
2002-06-04, 19:18 |
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Re: Unfair in history....
That logic also justifies terrorism, because terrorists are pissed at our governmental policies.
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#53
2002-06-04, 20:45 |
Viper2002
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Re: Unfair in history....
Iraq may have already struck first. There is strong evidence almost conclusive that the strain of anthrax used in the attacks in America originated from Iraqi stocks. Iraq is a massive threat to all of our lives particularly their own peoples that threat needs to be isolated. The motivation for a possible attack on Iraq and Germanys motives for starting WW2 could not be more different. By your reasoning bombing Afghanistan would probably be a crime, but in less than a year later the country is in a better state then it ever has been. Once Iraq�s Government has been removed and a new one emplaced they will be able to join the international community and establish a real economy, then the Iraqi people wouldn�t be starving on the streets while the government spends millions in making weapons of mass destruction. That are obviously finding there way to the wrong people.
VIPER
[This message has been edited by Viper2002 (edited 06-04-2002).]
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#54
2002-06-04, 21:42 |
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Re: Unfair in history....
Supposing there was a new Iraqi government, what would be done for the Kurds? You know, there is quite a large population of them in Northern Iraq.
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#55
2002-06-04, 21:54 |
hp
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Iraq may have already struck first. There is strong evidence almost conclusive that the strain of anthrax used in the attacks in America originated from Iraqi stocks.
The several cases of antrax weren't war acts. No way could you use it as an excuse to bomb and/or invade a nation. quote:
Iraq is a massive threat to all of our lives particularly their own peoples that threat needs to be isolated.
Yeah yeah yeah... 'Americans are good and the Iraquis are evil'... i've heard it all before, thank you very much. Stil not good enough to justify the starting of a war. quote:
By your reasoning bombing Afghanistan would probably be a crime, but in less than a year later the country is in a better state then it ever has been.
LOL. I remember they said the same thing when the Soviets have left. Although I admit that this time, the Westerns seem to pay a bit more attention to Afghanistan, but for how long will it last? quote:
Once Iraq�s Government has been removed and a new one emplaced they will be able to join the international community and establish a real economy
You don't need a war to do that. If you want them to join the international community and establish a real economy, you can start by lifting the sanctions. But anyways, you seem to be missing the main point which I try to bring up for the third time already; I don't care whether this 'war on terrorism' is 'justified' or not because after all, even Hitler and the Axis had their reasons for starting WW2. I am talking about the country who commits the first war act regardless of their reasons. In 1939, it was Germany, thus - according to your logic of course - allowing England to retaliate in whatever (or almost) way they pleased; in 2002, however, it shall be the English/American troops who will commit the first war acts, thus - once again, according to your logic - allowing Iraq a full retaliation. So i'll pose my question once again, how would you like to become that 'lucky civilian bonus' because of Tony Blair's decisions?
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#56
2002-06-04, 22:01 |
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nowhere in particular
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Re: Unfair in history....
alright a good reason for starting a war with any third world degenerate,
to bring a level of civilization to an empoverished people who blame american policies for their woes, while their self appointed kings and dictators live in extravagant mansions with a drive way made of gold continuing to thrive off the misery of the people as long as a common enemy remains a common enemy, and they view their country as a victim of the world instead of the victim of it's leaders which they are.
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#57
2002-06-04, 22:07 |
hp
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
Are you saying that by declaring a war to a nation you can convince it's population to start liking you?
That's new.
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#58
2002-06-05, 00:41 |
Viper2002
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by Viper2002:
Once Iraq�s Government has been removed and a new one emplaced they will be able to join the international community and establish a real economy, then the Iraqi people wouldn�t be starving on the streets while the government spends millions in making weapons of mass destruction
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
If you want them to join the international community and establish a real economy, you can start by lifting the sanctions.
Iraq could never join the international community and establish a real economy while the current government is still emplaced. Removing the sanctions before the current government is removed would do more harm then good; it would only provide Iraq with more tools to fuel its massively expanding armoury of weapons. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
Yeah yeah yeah... 'Americans are good and the Iraquis are evil'... i've heard it all before, thank you very much.
I never said the Iraqi people were evil I said: quote:
Originally posted by Viper2002:
Iraq is a massive threat to all of our lives particularly their own peoples that threat needs to be isolated
The Iraqi government is the danger, and I never said just to us I said particularly to their own people. If they are going to run the country the way they are, they are the one putting the Iraqi civilians in danger not the West. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
even Hitler and the Axis had their reasons for starting WW2.
Obviously so but as I have already pointed out, it was for a completely different reason: quote:
Originally posted by Viper2002:
[b]The motivation for a possible attack on Iraq and Germanys motives for starting WW2 could not be more different
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
So i'll pose my question once again, how would you like to become that 'lucky civilian bonus' because of Tony Blair's decisions?
There is a big deference between starting a world war which would cost 56 million people there lives most of these people being citizens the defending states, and taking military action again a potentially very dangerous state such as Iraq with the intention of making the world safer for the average Iraqi and the rest of us. As much as I would like to answer your question I am not yet sure where I should start in my answer. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
Are you saying that by declaring a war to a nation you can convince it's population to start liking you?
I think what Izzy was trying to say was, once the current government was gone so would their propaganda campaign that all things American are Evil. quote:
Originally posted by hp:
The several cases of anthrax weren't war acts
The anthrax attacks could be ladled as not acts of war, I would agree with that point to an extent because they were committed by terrorists as opposed to another countries army. However if it proved to be correct that the anthrax was given to the terrorists by Iraq I would certainly consider that to be an act of war on Iraq�s behalf. Ill give you a little untrue example for arguments sake. Okay hp I know your view on the Palestinian suicide bomber situation, you condemn them all as acts of terrorism, fair enough that�s your opinion. If it emerged that an Arab nation was providing the suicide bombers with biological weapons (Stocks of anthrax) for a future attack on Israeli civilians. Answer questions 1,2 bellow honestly, please: quote:
Originally posted by hp:
The several cases of antrax weren't war acts
1. Would you not consider that an act of war on behalf of the Arab nation? quote:
Originally posted by hp:
No way could you use it as an excuse to bomb and/or invade a nation.
2. And would you not think that defensive attacks taken by Israel to destroy the risk of more biological weapons being provided by the Arab state as both legitimate (Non-Criminal) and Justified? VIPER |
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#59
2002-06-05, 00:50 |
Joe Boo
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
You don't need a war to do that. If you want them to join the international community and establish a real economy, you can start by lifting the sanctions.
We can excuse the invasion of Kuwait then, and the cruelity they did while occupying that country then?
But anyways, you seem to be missing the main point which I try to bring up for the third time already; I don't care whether this 'war on terrorism' is 'justified'
or not because after all, even Hitler and the Axis had their reasons for starting WW2.
I see your point there.
I am talking about the country who commits the first war act regardless of their reasons. In 1939, it was Germany, thus - according to your logic of course - allowing England to retaliate in whatever (or almost) way they pleased; in 2002, however, it shall be the English/American troops who will commit the first war acts,
Was killing 5,000 people and destroying two skyscrapers, not to mention an attack on our country's military headquarters, not an act of war? Or Kicking Iraq out of Kuwait? Do you even know what they were doing there?
thus - once again, according to your logic - allowing Iraq a full retaliation.
By firing Scuds at Israel who wasn't even involved in the Gulf War, and threatning them with Chemical and Bio weapons, That must be your definition of retaliation.
So i'll pose my question once again, how would you like to become that 'lucky civilian bonus' because of Tony Blair's decisions?
That threat of a "lucky civilian bonus is becoming diminished thanks to hunting down every single terrorist in the world.
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#60
2002-06-05, 03:44 |
Alan Smithee
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
I think using a biological weapon attack against a seat of government Is good enough reason to go to war. what do you have to wait untill your enemy commits a truly successfull attack before you can move agianst them. sure that logic is great for playground brawls kid but this is life and death. A failed attack is as justifieable a pretense as any other.
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#61
2002-06-05, 05:43 |
hp
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Iraq could never join the international community and establish a real economy while the current government is still emplaced.
You're assuming too much. quote:
Removing the sanctions before the current government is removed would do more harm then good; it would only provide Iraq with more tools to fuel its massively expanding armoury of weapons.
Aren't you among the people who claim that there's nothing wrong with keeping a huge military? quote:
The Iraqi government is the danger, and I never said just to us I said particularly to their own people. If they are going to run the country the way they are, they are the one putting the Iraqi civilians in danger not the West.
Since when do you care about other civilians? quote:
There is a big deference between starting a world war which would cost 56 million people there lives most of these people being citizens the defending states, and taking military action again a potentially very dangerous state such as Iraq with the intention of making the world safer for the average Iraqi and the rest of us.
Excuses excuses... A war is a war. And whenever a leader starts a war for whatever reasons he has, then according to your logic, the people of that nation should face the consequances. quote:
once the current government was gone so would their propaganda campaign that all things American are Evil.
That's rather naive. I can list you plenty of examples when a country invades another country because it wants to 'help the population' but in the end, the invaded country begins despising the invader as much as it hated the old regime. Surprisingly, not everyone is very fond of the idea of having soldiers running in your town under the pretext of 'saving you from the propaganda'. quote:
The anthrax attacks could be ladled as not acts of war, I would agree with that point to an extent because they were committed by terrorists as opposed to another countries army. However if it proved to be correct that the anthrax was given to the terrorists by Iraq I would certainly consider that to be an act of war on Iraq�s behalf.
Do you know how many weapons USA and England has sold to other countries which would be later on used as tools of destruction? If you consider this as an act of war, then your beloved England has declared war to almost every nation in the world through their continous arms sales. quote:
Answer questions 1,2 bellow honestly, please:
You want me to answer your question while you refuse to answer mine? Haha. Nice one. quote:
We can excuse the invasion of Kuwait then, and the cruelity they did while occupying that country then?
Since you're not the offended party in this deal, I don`t think you`re in a position to 'excuse' anyone. quote:
Was killing 5,000 people and destroying two skyscrapers, not to mention an attack on our country's military headquarters, not an act of war?
I fail to see what does it have to do with the topic at hand. quote:
By firing Scuds at Israel who wasn't even involved in the Gulf War, and threatning them with Chemical and Bio weapons, That must be your definition of retaliation.
??? What does this has to do with anything? quote:
That threat of a "lucky civilian bonus is becoming diminished thanks to hunting down every single terrorist in the world.
Did you even read my topic? You make absolutly no sense.
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#62
2002-06-05, 11:27 |
Viper2002
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
??? What does this has to do with anything?
quote:
Originally posted by hp:
Did you even read my topic? You make absolutly no sense.
Coming from the Man who has managed to Drag the discussion of WW2 bombing from Germany to Colonial Britain and now to Iraq. Where do you want to go next to distract us from the real debate? I Enjoy entering into this kind of debate with people but up to now you haven�t really said shit have you, If I am going to stay in this debate you are going to have to start posting some real replies instead of this usual shit: quote:
Originally posted by hp:
Excuses excuses...
As for the questions I set out for you, you don�t need to answer them you know as well as I do, your answers, the reason I did not answer your question is because it is completely out of context to the WW2 question we are debating. My questions fit perfectly over the Iraq discussion while your question is in entirely different circumstances in both cases. Rather than discredit you question and drag this debate down to a lower level I decided to pass on it, however if you would like me to answer it for you I will in one of my next postings to this topic. VIPER[This message has been edited by Viper2002 (edited 06-05-2002).] |
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#63
2002-06-05, 17:32 |
hp
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
We were talking about your theory which I opposed from my very begining. Since then, your theory was brought up on many occasions, and only in the later stages of this discussion I mentioned Colonian Britain and the attack of Iraq as examples to why your logic sucks.
It's only pity that you avoided all my examples. I would have loved to prove your hypocritical ass wrong.
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#64
2002-06-05, 18:16 |
Viper2002
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
Hp A Palestinian suicide bomber killed 16 people today.
Israel struck back with tanks and apache helicopters in civilian areas
You support Israel acting against its Terrorists but not America acting against theirs so you are a Hypocrite.
According to your lack of logic this was not an act of war on Palestine�s part, but yet I know you support Israel�s military response as you have said on many occasions in the �concerning Palestine forum�. Again According to your own lack of logic this is a crime on the Israelis part but you still openly support Israelis actions although you feel you have the right to criticize Americas and Great Britain�s. So I think that makes you an ill logical hypocrite who uses his attitude that all military attacks are crimes and Terrorist attacks are not acts of war when it suits you and the country you have decided to talk about.
You say you have spared me talking about more British crimes:
Why don�t you talk about the Israeli Crimes, which everybody knows you openly support you, hypocrite?
Viper
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#65
2002-06-05, 18:45 |
hp
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
I support Israel's retaliation?
Read that topic again and you'll see that we barely even discussed this part. All I said was that retaliation brings more retaliation. I'm certain that both lostmind and TheMouse will confirm that.
We only talked about the peace plan, which I said that Arafat should have accepted, while TheMouse insisted that the Jews should have offered more. You and lostmind were the only ones who talked about suicide bombings, where you openly encouraged Palestinians to blow up themselves as revenge for Israeli occupation.
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#66
2002-06-05, 19:05 |
hp
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
and just for the record:
We're not talking here about perpetuating direct actions. The antrax wasn't spread by Iraquis - it merely originated from there (and that's stil not 100% confirmed btw).
A better question would be: should the Palestinian consider the sale of weapons to the Isralies as a 'war act' from the British and American side?
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#67
2002-06-06, 04:38 |
Alan Smithee
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
If it was confirmed that it was given to alqeuda by Iraq with the knoledge that it wuold be used against us then it is a valid pretext for war.
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#68
2002-06-06, 07:27 |
hp
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
Are you trying to tell to me that whenever other countries sell weapons they have no knowledge against whom those weapons will be used?
Haha.
You're very fortunate that the Soviets didn't think that the sales of weapons qualifies as a direct action of war, otherwise, they would have bombed your gay ass 10 times already.
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#69
2002-06-06, 10:55 |
Viper2002
Regular
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Re: Unfair in history....
There is a difference in providing a countries army and government with weapons in peacetime and selling biological weapons, which are illegal under several international laws to Islamic terrorists planning to use them against American leaders in attempts on their lives.
VIPER
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