I really do think he changed his name to hp because we all ragged on him too much.

naw, hp supports the israeli's,

messer was one of those who went against popular opinion,

just for the sake of going against popular opinion.

If you want to know that badly, why don't you email messer?

Nox

try www.lifeisannoying.com

bet you thought i didnt read this forum...

I did

Why do you keep on mentioning Messer's name over and over and over again? Is there anything that you wanna tell us, Spirit?

And I don't know why do you think i'm him. Are we really that much alike?

quote:

---

hp supports the israeli's

---

I don't support the Israelis as a whole.

I support the offer by Barak and regret that Arafat has refused it. I also support Israel's right to exist on their legaly owned land as defined by 1948 border.

But,

I don't support the recent invasion in the West Bank (although I admit that Israel had little choice) and I also disagree with the Sharon Government.

It's dissapointing that we never reached that part because TheMouse and Viper kept on throwing rediculous accusations towards Israel.

What ridiculous accusations?

"They [Israel] can also stop sucking out the tax dollars of the U.S. and Britain. Sorry don't want to fund someone's colonial expansion."
(posted 05-03-2002 19:54)

Here you're accusing Israel of colonial expansion.

"I don't support genocide, which is why I'm against Israel"
(posted 05-04-2002 14:57)

Here you're accusing Israel of comming acts of genocide.


Those two are the most obvious ones. The rest can be spotted if someone actually cared to read that 6 pages discussion.



[This message has been edited by hp (edited 05-12-2002).]

Colonial Expansion? Illegal settlements in the heart of occupied territory that the U.N told them to pull out of on Resolution 242, paid for with U.S. tax dollars. That part is true. I don't know what else you would call it. Camping?

http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/uploads/339_map.jpgdu3glx.jpg

Genocide? I used a bad world, Ethnic Cleansing or Apartheid is a better one. 40% of Israelis believe in forcibly expelling all Arabs out of "Eretz Israel" according to a poll I've read a bunch of times (politely calling it "transfer") and it's even openly talked about by Republican congressmen bought off by AIPAC. I've seen headlines in their papers and speeches from them panicking about the "demographic threat". In other words, some of them are threatened by the very presence of Arabs because they have babies and might outnumber Jews in a few decades. The very idea of a "Jewish Nation" is a shaky one considering that it relies totally on convincing jews around the world to immigrate there. That's why they have movements in Israel such as the "Kahane Lives!" crap and the "Kach" who are viciously racist against Arabs and have members who are guilty of some "not so nice" behavior. A lot of settlers revere Goldstein, who went into a mosque on Ramallah and gunned down about 30 people while they were praying.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_685000/685792.stm

Normally I wouldn't pay attention to such whackos as these, but considering the Israeli government's stance on settlements and Sharon's far-right beliefs, they aren't as "marginal" as one would assume.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 05-12-2002).]

Right on.

Hp you realy are full of shit. I cant help it if I dont have your great acceptance of all things israeli. And I think its quite funny that you think the only people who have made ridiculous comments are the people who dissagree with you and your pathetic points of view. And judging from your angree response to this forum I can only assume you are messer so I think ill address you as messer from now on.

Thanx messer

--=Viper=--

And by the way messer if you are going to be arogant then atleast be consistant.

Do your views change with your mood?

(Remember consistancy is the key messer)

--=\/IPER=--

Mouse,

You said:

it's even openly talked about by Republican congressmen bought off by AIPAC.

Because you said congressMEN, that's why Hillary baby doesn't count....oops, you said Republican.

Nox

No one likes Messer.

I know that some democrats are as viciously pro-Israel. However, I'm talking about a certain Republican..

CHRIS MATTHEWS, host: Congressman Dick Armey of Texas leads the Republicans in the US House of Representatives.

Congressman Armey, Mr. Majority Leader, why is the Congress about to pass a resolution supporting Israel at a time that the president is trying to walk a line between Israel and its Arab neighbors?

Representative RICHARD ARMEY (Republican, Majority Leader): Well, we've had--we feel very strongly in the House of Representatives that we have a moral obligation to protect the safety, security and freedom of Israel. And the Congress wants to speak on that, both bodies want to do so. We've discussed it with the White House, and everybody is comfortable. We will go--go ahead with that tomorrow. It is very important to the world that Israel be--the freedom of Israel be protected and honored.

MATTHEWS: What good is this going to do anybody?

Rep. ARMEY: Well, I think, again, we--we want to make the point...

MATTHEWS: To whom?

Rep. ARMEY: The president of the United States is trying to make a transition in foreign policy from what it has been to what it must be in the future. We can no longer appease aggressors in the Middle East. There obviously will never be a peace. The goal is no Jews between them and the sea, and we must make it very clear that if you want to talk about peace and talk the talk, you must walk the walk, and that must be respect for Israel's right to live freely, safely and securely.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let's talk about the realities over there. There's a fight between the Arabs and the--and the Israelis over who owns the Pal--all of Palestine. Do you support the idea that there be a Palestine state alongside Israel?

Rep. ARMEY: I am perfectly content to have a Palestinian state alongside Israel if it is a state that honors others borders.

MATTHEWS: You are in total, 180 disagreement with Tom Delay who said this week that the entire West Bank belongs to Israel and it belongs to that country that's not an Arab country.

Rep. ARMEY: I...

MATTHEWS: It should not have a statehood.

Rep. ARMEY: No, I'm perfectly content to have a Palestinian state. I am not content to give up any part of Israel for that purpose of that Palestinian state.

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. Tom Delay's, whose resolution you're going to put on the floor tomorrow and schedule, has said that the entire West Bank, he calls it Judean Samaria, belongs to Israel. How can you say that this resolution doesn't support the Delay position which is Israel has a right to grab the entire West Bank?

Rep. ARMEY: No, I--I'm content to have Israel grab the entire West Bank. I'm also content to have the Palestinians have a homeland and even for that to be somewhere near Israel, but I'm not content to see Israel give up land for the purpose of peace to the Palestinians who will not accept it and would not honor it. It is time to...

MATTHEWS: Well, where do you put the Palestinian state, in Norway? Once the Israelis take back the West Bank permanently and annex it, there's no place else for the Palestinians to have a state.

Rep. ARMEY: No, no, that's not--that's not at all true. There are many Arab nations that have many hundreds of thousands of acres of land and--and soil and property and opportunity to create a Palestinian state.

MATTHEWS: So you would transport--you would transport the Palestinians from Palestine to somewhere else and call it their state?

Rep. ARMEY: I would be perfectly content to have a homeland, just as--most of...

MATTHEWS: But not in Palestine?

Rep. ARMEY: Most of the people who now populate Israel were transported from all over the world to that land and they made it their home. The Palestinians can do the same, and we're per--perfectly content to work with the Palestinians in doing that. We are not willing to sacrifice Israel for the notion of a Palestinian homeland.

MATTHEWS: Right, no. No, that's not the question and that's not your answer. The question here is: What is the future of the Palestinians who are fighting Israel right now? You say there future is somewhere besides Palestine. That runs in the way of US policy going back to 1948. It runs--it runs completely against the president's policy and every policy I've heard a president take, which is that Israel has to give up its settlements on the West Bank and give it back to the Arabs in exchange for peace. You say the deal should be the Palestinians leave?

Rep. ARMEY: That's right. Palestinians say the deal should be the Israel--that--that the Israelis leave.

MATTHEWS: Have you talked about this with the president?

Rep. ARMEY: I happened to believe that the Palestinians should leave.

MATTHEWS: Have you ever told George Bush, the president from your home state of Texas, that you think the Palestinians should get up and go and leave Palestine and that's the solution?

Rep. ARMEY: I'm probably telling him that right now. This is...

MATTHEWS: Have you thought this through?

Rep. ARMEY: I have thought this through. I've thought it through for a lot of years. I believe that Israel is the state for the Jewish people. It needs to be honored. It needs to be protected.

MATTHEWS: Yeah. That's not what you're saying. You're saying Israel should expand its borders to the Jordan River...

Rep. ARMEY: No.

MATTHEWS: ...and kick out all the Palestinians? That's what you just said.

Rep. ARMEY: I am--I am content to have Israel occupy that land that it now occupies and to have those people who have been aggressors against Israel retired to some other arena, and I would be happy to have them make a home. I would be happy to have all of these Arab nations that have been so hell bent to drive Israel out of the Middle East to get together, find some land and make a home for the Palestinians. I think it can be done.

MATTHEWS: So the president, who has been dutifully, for the last couple of weeks, trying to get the Israeli army to withdraw from the West Bank, should stop that, let the Israeli defense force take over the West Bank and hold it and make it part of Israel? You completely disagree with the president's policy then?

Rep. ARMEY: I am--I am perfectly content to have Israel hold and occupy the land that it has at this moment.

MATTHEWS: Well, how about though-how about the Jenin in Samaria? Tom Delay, whose measure you're putting on the floor tomorrow, says that all the West Bank, Jenin, Judea, Masada, everything belongs to Israel. It's not occupied territory. It's Israeli. Is that your position?

Rep. ARMEY: Well, first of all, Chris, I think we have to be real careful on how you are interpreting jo--Tom's provision. I think Tom's provision is principally and primarily that the Jewish people have a right to defend themselves.

MATTHEWS: Well, just to repeat, you believe that the Palestinians who are now living on the West Bank should get out of there?

Rep. ARMEY: Yes.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you very much. More with Congressman Dick Armey coming back. You're watching HARDBALL.

Sorry, I'm just trying to rack up posts, but seriously, no one like Messer.

quote:

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Colonial Expansion? Illegal settlements in the heart of occupied territory that the U.N told them to pull out of on Resolution 242, paid for with U.S. tax dollars.

---

Perhaps you could classify this as colonial expansion to an extent, however, if you consider the amount of countries who have anexed land throughout the history, the case with Palestine is not anything special.

Most of all, you must remember that Israel did not make the first move. They had no intention of extending their territories until the continous attacks (including a 3 fully scaled wars) from their Arab neighbours forced them to occupy the region for safety purposes.

quote:

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Genocide? I used a bad world

---

Yes you did.

So that's at least one rediculous accusation off the list. I wonder why took you so long to correct yourself though. This is the THIRD time I brought up your genocide comment because you ignored the previous two and continued to post me your shitty articles.

quote:

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40% of Israelis believe in forcibly expelling all Arabs out of "Eretz Israel"

---

Well, let's see, in the last topic ("concerning Palestine"), everytime the suicide bombing by the Palestinian terrorists was brought up, you claimed that this was a product of Israel's way of treating Palestinians (which is true to some extent). So what i'm gonna do is, i'm gonna justify the forced explusion proposed by those 40% Israelis (note: this forced expulsion didn't happen. it's just a proposition) by saying that this is a product of the suicide bombings by the Palestianins.

Agreed?

quote:

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I've seen headlines in their papers and speeches from them panicking about the "demographic threat".

---

Well gee, if you gonna accept millions of refugees into a country of 6 million, of course you gonna have a demographic threat.

I wonder what kind of a reaction there will be if President Bush announces that 150 million Mexicans are allowed to freely come to USA.

quote:

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A lot of settlers revere Goldstein, who went into a mosque on Ramallah and gunned down about 30 people while they were praying.

---

Isn't it funny how the Palestinians do the exact same thing every day?

quote:

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Normally I wouldn't pay attention to such whackos as these, but considering the Israeli government's stance on settlements and Sharon's far-right beliefs, they aren't as "marginal" as one would assume.

---

Wow. 40 celebrants have gathered up to praise the terrorist who killed 29 Muslims. What a big number. LOL.

But nothing comparing to the thousands rallying in the West Bank after every suicide bombing, eh?


[This message has been edited by hp (edited 05-12-2002).]

Viper, why are you stil replying to me? Don't you remember this?

"Until you stop being a fool I refuse to reply to any of your posts."
(posted 05-02-2002 20:19)

So fuck off. I don't want nothing to do with you.

quote:

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Most of all, you must remember that Israel did not make the first move. They had no intention of extending their territories until the continous attacks (including a 3 fully scaled wars) from their Arab neighbours forced them to occupy the region for safety purposes.

---

Unless you take into account the formation of Israel itself, which was colonization by immigrants in majority Arab land to make a Jewish state. That was essentially the first move.

quote:

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Yes you did.

So that's at least one rediculous accusation off the list.

---

I'm not taking back my accusation of an apartheid system moving towards ethnic cleansing one bit.

quote:

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Well, let's see, in the last topic ("concerning Palestine"), everytime the suicide bombing by the Palestinian terrorists was brought up, you claimed that this was a product of Israel's way of treating Palestinians (which is true to some extent). So what i'm gonna do is, i'm gonna justify the forced explusion proposed by those 40% Israelis (note: this forced expulsion didn't happen. it's just a proposition) by saying that this is a product of the suicide bombings by the Palestianins.

Agreed?

---

Not quite. Palestinians want Israel to stop occupying them so they can form a state at the '67 borders with East Jerusalem as capitol. A few of them suicide bomb as revenge for the shelling and bombings they get from helicopters and missiles. Israel wants all of the Arabs out of "Eretz Israel" so they can have the land all for themselves as a "Jewish Nation". The settlements and the belief that they need to remove the Arabs from Israel began a long time before the first suicide bombing. So, by looking at the settlements, Israel wanted the west bank and gaza long before the first suicide bomb. The very formation of Israel relied on getting Arabs out of there. Thus, you have the Deir Yassin massacres, etc.

quote:

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Well gee, if you gonna accept millions of refugees into a country of 6 million, of course you gonna have a demographic threat.

I wonder what kind of a reaction there will be if President Bush announces that 150 million Mexicans are allowed to freely come to USA.

---

Wrong. You misunderstood. They are worrying about the demographic threat of the Arab population that already lives in Israel as citizens.

quote:

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Wow. 40 celebrants have gathered up to praise the terrorist who killed 29 Muslims. What a big number. LOL.

---

It's not 40 celebrants. It's thousands of settlers who hold those beliefs. It's thousands of Israelis who sympathize with the Kahane movement, the Kach, the people crazy extremist fanatic Zionists. They got caught trying to blow up the Al Aqsa Mosque to start a holy war with the Arab countries and bring about "the real redemption of God's Chosen" and the return of the Messiah. And we obsess over Muslim fanatics! Gee whiz. They consider it a messianic duty to take over all the land to the Jordan River. You'd think that it would be 'just a fringe movement', but then wonder why does Israel spend thousands of dollars more to keep these armed settlers comfortable in the west bank than they do on people who live within Israel itself?. It makes me wonder.

quote:

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Unless you take into account the formation of Israel itself, which was colonization by immigrants in majority Arab land to make a Jewish state. That was essentially the first move.

---

No. That was imigration plain and simple.

I fail to see the colonian expension which you're talking about.

quote:

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I'm not taking back my accusation of an apartheid system moving towards ethnic cleansing one bit.

---

At least you took the genocide one back.

As for the ethnic cleansing, you're wrong about this one too. Surely, there are (unfortunatly) many cases of racism and descrimination which make the lives of Israeli-Arabs extremly diffucult and might encourage them to move away, however, there hasn't been a single forced expulsion of Arabs (aside those that occured in wars, but we've been over this already) for no apparent reason.

quote:

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Palestinians want Israel to stop occupying them so they can form a state at the '67 borders with East Jerusalem as capitol.

---

Palestine has harboured and supported many terrrorist organisations prior to 1967. Before Israel showed it's military power and made clear that they will not be chased away, all the terrorist organisations (and their respective governments) vowed to completly destroy Israel.

quote:

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A few of them suicide bomb as revenge for the shelling and bombings they get from helicopters and missiles.

---

Lol. There's a bit more than 'few' of them. Polls everywhere showed that the majority of Palestinians accept suicide bombing as a way of putting pressure on Israel to create the Palestinian state. Whether the Palestinians are justified in believing so is non-important, I just want you to understand that suicide bombings are NOT isolated incidents.

As for the 'revenge for missiles and shellings' part, that's also highly debatable. Everytime there's a conflict, the 'he started it' arguments are always the most pathetic ones. I honestly don't wanna get into it.

quote:

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They are worrying about the demographic threat of the Arab population that already lives in Israel as citizens.

---

I've never heard about this one being as a particular concern especialy if you consider the percentage of the Israeli-Arabs living Israel - they hardly represent a demographic threat.

quote:

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It's thousands of settlers who hold those beliefs

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Thousands out of six millions doesn't seem that bad to me.

quote:

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You'd think that it would be 'just a fringe movement', but then wonder why does Israel spend thousands of dollars more to keep these armed settlers comfortable in the west bank than they do on people who live within Israel itself?

---

People always get subventions from the Government when they live in un-desired places.

>>>I have no intentions of replying to you.<<<
Origionally posted by Messer


Remember posting this Messer. I think you probably dont your so fucking thick I dont beleive you could remember saying it after all of a month. You keep saying you dont want anything to do with me but you keep talking about me, do I mean that much to you, im sorry messer but I dont like you in that way, its nothing personal boys just dont do it for me.

Messer your obviously just a child, go play with the little kids (actually dont I wouldent trust you with one).

No one likes you messer go post your shit somewhere else.

//+--=Viper=--+\\

LOL. Yes, I posted it first and you stil continued to reply to me.

I thought maybe your own words would be convincing for you. I guess they aren't either. So just shut up right now. I won't reply anyways.

Dont be like that messer I told you its nothing personal, just because I dont fancy boys we can still be freinds. You have now said you dont wish to speek to me on four different occasions, why is it I still await another of your pathetic posts directed at me? Forget about me im sure one day you will find a nice boy to settle down with.

(Remember what I said earier Consistencies the key messer)

--=Viper=--

For all those wondering, I was just loaded with work and had no time to come post on totse. I have my IB exams currently. On a secondary note, I am not hp. How often do we have to repeat that?

Actually, MSSR hasn't been posting at LIA either. And he doesn't always go against popular opinion, because he tried to hold an anti-Le`Pen rally. I believe MSSR is one of those people who goes against rationality for the sake of going against rationality. Or perhaps he is a conformist, but none of us notice it because he's Belgian.

I believe its the latter. There is not one stance he takes that contradicts the published code of conduct from the European Union Ivory Tower.

Figures

I find it amusing to think some people are sufficiently obstinate to allege I am Belgian at this stage where I have innumerable times refuted that. It is also entertaining to consider that an �litist and a reactionary deem my views as irrational whereas they are the ones alienating themselves from society.

You are subject to the constant stream of Brussels thought, so for the purpose of this discussion you are Belgian.