totse.com | Concerning Palestine

This particular thread is a partial recovery - pages 1, 2, 4, 5 of its original capture were never archived, so some posts from those pages are missing below.

2002-04-30, 19:35

TheMouse

Regular

Concerning Palestine

I like most Jews. I just hate Zionism. I like the Anti-Zionist Jews. I just hate the very very bad kind of Jew like Ariel Sharon.

He's a very bad man, and needs to be sent to his room without dessert.

2002-05-01, 03:17

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

Excelent, TheMouse. I see you've been browsing a lot of pro-Palestinian/anti-Isreal websites. They surely contain a great deal of one-sided information. (same was as the pro-Isreal/anti-Palestinian sites would)

Most importantly though, you missed the point where I said "however, the war that broke out in 1948 made things more complicated."

As I said, it was a war - and not just any kind of war since the people living in Palestine had no official armies - but it was something very close to a 'civil war', or even a revolution. The villages were destroyed because they harboured Arab militia. All the Arabs who didn't want to do anything with the war have fled; those however, who chose to participate in this conflict and fight against the Jews have remained in their houses and by consequance, became Jew's ennemies.

This is indeed very reminiscent of the America civil war, or any other civil war for that matter. In such wars, the civil population is caught between two cross-fires and is forced to choose their side, which naturaly provokes the hatred of the opposite side. All those who sympathise with the ennemy must be stopped (sometimes by brutal means); failure to stop the network which helps the ennemy will loose you the war and geopardize the life of your soldiers and your people.

If you classify this as a crime, you would be 100% correct; however, since every single country who ever faced such situation used the exact same means, you cannot hold Isreal directly responsible for it, or else, you'd have to put the whole world into jail.

More importantly, what do you think the Arabs would have done if they were in Isreal's shoes? If the outcome of the war had been different and instead of proclaiming Isreal's independance, the whole land would have passed under Arab authority, how do you think would the Arabs handle the 600 000 Jews (most of which would be women and children considering that the males were killed in war)?

If you think that major cities (founded by Jews) such as Tel Aviv, Haifa, Herzliah, Petah'-Tikva would have been left with a Jewish majority under the Arab authority, then you are a naive fool.

quote:
There has never been any proof of that. A British MP, Chris Mayhew, offered to pay anyone who can bring him proof that Nassar said he wanted to throw the jews into the sea, and no one was able to do it. One guy even tried to take him to court, but Britain's High Court of Justice did some research and could find no proof that any of those statements were made by the Arab leaders.

You don't mind if I use your own quote to reply to this paragraph?

"Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy..."

Remplace the name 'Ben Gurion' with the name 'Nassar' and the word 'Arabs' with the word 'Jews' and you'll get the idea.

Just because there wasn't any official recording on Nassar proposal doesn't mean it's not true. Everyone knew that if the Jews fail to defend their newely created state, a terrible genocide and general explusion would begin.

As you cited me, 'co-existance was impossible'.

And now to Viper: (i'm skipping Spirit's part cause he's an idiot anyways and i've argued with him enough already)

quote:
The asian population is growing so quickly a state of their own will soon be unrefuseable.

The British Government, as well as any other Government, has methods of 'acculturation' and 'assimilation'. After a generation or so, the Asians become no less British than the your average Brit.

It happened in Canada, it happened in USA, it happend in Australia and in other countries who have witness massive imigration over the years. Countries don't lose their idenity, if anything, they gain something from the new-comers - not the other way around. There has been numerous studies conducted in that field, and I assure you that the souvereignity of your country is safe.

But if you're really that miss-informed, I really can't help you. I strongly reccomend to read some books on imigration and the process that is happening to the new-comers once they find themselves in their new country.

I have other stuff to do.

2002-05-01, 10:41

Spirit of '22 Spirit of '22 is offline

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

hp, what wonderful innovation was Britain missing out on until letting in a million cheap laborers from Asia?

2002-05-01, 13:32

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

I got those quotes from Jewish pages and Israeli historians who don't put out the Zionist party line. Deir Yassin was a total massacre that the Zionists don't even want to talk about. Most of the Jewish people living in Palestine before the world wars lived in peace with the Arabs and weren't interested in a Jewish state. Actually, most Jewish people altogether oppossed Zionism. Israel was founded on a bunch of mass immigrations at the expense of the people who have been living their for generations.

Imagine if you will, the state you live in was flooded with immigrants. That wouldn't be a bad thing in itself. But imagine if all the sudden they wanted to make their own state on land that you live in of say.. Scientologists. They want to make a Scientologist State over your city after bringing in mass immigrations of Scientologists based on some text in Dianetics that said that your town was the "landing area" of some aliens centuries ago and they need to be in that area because it's special to them. Would you be happy about that? Would you give a flying fuck that they think that area is important to them even though they didn't even grow up there? I wouldn't. If they tried to take over my town, I'd join a militia too.

2002-05-01, 13:35

FuckOffandDie FuckOffandDie is offline

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
How come when Gandhi tells the world India should be for the Indians, people cheer, and when an angry British kid tells the world Britain should be for the British, people yell?

Because Asians haven't imposed a government upon the British.

quote:
It was estimated that in the next three years the asian population in Britain could rise to over 19%.

I don't believe that for a second. State your source

quote:
The asian population is growing so quickly a state of their own will soon be unrefuseable

As far as I am aware, no Asian has ever proposed a state of their own within Britain. Since the Asian population generally live within sections of metropolitan areas separated by predominantly white areas of the town and country, it would also be ridiculous from a purely geographical point of view. It isn't going to happen. Your fears of an Asian state are preposterous.

quote:
Soon the vote will not be representive of the british peoples feelings.

You have to be a British citizen to vote. I see no political groups aimed soley at the asian population having any success whatsoever.

quote:
what wonderful innovation was Britain missing out on until letting in a million cheap laborers from Asia?

What wonderful innovation has Britain missed out on by letting in a million cheap labourers from Asia?
The NHS, for example, would be virtually unsustainable without the presence of Asian workers.

2002-05-01, 14:18

Spirit of '22 Spirit of '22 is offline

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

What the hell is the NHS?

anyway...

>>>Because Asians haven't imposed a government upon the British.<<<<

The classic Democratic pattern is sure to follow in Britain. It followed in every civilization that allowed other, particularly conquered, races into their system.
First, they start coming in big enough numbers that everyone in Britain (or any civilization) is aware of their presence. They are visible and an undeniable part of daily life's landscape.
Power takes advantage of them, and people removed from that Power feel sorry, and they get all kindsa welfare or unequal advantages, like affirmative action, or lopsided judicial treatment in hate crime laws, etc.
Other power structures, in the meantime, move to gain the support of both the people that feel sorry for them, and the new-comers themselves, and play the moral duty, were all human card, everytime. Sounds noble, but in the end its only a way of empowering the "representatives" leading this charge.
Now, in order to save moral face, the status quo accepts the new-comers with votes (as has happened in America with illegal immigrants, lessening the time for naturalization, etc etc) All those new-comers support the liars who championed them to gain power. At the same time, a small number of the better among the new-comers or conquered have taken advantage of new programs in their favor, and advance on their own, giving an example to both allies and critics.
The new-comers get power, and the snowball has already begun, so by then they cannot be ignored or opposed successfully short of a civil war.
Conditions change, the new-comers make the original land decay (especially by continuing the cycle and opening the doors to more new-comers for even cheaper labor) The original civilizers mix with them in all classes.
Finally, you have (Insert name of dead or dying civilization)

2002-05-01, 14:46

Viper2002

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

I beleive there is a document somewhere on this site which details the areas that asians are trying to gain aurthority of. If you want it find it.

As for you saying I should name my sources, Im a clever guy I know alot of things I dont memorize where I leant them all. The source of most of your comments seems to be your arse fool.

Whats this contribution they have made to the NHS? The only contribution they seem to have made is the odd asian doctor who cant speak proper english.

2002-05-01, 17:02

FuckOffandDie FuckOffandDie is offline

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
As for you saying I should name my sources, Im a clever guy I know alot of things I dont memorize where I leant them all. The source of most of your comments seems to be your arse fool.

You should name your source because it is incredible, in the sense that it lacks credibility.

Since there are 1.9 million Pakistanis, Indians and Bangladeshis (the range of ethnic groups usually classed as Asian) in a country of 60 million, with an estimated growth in that population of 9.5%pa, (clickwalla.com) your figure of 19% is obviously wildly wrong. Did you, by any chance pull it out of your posterior?

That's a lovely paranoid theory Spirit. Shame there are no Asian political parties in power (in fact, the British National Party gets more votes), and few Asian MPs. Now, name a civilisation that was destroyed by a minority group winning a democratic election.

quote:
Whats this contribution they have made to the NHS? The only contribution they seem to have made is the odd asian doctor who cant speak proper english.

There are a lot of Asians in the medical profession. Considering the desperate shortages of staff, this can only be a good thing.

2002-05-01, 18:18

Spirit of '22 Spirit of '22 is offline

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

Doctors is not a contribution of another ethnic group; English people made fine doctors without them.

>>>That's a lovely paranoid theory Spirit. Shame there are no Asian political parties in power (in fact, the British National Party gets more votes), and few Asian MPs.<<<<

I didnt say anything about an Asian political party, only a British one that sides with Asians.

>>>Now, name a civilisation that was destroyed by a minority group winning a democratic election.<<<<

Thats not what I said. I said native parties cater to the growing masses of newcomers, eventually putting them side by side with the natives in position of power, catering to them at the expense of the native people, and accepting them as brothers. That breeds out or silences the native people who built and maintained the civilization, and it dies. Like I said, you can name any civilization that fell on its own accord and this is the scenario, though in some places, just replace newcomer with lower-classes.

#10

2002-05-01, 21:02

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

history class:

in 1947 following wwII the israeli's were given land in what is called palestine(which included jordan and syria).

the dismantling of the british empire in that area declared that countries will be established according to their population areas.

israel was given a strip of land 200 miles long and 8 miles wide, a palestinian state was to be included right beside israel,

palestinians declined because they didn't want any part of the land, they wanted all the land, including jordan, syria, and lebanon.

as a result, jordan, syria, and lebanon invaded the palestinian land and put the palestinians in "refugee camps", since they didn't want them as citizens.

the city of jenin was a jordanian refugee camp up until 1967, when israel removed the barbed wire fences and guard towers with shoot to kill authority, as lebanon still has with palestinian refugees in the "DISPUTED LAND" at golan heights, yet lebanon won't surrender this land to a palestinian state.

in 1967, the arab nations decided to rise up against israel, and the combined might of the arab nations could not infiltrate a border 8 miles deep, and in fact lost 4 miles into jordan and syria.

the four miles of land lost, palestinian refugee camps.

the only reason arabs support a palestinian state is because they'd rather have the palestinians own it, than the jews.

an alternate history question......

what if...

israel had not taken the 4 miles of land in jordan and syria in 1967.

and the disputed palestinian land, would still be in control of the arab nations of jordan and syria.

would there be a palestinian nation? there wasn't from 1947 to 1967, only after israel took the land did talk of a palestinian start.

would the un want to investigate the atrocities of jenin under jordanian rule? in almost 60 years the un has had no interest in the atrocities the lebanese inflict upon the palestinians at the golan heights.

now a future history question...

when....

the palestinians do have their own nation, will the lebanese return the golan heights to the palestinians and end the refugee camps and guard towers with shoot to kill authority? they've had the chance since 1947 to give palestine their own state, but when it comes to arabs surrendering land, that's completely unacceptable.

how come in 1993 when the oslo accord was signed defining palestinian territories and allowing palestinians self-rule...

how come yasser arafat didn't start implementing a government?

how come yasser arafat didn't start working on a palestinian economy?

how come yasser arafat didn't start working on a palestinian military?

what has yasser arafat done?

increased suicide bombings in israel, targeting discotheques and worship services.

after israel agreed to 97% of palestinians demands in 2000, in total disregard of any thing close to what one would call a compromise, arafat declares a second intafada(sp), the first came in 1967, which basically means the annihilation of the jews not as a state, but as a people.

which is why public places are targeted, a government is worthless without it's people.

because leader he is not, fighting is all he's known his whole life, deception is all he's known his whole life. he claims to be a palestinian born in jerusalem, when in reality he is an egyptian born in cairo, exiled for his militant mentality.

do i have sympathy for the palestinians,

no.

as history has shown, neither have the arabs, unless israel is involved, and only where israel is involved, since no arab nation has spoken to lebanon about their refugee camps.

spirit, you mentioned at the beginning you never watch the news.

perhaps you should watch more, you're decision is based upon the common and uninformed knowledge that israel aquired this land by force and forced the palestinians into this predicament.

why are the arab nations so behind a palestinian state, and so against israeli retaliation?

because as hezbollah said in 1993 at the signing of the oslo accord, terrorism works, and it allows governments to effect global policies without said government being publicly involved.

it also undermines the united states position on not negotiating with terrorists.

while the europeans condemn israel for it's military action, out of what i can only call fear because of the proximity to the arab nations.

there's a lot of two faced nations in the world right now, identities readily available.

the united states-no negatiating with terrorists, terrorists will be dealt with by force-terrorism in israel though must go unpunished to maintain global stability.

the europeans-the total condemnation of all terrorist acts-except those by palestinians, followed by a condemnation of israeli military retaliation while at the same time stationing troops in afghanistan which didn't even involve them directly.

the arabs-there can be no peace until the palestinian people have their own state-nevermind that lebanon is doing the same thing we are accusing the israeli's of doing.

the russians and chinese-condemning terrorism, while most terrorist weapons are of chinese and russian design.

it seems the only nation in the world at the moment that one can take at face value, is israel.

despite overwhelming support for israel in america, it appears that duplicity is truly the respected position the world over.

#11

2002-05-01, 21:25

malaria

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

http://www.kfi640.com/media/Isreal-State.pdf

#12

2002-05-01, 23:09

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
in 1947 following wwII the israeli's were given land in what is called palestine(which included jordan and syria).

People who lived on that land weren't consulted about this.

quote:
israel was given a strip of land 200 miles long and 8 miles wide, a palestinian state was to be included right beside israel,

palestinians declined because they didn't want any part of the land, they wanted all the land, including jordan, syria, and lebanon.

No. The Partition Plan gave 55 percent of the land to the Jews even though they were only 34 percent of the population and only owned 6 percent of the land. The Arab state was to have the leftover 34 percent of the land. So, the minority of the population got the majority of the land. They rejected it because it was pretty much unfair.

quote:
how come yasser arafat didn't start implementing a government?

They did start implementing a government.. thus they had the PA police forces, jails, etc.

quote:
how come yasser arafat didn't start working on a palestinian economy?

Their economy was sabatoged by Israeli rules. Massive roadblocks and checkpoints created the loss of many jobs, and Palestinian products were not allowed to compete with Israeli products. Israel was in control of the water and electricity. People from the occupied territories were used as cheap labor for Israel. Palestinian homes were bulldozed to make Jewish only settlements and their farms and orchards (their olive trees were often their source of livelyhood) were either bulldozed by the IDF or uprooted by violent settler gangs.

quote:
how come yasser arafat didn't start working on a palestinian military?

They had a police force. If he started building up a military, you know the IDF would have called it a "terrorist threat" to throw jews into the sea and try to dismantle it.

quote:
increased suicide bombings in israel, targeting discotheques and worship services.

Yes, Arafat increased the bombings. Right. The bombings would have happened regardless of Arafat being there. People don't like being governed by a foreign hostile military presence. Need I mention that Israeli terrorists gunned down worshippers at a mosque and riot in Palestinian neighborhoods and Israel does close to nothing when Israelis slaughter Arabs? Three times as many Palestinian civilians have been killed in the second Intifada (a third of which are children) than Israelis.

quote:
after israel agreed to 97% of palestinians demands in 2000, in total disregard of any thing close to what one would call a compromise, arafat declares a second intafada(sp), the first came in 1967, which basically means the annihilation of the jews not as a state, but as a people.

No. Israelis were never going to give them 97% of the demands.

Again..

What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."

The proposal would have meant:

-no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
-no control of its external borders,
limited control of its own water resources, and
-no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.

In addition, the Barak plan would have :

-included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
-codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
-meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
-required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community."

The words of Clinton's assistant..

"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises."

Yet, it was repeated throughout the media that Barak gave a generous offer and Arafat refused because he doesn't want Israel to exist...

Another bad assumption is that he "started" the Intifada. You can't make happy content people angry about nothing for no cause. After having their homes bulldozed and trees uprooted to make room for Jewish Only settlements, I think it's safe to say that the people were pissed off and had enough, Arafat or no.

The MAIN things they have been asking for is the evacuation of most of the settlements, an end to the occupation and an INDEPENDANT state. Anyone who really knew about the deal could not see Arafat (or anyone) accepting a deal like what was offered.

quote:
which is why public places are targeted, a government is worthless without it's people.

Public places are targeted out of revenge. Israel doesn't mind bombing public Palestinian places and homes, nor do they do much about Israeli settlers rioting in Palestinian places. They're just following "Eye for an Eye" pretty much.

quote:
because leader he is not, fighting is all he's known his whole life, deception is all he's known his whole life. he claims to be a palestinian born in jerusalem, when in reality he is an egyptian born in cairo, exiled for his militant mentality.

I have some excellent things to say about Ariel Sharon. Mr. "Our hands are clean but the UN can't come see" or Mr. "Sabra Shatila"

quote:
perhaps you should watch more, you're decision is based upon the common and uninformed knowledge that israel aquired this land by force and forced the palestinians into this predicament.

The worst way to get information is by watching television news, which blatantly warps the truth and tells myths like "Barak offered 90% of the land to Arafat" bullshit and rarely reports on any deaths of Palestinian civilians, or loss of homes, or human rights violations because they're too afraid of the ADL and Jewish Lobbies having a bitch fit about something being too "Anti Israel therefore Anti Semitic". The best way to get information is to just do lots of research on your own.

quote:
it also undermines the united states position on not negotiating with terrorists.

Israel has terrorist gangs too, and we have no problem negotiating with the government that harbors THEM do we?

quote:
while the europeans condemn israel for it's military action, out of what i can only call fear because of the proximity to the arab nations.

Europeans condemn Israel because they aren't as brainwashed by a media that's over knee deep in Israeli lobbyists. Israel has continuously ignored U.N. resolutions, the Geneva Convention, and International Law (they even lie about it.. like they lied about their use of torture).

quote:
there's a lot of two faced nations in the world right now, identities readily available.

Like Israel, the almighty country of "Pity us, we're always the victims so give us billions of your tax dollars in military aid tto shell Palestinian homes while we ignore international law and spam all your newspapers with letters and hate mail if you dare to report anything against us"

quote:
the arabs-there can be no peace until the palestinian people have their own state-nevermind that lebanon is doing the same thing we are accusing the israeli's of doing.

Funny, I don't see Lebanon shelling and bulldozing Palestinian homes to build "Lebanese only" settlements or holding a military occupation over them.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 05-01-2002).]

#13

2002-05-01, 23:18

user X

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
Originally posted by Viper2002:

Ask yourself why israel is burying palestinion bodies when this violates international sanctions?

They were starting to smell.

How whould you feel if a foreign country refused to give you your dead family?

Thankful

Why are israel bombing goverment building if they are targeting suicide bombers?

2 for 1 sale on tragets.

if these are the bodies of suicide bombers why not give them back?

Too much work sweeping them up. I think they just hose 'em off into the gutter.

What is there they dont want you to find out?

The holy grail.

Why has israel tried as hard as possible to label its murderous acts as a war on terrorism?

All governments with a GDP above $100.00 commit murderous acts.

If the murders are legitimet why does israel feel the need to try and pass its self of as another country protecting itself?

It first tried passing itself off as a tranny lounge singer in Vegas. The cruel reviews it recieved gave it a sense of martyrdom.

Why has the entire police force been wiped out in attacks by israel?

Their pensions were being held in jewish investment accounts. And the fact that they were carrying guns.

Why are they refusing to cooperate with an international investigation into there activities in palestine?

They're arrogant and therefore don't feel obligated.

Why are only israeli reporters allowed anywhere near the areas of fighting?

Spin.

Why is israel using smoke bombs to stop cameras recprding what is happening?

Actually, that smoke is coming from a third front opened up by Rastas.

Why has the israeli army threatened any actually shot dead reporters in palestine?

Good question. Seems like a waste of time to threaten anyone that was actually shot dead.

Why was it necessary for businesses to be completely raided?

Loot

Why were people belongings taken?

Loot

Why were civilian houses destroyed?

Uncle Shlomoe is a builder and he needs the work.

Why did the israeli army try to brake into the safes of the banks in palestine?

Loot

Why were legitimate businesses crushed purpously?

They were gaining market share.

Open your eyes and support the cause.

--Viper--

You can have both sides of this one. If I'm going to join a turf war - it'll be in Palm Beach.

#14

2002-05-01, 23:22

malaria

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
Originally posted by user X:

#15

2002-05-01, 23:29

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

"So, while the Arabs were fighting amongst themselves and others, the Jews continued to
stream into Palestine. They had organized themselves into a formidable group. This
coordinated effort led to many advancements in Palestine. The Jews brought new farming
technologies, developed welfare services, opened up schools, hospitals and synagogues,
and� they still continued to purchase land at a furious pace."

that's my favorite paragraph of the whole article.

how the jews become a nation-purchase land from the owner of said land, and develop it to it's full potential.

how the palestinians plan to become a nation-blowing up people who purchased land from their very own dictatorial and restrictive regimes.

as i said the land wasn't palestinians either at any time.

It turns out that Israel�s neighbors (Egypt, Jordan and Syria) were mobilizing themselves against Israel. Launching a pre-emptive strike against the Arab troops on their borders.

this is supposed to make israel look bad? that in the face of aggression they made the first step?

"Israel increases its territory big time."

4 miles, but i guess when you only 8 miles wide, a 50% increase can seem rather large.

"This is where you will hear the
phrase �land-for-peace�. You see�the Arabs are willing to recognize the right of Israel
to exist if they return the lands they got during the 1967 war."

this is an interesting one as well, you give us back the refugee lands you took from us in our attempt to take your land from you,

and we'll recognize your right to exist.

i've got a fascinating new concept.

how peace for land?

instead of israel giving up land to get peace,

how about israel get peace and then give up the land.

i don't get my paycheck prior to performing the work, neither should they.

how about if palestinians do what the israelis and americans did, and develop an economic and political system, instead of continually suicide bombing in protest of an occupation that since 1993 and prior to 3 weeks ago didn't even exist.

"The Sinai peninsula was returned to Egypt in 1979, but the other three territories are still
under Israeli control. Let�s take the Gaza Strip for example. This tract of land is a bit
larger than the cities of Santa Monica and Venice combined. It is the home of more than
one million Palestinians, nearly a third of them live in refugee camps run by the UN.
Compare that to the 7000 Jewish settlers that live there. Israel controls almost 40% of the
Gaza Strip, which includes the settlements, all of the major roads and its borders.
Then there is the largest territory, the West Bank. Numerous Jewish settlements have
been built here, 60% is directly controlled by the Israelis. 25% is secured by the Israelis
but is civilly administered by the Palestinians. The remaining 15% is run by the
Palestinian Authority. Israel has continuously and systematically built settlements in both
the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

let's look at this more closely as well, this is land the israeli's wouldn't have had anyway if the arab nations would have left them alone in 1967,

so instead of gaza strip being a refugee camp under egyptian rule as it was from 1947 to 1967, it's under israeli.

instead of the west bank being refugee camps for syria and jordan which they were from 1947 to 1967, they are now refugee camps for israel.

golan heights whose border where lebanon starts and israel begins, has refugee camps for palestinians in both countries.

one since 1967, the other since 1947.

and an arab homeland?

isn't mecca and medina in saudi arabia the holiest cities of that religion?

isn't saudi arabia the arab homeland?

which is how many times as big as israel?

"Negotiations have been held, agreements have been
reached, treaties have been signed, but somehow, at some point, someone throws a rock.
Then a shot is fired, then a Molotov cocktail is thrown, then a grenade is launched, then a
suicide bomber explodes, then the tanks are called in. People die, blood is spilt, hostilities
are raised. Once the anger calms down, both sides begin to talk again."

the part that says "Then somebody throws a rock..." sums it all up as the instigator in the breakdown in peace,

followed by a shot,

followed by a molotov cocktail,

followed by a grenade,

followed by an ignorant bomber,

followed by tanks,

followed by negotiations until the next rock is thrown.

#16

2002-05-01, 23:30

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
Why is israel using smoke bombs to stop cameras recprding what is happening?

Actually, that smoke is coming from a third front opened up by Rastas.

Haha!

#17

2002-05-01, 23:39

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
how about if palestinians do what the israelis and americans did, and develop an economic and political system, instead of continually suicide bombing in protest of an occupation that since 1993 and prior to 3 weeks ago didn't even exist.

They've been occupied for 35 years. The west bank and gaza is split into A, B, and C zones. The minority of it is A zones that have PA control. B zones have joint PA and IDF rule, and C (which is the majority) are IDF ruled. Palestinian autonomy and freedom of movement has been pretty much crippled. Roads are split up with endless checkpoints and roadblocks with traffic for the Palestinians.. and "Israeli only" roads where settlers can cruise around freely. A drive that should only take 30 minutes can be lengthened to over 3 hours for Palestinians. Of course, this had a devestating effect on employment and their economy.

#18

2002-05-01, 23:41

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

i saw an interview on msnbc with an 8 year old palestinian boy, who was supposed to be a suicide bomber.

he was not to tell his parents, and him and his friend both strapped with explosives and shrapnel instead of walking to school would walk to jewish settlement outside of town, knowing that the soldiers would not fire on children, it was a fool proof plan.

the one boy chickened out and went to school but couldn't talk his friend out of it, the first thing he heard when he got to school was the explosion...

that's the last thing he could say, his mother finished by saying she would rather live in occupation under israel and have her son, than to be in an independant state without him.

she continued by saying if this is such a noble and brave thing to do, why are they not sending their own children, or leading by example themselves.

an aging palestinian woman who recalls having more freedom and opportunity under israeli rule, than under arab.

her only fear since 1967, not that the arabs would shoot her or her family, but that her children would be manipulated to become suicide bombers.

the palestinian judicial system has got to be one of the best in the world as well.

while being shot to death in the streets, they are hung, dangling over the crowd of people, who pluck out their eyes and stick cigarette butts in the bullet holes.

that's fucking sick.

... so they loaded up their guns and they went to tel aviv.

golan heights that is.

west bank

gaza strip.

the sinai hillbillies.

i love to the propaganda they're spreading about the "willing hostages" at the church of nativity.

i'd be willing to with an automatic rifle at my head.

funny none of them stay when they exchange hostages for food.

aren't they the "willing" hostages?

#19

2002-05-02, 00:33

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

quote:
would walk to jewish settlement outside of town, knowing that the soldiers would not fire on children, it was a fool proof plan.

Not very foolproof at all, considering that the Israeli troops just shot the three boys who were approaching the border armed with knives and an axe recently, who were acting independently of any group.

quote:
she continued by saying if this is such a noble and brave thing to do, why are they not sending their own children, or leading by example themselves.

Even HAMAS was shocked an put out a statement speaking against any children taking part in fighting and wasting their lives after above ^^ incident.

quote:
an aging palestinian woman who recalls having more freedom and opportunity under israeli rule, than under arab.

her only fear since 1967, not that the arabs would shoot her or her family, but that her children would be manipulated to become suicide bombers.

Palestinians weren't suicide bombing since 1967.. so it would seem strange that that would be her only fear. The bombings came into play in the 90's, and by willing adult applicants.

#20

2002-05-02, 07:28

Viper2002

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

Arafat cant stop the suicide bombings.

He has no police, army, Nothing.. The only reason israel is asking him to stop Suicide bombings now is because they have destroyed his power to do so, which gives them an excuse to enter palestinian terratory and do as they wish whenever another israeli is injured in a suicide bombing.

When there is a suicide bombing that is one person carrying out an attack on there own, but when the israelis retaliate they make every palestinian suffer.

#21

2002-05-02, 11:27

Spirit of '22 Spirit of '22 is offline

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

That is very true about Arafat being unable to do anything. Everytime three Palestinians get a house with guns in it, it is hit by a rocket. Police stations and other such facilities were levelled a long time ago. There is no enforcement beyond uncontrollable marauding bands. But it looks good in tne NY Times when a suicide bomber lights himself up after Arafat said hed stop it; it justifies bulldozing another town and shooting pregnant women.

#22

2002-05-02, 16:27

Viper2002

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

When the united states and britain attacked afgainstan. Who picked up the bill?

Im not sure about the figures but I no both our countries gave millions to rebuild afganistan.

Now that the israelis seem they may have finished their destruction for the momment (Gone for a sleep they will be back soon to do some more killin). Whos gona pick up the bill to rebuild palestine?

It aint gona be those stingy fuckin jews. If anyone gives the palestinions anything it will be us Britain the US. So our economies will suffer so they can kill civilians. I still hope we give them as much money as possible so they can buy guns and kill jews.

On a seperate note - I found out today that those tanks the israelis have been causing havok with were sold to them by my goverment, I wonder if they would sell some to the palestinians. What the fuck do you think?

#23

2002-05-02, 17:20

FuckOffandDie FuckOffandDie is offline

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

I believe that nations such as Britain and the US contributed to building the settlements the Israelis bombarded and bulldozed.

[This message has been edited by FuckOffandDie (edited 05-02-2002).]

#24

2002-05-02, 17:50

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

eh, not all jewish people are to blame for the acts of the right wing Zionists in charge of the government and military who feed the masses a steady stream of propaganda and half truths, denials or falsehoods. There's quite a few jewish movements that are anti-zionist and oppose Israeli government, or even the existance of Israel.

Edit: The U.S. and Britain (but especially the U.S) gives billions of our tax dollars to Israel annually. The U.S. is strongly allied to Israel for strategic reasons. However, if anyone pays for aid to Palestinians or helping to rebuild, it will be the international community and not Israel. I'm not expecting U.S. policy to change in the mid-east any time soon. Right now Republicans are even kissing up to the Jewish vote by praising Israel (heh.. why don't they just whore themselves out? A blowjob for a vote.. geez).

The U.N. investigation was blocked by Israel. This will probably fade into the background of history as Bush gets ready to bomb Iraq. The world has forgotten Sabra and Shatila, and just about every other atrocity. I would not be surprised to see Sharon to make some dirty moves in the occupied territories if Bush strikes Iraq, since world attention will be focused off the Palestinians, just the way he likes it.

[This message has been edited by TheMouse (edited 05-02-2002).]

#25

2002-05-02, 18:25

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

Arafat can't stop suicide bombings - I think that's obvious. However, he hasn't even lifted a small finger to do anything about those problems when he had the authority to do.

Until recently, he didn't even bother condemning the suicide bombers. He never stopped the huge growing networks of suicide bombers, he never stopped the numerous schools where they train kids to kill. In fact, he never changed the Palestinian constitution (although he promissed he would) which says in several paragraphs that "the Palestinians must chase all the Jews from Isreal".

Now, one can ask, "why would he even bother helping his sworn ennmies, the Isreal"? The answer is simple; either you fight Isreal, either you make peace with Isreal. If you fight Isreal, expect similar reactions from the Isreali Government (who isn't perfect either), however, if you go forward and start negotiating for whatever piece of land you can get (which isn't THAT bad either), then I guarantee you that the Jews will go forward do and will do everything in their power to create a Palestinian state.

Viper2002,

You're an idiot. Your posts are absolutly rediculous. You publicly encourage the Palestinians to kill the Jews while at the same time expects the Jews to hold back and be nice with their ennemies.

As for the Palestinians not getting weapons, I think they have more than enough. Dozens of thousands of rifles are circulating currently in Palestine (most of which were initialy provided by Isreal). They buy whatever they can afford, and the rest is provided to them by their 'carring' Arab neighbours.

Until you get a fucking clue on what's happening, I have no intentions of replying to you.

Oh and, Governments don't sell weapons because they want to make money - they sell weapons because it's a poltical statement. The Western World has close ties with Isreal and relies on it for many reasons.

For example, when the Egyptians blocked the Suez cannal, it was the Isreali who held the offensive and liberated the cannal for the benifet of the Western World. England and France were among the countries who benifet most of it.

As long as Isreal shares it's interests with the Western World, it remains a very, very valuable ally. It's like a tower in the heart of an ennemy's castle. This is the one reason why countries like Iraq and Iran want to see Isreal go away. They don't give a fuck about land or the Palestinian refugees; Isreal represents less than 1% of the Middle East and has almost no valuable ressources (like oil), and the Palestinians were always the underdogs.

This been said, I'm no lostmind. I don't support all Isreal actions and don't think that the're the 'good guys' or that the're doing 'whats right'. The only thing I support about Isreal is their right to exist and I believe - as I already showed above - that creating the state of Isreal was a perfectly legal act - maybe unfair to some, but nontheless a legal act.

#26

2002-05-08, 20:08

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

you know what the difference is viper,

we don't believe suicide solves anything.

you want my solution so the situation,

nuke the whole goddamn area, and most of the world's problems in the last 60 years will be gone,

the average intelligence of man will damn near double,

the death of all them, jews included, can be nothing more than a good thing overall.

is that a rational solution?

hell no,

and neither is suicide bombing.

instead of sending one kid to kill a bunch of other kids dancing,

line your border with "soldiers" and keep the israeli's away.

it's not the palestinian fight i and most people disagree with,

it's the way they fight.

if they'd send a hundred soldiers into jerusalem and storm some government buildings, or target military installations in and around occupied land,

not one person would give a shit.

i'm not saying israeli's don't kill civilians,

but i'm sick to death of that rhetoric,

if you want your freedom are you willing to die for it,

you sure seem willing to kill your kids for it.

the civilian talk is bullshit,

maybe as americans we should send a suicide bomber to a club in london in retaliation for all the civilian colonists they killed from 1776 to 1783.

#27

2002-05-08, 21:50

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

What exactly is the difference between a suicide bomber killing people and soldiers killing people? There is none. It's war, and no one method is "valid" over the other when the outcome is the same.

Palestinians don't have the army and the world superpower giving them billions of dollars in miltary aid and apache helicoptors and tanks.

Contrary to your belief, they aren't sending kids to suicide bomb. Young men from the ages 18-30 enlist to do the job. It's not kids, so stop saying that they send their kids to do it.

#28

2002-05-08, 22:15

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

"What exactly is the difference between a suicide bomber killing people and soldiers killing people?"

what the hell planet are you from?

this one called earth that i occupy,

soldiers tend to want to stay alive.

#29

2002-05-08, 22:18

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

here all this time i thought college money was the incentive.

maybe the army should change it's add campaign,

an army of none,

college, schmollege, you're going to die.

#30

2002-05-08, 22:35

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

plus seeing a soldier in a uniform carrying a gun is a hint and a half for your ass.

when i get pulled over by the cops, the gun they have keeps me from throwing rocks.

when i'm dancing in a club, i shouldn't have to worry about every tomij, dikij, and harij that walks in the door.

#31

2002-05-08, 23:22

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

If your country is in a war oppressing another group of people for a piece of land, being scared dancing in a club is the price you have to pay. Sorry. While other people are fearing for their lives and hiding in basements from your precious soldiers and government's tanks, you expect to just dance in a club and experience no downside of a war whatsoever? You want to sit around safe while your army shoots people in their beds? That's a pretty sheltered world you live in. If you want to end "terrorism", you have to start rooting out the injustices and oppression that causes it. If you try to root out the "terrorists" themselves instead of dealing with the root cause, more will spring up in their place. Cure the disease instead of trying to patch over the symptoms.

Right wing Israeli's expect to be able to do whatever they want to Palestinians and drive them off their land, then cry when they get struck back. It's total self-absorbtion.

#32

2002-05-09, 01:15

user X

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

Absolutely Mouse. The blindness of arrogance.

#33

2002-05-09, 17:51

Viper2002

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

The palestinians do not have the weapons or the organisation to carry out a successfull attack on israeli military targets. Civilians are the only people they can kill and they are who they do kill.

I do think the palestinian attacks are justified, BUT stupid, they should put their guns to better use. if their are palestinians willing to die for there country. They should give them guns and create a defense army using them.

THAT WOULD PISS OFF THE ISRAELIS A HELL OF ALOT MORE THAN KILLING A FEW CIVILIANS, PLUSS THEY WOULENT BE SO QUICK TO ROLL INTO PALESTINE WHENEVER THEY FEEL LIKE IT.

#34

2002-05-09, 20:51

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

"If your country is in a war oppressing another group of people for a piece of land,"

you do live in america don't you?

i feel safe going out at night despite living in a state with 3 indian reservations.

"While other people are fearing for their lives and hiding in basements from your precious soldiers and government's tanks, you expect to just dance in a club and experience no downside of a war whatsoever? "

besides the tanks outside the church of nativity,

what palestinians were under siege?

this last attack came from gaza strip, the last incursion was in the west bank.

besides.

BOTH SIDES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LOOKING FOR PEACE.

i suppose you don't like arafat anymore now that he denounced suicide bombings and arrested 16 member of hamas.

ted koppel last night on nightline was interviewing the political "ambassador" of hamas, and asked him point blank if israel pulled out completely of the occupied territory would the suicide bombing stop.

what did he reply,

they would not stop until palestine was palestine again.

what does that mean, the genocide of israel?

koppel didn't have the balls to follow that up.

on the morning show today on fox they interviewed another palestinian spokesman who claimed sharon was committing genocide,

when the reporter threw it in his face that he was saying that sharon wanted the complete extinction of the palestinian people, he would not take it back,

nor would he back it up.

both of these in the face of what arafat had said, which proves he no longer has control of palestine and state of anarchy exists in the occupied territory,

you stated before arafat could do nothing because the israeli's decimated his police.

well the've been decimating it since according to you, and now he suddenly has the power?

"You want to sit around safe while your army shoots people in their beds?"

you must be referring to the palestinians who dressed up as israeli soldiers and stormed into a jewish house and shot the mother, her son, and 5 year old girl while she slept.

"If you want to end "terrorism", you have to start rooting out the injustices and oppression that causes it."

the point has been made the world sees it, the world wants it, it's going to happen, why should they continue to sacrifice their lives for something that is eminent? the incursions would stop if the bombings would stop.

even if you don't believe me, what the fuck is wrong with trying it for a couple of months to see where it gets you.

don't avoid this question, tell me what is wrong with stopping the suicide bombings and focusing on peace for two months, i will support the suicide bombings in retaliation of israeli aggression, but in retaliation of israel's retaliation of the last suicide bombing, which is in retaliation of israel's last retaliation of the last suicide bombing, which is in retaliation.....

redundant isn't it?

israel tried to stop the circle and were rewarded with 5 suicide bombings in 5 days.

the cycle has to stop somewhere if peace is to be achieved,

or we should all just sit back and let the chips fall where they will.

"Cure the disease instead of trying to patch over the symptoms."

good point, you could also say let it heal instead of picking at the sores.

"Right wing Israeli's expect to be able to do whatever they want to Palestinians and drive them off their land"

you stated it yourself that not all israeli's think like this,

israeli's sympathetic to the palestinian cause are losing their sympathy along with their loved ones.

fuck all israeli's for the thoughts of a few huh?

then i suppose you support the cigarettes in the gunshot wounds of the palestinians who support israel.

you see it runs both ways on both sides.

"The palestinians do not have the weapons or the organisation to carry out a successfull attack on israeli military targets. Civilians are the only people they can kill and they are who they do kill."

do you even realize how dumb that sounds viper?

"The palestinians do not have the weapons or the organisation to carry out a successfull attack on israeli military targets. Civilians are the only people they can kill and they are who they do kill."

thank heavens you redeemed yourself, i was about to write you off, but that's the first fully intelligent thing i've heard you say.

my opinion of you has changed greatly.

can't you see it's the same i'm trying to say,

except i don't think suicide is ever justifiable.

"THAT WOULD PISS OFF THE ISRAELIS A HELL OF ALOT MORE THAN KILLING A FEW CIVILIANS, PLUSS THEY WOULENT BE SO QUICK TO ROLL INTO PALESTINE WHENEVER THEY FEEL LIKE IT"

EX-FUCKING-ACTLY!!!!

borders would become clearly defined as well.

mouse why can't you accept a stance like this.

i know because you're a woman, and you can never admit when you're wrong, you've got to go til the guy gets sick of arguing.

#35

2002-05-09, 22:33

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

Umm.. Lostmind. Israel needs to evacuate the settlements, go back to it's '67 borders, call in a U.N. peacekeeping force and begin the road to creating an INDEPENDANT (read: not bantustan or dependant on Israel) state. The majority of Palestinians support that, it's supported internationally, hell that's supported everywhere but by the right wing Israelis that are as extremist as Hamas in wanting ALL of it. Israel will never see peace until they start negotiating with Palestinians as equals and obey international law. Arrest the people that suicide bomb if they want, but give the population some fucking independance from Israel's bloody colonial rule. I shouldn't have even mentioned I'm a woman because now you're going to pull that retarded "you're doing such and such because you're a woman" bullshit on me.

#36

2002-05-10, 23:02

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

"Israel needs to evacuate the settlements, go back to it's '67 borders, call in a U.N. peacekeeping force and begin the road to creating an INDEPENDANT (read: not bantustan or dependant on Israel) state."

i agree, i've always agreed that the settlements have to stop and those that exist dismantled.

but i don't think it's israel's responsibility to create or even begin the road to an independant palestinian state.

it should be a palestinian state, don't you think?

"Israel will never see peace until they start negotiating with Palestinians as equals and obey international law"

and vice versa, i don't think suicide bombing is supported in the geneva convention.

"Arrest the people that suicide bomb if they want, but give the population some fucking independance from Israel's bloody colonial rule."

first of all, it's hard to arrest dead people,

secondly those that orchestrate the suicide bombings don't have business offices, they work out of houses and apartments surrounded by civilians, many of whom probably don't even know, in an effort to hinder offensive military strikes.

i don't honestly believe israel deliberately targets civilians, or even children, remember the 14 year old boy who walked into a bunch of israeli soldiers and blew them all up.

a 14 year old boy, how did they talk him into it,

forget how, tell me why they had the little boy do it.

because the soldiers wouldn't fire on him and they knew it, despite the bullshit they try and say on television.

A 14 YEAR OLD BOY.

that's not even civilized, shit that's not even close to barbaric.

if i believed in evil, that would be as close to pure evil as one could come.

that 14 year old boy should be dry humping some chick in a bathroom stall at a club, like 14 year old israeli boys are doing when they're not looking over their shoulder, not strapping explosives to his body knowing the next steps he take will be his last.

hey is that a stick of dynamite in your pants or are you just happy to see me?

14 years old, young women suicide bombers, suicide alone is bullshit.

most freedom fighters fight for the freedom of their women and children, they don't send their women and children out to die for their freedom.

it's a logic i will never understand, it's a logic i will never condone,

i apologize if i offended you, but it is such female stance, two guys fighting over you, you're not going home with the one who wins, it's the guy on the ground beat up and bloody you run to and look at the other guy and say i suppose you think you're some big shot now, totally overlooking the fact that both were willingly involved.

and i can't believe how you could possibly support crap like suicide bombing, it baffled my mind actually, even though i don't you, i know that if you were a palestinian you sure as hell wouldn't send your children out to die, knowing they're going to die, in fact i can't believe one palestinian parent even thinks like that.

i was amazed that the un wanted to go in and see how many children the isreali's "massacred", but do absolutely nothing when palestinians send their children out to die. where's the human rights watch for shit like that?

when i hear of a bombing in israel, i am all for the lining up and killing of every palestinian,

the suicide bombers aren't the captain of the football team, they're the people in study hall who sit by themselves.

here comes somebody now that wants to meet you,

you spend your whole life as a misfit, and this person wants to meet you, right away you're intrigued.

then you find out he's a member of a militant group fighting for the freedom of palestine and wants you to join, finally a part of something, something most people find important and you were asked to join.

they butter you up treat you all good, so you will do anything they ask.

and they ask,

they want you to become a national hero,

after all these years of nothing, i will be somebody the whole nation adores, they will have a parade in my honor, they will shout my name, i will be with allah immediately,

the only i have to do is destroy my worthless little life that nobody cared about anyway which made me easily manipulated.

it pissed me off when people would do that shit to those types of kids at school, make them feel good to get a good laugh at their expense.

as for the parades, they're just propaganda to convince the world of what terrible conditions we live in that our young people are driven to such desperate acts in the hands of our oppressors.

it sickens me, it sickens me that people support people who do this.

just admit it, suicide bombing is bullshit.

peace doesn't benefit terrorist organizations, and they are the ones to blame, not the israeli's, not the palestinians.

hamas, islamic jihad, al aqsa, al queada

what happens to these people when their agenda's are achieved?

the money stops coming in. the billions of dollars contributed by people who sympathize will no longer be there. what are they going to do?

the same thing we do in america, they will stand in the way of peace.

the same way politicians and million dollar drug dealers don't want to see marijuana legalized in america.

for the politicians it's an easy platform to run on, and the harder you are the more willing the people are to raised taxes, random highway searches, for the drug dealers, they don't want to pump gas, they don't want to turn away their million dollar incomes.

the same for terrorist organizations, their income ceases when the shooting does.

and the little people who get caught in the middle of both, they're forgotten the next day, their death or their life sentence doesn't mean anything to the masses.

just a number at the end of the year in a statistic used to reflect both sides of the argument.

#37

2002-05-10, 23:04

lostmind

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

need to lay off the crank.

#38

2002-05-11, 14:48

TheMouse

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

Umm.. yes you do need to lay off the crank.

quote:
but i don't think it's israel's responsibility to create or even begin the road to an independant palestinian state.

it should be a palestinian state, don't you think?

But Israel is the one that has total power over the territory. Israel pretty much wants the PLO to be another arm of the Israeli government to "keep the rabble in control" while Israel continues to build settlements and confiscate land. That's what Oslo was basically about.

quote:
and vice versa, i don't think suicide bombing is supported in the geneva convention.

No, it is not. However, there is no state of Palestine to sign the International treaty. However, armed resistance against an occupier by the occupied IS supported by the Geneva Fourth. Building settlements across the land is ILLEGAL, along with confiscating property, land and water.

quote:
i don't honestly believe israel deliberately targets civilians, or even children

It's been documented by all human rights organizations, including the Israeli human rights center, and our own state department that Israel overwhelmingly uses "excessive force". They shoot children who are throwing rocks. Armed soldiers in tanks, shooting children for throwing a rock. They shell down entire civilian neighborhoods (have been doing this for a long time.. I'm not talking about Jenin). The many checkpoints Palestinians have to cross by have been well known as areas of physical abuse and harassment. They shot a man in the ankle and let him bleed on the ground until some nearby Palestinians finally called an ambulance. Israeli settler gangs commonly riot and vandalize property/kill people.

Just the other day.. settler gangs caught planting a bomb near a hospital and all girl's school..

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=162386&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

quote:
most freedom fighters fight for the freedom of their women and children, they don't send their women and children out to die for their freedom.

Did you read my past posts? Suicide bombers enlist at the age of ~18-30. There was only one female bomber, and she wanted to do it. She was even turned down by most of the militant groups until Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took her. When the 3 boys tried to head out with knives and got shot by the IDF, Hamas made a public announcement for children to not risk their lives.

quote:
i apologize if i offended you, but it is such female stance, two guys fighting over you, you're not going home with the one who wins, it's the guy on the ground beat up and bloody you run to and look at the other guy and say i suppose you think you're some big shot now, totally overlooking the fact that both were willingly involved.

Huh?

quote:
and i can't believe how you could possibly support crap like suicide bombing, it baffled my mind actually, even though i don't you, i know that if you were a palestinian you sure as hell wouldn't send your children out to die, knowing they're going to die, in fact i can't believe one palestinian parent even thinks like that.

Palestinian parents DON'T send their children out to die. The militant groups won't even take people under the age of 18. They won't even take people who are sole breadwinners for their family. People willingly enlist to do this. I'm not supporting bombing civilians as much as I'm explaining what Israel needs to do. I also think that Israel has commited crimes that go far beyond any suicide bomb. One side kills thousands with missiles and machine guns and the other kills hundreds with homemade bombs.

quote:
i was amazed that the un wanted to go in and see how many children the isreali's "massacred", but do absolutely nothing when palestinians send their children out to die. where's the human rights watch for shit like that?

Because Palestinians don't send their children out to die. First off, when a suicide bomb goes off, we KNOW how many people died, we KNOW who did it, we KNOW what's going on.. there's no mystery whatsoever.

After the Jenin attack, we had NO clue how many died, what the situation was, and recieved tons of conflicting reports. People didn't know what happened! That's why they should have sent a team.. to get some facts. Journalists and aid workers got harrassed and shot at by the IDF and there were numerous reports of them blocking food and humanitarian aid.

quote:
when i hear of a bombing in israel, i am all for the lining up and killing of every palestinian

I rest my case...

quote:
the suicide bombers aren't the captain of the football team, they're the people in study hall who sit by themselves.

here comes somebody now that wants to meet you,

you spend your whole life as a misfit, and this person wants to meet you, right away you're intrigued.

then you find out he's a member of a militant group fighting for the freedom of palestine and wants you to join, finally a part of something, something most people find important and you were asked to join.

they butter you up treat you all good, so you will do anything they ask.

and they ask,

they want you to become a national hero

Actually, suicide bombers are often young adult men (18-30) who grew up seeing their fathers and brothers jailed, beaten and killed. They've known nothing their entire life but the war and occupation. That's how it is for most Palestinians in the occupied territories. They have a horrible living condition, zero rights, and have no hope for the future.

quote:
as for the parades, they're just propaganda to convince the world of what terrible conditions we live in that our young people are driven to such desperate acts in the hands of our oppressors.

Haha.. there you go. Stuff your head in the sand.

quote:
peace doesn't benefit terrorist organizations, and they are the ones to blame, not the israeli's, not the palestinians.

hamas, islamic jihad, al aqsa, al queada

what happens to these people when their agenda's are achieved?

the money stops coming in. the billions of dollars contributed by people who sympathize will no longer be there. what are they going to do?

the same thing we do in america, they will stand in the way of peace.

Perhaps like peace doesn't benifit the far right in Israeli who recieve billions and billions of U.S. tax dollars and military aid to advance their settlements and military occupation? Peace doesn't benifit our politicians who recieve tens of thousands of dollars from AIPAC to funnel U.S. money to Israel, which in turn is used to advance Sharon's colonial war?

Rabin (an Israel Prime Minister) was murdered in 1995 by a far right Israeli for dealing with the Palestinians. You think the Israel far right wants peace?

#39

2002-05-11, 16:32

Viper2002

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

The future for palesine seems very bad for all of us. The recent attacks from the israelis and the backing given to them from the west will have left a large number of palestinians with a growing disslike for the western wourld. Because there is no palestinian police or army to control these peolpe. We could all be facing terrorist attacks from palestine within a small amount of time.

If anything the recent attacks on palestine to destroy terrorism living there will have increased the amount of people looking to become soldiers for the palestinian cause.

Soon we may be sending our own troops into palestine.

#40

2002-05-11, 23:26

Regular

Re: Concerning Palestine

So stil no reply for me?

Pity.