i saw on the news the other night on fox, a guy who just wrote a book called resource wars.

in which he sums up why terrorist organizations target america, and use religion as they're calling card.

according to him it started after WWII when the middle east was being given sovereignty.

the king of saudi arabia had a secret meeting with fdr(roosevelt), behind closed doors just the two of them,

the actual conversation unknown, the beef of the conversation,

if america will ensure and protect the power of the royal family in saudi arabia with a military presence in exchange for a sweet deal on oil;

could this be the reason the united states has the lowest price per gallon of gas than any other nation in the world.

could this also be the reason the saudi's, the holy land in the muslim world, are trying to forge a peace treaty in the middle ease, as another side deal, remember when cheney did his 11 country march, a week later the saudi's proposed a peace plan identical to the one clinton tried that israel agreed to and arafat refused.

the king of saudi arabia, quite possibly knowing the unrest that sovereignty would give the arabs, despite the fact that some people claim america to be warmonger for being involved in a conflict every 10 years,

here's a region that has never known peace since it was ruled by others,

even in the presence of a common enemy, israel, they still can't get along with each other, one power struggle after another to be the big kid on the block.

russia knew the key to the world was the middle east oil supply, which is why they allied themselves with every arab nation, who they eventually would've taken over had we not stopped them in afghanistan.

saudi arabia knowing full well no government in the middle east would stand up to the united states directly, the assurance of their political power in the region was all that mattered.

hussein, it is well known, had plans of taking over the whole middle east and thus ruling the world.

since then, the united states, by doing something every arab nation wanted us to do, liberate kuwait and defend saudi arabia,

terrorist attacks on the united states increase,

all of a sudden we are infidels in the holy land,

our alliance with israel has become a thorn in our side,

we are strongly urged to pull out of the middle east.

the last one being the key to the whole thing and lost in all the other propaganda as the driving force behind anti-america sentiment

could the reason be that a select few from hussein, to the ayatollah, to usama bin laden himself want the us out of saudi arabia, so that it can easily be taken over by an aggressive force with it's own agenda,

immediately bringing the world to it's knees, you want oil, your women must wear burkhas kind of deals.

russia has started mass drilling of oil lately, 366 million barrels a day, but still importing an unusually high amount for daily consumption,

why are they stockpiling?

do they see what i see, the liberal opinion of us staying out of their business will win,

america will pull out of saudi arabia, and one night, iraq, iran, or previously, like i believe bin laden had in mind, a taliban like authority would take over saudi arabia,

in a global economy one country can't stay out of another's business, becuase eventually it will become everybody's business.

could this also be the reason why the conservatives are pushing hard for the drilling of alaska, in addition to the research on alternative fuel sources with liberals?

as is well known america has been stockpiling it's oil since the end of WWII knowing full well the unstability of opec, while russia just planned on taking them over.

thoughts anybody,

it was wierd when the guy was talking about the book it was like finding the key piece to a jig-saw puzzle, everything that has happened and everything that is happening all made perfect sense, and random acts of terror began looking like strategic military operations,

in the same way i think japan fucked up by hitting pearl harbor,

bin laden fucked up taking out the world trade center,

i honestly believe that if the wtc had been left out and just the pentagon and other military or government building targeted,

america would have a vietnam like atmosphere, instead of the wwII mentality.

and that within a year, our military presence in the middle east would've dwindled to nothing by sheer public pressure, in a society that was already overly sympathetic to the palestinians,

since it was a civilian building though that seemed to be the focus of the attack, we pretty much just said fuck you, and polls that show america's opinions of the israeli-palestinians conflict have shifted as well,

if this was 1993, i doubt that palestine would be granted a seat on the united nations.

just my thoughts, although i know some of you will disagree based on the simple fact that it doesn't make america look like the bad guy,

or that this may be true, just that the cia has the wholething masterminded playing governments and peole like docile sheep that are easily led from home to the slaughter house.

Well, for most of the part, you (and the author of the book) are right. Except that I don't know why you stated that this doesn't make America look like the 'bad guy' when you openly addmited that America was bribed into killing people and interfering directly in the Middle East.

Couple of more points i'd like to precise though:

quote:

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could this be the reason the united states has the lowest price per gallon of gas than any other nation in the world.

---

Don't forget the sweet deal that Kuwait has offered to the Americans after the Gulf War. Although the main reason for USA to have the lowest price is the the fact that they have the lowest taxes.

quote:

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even in the presence of a common enemy, israel, they still can't get along with each other, one power struggle after another to be the big kid on the block.

---

Well, they were united during many wars against Isreal.

But one main reason to why the're stil fighting - aside couple of minor difference in religion - is because Cold War had much effect on Middle East; Soviets manipulated one side, the Yanks manipulated the other side.

quote:

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we are strongly urged to pull out of the middle east.

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You do realise that the fact that you pulled IN the Middle East might piss of some people, such as mr. Laden himself?

quote:

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could the reason be that a select few from hussein, to the ayatollah, to usama bin laden himself want the us out of saudi arabia, so that it can easily be taken over by an aggressive force with it's own agenda

---

Bin Laden is not that stupid not to realise that he'll be ass-raped by the USA the first day he takes over those oil-fields. You think the Western World would sit quietly while someone takes over one of their main sources of income? Haha!

Nah, there's no way he can attempt to do anything of that kind. No, not because he doesn't have the guts to do - we all know far he can go, but because he knows that such attempt is futile.

"Bin Laden is not that stupid not to realise that he'll be ass-raped by the USA the first day he takes over those oil-fields. You think the Western World would sit quietly while someone takes over one of their main sources of income? Haha! "

too young to remember the kuwaiti invasion by iraq,

he expected the western world to sit idly by.

"But one main reason to why the're stil fighting - aside couple of minor difference in religion - is because Cold War had much effect on Middle East; Soviets manipulated one side, the Yanks manipulated the other side"

can you tell me what's wrong with that?

you are trying to influence my thought,

you are interfering in my lifestyle, you are "manipulating" me.

"You do realise that the fact that you pulled IN the Middle East might piss of some people, such as mr. Laden himself? "


you do realize that we were ASKED to go their, by a ruling government,

who was willing to pay for it.

if a neighbor asked you to watch help him keep on his house because he has reason to fear vandals, and is willing to give you so much a week for it,

would you say,

no, i don't want to get involved in your affairs.

THAT'S WHAT FUCKING ALLIES ARE GODDAMNIT.

"Except that I don't know why you stated that this doesn't make America look like the 'bad guy' when you openly addmited that America was bribed into killing people and interfering directly in the Middle Eas"

sources, and not the wag the dog clinton incidents either,

i didn't support them, and feel they really hurt opinions of us over there.

tell me how protection of a sovereign nation(s) is "interfering";

and you don't think osama wants the ruling family of saudi arabia ousted,

where does he recruit most of his people?
where is his homeland?
who exiled him?
where are the holiest sites in his religion that he can no longer visit?

one answer for all four,

Saudi Arabia.

saudi terrorists serve a double purpose,

one is destroying american interests, the second putting strains on american and saudi relations,

come on hp, haven't you heard enough from the other people here,

your views should remain in the attack the united states section,

just don't pollute this good forum with your other teenangster wannabe's like acid trooper.

could it be that nobody replied to this but you is because,

and why can't you admit,

that the reasoning is sound and fits current events, with no missing pieces,

quite thorough that there's really nothing to add unless you disagree,

how many people said that cia bin laden thing was crap,

except for that one teenangster, who was like "alright dude, more shit against the usa on the internet"

quote:

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too young to remember the kuwaiti invasion by iraq,

he expected the western world to sit idly by.

---

Unfortunatly, unlike you, I can't read Saddam's thoughts and tell you what exactly he was thinking when he invaded Kuwait. But I do know that anyone with enough brain would realise that by fucking with the oil fields, he's fucking with the entire world.

quote:

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you are trying to influence my thought,

you are interfering in my lifestyle, you are "manipulating" me.

---

The Soviets and the Americans did a bit more then 'influance' their thoughts and interfer with their life style. It was massive sale of fire warms worth billions of dollars, it was political pressure, it was everything.

quote:

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if a neighbor asked you to watch help him keep on his house because he has reason to fear vandals, and is willing to give you so much a week for it,

would you say,

no, i don't want to get involved in your affairs.

---

Maybe I would accept such trade off, maybe I wouldn't. But if I did accept the deal, I would also have to accept all the consequances that follow this deal.

In the American-Kuwait case, it was followed by a seriers of terrorist attacks of several groups, such as the Al-Quida.

Or, in another words, Bin Laden can come up to you and say, "Saddam has asked me to blow the WTC towers for him and offered to pay me good money. What, you'd expect me to say, 'no' to him? THAT'S WHAT FUCKING ALLIES ARE GODDAMNIT".

quote:

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sources,

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Uhhh.. wasn't this what your whole topic was about? "America got paid by the Saudis to protect the royal family and that's what America is doing". I'm using your own sources.

quote:

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tell me how protection of a sovereign nation(s) is "interfering";

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I'll let you figure this one by yourself. I'm to lazy to answer every stupid question.

quote:

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your views should remain in the attack the united states section

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I thought you were the one who posted this topic. In fact, you even told me to reply to it.

quote:

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could it be that nobody replied to this but you is because

---

You care too much about what other people. I don't know why they haven't replied, and frankly, I don't care.

"Unfortunatly, unlike you, I can't read Saddam's thoughts and tell you what exactly he was thinking when he invaded Kuwait. But I do know that anyone with enough brain would realise that by fucking with the oil fields, he's fucking with the entire world."

there you go again giving to much credit to people,

people are generally stupid.

don't believe me,

watch the news.

"The Soviets and the Americans did a bit more then 'influance' their thoughts and interfer with their life style. It was massive sale of fire warms worth billions of dollars, it was political pressure, it was everything."

it was the usa allowing the arab nations to protect themselves, it was russia getting buddy, buddy with arabs, so that one day a military commander could take over in the capital,

you think the usa is bad, communist russia would've had no problem killing people who opposing them,

their theory was if you aren't a benefit to society, you are a burden, and the difference is meaningless whether you are dead or alive,

and we're talking about a time to when most european nations were still picking up the pieces from WWII, the only nations that could've possibly opposed a russian advance into the middle east was great britain, instead who did it, the united states in afghanistan,

whose people loved us for it, but wish we'd've stayed, so we wouldn't have had to come again.

"Maybe I would accept such trade off, maybe I wouldn't. But if I did accept the deal, I would also have to accept all the consequances that follow this deal"

how true, and able to respond to that however you feel.

with the bin laden thing i think you are starting to catch on, but there's not just one consequence, now there's his consequence for that action,

then there's our consequence for what we do,

for every decision you make there will be a consequence.

"Uhhh.. wasn't this what your whole topic was about? "America got paid by the Saudis to protect the royal family and that's what America is doing". I'm using your own sources"

so you are using my sources to justify your opinions as fact?

that doesn't tell me how the united states is the bad guy in this,

for protecting a nation who asked for it, we're evil huh?

quote:
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tell me how protection of a sovereign nation(s) is "interfering";
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll let you figure this one by yourself. I'm to lazy to answer every stupid question,

or you don't have an answer,

interference would be the saudi's telling fdr we can do it ourselves alright,

not the saudi's saying hey could you give us a hand.

"You care too much about what other people. I don't know why they haven't replied, and frankly, I don't care. "

i could give a shit less about other people, but trends i can catch on to,

do you see the number of posts of i have,

a topic dies when nobody can argue it, or it's not worth responding to,

take a look at the people in this section and how they react to you,

they stay out of attack the united states forum, because it's filled with people like you,

acid trooper and prince marchment,

i think it's the reason we don't have the bad ideas forum anymore, because it was filled with 12 year olds looking for credit card and vending machine scams.

one thing you do hp is just look at every incident for what that incident is,

irregardless of the history behind the incident,

you don't judge a book by it's cover,

well no event should be taken at face value,

you can justify wtc because of american involvement in the middle east,

and that's where you stop, you don't look into specific reasons why we are there, or how we got there,

nor do you look for the reasoning behind their rulers wanting us there,

what you see as a power hungry nation greedy for oil putting it's nose where it doesn't belong,

i see a powerful nation with the ability to protect the interests of weaker nations, and the power to manipulate those interests to our favor, in return they retain they sovereignty.

you've been brainwashed by the same people who want to take them over,

when are people going to realize that without united states and every now and then european intervention, none of those nations would have their own governments, and the ability to mold the society how they see fit.

they would be as they've always been, taken over by one conqueror after another.

you think saddam hussein could live in peace with every other nation?

he sure didn't give a shit about the kuwaitis, whose women were raped and men killed, although they're arab just like iraq.

neither iraq or iran could get along, although both being arab nations, one wanted the other to rule the land and destroy the people.

lebanon won't even palestinian arabs into their country, despite lebanon being arab and both with the same religious belief.

i believe they are like because it's all they've ever known, and not from the united states either,

you could put that down to the roman empire, spanish conquistadors, the french empire, and the british empire.

Lostmind and HP, after reading through this there are several points i'd like to mention to you both.

1) US-Israeli relationships were very strained during the israeli six day war. The israelis were killing eygyptian POWs and the USS liberty was about 6 miles off shore.

Can't remember the whole story, but the israelis attacked the Liberty for about 30 minutes, blocking their radio calls for help and killing about 20 men. They never accepted responsibility for the attack.

2) lostmind, the Russians are stockpiling for a simpe, reason, they want to sell the oil. With rising prices due to the middle east crisis, Putin has offered the British government (and some others) cheaper oil. I can't remember the ins and outs but if i find it, i'll post it here. They will sell us the oil real cheap and make a lose, but at the moment Putin has detailed that he is more worried about the US and european economies (which do affect russia) than makeing a quick buck on the oil.

Mantis

Plus another thing lost, thats the same reason i left attack on america forum, too many indocterinated kiddys.

They don't seem to understand that their precious little anarchy beliefs and anti-establishment ideas wouldn't be possible if america as we know it wasn't around.

If america fell from power, see how long they would last after the other want to be superpowers have carved up the great power. See how many of them get to listen to limp bizkit when the chinese take over, or the arabs.

I don't think people understand how much the american state is protecting them and millions of other innocents around the world.

I personally go to attack on america forum now just to show those idiots exactly how much of an idiot they really are. Anyone fancy giving me a hand.

Me against the world

quote:

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people are generally stupid.

don't believe me,

watch the news.

---

Well, if the people are generally stupid, what makes you think that they give us credible information?

quote:

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it was the usa allowing the arab nations to protect themselves, it was russia getting buddy, buddy with arabs, so that one day a military commander could take over in the capital,

---

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

See, that's what im talking about, this is your prospective: the USA was allowing arab nations to protect themselves, but the Soviets - who issues just as much arms - were apperantly trying to take over them.

Learn your history, lostmind. I already told you this once, and I shall say it once again - learn your fucking history.

quote:

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for every decision you make there will be a consequence.

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Exactly! Therefore, the USA Government should be direct responsible for bringing the 9/11 attacks on themselves.

quote:

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that doesn't tell me how the united states is the bad guy in this,

for protecting a nation who asked for it, we're evil huh?

---

It's called a 'bribe'. It's as if I gave you money to overlook my crimes, but to punish my neighbour for everything that he does to me.

quote:

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interference would be the saudi's telling fdr we can do it ourselves alright,

not the saudi's saying hey could you give us a hand.

---

Not quite. Keep thinking. LOL

quote:

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you can justify wtc because of american involvement in the middle east,

and that's where you stop, you don't look into specific reasons why we are there, or how we got there,

nor do you look for the reasoning behind their rulers wanting us there, what you see as a power hungry nation greedy for oil putting it's nose where it doesn't belong,

i see a powerful nation with the ability to protect the interests of weaker nations, and the power to manipulate those interests to our favor, in return they retain they sovereignty.

---

I'll tell you a story.

Muhammad and Abdul lived next to each other for years. Sure, they had their own missunderstandings and their own disputes, but everything that ever happened was always solved by themselves. Then, Muhammad thought of asking Jack - who was the strongest kid on the block - to help him if anything ever happened him; in exchange for such service, he's willing to pay good money. Naturaly, Jack accepted such position.

Suddenly, another conflict occured among the two neighbours; only this time, rather then solving this conflict by themselves, Jack interfered into the mess and istead of instoring justice - like he claims to do - he clearly favoured Muhammad on this situation because Muhammad was his ally.

Since a third man interfered into this problem, the conflict took another turn. Abdul got pissed not only at Muhammad for calling for help, but also at Jack for having no business in such affairs, and yet interfering with his own shitty perspective.

Obviously, Abdul didn't want to be left with no allies so he teamed up with a new guy, named Nikolai Ivanovich.

So, when another conflict occured, Jack rushed to help Muhammad, while Nikolai Ivanovich rushed to help Abdul. This turned into a vicious cycle and each side with it's respective ally, would always team up against the other side.

Now, the moral of the story is not to look at who's right and who's wrong, because we all know that finding the guilty party is a hard - and often a useless - task. The moral of the story is to understand that each side acted so it could defend it's own interest.

So there ya go, lostmind, here's your 'reasoning behind the rulers that wanted you to go there'. The theories that the Soviets wanted to take control of the Middle East are no more credible then the theories that the Yanks want to take over the world.

The rest of your post is just plain bullshit on which I won't even bother commenting. If you believe that im brainwashed, you might as well check your brain too. Because stating that "without united states and every now and then european intervention, none of those nations would have their own governments, and the ability to mold the society how they see fit." is perhaps the biggest load of bullshit I heard.

Funny. Those same countries who claimed to care about souvereign nations so much kept their colonies until the 60s and even today experience lots of interior disputes because of sovereignity.

Lostmind, you're an idiot.

"Well, if the people are generally stupid, what makes you think that they give us credible information?"

i don't i make my opinions based on all of the information i have.

"See, that's what im talking about, this is your prospective: the USA was allowing arab nations to protect themselves, but the Soviets - who issues just as much arms - were apperantly trying to take over them.

Learn your history, lostmind. I already told you this once, and I shall say it once again - learn your fucking history."

are you saying i'm wrong and russia DIDN'T INVADE AFGHANISTAN,

who they supplied with weapons up until the point of invasion, when the cia had to infiltrate afghanistan with reserves for muja-hadeen(sp)

you need to learn your history,

the soviet union, controlled all of eastern europe, had a major influence in asia, including the downfall of the last emperor in china to be replaced by communism, i think there was even a movie about that wasn't there?

we didn't stop their intrusion into eastern europe, it was a trade-off i guess that britain france and spain were not concerned with the freedoms of the people in eastern europe,

what makes you think they'd have stopped with afghanistan?

here's a lesson you'll learn in life, that the majority of the people who will steal from you, are those you know and are friends with, because they know what you have.

ever had cd's stolen, i bet it was somebody you know.

"Exactly! Therefore, the USA Government should be direct responsible for bringing the 9/11 attacks on themselves"

you should be fucking shot for that,

like the ex-cia agent said who led the afghanistan operation against the soviet union,

we knew abdul thomas jefferson wasn't going to come in and take over, we just didn't expect this.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN 2,830 PEOPLE FROM 80 NATIONS DESERVED TO FUCKING DIE BECAUSE TWICE NOW WE CAME TO THE AID OF THE AFGHANISTAN PEOPLE.

you are not even worth my fucking time after that ignorant post.

and your fucking last analogy is wrong as well,

the united states supported iraq in the iran iraq war, because of the ayotollah,

we've come to the aid of EVERY FUCKING ARAB NATION IN THAT AREA AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER,

that area has never settled their disputes because they've never had their own FUCKING soveignty.

how about you bone up on a little history.

you fuck.

i hope the next terrorist attack on the united states involves the death of your mother,

then tell me how your mothers death was justified because of american actions.

you're a pathetic little teenangster,

tell me how old you are, really.

16, 17,

8?

quote:

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are you saying i'm wrong and russia DIDN'T INVADE AFGHANISTAN,

---

The invasion of Afghanistan was NOT an offensive strategy. It was merely a way of supporting the local Government - who was pro Soviet - that was just overthrown by muslim extremists.

According to your very own logic that you stated earlier, the Soviets had every reason to attack Afghanistan. Remember? "you do realize that we were ASKED to go their, by a ruling government,"

The invasion of Afghanistan had absolutly nothing to do with world domination, or trying to get to the rich oil fields, as you claim to. Had the Soviets really wanted to conquer Afghanistan, they would have done so. Don't think that some guerilla - backed with American weapons - can stop one of the most powerful armies in the world. USSR has enough fire power to blow up this whole planet, let alone gaining control over Afghanistan.

The reason they pulled out is because a) they had nothing more to gain from that war b) new reform by Gorbachev. It had absolutly nothing to do with 'Americans stoped Russians from conquering the world'. LOL, that's just pathetic theories they feed you dumb Yanks at school so you'll shed a tear when your national flag is lifted, but wont shed a tear when billions of your dollars are going to the military.

Funny. Now that Russia isn't so much of a threat anymore, and has cut it's military funding significantly over the past 10 years, why is USA stil increasing it's own military spending? Because now it's the Chinese who are trying to take over the world? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Face it, the only nation who'll take over the world will be USA itself, hence the attempt to build a 'free trade' zone all over the world.

quote:

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we've come to the aid of EVERY FUCKING ARAB NATION IN THAT AREA AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER

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You mean when you're interest are at stake? Yes, that's exactly what I was saying earlier. Has nothing to do with being 'good' or trying to 'give the countries their own sovereignity' - it's all a question of interest, baby!

quote:

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THAT DOES NOT MEAN 2,830 PEOPLE FROM 80 NATIONS DESERVED TO FUCKING DIE

---

Hey, i'm just using your own logic here.

then there's our consequence for what we do, for every decision you make there will be a consequence.

quote:

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tell me how old you are, really.

---

I'm 86 years old. And since you attach so much importance to age, I believe this gives me the right to tell you, SHUT THE FUCK UP WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

what's that in dog years.

nobody else, hmm,

probably never will be either.

0wned.

>>>Well, they were united during many wars against Isreal.

But one main reason to why the're stil fighting - aside couple of minor difference in religion - is because Cold War had much effect on Middle East; Soviets manipulated one side, the Yanks manipulated the other side.<<<<<


Holy shit. Is there a single problem outside the White world that the people who suffer from it are remotely responsible for hp?

Arabs slaughtered each other regularly. An Arab people is a cultural myth our israeli 5th column media perpetuates so we can lump all the enemies of Israel into one convenient category. No Arabs in the Arab world, until perhaps very recently, think of themselves as Arabs. Lebanese slaughtered Palestinian refugees too. Iraq electricuted a marsh Irani soldiers were marching in, and used the bodies to build bridges for the Iraqi tanks. This is not something that suddenly happens when one communist supplies one side, and a capitalist the other. It is the result of centuries of bad blood.
Why are Arabs looked at like they are supposed to be united, when they have just as many differences amongst themselves as Europeans do, who routinely warred against eachother?

hp, there is a reason you have united everyone against you. All you do is spit out the same tired PC ivory tower overpaid college professor garbage man.

** applauds **

i wish i could've said it like that.

Of course they have their own conflicts and their own scores to settle! Differences in religion, territorial desputes; there's always reasons for which one fights with the other. But the major conflicts, such as the Iran-Iraq war - which was the deadliest conflicts in the middle east of the 20th century - has been orchestrated by both the Capitalists and the Communists.

The weapons, which made the killings more efficient; the money, which funded armies and revolutions; the political support, which helped a country to hide it's own crimes and throw the blame on the neighbour. It was all made possible thanks to the foreign 'investements'.

I'm not saying that the White Man is responsible for everything that happened in the Middle East (and I have repeated this statement several times). I realise that the main person to blaim is he who commits the crimes, but we added fuel to the fire in many many conflicts, and that's the point I tried to get across.