I saw somebody post something that basically said how young children have the capacity to hold two (or more) opposing ideas in their head at once without problem - and don't lose this ability until indoctrination and schooling teach them to rely on the left side of their brain - basically making them translate ideas into logical pieces.

I am wondering if it we aren't actually distorting ideas by breaking them down into logic... possibly even believing they are no longer valid afterwords - as logic is only a form of communication and generalisation... isn't it?

No, logic is a process for valuing, determining, and discovering ideas.

What that probably means is you can believe to contradictary things if you're ignorant of the fact that they're contradictory.

i dont know why u would want to have contradictory idias in ur head. It would only mess u up.
its like saying: i dont belive in ghosts, but they are in my room


*hides under bed scared shitless*

not necessarily venefrigus... maybe a right sided view on the idea realises that it doesn't matter if they are contradictory.

...it might be hard to understand because you have been brainwashed into thinking logic precedes everything - but why would it?

for anyone that wants to know more about different sides of the brain:
here-ya-go

One word: Doublethink

Thought marked by the acceptance of gross contradictions and falsehoods, especially when used as a technique of self-indoctrination:

�Doublethink... is a vast system of mental cheating" -George Orwell

Doublethink! I was just about to post that..... I recently read 1984, so it was sort of in my mind.

yes yes I know - somebody has already said that on another topic.
I am just messing with the idea.

someone explain to me why logic should precede every thought - why a thought is false if it doesn't - I really don't think we think in logical terms at first we just translate it that way later.

after you have answered that try to do it again without doing it in a logical pattern.

lol

doesn't make it true though!

To achieve adjustment and sanity and the conditions that follow from them, we must study the structural characteristics of this world first and, then only, build languages of similar structure, instead of habitually ascribing to the world the primitive structure of our language.

The map is not the territory!

FoxLeonard

Ideas aren't false, though their implications may be.

Logic doesn't precede anything. If anything, it follows.

logic is a very important skill, its the only thing that furthers you in life

Logic doesn't precede anything. If anything, it follows.

yes... so why does logic have a higher value?

To achieve adjustment and sanity and the conditions that follow from them, we must study the structural characteristics of this world first and, then only, build languages of similar structure, instead of habitually ascribing to the world the primitive structure of our language.

Fox!
I can view what you have said in two ways. One in support and one against.
For my argument - logic is the primitive structure of our language as venefrigus says it comes after our thought - our thought being the original study [of] the structural characteristics of this world.
even if it was not on purpose Fox you have once again, not added meaning, but more valued to me, you have opened doors.

this is usually where someone tells me I missed the point.

SenorJesucristo - 'where' does it further you? because I believe if you logically look at logic it cancels itself out... which isn't as horrible as it sounds, well it is if you look at it logically.

govinda!

I usually do unintentional things intentionally...

...and the other way around...

...simultaneously...

When the doors of perception are cleansed, everything will appear to man as it is...

...infinite...

FoxLeonard

See Project MKULTRA. Mind control and brainwshing.

Logic is valuable as a tool for coordinating the observations. The observations themselves, however, are the important part.

I don't think logic logically cancels itself out. So far I've only seen nihilism do that.

i think that nihilism is logic canceling itself out... yet still holding the belief that logic is important.

quote:

---

I usually do unintentional things intentionally...

...and the other way around...

...simultaneously...

When the doors of perception are cleansed, everything will appear to man as it is...

...infinite...

---

a reason to anything is losing importance... just getting to this point is what I find alluring right now.


[This message has been edited by govinda (edited 12-19-2002).]

logic occurs naturally, its not just something that was invented and forced upon us. 4 example, a chimp can watch other chimps use a stick 2 dig at an ant hill such that they can eat the ants. the chimp will learn from that and start doing the same. then if they see something else that they want that might be half burried in the ground, they have the ability 2 logically conclude that they could dig it out using a tool of sorts.

Nihilism isn't logical.

Nihilism is a tool for bothering people. Not a very clever one, either.

Several million people would disagree with that, but see no reason to.

quote:

---

Originally posted by O'CYRUS:logic occurs naturally, its not just something that was invented and forced upon us. 4 example, a chimp can watch other chimps use a stick 2 dig at an ant hill such that they can eat the ants. the chimp will learn from that and start doing the same. then if they see something else that they want that might be half burried in the ground, they have the ability 2 logically conclude that they could dig it out using a tool of sorts.

---

yes but it has it's limits... logic tells me there is no point to anything, that any truth or reason I find - when I logically pursue it to the root I come up empty handed. bah! logic has just cancelled itself out. it has logically explained logic away. so instead I will leave behind trying to find reason... as I have whims that I would like to keep, and currently I am interested in what comes before logic and reason.
doesn't mean that I don't understand what logic is supposed to be.


[This message has been edited by govinda (edited 12-21-2002).]

Are you sure?

Logic does not say there is no point to anything. And you didn't even demonstrate logic canceling itself out. You demonstrated it annoying you.

I see what you mean - but I don't think you are reading what I am saying properly... if logic says no truth can be completely relied on then isn't logic too in question?.. and if logic can question it's own validence using that same system of logic then isn't that cancelling itself out?

the fact that it cancels itself out matters little - it is only needed when communicating an idea to someone who still follows closely to its rules... I think. I don't think we actually use it much in pure (if there is such a thing) thought.

Logic is a method for the discovery of truths, not a truth. A truth would be something like "The marmoset in the power plant is red."

Also, even if you were getting it right, it would merely mean "no truth can be completely relied upon" is false.

I'm not sure what you mean by pure thought. But logic is used in some thought and not in others, depending on it's relevance.

so how do you discover truths with something that has nothing to do with an irrational world or irrational thought (pure thought) - what if logic is just a construct above and beyond reality with little or no ties to anything?

from a previous quote:
the self is nothing, it has no meaning, yet is the source of all meanings

maybe we have built something from nothing in order to explain away nothing...?

gOvInDa: iF yOu aRE gOinG tO GiVE uP LoGiC fOr 'PuRe ThOuGhT' tHeN YoU sHoULD StOp TeLLiNg YoUrsELf ThaT.

HONK! HONK! HONK!

ARRRRROOOOOGGGAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

LOaN NuTs Da CLoWn
a.k.a. tHe HoLidAy Boy