HeLLo FoX LeOnARd!

I hAvE sTaRTeD a NEw ThREaD tO REsPoNd To YoUr sTaTeMeNtS iN ThaT MoSt HoRRiBLe Of THrEaDs,"THE MATRIX HAS YOU...".

FiRsT oF ALL, In CaSe YoU tHiNk I wAs AddRessInG YoU oR eVeN BLaMiNg YoU sOmeHoW fOr tHe InSaNiTY oF THaT PaRtIcULaR EXcUrSIoN iNtO a HeLL oF VagaRiEs---Do NoT!

HONK! HONK! HONK!

aLL I waS trYinG tO sAy, wAs tHaT i CoUlD NoT eNdUrE tHe MaDnEsS oF tHe ThREaD aNy LoNgER. I hAnG Out WiTh CaRnIeS, SiR. I KnoW WhAT TrUe MaDnEsS iS, AnD LeT Me TeLL YoU, ThErE ArE a FeW PaRtiCIpAnTs oF ThAt ThREaD ThaT ArE VERY, very ClOsE tO GoInG oVEr ThE EdGe ThEmSeLvEs. AnY tIme AnYoNe TaKeS AnY HoLLyWooD ImAgEs And ImPLiEs sO mUCh MeAnInG AnD SiGNifIcAnCe TO ThEm, I kNoW ThAT "MEDICATION TIME" iS JuSt ArOUnD ThE BenD FoR ThEM. ALsO, To HaVe An ArGuMenT WiTh DeLiBeRaTeLy VaGuE TeRmS iS APProAcHinG InSaNitY iF It iS eNgAgEd In---SERIOUSLY! YeS, I knOw YoU WeRe NoT sO SeRIOUs, buT SOmE WERE. AbbOt AnD CoSTeLLO'S cLaSSiC 'WHo'S On FiRsT' SketCh, iF TaKeN SerIOusLy, CoULd KiLL A MiLLIoN BrAin CeLLs aN HoUr. HaViNg aLrEadY KiLLed EnOugh Of mY GreY CeLLs tHrOuGH CLo?NInG aNd RiOtoUs LiViNg, I sImPlY DecIdEd tO ReMovE MySELf fRoM tHaT ThREad, BefOrE It SevErEd tHe UnEasY, BuT VERy ReaL aNd PraCtiCaL PeaCe ThAt I've EsTabLishEd WItH ToTsE.Com.

iT waS NoThInG PeRsOnAL

HONK! HOnkETY! HoNk---HonK! ;o)

LoaN Nuts Da Clo?n
a.k.a. the 'unfeathered one'

quote:

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Originally posted by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN:
HeLLo FoX LeOnARd!

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hEllO lOaN nUtS! (ThIS iS NOT cOpY-CaTIng, I�m JuST trYiNG tO mAkE tHiS pOsT EAsiEr tO rEAd As A whOLe)

quote:

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I hAvE sTaRTeD a NEw ThREaD tO REsPoNd To YoUr sTaTeMeNtS iN ThaT MoSt HoRRiBLe Of THrEaDs,"THE MATRIX HAS YOU...".

FiRsT oF ALL, In CaSe YoU tHiNk I wAs AddRessInG YoU oR eVeN BLaMiNg YoU sOmeHoW fOr tHe InSaNiTY oF THaT PaRtIcULaR EXcUrSIoN iNtO a HeLL oF VagaRiEs---Do NoT!

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I DiDn�t BeLIeVe sO, mR NuTs. I JuST ChoOSe To aDResS yOU As iF mY POsT hAd BeEn iNsTRuMeNtAL iN yOuR DEcIsiOn. aS It sOMehOW gAvE Me eVEn mOoRE roOM tO pOInT OuT tHe iNcOncIstENceS Of THat ToPIc, iF nOT The THreAd AS awHOlE pErHAps.

quote:

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HONK! HONK! HONK!

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yES ThAt Is sELf EViDeNt tO Me tOo!

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aLL I waS trYinG tO sAy, wAs tHaT i CoUlD NoT eNdUrE tHe MaDnEsS oF tHe ThREaD aNy LoNgER. I hAnG Out WiTh CaRnIeS, SiR.

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rIGhT nOW yOu AlSO HaNG oUt WiTh cANinES!

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I KnoW WhAT TrUe MaDnEsS iS, AnD LeT Me TeLL YoU, ThErE ArE a FeW PaRtiCIpAnTs oF ThAt ThREaD ThaT ArE VERY, very ClOsE tO GoInG oVEr ThE EdGe ThEmSeLvEs. AnY tIme AnYoNe TaKeS AnY HoLLyWooD ImAgEs And ImPLiEs sO mUCh MeAnInG AnD SiGNifIcAnCe TO ThEm, I kNoW ThAT "MEDICATION TIME" iS JuSt ArOUnD ThE BenD FoR ThEM.

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dOInG iT tO THaT eXTeNt, i AGrEe. YEt iT CaN Be EFeCtIVe To uSe PoPUlAr ImAgES As mEtAPHoRs FoR WhAT�s HApPEnInG, iN THe sO cALLeD rEaL wORlD. tHe MaTRix MoVIe CoUlD Be USeD As aN ALarM ClOCk, To sHoW PeoPlE ThaT tHe RiSk Of mEdIa InDoCTriNaTiOn IS rEaL. tHaT iS aLsO wHaT mR LiOnhArT NoW cLaIMS hImsELf Of dOiNg. OnLy To sTuMbLe bACk InTo ConSpiRaNoIa, In tHe VeRy nExT SEnTeNCe. ThErEbY AlSo sHuTtINg OuT tHoSe WhO WeRE pErHapS WiLLiNg To LiSTen, AnD TaKe ThE wARnInG SeRIoUs. iF tHeRe WaS a mATrIx, Mr LiONhEaRt WoUlD ACtUaLlY bE oNE Of THeIR AgENtS, If UnWiTtINglY, PeRHapS. BeCAuSE hIS OvEr THe ToP aPpRoACh mAkEs SO LiTTlE sENsE - I HOPE - tHaT PeOpLE tUrN AwAy FRoM tHE WhOlE iSsUe. LeAvINg tHe mAtRiX tO wOrK iN pEaCe, hAd ThErE bEeN oNE.

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ALsO, To HaVe An ArGuMenT WiTh DeLiBeRaTeLy VaGuE TeRmS iS APProAcHinG InSaNitY iF It iS eNgAgEd In---SERIOUSLY! YeS, I knOw YoU WeRe NoT sO SeRIOUs, buT SOmE WERE.

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WeLl, I sTaRtEd OuT sErIOuS, JusT To ReaLIse ThAt THe OrIgInAtOr OF tHe THReaD WAs VeRy SeRIoUs, fOR AlL tHe wRoNG rEAsOnS.

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AbbOt AnD CoSTeLLO'S cLaSSiC 'WHo'S On FiRsT' SketCh, iF TaKeN SerIOusLy, CoULd KiLL A MiLLIoN BrAin CeLLs aN HoUr.

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aS CaN OthER cLaSsIcAl CoMeDiAn gRoUpS aNd THeIr sKETcHeS: LaUrEL aND hARdY; hITleR aNd MuSsOlInI; cLInToN, sHaRoN aNd aRAfAT, nOt To mEnTiOn bUSh AnD sADdAm, wItH tHeIr SiDeKiCKs BlAiR aND bIn LaDEn. rEAL mINd BLowINg cOmEdY iF yOU aSk mE.

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HaViNg aLrEadY KiLLed EnOugh Of mY GreY CeLLs tHrOuGH CLo?NInG aNd RiOtoUs LiViNg, I sImPlY DecIdEd tO ReMovE MySELf fRoM tHaT ThREad,

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I DeCIdEd To stAY To sEe If I CoUlD PeRHaPs SaVE a fEw OtHeRs FrOm A DEsTiNy WOrSe tHaN dEaTh.

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BefOrE It SevErEd tHe UnEasY, BuT VERy ReaL aNd PraCtiCaL PeaCe ThAt I've EsTabLishEd WItH ToTsE.Com.

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I�m GlAd To hEaR ThAt, mR NuTs, AS iT Is vERy iMpOrtANt FoR uS HErE aT tOtSe, tO HAvE YOuR eXpErtIsE, WiTh EVeRyThInG FrOm AmErICaN ShApEd BAlOonS, To CoNsPiRAcIes, At hAnd.

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iT waS NoThInG PeRsOnAL

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It sELdOm iS iN tHe "ReAl" wOrLD nOwAdaYs...

(AnD THaT wAs nOtHiNg PeRsOnAL tO YOu Mr NuTs)

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HONK! HOnkETY! HoNk---HonK! ;o)

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As SeLfEvIdEnT aS BEfOrE! I aGrEe!

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LoaN Nuts Da Clo?n
a.k.a. the 'unfeathered one'

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aNd WiThOuT TaR As WeLl I HoPe?! aFtEr HaViNg ViSItEd tHe TAR BABY oF thReaDs, I mEaN...

pOlItIcS ArE jUSt tHE EnTeRtAiNmEnT bRaNcH oF iNDuStRy...

HaiL HONK! aNd a HeArTy EwIgE bLUmEnkRaFT tO YoU, mR nUtS, As AdAm wOuLd HAvE SaId. bLeSs HiS eH...Eh...NeVeRmInD...

fOX lEONARD

a matrix is a combinatin of elements that combines into greater whole. DNA is a matrix of Dioxy ribose nucleaic acid (or somethign like that). REality is a matrix of living and inanimate, conciuos and unconcious things and creatures. 'The Matrix' is a metaphor of all things that can be classified as a 'matrix' except that it has a sci-fi/intrigue/drama story to it for movie purposes.

Fox Leonard:

Ok, fair enough. Metaphors are great, by the way, but I like my metaphors a little less Hollywood. I'm sure that the "Matrix" metaphor that is being bandied about so much on that "TAR BABY OF THREADS" somehow means a little more to its users than a less Hollywood metaphor would have, or should. To use that movie, or almost any recent Hollywood movie as a metaphor for anything other than 'that which floats in the porcelain bowl' is a rather weighty mistake in my book. But hey---I was teenager once. I remember how impressed I was with special effects, etc. Yeah, at a certain time in life, to say,"Use the force, Luke," seems kinda cool. Or funny. But it ain't philosophy, friend, no matter what Yoda told you. Its Hollywood.

About this whole Bush/Blair 'comedy' you refer to. As an American citizen, I can only tell you that I'm not laughing about their 'skit'. Declaring a war on 'terrorism' is to declare an unending war; a war with an ever-morphing enemy. This is oppurtunism at its worst/best that is not only terrorizing the world, but also the American people. The tragedy of 9/11 has been politicized by these people to strip away the rights of American citizens and declare war on______________. That's right, fill in the blank, because its a war against terrorism, not Iraq, or Iran, or any other REAL country, and thus their motives and plans cannot easily be analyzed by the common man. If its a comedy, its black, sir.

About your retort to me telling you it was not personal, where you say that these days, nothing is personal---I get your meaning and agree. However, that is not how I meant it when I originally said it. But then, you understand that, too.

Hey, I don't know if Totse.com needs anything I'm offering. I'm just offering my very own, personal opinion. And a little levity. I'm sure that both my opinions and jokes are lost to most on this site but neither life, nor Totse is a popularity contest so I don't really give a @*p$$!*! what anyone thinks! Nevertheless, I love each and every one of you. <SMOOCH!> ;o

Goodnight. Or goodmorning. Whichever.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. ______________(fill in blank)

[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-06-2002).]

Loan Nuts,

I've decided to take your advice and avoid contact with the bank which has hijacked your good name for the purposes of offering me a loan. I understand what you said. You, as ever, have made some good points. I listen and I learn.

As for popularity contests, I can tell you right now that they are extremely easy to win. Molding and directing people (kind of like herding actually) is a more complex task. But an achievable one. Soon, I will send a couple of pieces of a project to Fox, if you send me your email I would be happy to offer you the same.

As ever, I am still trying to formulate the right questions to ask of a political scientist and a clown. And it is still an engaging endeavour.

Fox, I am juggling almost as well as Loan might at the moment. Juggling my work commitments, my passion and my happiness. The piece I will send soon, I am tweaking it a little because no one has seen it apart from me before. As it turns out I'm just as egocentric as my teachers once claimed. Just not as lazy and far more clued up.

As for the Holocaust. The initial problem is scary. The solution is simple. The Holocaust came about due to the same dynamics that fuel consumerism and corporate irresponsibility. I believe, the solution to the one is the solution to the other. And I think you already understand how I plan to meet and (try to) overcome consumerism and corporate irresponsibility.

And if I'm wrong, or if I fail, 5000 others will attempt to accomplish the same task. It will take only one of us to succeed.

Loan Nuts!

I agree that Hollywood metaphors are for most of the time unworthy of that name. Still, they are what is delivered and "understood" as metaphors today. (perhaps we are getting "too old for this", but it doesn�t feel like).

If used right, and NOT as a vehicle for conspiranoia, any metaphor at hand, that people can relate to, can be usefull. And especially so as a warning.

People like the guy who stumbled in here, both drunk and stoned, according to his name, and gave some muddled definition, also stumbled into the thread where you don�t thread anymore. There he gave an "explanation" that made David Icke seem like The New York Times, in comparition. Yet again one who claims to live in a meta-world.

We DO, and many things are - as you use to say - done by mirrors. But not the planet in itself, nor it�s inhabitants and most of their deeds. Nor are we beaten by any system yet. And even if we were, I would ignore it here, as there is always a chance to fight back, as long as there is life.

Yes the Bush/Saddam/Blair/binLaden "comedy" was a tasteless joke, but in some ways it reads like black comedy, including the protesting "audience" who throw their tomatoes with carefull aiming and full force at the stage settings, instead of at the bad actors, or at the script writers in the middle of the front row. (same kind of missing the target as in the Matrix topic).

I agree that the war on terror is a flawed concept. In the same time i have a hard time seeing anybody deliberately plan for a neverending war. I can�t really see the use of that. Not as a war in itself, nor as a way to control the "Homeland".

It also seems to me that there is a war to fight, or something to (be prepared to) protect from. The perverted version of Jihad that the Islamist International et al seems to have gotten on its way, is indeed a real threat, as far as I can understand. Taking information from other sources than main-stream (Matrix) media, I hasten to add. If so, Bush was more correct when his tounge slipped the first day, calling for a Crusade. (even if this isn�t a religious war at all, from the US American stand point, of course).

Yes, we are in agreement about understanding that we have understood that we didn�t take the non personal issues personal when they were discussed as such, and/or the other way around.

I actually beleive your posts are read by far more people than those who reply, or even reply at all, in the particular thread. And then I mean the entertainment and baloons, as well as the serious stuff. We need both, and at the same time can more often be right than wrong. I have said it before and I say it again:

The Conspirologist can not communicate, but the Artist can!

A big SMOOCH! to you and lots of Love in return!

It is goodmorning here...don�t know �bout there...

Good- morning/night!

FoxLeonard

quote:

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Originally posted by 123Tool:

Fox, I am juggling almost as well as Loan might at the moment.

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A juggler, a fox and a clown in the same thread! WOW! We can start selling tickets to the circus!

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Juggling my work commitments, my passion and my happiness.

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That should read:

My Passion, my Happiness and...my work commitments!

In THAT order! And that�s an order!

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And if I'm wrong, or if I fail,

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You are not and you will not!

FoxLeonard

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Originally posted by 123Tool:
Loan Nuts,

I've decided to take your advice and avoid contact with the bank which has hijacked your good name for the purposes of offering me a loan. I understand what you said. You, as ever, have made some good points. I listen and I learn.

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If I helped you in any way from getting into an unneccessary debt, then I am glad. Sometimes it is neccessary, but for the long haul---avoid it and you will grow richer than your peers.

quote:

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As for popularity contests, I can tell you right now that they are extremely easy to win. Molding and directing people (kind of like herding actually) is a more complex task. But an achievable one. Soon, I will send a couple of pieces of a project to Fox, if you send me your email I would be happy to offer you the same.

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I might send you my email, but I can promise you right now that I have no interest in becoming popular or molding/shaping anyone. If I affect anyone's views or life, then that was 'their' project. For me, public speaking is for God's approval, not Man's.

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As ever, I am still trying to formulate the right questions to ask of a political scientist and a clown. And it is still an engaging endeavour.

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Ahhh...just ask whatever questions you want. We're all humans here, and we're all capable of error. Relax.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. just another guy in a meat-suit


[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-06-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
Loan Nuts!

I agree that Hollywood metaphors are for most of the time unworthy of that name. Still, they are what is delivered and "understood" as metaphors today. (perhaps we are getting "too old for this", but it doesn�t feel like).

If used right, and NOT as a vehicle for conspiranoia, any metaphor at hand, that people can relate to, can be usefull. And especially so as a warning.

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What can I say? I feel that a metaphor like the Matrix does more to muddy the waters than to clear them. You and others decide that it is good enough. We disagree.

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We DO, and many things are - as you use to say - done by mirrors. But not the planet in itself, nor it�s inhabitants and most of their deeds. Nor are we beaten by any system yet. And even if we were, I would ignore it here, as there is always a chance to fight back, as long as there is life.

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Well, I am no revolutionary, Mr. Leonard, at least when it comes to overturning the way things have always been. Powerfull people have always abused their power. Poor and weak people always gather together to oppress the strong. Whether rich or poor, the same illness infects all of humanity---to want what is not ours. There is no way I or anyone else can overturn what Adam started. Its in our blood. I'm not saying that things can't be improved, or that the proverbial 'word' can't get out, and that through brave, human action, we cannot make the world we live in a better place---we can. But as long as there are fallen humans in places of authority, there will be abuses of that power. I meet poor people who lie to me every day, and if I weren't looking, they might steal from me, and knock me out and hurt me if they had the chance. Elevate a homeless wino to police chief and he eventually might abuse his powers, too. In fact, he'll probably go after the winos first before the speak up and tell the world about his 'true nature.' There will never be ANY change, ANYWHERE if people do not realize that humans, all humans, are flawed. And that this includes themselves. This can only come about by people being honest with themselves, and THAT is becoming the rarest of all commodities. Therefore, the authorities of this age wax worse. And if they could ever just get those damn computer chips into the proles heads then, then...

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I agree that the war on terror is a flawed concept. In the same time i have a hard time seeing anybody deliberately plan for a neverending war. I can�t really see the use of that. Not as a war in itself, nor as a way to control the "Homeland".

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I agree. It is an insane way to grab power. But Americans are feeling it reach around their neck every day. With the U.S. Patriot Act we have lost our right to privacy, and our right to speak confidentially with an attorney, and the freedom from govt. surveillance without court approval. The U.S. govt. is now using the new office of 'Homeland Security' to Federalize our local police forces. And the list goes on and on and on. I know many Americans will ve disagree with me and call me very unflattering names, but it is true. Right now, sir, the U.S. has practically open borders. If the U.S. govt. were serious about fighting terrorists, they'd close those borders. They'd use the military, and they'd close them. But that is not happening. Instead, they are stripping the rights of U.S. citizens with their new "Department of Homeland Invasion." Please do not misunderstand me. I AM NOT saying that the U.S. govt. attacked itself and the country on 9/11. I am just saying that the current administration is callously using that tragedy to finally grow our Federal govt. to European standards. We are now AmeriKa. Also, they have foolishly tried to use this tragedy in their foreign policy and military ventures but the rest of the world is not nearly as impressed as the frightened American citizens. And they are frightened, sir.

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It also seems to me that there is a war to fight, or something to (be prepared to) protect from. The perverted version of Jihad that the Islamist International et al seems to have gotten on its way, is indeed a real threat, as far as I can understand. Taking information from other sources than main-stream (Matrix) media, I hasten to add. If so, Bush was more correct when his tounge slipped the first day, calling for a Crusade. (even if this isn�t a religious war at all, from the US American stand point, of course).

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We are in complete agreement here as well. Despite the schemes of the American adminstration, the threat of radical islam to world peace is a real one. But Crusades? That would imply a religious motive on the part of the West, and more specifically, a Christian motive. The U.S.'s involvement in Bosnia ought to tell you that it has no religious preference. And though I have never been to Europe, I've had many European friends who've told me that, and I quote,"The churches are empty." So I don't see a Crusades here. Correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps you Europeans do feel some kind of Christian impulse to 'liberate' the Holy Land from the Muslims. But somehow I seriously doubt that. I don't even think the Pope wants to convert or kill Muslims anymore does he? Doesn't the current Pope kind of forsake Jesus in the presence of Muslims or Jews and then proclaim Him again when he wants to shame people into not killing each other? Didn't the Pope fail at an excorcism a few years ago? Hmmmm....

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Yes, we are in agreement about understanding that we have understood that we didn�t take the non personal issues personal when they were discussed as such, and/or the other way around.

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This was totally unnecessary, Fox. ; )

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I actually beleive your posts are read by far more people than those who reply, or even reply at all, in the particular thread. And then I mean the entertainment and baloons, as well as the serious stuff.

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Well, maybe...but then again, with enough red wine, who cares? I like the French stuff. And the Spanish. Some Italian, too. NO Californian wine, and definitely no Australian wine EVER! But some Texas wines are nice. Seriously.

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The Conspirologist can not communicate, but the Artist can!

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I agree. But its just a shame that most artists are complete idiots.

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A big SMOOCH! to you and lots of Love in return!

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Good, grief man---I'm engaged!

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It is goodmorning here...don�t know �bout there...

Good- morning/night!

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zzZZZZZzZZZzzZZZz

Loan nU...

[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-06-2002).]

Popularity is easy, therefore it is uninteresting to me as a goal. Directing others is not easy, and it is extremely interesting due to the possibilities it presents. Loan, how can we feel aggravated by power corrupted individuals without naturally feeling a desire to convince them to act in a fashion more in accordance with our values? I know you live with this desire, I can see it in your posts.

Loan, the one constant I have become familiar with throughout my life is that of change. Constant change. People are not the same as they were 20 years ago. Or 50 or 100 or 500. (We were a lot shorter back then and had worse teeth). We were physically different and we were mentally, emotionally and spiritually different. We have changed, a great deal. There are no intrinsic facets of human "nature". Nothing intrinsic because we as a group can change radically. We are changing radically.

Don't misunderstand me, there's no point in sticking your oar in if this will make you miserable. No point in driving towards a (probably unattainable in our lifetime) ideal if it makes us dispirited and lessens the quality of our life. But if our tasks are chosen carefully; if we apply ouselves with prudence and awareness then we can begin to unlock the mental shackles binding us in a fashion which appears absolute. There are no absolutes on the subject of the quality of people. I do not believe that there will always be some in "power" who will act corruptly. This is because I see a total change in perception of what "power" is. You say people always want those things that are not their own. I say that people always want what they think they want.

People "want", this is (perhaps) one of the flaws you were hinting at. I believe we can use this flaw extremely productively. I believe people can be herded and the reason I believe they can be herded is because I can see them being herded right now.

It's just not being done in a way I approve of... yet.

quote:

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Originally posted by 123Tool:
Popularity is easy, therefore it is uninteresting to me as a goal. Directing others is not easy, and it is extremely interesting due to the possibilities it presents. Loan, how can we feel aggravated by power corrupted individuals without naturally feeling a desire to convince them to act in a fashion more in accordance with our values? I know you live with this desire, I can see it in your posts.

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Wolves only understand the wisdom of the teeth, or the whip. The only way to make politicians honest to any degree is for them to FEAR what would happen if they are caught abusing the public. Well, with gun control and the feminization of men in the West, the politicians have absolutely nothing to fear except losing an election. However, with the advent of computerized voting machines, even elections can be easily tampered with without a trace. The politicians work for the Ruling Class, not you or me anymore. The Ruling class scare them---not us. I don't see that changing any time soon either.

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Loan, the one constant I have become familiar with throughout my life is that of change. Constant change. People are not the same as they were 20 years ago. Or 50 or 100 or 500. (We were a lot shorter back then and had worse teeth). We were physically different and we were mentally, emotionally and spiritually different. We have changed, a great deal. There are no intrinsic facets of human "nature". Nothing intrinsic because we as a group can change radically. We are changing radically.

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There is an old saying, that:"The more things change, the more they stay the same." Underneath the swirl of changes, I think you will find some constants in human nature. When you say "spiritually, everyone is changing," I can only say---speak for yourself. If you mean that paganism is on the upswing in the West, then I agree. But that did not come about for no reason. The majority in the West lost their own spiritual ideals first. Then neo-paganism filled that vacuum in many of their children, just as reality television and yuppie-ism did with many others. If some one has core beliefs and values, he does not change as much, Tool. The reason things seem to change so radically today is that the majority believe nothing and value nothing. There's more, much more I could say on this topic, but thats all for now. If you were here we could talk about this for hours. But in the end, I think my answers would probably disappoint you.

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You say people always want those things that are not their own. I say that people always want what they think they want.

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I want for nothing, Tool. I know God. Social engineering skills are a poor substitute, for the Rockefellers or for me.

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I believe people can be herded and the reason I believe they can be herded is because I can see them being herded right now.

It's just not being done in a way I approve of... yet.

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To want to herd people your way, presupposes many beliefs about yourself that maybe you have not fully examined. I examined myself once for this very reason. I did not like what I found. In my younger days, there were some people that I herded with my charm and wit. I repent for this every day.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. yet another mortal



[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-06-2002).]

Loan, I am a kindergarten teacher. I know a little about compassionate enforcement of my will. It does not suggest I have an inflated sense of self. It shows I have an understanding of how my value system can be encouraged in others; that I want to take responsibility for my world does not make me blind to myself and my faults. You have rightly suspected that I do not in fact know "god". But I do believe in the objective existence of a Universe independent of myself. I have a very good sense of scope. I'm not saying that you don't but I will say that my coming from a smaller community like NZ will affect my "world view" as much as the fact that you coming from the States affects yours.

My grandfather and my great grandfather were both mayors of a small town in Nz called Kaiapoi. They were both potato farmers. I have no gilt edged impressions of who they were and what they hoped to achieve. But they among many others in my life shape my world view.

***** sorry, I have to go meet my girlfriend ***** and I can't bear to delete what Iv'e already finished, SORRY!!!!

[This message has been edited by 123Tool (edited 12-07-2002).]

Well, Tool, before you continue next time, let me say a few things.

I was not trying to 'preach' to you, or 'save' you, etc. I am not an evangelist. But for ME to honestly state my postition to you, I have to use some religious language, or make some references to God in my replies. If you are not religious, I don't look down on you in the least. I went the majority of my life as a complete athiest, and in my younger days, one of my goals in life was to send Christians once again to the lions.

Now in regards to the word 'herding', you should have put that in context for me or others. The herding of small children is one thing---they require it! It is not for nothing that it takes 18 to 21 years for a human to be 'chastised' into adulthood. But when we speak of adults, we should not use that word. At least, I won't.

Also, let me clarify once again that I do not think it impossible or undesirable to improve the world we now live in. But I think the common man needs to become a 'man' again for that to happen. Right now, the common man in the West is a vacuum waiting to be filled, just like his masters at the banks and in the media like him to be:Feminized, drugged, and entertained.
This requires an introspection and brutal honesty within the common man that only religious values could give him.

NZ world view vs. the U.S.? Sorry, I don't buy into that as a rebuttal for anything I've previously stated, though I do understand that the difference between these two places is great. But I assume educated adults from NZ could converse with me in a logical fashion and I expect the same courtesy. Concentrate on my arguments, Tool, not where I'm from. I've always extended you the same courtesy.

Ok, thats all for me now, too. I hope you and your girlfriend are having a pleasant Saturday afternoon/night.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. an enjoyer of Saturdays

Hi Loan!

I'd like to first say that I really enjoy our exchanges and because of this it is rational for me to, at least, attempt a course whereby I do not offend you and cause our exchange to end. You were saying I should just come out and ask you any question I like; it looks to me like I need to think carefully not only about my questions but my statements too.

I have shown you that I am an athiest as a courtesy because you have told me your faith. I did not feel like you were preaching to me in any way. I would not be so insecure to judge you if you did anyway. I was trying to show you that I am not doing and saying the things that I am doing and saying with a small amount of thought and reflection. I felt like you had an incomplete picture of who I am. It seems obvious that I have an incomplete picture of who you are.

I don't look down upon you in the least for your faith. I respect faith and I understand how in many cases it makes people better. I'm an athiest; in it's scope within the paradigm of my mind it is a faith like any other.

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Originally posted by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN:The reason things seem to change so radically today is that the majority believe nothing and value nothing.

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When one holds this opinion of the majority how is it not appropriate to use the term "herding"? Hmmm, perhaps you have taught me something here. Perhaps there are fewer places on this planet where I would be wise to make my technique public than I at first thought...

You understand, of course, that I am not talking about out and out manipulation. (We're really struggling with semantics now). What I mean by that is I don't on a one to one basis intend to convince people to do things for my personal gain. Neither as some sort of "power trip" nor as a technique for gathering advantage unto myself. I have enough advantage already, I don't need any more. And I think I'm in tune with myself sufficiently to cease and desist if I ever trhought I was doing any of this in order to feel superior to other people.

BUT, I have been granted (through colossal good luck) a massively advantaged position in my world. I have a responsiblity to share this advantage, not to selfishly gather it to myself. My responsibility comes from my value system. It is a requirement I can't help but place upon myself. I yam what I yam. Furthermore, I am not unaware of the fact that my value system is a direct descendant of the Christian Church's. I don't consider this a flaw, but a strength.

You have stated that you believe the majority don't believe in anything. If I am included in this statement due to my status as an athiest you are sorely wrong. Regardless, I recognise many of the same problems that you are describing; it's just I don't believe the solution is to fall back to stronger thiest traditions. The solution lies in a complex interpretation of human society as it stands now. I could write a great deal more about this but I won't, for now.

Which aspects of feminization are you opposed to? It's a huge playing field that.

Nz is a smaller community than America, therefore, by definition I will feel a more personal connection the concept of state which is nz than you (and your countrymen) will feel towards the concept of state which is America. Notice I'm not saying whether either is a superior position to be in. That would be a mistake of semantics. They are merely DIFFERENT positions to be in. And they need to be noted.

Sorry, I've got to go again, but I hope this clarifies a little about what I was trying to say in my last post. It's great to chat to you Loan, you have an interesting set of values which I am thoroughly interested in understanding and appreciating. Sir, I hope that I have extended courtesy where it is required and brutal honesty where it is preferred.

I'm off to the zoo with the girlfriend!

To the batmobile!

Throwing Christians to the lions!? That's just sick...

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Originally posted by 123Tool:

Hi Loan!

I'd like to first say that I really enjoy our exchanges and because of this it is rational for me to, at least, attempt a course whereby I do not offend you and cause our exchange to end. You were saying I should just come out and ask you any question I like; it looks to me like I need to think carefully not only about my questions but my statements too.

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You haven't offended me, and even if you did, I'd just forgive you and continue on. Also, remember that this is not a perfect medium for communication and that without the aid of voice inflection, it is EASY to misread someone's tone. Many things I say in jest, or lightly, may be taken very heavily by others because of this lack of the audio/visual side of communication. But don't worry about me. I don't take myself seriously enough to get easily offended, and when I do---I don't take it seriously for long.

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I have shown you that I am an athiest as a courtesy because you have told me your faith. I did not feel like you were preaching to me in any way. I would not be so insecure to judge you if you did anyway.

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Good.

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I was trying to show you that I am not doing and saying the things that I am doing and saying with a small amount of thought and reflection. I felt like you had an incomplete picture of who I am. It seems obvious that I have an incomplete picture of who you are.

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Well, shit happens. Relax. I ain't worried about it.

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I don't look down upon you in the least for your faith. I respect faith and I understand how in many cases it makes people better.

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Good. That makes you less hypocritical, my friend, because in the end, we humans can not know ANYTHING except through faith. It is only the OBJECT of our FAITH that is different.

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I'm an athiest; in it's scope within the paradigm of my mind it is a faith like any other.

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Yep. That's what I just said. ;o)

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When one holds this opinion of the majority how is it not appropriate to use the term "herding"?

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Well, I don't have a low opinion of the majority. Ignorance is ignorance. Drug addiction is drug addiction. Slavery is slavery. I don't look at the ignorant, the drug addict, or the slave as inferior to me. He is my brother in the slime. I would not reach down to "herd" him out of the quicksand. I would reach down to give him a helping hand out. It is my belief that my fellow man is better off when he is not "herded" by his fellow man, but helped, or assisted. As a Christian, however, I hold that God has and is the moral and spiritual authority necessary for "herding". He is the Good Shepard, after all.

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Hmmm, perhaps you have taught me something here. Perhaps there are fewer places on this planet where I would be wise to make my technique public than I at first thought...

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Too abstruse for me to comment upon.

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You understand, of course, that I am not talking about out and out manipulation. (We're really struggling with semantics now). What I mean by that is I don't on a one to one basis intend to convince people to do things for my personal gain. Neither as some sort of "power trip" nor as a technique for gathering advantage unto myself. I have enough advantage already, I don't need any more. And I think I'm in tune with myself sufficiently to cease and desist if I ever trhought I was doing any of this in order to feel superior to other people.

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There is an old saying that:"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."(Was it Milton who said it first? It should have been, if it wasn't.)To work secretly upon someone to make them think or feel a certain way, "for their own good," is not an honest way to proceed. I believe, rather, in telling someone, or people in general, the truth straight out. They can accept it, reject it, put it on the back burner, sort through it---whatever. Because of it they may wax worse, or they may get better. They may even nail me to a cross for speaking it. None of that matters. It is my duty to give my honest opinion to my fellow man, even if they kill me. Thus, the truth will set me 'free' either immediately, or as an octagenarian.

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You have stated that you believe the majority don't believe in anything. If I am included in this statement due to my status as an athiest you are sorely wrong.

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No, I do not believe that one must believe in God to have values or to be a good citizen or to be a moral being. However, I know that God is the well spring of Man's desire to "do the right thing" and is the Higher Authority needed to give Man that set of guidelines. I would listen to NO mortal man tell me about 'right' and 'wrong' based on his OWN authority. He's got none with me.

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Regardless, I recognise many of the same problems that you are describing; it's just I don't believe the solution is to fall back to stronger thiest traditions. The solution lies in a complex interpretation of human society as it stands now.

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The problems I describe are the ones that are and always have been, problems for humanity. The only difference between today and yesteryear is that today, mankind is PROUD of its problems, thus the rate of decay in our very humanity has been accelerated to a very rapid pace. If Western Man learned how to blush once more, the rate of decay would return to normal. Why should the Godless man blush? To what authority, does he willingly bow when no one is looking? Naturally, we will disagree to the answers to these rhetorical questions. Big deal. We both get 70 or so years to hash this out, then we come face to Face.

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I could write a great deal more about this but I won't, for now.

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Good. I'll spare you mine, too. We'll spare each other. ;o)

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Which aspects of feminization are you opposed to? It's a huge playing field that.

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Feminization looks good on women. On men it is, well---gay. I'm not going to argue homosexuality one way or the other. Homosexuals will answer to God one day, not me. Nor will I answer to them. All I'm saying about the feminization of men in the West is what I've already said in previous posts. And that is this: The new 'girly-men' strike no fear in the hearts of corporations, bankers, politicians, or aristocracy. Perhaps you are too young to remember many people from the WW2 generation. They were the last "MEN" of the common man. Real men, that is. Perhaps all you've ever known are all the aging 60s hipsters posing as men. If so, I can see why you might be at a loss to know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, there's really nothing I can say or do to give you that kind of first hand knowledge of real men; men who would lay down their lives to save their country and their families from Hitler and the Corporations. (Forming unions was often as bloody a business as real combat.)

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Nz is a smaller community than America, therefore, by definition I will feel a more personal connection the concept of state which is nz than you (and your countrymen) will feel towards the concept of state which is America.

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Well, Tool, NZ is about the size of many counties in the U.S. We have local municipal governments that I have to deal with that are the size of N.Z. I also have that huge behemoth in Washington D.C. to negotiate, too. By your logic, I would have more experience with BOTH scenarios. But that's your logic, not mine. I think we are both capable of talking intelligently about these subjects regardless of where we're from.

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Notice I'm not saying whether either is a superior position to be in.

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Oh come on Tool! Take a stand! HONK! HONK! HONK! ;0)

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It's great to chat to you Loan, you have an interesting set of values which I am thoroughly interested in understanding and appreciating. Sir, I hope that I have extended courtesy where it is required and brutal honesty where it is preferred.

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Well, its nice talking to you, too, Tool. Its always good to make new friends. I'm always surprized when a European, or Pacific Rim Westerner can tolerate me. I often seem to be the European's worst nightmare: An Ugly But Articulate American! Oh well. Perhaps you and Fox Leonard will hate me soon. We'll see.

No more long discourses from me for a few days. Happy trails.

L.N.D.C.
a.k.a. the workin' boy

[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-09-2002).]

[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-09-2002).]

Loan Nuts!

I�m working too much to take part in this conversation for a day more at least, but this I have to say:

If anything, my respect and love for you is growing. Hatred is out of the question, now or in the future.

I may not agree with every word, I may not even like some of the "values" and evaluations they seemingly come from, but I respect them as they originate from thought and knowledge. Not from ignorance and ready made "oppinions".

From my point of view there are still "real men", willing to fight the needed battles, both in the old fashioned way and in new ways. That said, I must agree on your generalisation. We need more of them! In all kinds of positions, while the so called development is stumbling in the opposite direction. Society running away from itself, as it seems. Still we are very far from the scenario that caused this thread, but far too many of those who are aware that something is wrong, seem to go for the other extreme, believing it�s already too late. Protesting by saying we�re totally controlled, means surrender in my book. An "unmanly" standpoint, to use your terminology. Real men don�t give up. They refuse to believe in end game scenarios, they keep on fighting for what�s right, but AFTER having thought about it, not just because the so and so anti- movement told them it�s the trend of the week. Too much of that too. Too many people fighting the wrong wind-mills...

Ooops, ranting it seems...


Tool!

As much as I respect and support your committment, I must say that you should listen carefully to what Mr Nuts has to say about herding, as well as about honest helping hands.

I would say use whatever trickery it takes, except lying. Use whatever method that fits the task, except creating followers. Help them re-create themselves into sovereign individuals; men and women equal, but as different as they are - also as individuals.
With the slightest of luck they�ll leave you behind, but walking in a direction you would agree on, if not the one you hinted at...

As much as I would have liked to write another page or two, I must finish what I�m doing and then re-loan...sorry...re-load my batteries. Meanwhile, keep up the good work gentlemen...


All social opression is based on idolatry, and all idolatry is based on false belief.

FoxLeonard

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Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
If anything, my respect and love for you is growing. Hatred is out of the question, now or in the future.

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Well, thanks for your kind words, Fox. But be careful, lest you speak too soon. Most people hate me in the beginning, while a few stragglers hate me in the end. It is almost inevitable.

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I may not agree with every word, I many not even like some of the "values" and evaluations they seemingly come from but I respect them as they originate from thought and knowledge. Not from ignorant ready made "oppinions".

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Yes, I am a foreigner on my own planet; an alien soul in a meat suit; an iconoclast in face paint and big shoes. But, that's enough about me...

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From my point of view there are still "real men", willing to fight the needed battles, both in the old fashioned way and in new ways. That said, I must agree on your generalisation. We need more of them! In all kinds of positions, while the so called development is stumbling in the opposite direction. Society running away from itself, as it seems. Still we are very far from the scenario that caused this thread, but far too many of those who are aware that something is wrong, seem to go for the other extreme, believing it�s already too late. Protesting by saying we�re totally controlled, means surrender in my book. An "unmanly" standpoint, to use your terminology. Real men don�t give up. They refuse to believe in end game scenarios, they keep on fighting for what�s right, but AFTER having thought about it, not just because the so and so anti- movement told them it�s the trend of the week. Too much of that too. Too many people fighting the wrong wind-mills...

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Real men don't commit suicide either. Real men live to fight another day and only die when necessary---which is usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 72 to 85 years these days. But regardless, the real men are mostly dead, Fox. To be a real man in the West these days is to be arrested, sued, blackballed, and eventually murdered by some government "vice" squad. The ruling class have forced the common man into Matriarchy, and made the common man love Matriarchy, and indeed, take pride in Matriarchy. Healthy mammals do not participate in matriarchy, sir. Only healthy insects do. The higher the order of creature, the less matriarchy is exhibited. Except in Western Man. Western Man's Ruling Class have feminized him. It is not arguable. It is self apparent. It is in everyone's face. We western 'men' can like this new scenario, hate it, ignore it, whatever, but it does not change the fact that these new 'girly men' could never change a motherfucking thing about a motherfucking thing. (Note the use of the word:"motherfucker" here.) If Western men can discover his balls again, WITHOUT SHAME or APOLOGY, then maybe, just maybe---he has a chance to take control of his own society again.

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Ooops, ranting it seems...

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Go ahead, Fox. Rant! I love a good rant! ;0@

Well, that's all from me for about a week, Mr. Leonard. It has been with great pain that I have typed this post. You see, last night, I injured my hand; to be more precise, my index finger. Typing for me right now is very difficult and painful. I'll be back when I can.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. the one your mother warned you about




[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-10-2002).]

i refuse to read that until it's typed out in proper case

sorry to be nosy 123tool but what is this project you are working on?

Loan, I'm still thinking about your words, about how I feel about them and about how I will respond to them. I'll reply in a few days... (before you say it, I know you're not bothered, I'm just being courteous).

Govinda, the project I'm working on has many parts. It first required that I change my lifestyle; and actually that's been more difficult than I imagined - I've only been partially successful. The second required that I do my utmost to gather large quantities of disposable income... that is large in terms of how long it will take me to gather the resources I feel I require. There are several aspects to this section of my project. And the third part is (just to be unoriginal) a book, which could deliver a wake up call... if only it turns out that I can write; I strongly suspect that at the moment my skills are not finely tuned enough. We'll see. The fourth part of the project is to conduct an advertising campaign through the medium of television regarding my opinions of how we might become a better society. This last will really test my conviction. Because in all likelihood it will turn out to be an exercise in pissing money away. We'll see.

Concurrently I am trying to learn Mandarin, be a good teacher and participate in extra curricular activities through my employer. Largely I'm doing this so as not to get bored.

I have a feeling that to have any credibility with what I want to achieve I will have to learn Maori and sign language as well. This whole thing should keep me occupied and happy for years.

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Originally posted by Haddock:
i refuse to read that until it's typed out in proper case

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yOu DoN�t kNOw WhAt YOu�Re mIsSInG!

fOxlEoNaRd

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Originally posted by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN:
Yes, I am a foreigner on my own planet; an alien soul in a meat suit; an iconoclast in face paint and big shoes. But, that's enough about me...

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Could as well be me, in a sense... but with red fur and a big tail instead of paint.

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Real men don't commit suicide either. Real men live to fight another day and only die when necessary---which is usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 72 to 85 years these days. But regardless, the real men are mostly dead, Fox.

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I agree on those defintions as I did on the earlier ones. I and agree that they are MOSTLY dead!

In other words, I refuse to believe that we are too few to take on another fight, to defend our freedom and humanity. An uneven battle, but we have not been fully conquered yet. This conversation and totse in itself are small evidences of that. And I don�t really think this place is another mirror...

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To be a real man in the West these days is to be arrested, sued, blackballed, and eventually murdered by some government "vice" squad.

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Seemingly yes, but why must we who can see that give in to the fact?!

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The ruling class have forced the common man into Matriarchy, and made the common man love Matriarchy, and indeed, take pride in Matriarchy.

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How, when, what?!

I know you must have a good reason to say this, as you usually have, but if you mean Matriarchy, as in ruled by real women, I don�t recognize the world in that. If you mean that the men who rule, as well as those ruled, have become "feminized" and thus Matriarchy, I could understand, as much as I wouldn�t use that terminology.

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Healthy mammals do not participate in matriarchy, sir. Only healthy insects do. The higher the order of creature, the less matriarchy is exhibited.

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Yes, and still our thinkers are also part of what�s normal for the species called Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Therefore our thoughts beyond the natural order of things must be natural in themselves, if far from always right...

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Except in Western Man. Western Man's Ruling Class have feminized him. It is not arguable. It is self apparent. It is in everyone's face. We western 'men' can like this new scenario, hate it, ignore it, whatever, but it does not change the fact that these new 'girly men' could never change a motherfucking thing about a motherfucking thing. (Note the use of the word:"motherfucker" here.)

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Use noted and aknowledged, over and out!

But if they can�t change a motherfucking thing about a motherfucking thing, then those of us who are not motherfuckers, must topple the motherfuckers and DO NON-motherfucking things about as many mothefucking things as we can!

Yes, I know you say you�re not the revolutionary type. A kind of "lie" from you, for a change...

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If Western men can discover his balls again, WITHOUT SHAME or APOLOGY, then maybe, just maybe---he has a chance to take control of his own society again.

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Never lost mine, and I�m not the slightest ashamed of them either. That�s one reason I put my faith in exactly what you say, but I refuse to call it a "maybe".

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Go ahead, Fox. Rant! I love a good rant! ;0@

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Me too, and I was not oops-ing to apologise for the rant and what it said, but to the fact that I had promised myself to make a short reply and go to bed. Yes, real men do that too!

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Well, that's all from me for about a week, Mr. Leonard. It has been with great pain that I have typed this post. You see, last night, I injured my hand; to be more precise, my index finger. Typing for me right now is very difficult and painful.

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The risks of cLOwN sTyLE TyPInG, I SuPpOSe...

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I'll be back when I can.

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You�re allways welcome!

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Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. the one your mother warned you about

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My Mother warned me about dishonest people whith their aim on power; ignorant people with no guts, and more along the same lines.
I Have hard time getting any of her defintions and warnings fit you Mr Nuts.

As hinted at in that last paragraph, my Mother also has balls!

FoxLeonard

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Originally posted by 123Tool:
Largely I'm doing this so as not to get bored.

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I know a much better way to avoid boredom...

...but I don�t see it menitoned below either:

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I have a feeling that to have any credibility with what I want to achieve I will have to learn Maori and sign language as well.

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Wich means that this is not really true:

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This whole thing should keep me occupied and happy for years.

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...as it is not a WHOLE thing!

FoxLeonard

gLaD tO sEE YoU aRe sTiLL OuT ThErE, TooL aNd LeO. i'LL tALk MoRe nExT WeEk. i 'ReFuSe' tO TyPe aNy MoRe UnTiL I CaN tYpE In 'ThE PrOpEr CasE.'

L.N.D.C.
a.k.a. He Of ThE ManGLeD DiGiT

why do people need a reason for what they do; people survive in the world because they can, with da breedin'and creation, where do we all end up? why not be here and now...

--fades away

the again. "proper caps" is an illusion/allusion to beingness of something powerful of the beingness. why bother right? because its "normal" and easier to read,. as well as the fact that all people will gain enlightenment in the end, but for the momment we just needa bring down the weapons (which is America's capital-profit-gain from other countries.) *sigh* how do we change the conspiritor's minds...

off topic, who isn't. I want to see how the hell hollywood wishes to portray the new "neo," i mean he's the one right? so why can't they take out the machines... and make a little city on the sunny side of the moon?? rofl

http://www.coxnews.com/newsservice/stories/2002/1213-HOGTIED.html

Allright, here I am again, staring down a huge swathe of dialogue, wondering where I'm going end up THIS time. Congratulotions Loan, you've successfully rubbed your opinions into the skin of my moral framework. Your words resonate, they wiegh in with meaning and thought. I am impressed, and I will express this feeling by giving your post a hefty helpin' of consideration. I also happen to have a few spare hours...

I'll warn you now (and I know this doesn't come as a surprise to you) that largely I disagree with your solutions and perhaps some of the values that have nurtured them. But whatever, if we agreed with each other we probably wouldn't be capable of an exchange that would break large tracts of new ground. Well anyway, who knows...

First I should respond to my use of the word "herd" and the (perhaps) unhealthy connotations lying therein. At it's root, I believe this term is an emotive one for you, considering your belief structure. However, because of your feelings towards this word you have (rightfully) picked it out to show me where some of my assumptions may lie. This has been of great value to me; I would say I am in your debt but I won't due to the fact that this wouldn't be a simple turn of phrase for youself. I know this because you have told me you believe there is no such thing as a "good debt". So anyway, your line of reasoning develops valuable introspection in myself. Thank you.

Quoting myself :

"Molding and directing people (kind of like herding actually) is a more complex task."

"Directing others is not easy, and it is extremely interesting due to the possibilities it presents."

"I believe people can be herded and the reason I believe they can be herded is because I can see them being herded right now."

"I have been granted (through colossal good luck) a massively advantaged position in my world. I have a responsiblity to share this advantage, not to selfishly gather it to myself. My responsibility comes from my value system. It is a requirement I can't help but place upon myself. I yam what I yam. Furthermore, I am not unaware of the fact that my value system is a direct descendant of the Christian Church's. I don't consider this a flaw, but a strength."

As a Christian you hold that, "God has and is the moral and spiritual authority necessary for "herding". He is the Good Shepard, after all." Here you have (and I doubt it is unwitting) touched upon the larger problem.

I HAVE NO MORAL OR SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. I am an athiest Loan, I can not, within the context of this belief, answer to your God. Any more than you can answer to me. Nor, (as it turns out) does the shape of my manipulation of other people require that they listen to me tell them what's right and wrong. Because I (intellectually) can not show clearly that these things exist.

Can you imagine how often I have thought how much simpler my life would be if I could accept the moral guidance of a higher authority? If only... ahhhh, no no no, it is my destiny to wade through a universe implacable in it's neutrality. My mind stares aghast at this (literally)unwholesome scenario.

But, I will not let my fear of the unknown drive me towards making (theistic) metaphysical claims. The vast, vast majority of my universe I will never know. And that's ok, because I have... something else. A value system, which I recognise is a faith like any other; why? Because I can not essentially justify it using a totally rational framework of ideas. It's just a bunch of stuff that I like.

HOWEVER, as it happens, most of the rest of the world have similar motivations. I know this and I use this information to attempt to create a world I am more comfortable with. This is the nature of my deception. My dishonesty. Because most of the rest of the world would not accept the beliefs I have outlined above. That I don't believe right and wrong exist but that I can't help live like I do. And the belief that the rest of you can't help but do the same. We can't help but be the thing that we are. We can't help but have the beliefs that we do.

So, I ask questions like "Do you like rape?" If the answer comes back to me that no in fact the respondant does not like this event then we can begin to work against that scenario on the basis of such an agreement. It's just that on my side I know that it is statistically likely that the respondant believes that this thing is wrong, objectively and independantly of the existence of Homo Sapiens. And I don't. Am I being dishonest? Have I outright lied? No, as far as my value system goes, no. If there is a God then so be it. I will accept the consequences... (as if I would have any alternative if God existed).

So, in regards to the issue of whether I am superior to others or not, the answer is yes I am... in a superior position to many other people. I have love, (It took Fox more than one attempt to wake me up to this priority AT ALL TIMES) leisure time, education, excellent health, demanding and stimulating work and above (nearly, Fox) all else I have a purpose. I have a purpose I invented for myself. These things are a set of luxuries not present in the vast majority of the rest of the world. I am a living embodiment of priviledge.

Now as to whether I have created this purpose due my holding of an over inflated sense of self, well... of course I have an over inflated sense of self. If I even for a moment were to 100% comprehend the insignificant reality of myself compared to that of the universe I imagine I would be left a crumpled mess on the floor. My sense of self worth is a necessary shield I hold against this world. So far, it has held firm through a great deal, but then again, maybe I have yet to experience true suffering. Maybe time will tell.

So, I will do what is necessary to create a better world. I have listened and thought through what you are trying to make obvious to me. I stand now firmer in my conviction. By my value system it only makes sense for me to take responsibility for those who are not as fortunate as I. I recognise the huge potential of Homo Sapiens. To become ever more useful to ourselves.

And maybe it will take some harsh language to vividly describe how our world is right now. I believe people can be herded and the reason I believe they can be herded is because I can see them being herded right now. So I will attempt a course of action whereby I will convince people to give up the sheep mentality of rampant consumerism, for instance, in favour of a structure of virtue; a structure that weak minds may (initially) only follow because everyone else is. Weak minds might follow this course up until the point whereby they become strong. Up until the point whereby they will fulfill their potential. I take no pleasure in pointing out the existence of weak minds in our world. (I make no generalisations as to exactly how many there are... I just don't know). These minds won't ever reach their potential without express help. Without (up until a certain point) being told what to do. If at any point they begin thinking for themselves then that's bloody fantastic. If they don't, then I am forced to step in and try to divert their energy away from the moral authority of Gucci or Prada or Nike or McDonalds (for instance).

That's the world I think we live in. One driven by the moral (yes I don't use the word lightly) standards of material possesions. This is insane. I won't tolerate it. Because toleration in this case is passive acceptance.

As to whether these problems have come about due to the matriarchical nature of the Western World... well, frankly I don't think we should label these problems as being ones of gender roles.

"Healthy mammals do not participate in matriarchy, sir."

No, nor do most of them attempt to climb mountains, dive into oceans or fly outside of our atmosphere. Your words regarding "Real men" resonate. They certainly do. But feminization means something else to me. It is an ideal regarding the entirely healthy reappraisal of socially engineered roles. I am a kindergarten teacher. How many "Real men" held such a position in the 1930's? And yet, it is my professional opinion that if more Men (Capital used consciously) were to become involved in the education of early childhood and upwards then many of the problems we both recognise in our societies (such as for instance, the escalating underachievement of boys in our current schooling system) would be solved. You don't have to agree with me in this case but the simple fact is that I probably know more about this than you do. If that's not the case then I'd be happy to have you point out the flaw in my reasoning.

So there you have it, I apologise for this post spiralling out of control. Perhaps your worst fears have been realised, the existence of an unabashedly egocentric godless man might just outright disgust you. Loan, considering the virulent rhetoric spewed out above I will, at least, try to assure you that I will strive at all times to do what is right and good (regardless of my objective feelings towards rightness and goodness), I will not knowingly create pain and suffering in this world. And I doubt I will unknowingly create these things.

"Why should the Godless man blush?"

I will make the claim (and I haven't read close to all of your posts) that this is the most insightful question you have asked on this site. And there's no simple answer to it.

My hat is off to you sir, you have successfully prompted the most complicated and thought invested post I have yet made. I thank you for this opportunity.

P.S.

"Well, Tool, NZ is about the size of many counties in the U.S. We have local municipal governments that I have to deal with that are the size of N.Z. I also have that huge behemoth in Washington D.C. to negotiate, too. By your logic, I would have more experience with BOTH scenarios."

Yes, that would be true if a concept of state was the same thing as a concept of municipality. Which it isn't.

"But that's your logic, not mine."

Ok.

"I think we are both capable of talking intelligently about these subjects regardless of where we're from."

I was under the impression that we were talking intelligently... and I don't think a frank appraisal of how where we come from is affecting our judgement and value system disqualifies us from such intelligent talk.

"Oh come on Tool! Take a stand! HONK! HONK! HONK! ;0)"

Ok, I believe concepts of State are largely flawed in the majority of people (including myself) in that they have less relation to reality than we think they do. Therefore I won't compare two holders of different nationalities and their respective concepts of State and say that the one is superior to the other. They're both false.

Thanks again Loan! I hope your finger heals well and quickly, and please, you should know that I don't expect a huge post on a par to the rambling one above. Again, I apologise for it's length!

Have a great day!

Tool.

You require moral authority to do what you aim to do. By your own words, you have annointed yourself with that 'moral authority', just like Kissinger, and just like McDonalds. Such self-annointing means nothing. Because you "see herding going on" as you say, does not make "herding" an admirable thing. Yes, herding does go on. Hitler herded people to the ovens. Advertiser's herd weak minded people to their products. And you seek to herd people to your own ideals; stuff that you say "I like" and to you that is its own justification. All I ask you is this: Who really benefits from such a scheme? Do they? Do you? By what standard? Just the standards of "Tool likes it"? I am reminded of an old saying that goes thus: "Egotism is the disease that exhilarates the victim but sickens his friends."

Because you are from New Zealand, or a school teacher does not give you expert status in the discussion in order to prove your point. For example, you or I do not need to actually be on fire to know that being on fire hurts. Again, your appeals to your own authority based on your location in NZ or your profession are lost to me. For some topics they would be useful, but not the discussion at hand.

In regards to the feminization of men, and the vulgarization of women in Western society: it is not natural simply because it is...happening. By that criteria NOTHING unnatural EVER happens, therefore, you MUST be satisfied with EVERYTHING you see, hear, and experience, BECAUSE you are seeing, hearing, and experiencing it. That means rape is natural. That means mass murderers are natural. That means disease is natural. That means Kissinger is natural. Or even McDonalds. The word "natural" is a very, very, deep word; filled to the brim with meaning. God is SUPERNATURAL, literally---MORE NATURAL, if you go to root meanings...

Of course, on all of the above---we disagree, Tool. But then, we both knew that already. Where do we go from here? Nowhere, I suspect. If two people disagree on certain terms, they can only travel together or converse together so far. There is a huge gulf between our understandings that can only be bridged by one of us abandoning, to some degree, our own position; you in yourself, or mine in God. I see neither of us prepared to budge anytime soon.

Fox, I will get to you later. I am very busy at the moment.

L.N.D.C.


[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-16-2002).]

Hi Fox,

Got to make this a quick reply!

First of all, I want to say that I always get the feeling that you think that I advocate 'giving up' or 'giving in' to the 'Grand Conspiracy' and conspirators, and that I believe that the only thing to do is do nothing. That is not so, sir. There are many things we can do in our daily lives, and in our own spheres of influence to make the world a better one. However, I do not beleive that you, I, or any other mortal can purge the world of its inherent ills, or the inherent, perennial flaws in human nature. Flood, disease, famine, greed, envy, lying---they're with humanity always, until the end of the Age. Again, that doesn't mean that I believe it is impossible to improve the world we live in, it just means that I don't recognize ALL THINGS as possible to change by man. However, I am, indeed---no revolutionary. I seek to overturn no government. Nor do I gather followers about me in an effort to change the values of my fellow man through blood or numbers. I know exactly what I am. and what I'm not. You charge me with lying. Well, I, like any other stinking sinner, have done much lying in my life---but not this time. I'm a clown with a keyboard and a gift of communication. That's all.

Matriarchy. You are right. I was vague. The matriarchy I am refering to is societal. Man is no longer the king of his home. The culture that is being foisted on Western Man by Advertisers and Government agencies is one that puts the man in an inferior position to the woman. Hollywood promotes the same ideas. It is everywhere you look in the West. It is indoctrination. It is creating feminized generations of young men. They are soft physically, and sick mentally because they are ashamed of their balls. Those that rebel turn 'criminal'. The people who rule the world love this. The common man is too busy fighting his wife and kids for stability in his own home to ever concentrate on who is ruling the corporations, governments, and religious institutions. It is classic "divide and conquer". The same thing goes on here in the States with race. The media and government keep the blacks, whites,and Hispanics at each other's throats continually and because of that it is impossible to see what is really going on in government. I first spotted this trend towards Matriarchy in advertisers. If the advertisers could just seperate the men from control of the money, then anything is possible! Remember, before the word 'customer' there was the word 'patron'. So the advertisers began some 'social experimentation' in their adverts, just like today they 'imply' to young children on TV that if their partents REALLY love them, they'll buy them Toy X, Y, or Z. I could go on, and on about this subject but I just don't have the time today, Fox. We'll speak more about it later. Also, do not think I hate women. I am a great lover and admirer of the fair sex. But again, I think femininity looks good on women, and it is simply crippling to a man.

Also, I am glad that you still have your balls. I have mine, too. Protect them, comrade!

quote:

---

Originally posted by FoxLeonard:
My Mother warned me about dishonest people whith their aim on power; ignorant people with no guts, and more along the same lines.
I Have hard time getting any of her defintions and warnings fit you Mr Nuts.

As hinted at in that last paragraph, my Mother also has balls!

FoxLeonard

---

Your mother is, I'm sure, a classy and intelligent lady to have raised a son like you. And yes, these days---that does take balls---so to speak.

Over and out for a while. I have a very busy week ahead of me.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. "a good eBayer"


[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-16-2002).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN:
[B]Tool.

You require moral authority to do what you aim to do. By your own words, you have annointed yourself with that 'moral authority', just like Kissinger, and just like McDonalds. [B]

I understand. I accept my technique is a necessary evil. A lesser evil.

[B]Such self-annointing means nothing. Because you "see herding going on" as you say, does not make "herding" an admirable thing. [B]

I agree.

[B]Yes, herding does go on. Hitler herded people to the ovens. [B]

And I would have gone very far to have stopped him. Including "herding" people another way.

[B]Advertiser's herd weak minded people to their products. And you seek to herd people to your own ideals; stuff that you say "I like" and to you that is its own justification. [B]

That's right.

[B]All I ask you is this: Who really benefits from such a scheme? Do they? Do you? [B]

I do. You do. We do.

[B]By what standard? [B]

Mine. Yours. Ours.

[B]Just the standards of "Tool likes it"?[B]

Not just my standard of what's right and wrong. But probably yours too.

[B]I am reminded of an old saying that goes thus: "Egotism is the disease that exhilarates the victim but sickens his friends."[B]

Good point.

DO Godless men blush? Yes, we do. Am I selfish? No, I am not. Egotism is not (necessarily) selfishness.

I believe there is a long way to go in this conversation. If you have the stomache for it... let alone the time! (I thank you for replying to my last post, I know you're busy).

I hope you're happy and well!

quote:

---

Originally posted by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN:
Hi Fox,

Got to make this a quick reply!

---

Hi Loan!

Nice to see your hand is well enough for typing, if not in "the proper case" perhaps.
Or perhaps that too, as you seem to be doing this off duty, for the time being, rather than within your busy work schedule - as a Clown I mean.

Wich brings me to another excuse for yet another delayed reply.

A busy fox discussing the destiny of the world with a Clown off duty. No risk that those reading this should believe this to be just another conspiracy topic, I guess...

Wich bring me to this:

quote:

---

First of all, I want to say that I always get the feeling that you think that I advocate 'giving up' or 'giving in' to the 'Grand Conspiracy' and conspirators, and that I believe that the only thing to do is do nothing.

---

No Sir, that is certainly not what I belive about you! But you are, from time to time, in habit of pointing out how it is and always has been. When so i take the opportunity to let my "calls for action" bounce from there. A kind of "deliberate misunderstanding", aimed at others, i.e. I would have left most of that out, had this been a private discussion, rather than a public one...

If I have thereby abused your words, or put words in your mouth that didn�t originate from there, I�m sorry. I�ll try not to overdo it in the future...

Tool is not the only one here, who�s on a mission, if you excuse the expression...

quote:

---

That is not so, sir. There are many things we can do in our daily lives, and in our own spheres of influence to make the world a better one.

---

I agree! And i especially agree that we can do a lot in our daily lives, without even widening or changing our - small - spheres of influence. We don�t have to become presidents, or even politicians, or members of "alternative organisations" to get something done for the better.

quote:

---

However, I do not beleive that you, I, or any other mortal can purge the world of its inherent ills, or the inherent, perennial flaws in human nature. Flood, disease, famine, greed, envy, lying---they're with humanity always, until the end of the Age.

---

I believe that what is created by mortals, could be changed by mortals!

Some is for sure part of our nature, some IS nature in itself. What is beyond that could be changed. Some has gone on for so long that it can�t be ultimately cured, but even that could be slightly changed for the better. All that has not gone too far, could be even more changed. Slowly and stumblingly, but still. and to do that, is to live! No "sacrifice" needed, so to speak.

Wich seems to be somewhat in agreement with the qoute below:

quote:

---

Again, that doesn't mean that I believe it is impossible to improve the world we live in, it just means that I don't recognize ALL THINGS as possible to change by man.

---

Neither do I...

quote:

---

However, I am, indeed---no revolutionary. I seek to overturn no government. Nor do I gather followers about me in an effort to change the values of my fellow man through blood or numbers. I know exactly what I am. and what I'm not. You charge me with lying. Well, I, like any other stinking sinner, have done much lying in my life---but not this time.

---

No, that was a sloppy chice of word by me, if in the context that I pointed out your honesty. My sincere excuses, Sir!

What I wanted to point out was that you hadn�t been here, posting and discussing, if it hadn�t been for the fact that you want to reach people and tell them what the world looks like and that it still can be changed. In that context "revolutionary" meant someone aiming for change/pointing out possibilities of change. Nothing less, nothing more...

Or, as you say:

quote:

---

I'm a clown with a keyboard and a gift of communication. That's all.

---

And I�m a fox with the same kind of gift and equipment, I guess...

quote:

---

Matriarchy. You are right. I was vague. The matriarchy I am refering to is societal. Man is no longer the king of his home. The culture that is being foisted on Western Man by Advertisers and Government agencies is one that puts the man in an inferior position to the woman. Hollywood promotes the same ideas. It is everywhere you look in the West. It is indoctrination.

---

They call it "equality", and i would very much agree on equality, where possbile at all. But you�re unfortunately right, it�s clandestine, mental castration, creating what you say below:

quote:

---

It is creating feminized generations of young men. They are soft physically, and sick mentally because they are ashamed of their balls. Those that rebel turn 'criminal'.

---

And the women turn away from the "ball-less" even if they are "offically" supposed to like them better, wich makes a spiraling effect on both women and men, and family...

quote:

---

The people who rule the world love this.

---

Yes, and still i have a feeling that they have somewhat stumbled into their own trap; lost control of it, in a sense...

quote:

---

The common man is too busy fighting his wife and kids for stability in his own home to ever concentrate on who is ruling the corporations, governments, and religious institutions. It is classic "divide and conquer". The same thing goes on here in the States with race. The media and government keep the blacks, whites,and Hispanics at each other's throats continually and because of that it is impossible to see what is really going on in government.

---

A lot of similar things going on here in Europe too, I�m afraid. Non-issues made huge and real issues not even mentioned.

quote:

---

I first spotted this trend towards Matriarchy in advertisers. If the advertisers could just seperate the men from control of the money, then anything is possible! Remember, before the word 'customer' there was the word 'patron'. So the advertisers began some 'social experimentation' in their adverts, just like today they 'imply' to young children on TV that if their partents REALLY love them, they'll buy them Toy X, Y, or Z. I could go on, and on about this subject but I just don't have the time today, Fox. We'll speak more about it later.

---

I would not call it all "matriarchy" or even aiming at what I agreed on above, but i agree that there is a regular trend looking like what you say. I just wonder how much of it that is in actual control of some controllers...

And unfortunately I also have to agree that I don�t have time for the 45min rant that now appeared in my head...

quote:

---

Also, do not think I hate women. I am a great lover and admirer of the fair sex. But again, I think femininity looks good on women, and it is simply crippling to a man.

---

I agree, adding that we men for sure shall show our, so called, "female" aspects of personality, wich is NOT the same as being feminine!

quote:

---

Also, I am glad that you still have your balls. I have mine, too. Protect them, comrade!

---

I am protecting them, as well as "using" them to protect others, when needed...

quote:

---

Your mother is, I'm sure, a classy and intelligent lady to have raised a son like you. And yes, these days---that does take balls---so to speak.

---

She is, and thanks!

The latter part is true, but in the same time it suggests to me that you might think I�m a bit younger than I actually am...

She was lucky to start raising me before the "feminisation trend".

quote:

---

Over and out for a while. I have a very busy week ahead of me.

---

The same here, I�m afraid...

FoxLeonard not just another revolutionary

Originally posted by Tool123

quote:

---

I believe there is a long way to go in this conversation. If you have the stomache for it... let alone the time! (I thank you for replying to my last post, I know you're busy).

---

Well, Tool. You will have to show me where. I have stated my case. I have restated it. I am not going to keep repeating myself. I am capable of amicably disagreeing with someone and letting it go. If there is indeed new territory to cover, then surely I will discuss it with you. However, though I find you to be a very polite, and capable person, and pleasant company---you argue from a position that I find, to be frank---noxious, arrogant, and yes---deluded. Now, I am sure that if we reverse things, and are honest, we will find that you believe me to be somewhat deluded also. It is only natural and only fair. This is not an insult to each other, it is simply a very real impasse between our two different world views being communicated. We speak the same language, but the words we speak mean different things to us.

Don't think that I'm cross with you, Tool. I'm not in the least. I think more highly of you than you might suspect. Believe it or not, I see some of myself in you---some of my younger self, my athiestic self, too. I don't say this to patronize you. I respect you as a human being, regardless of where we differ or our ages.

Nevertheless, for this particular conversation to continue, you are going to have to show me an avenue I haven't repeated over and over to comment upon. Otherwise, we are stuck in a quagmire of "What Tool Wants" vs. "Loan Nut's View of a Spiritual, Higher and Objective Reality", and that---we've done. Why bore ourselves or others with it any further?

But hey, if you want to go somewhere else, in this convo, or approach it from a different angle, then I'm game if you are. But only as time permits.

quote:

---

I hope you're happy and well!

---

Well, that is mutual, Tool. And from the pictures I've seen of NZ, it must be pretty easy for you to be happy and well on your island. Beautiful place, NZ.

L.N.D.C.




[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-18-2002).]

Fox Leonard,

This is going to be short. Very short. So short, in fact---I must do it tomorrow sometime. Its bedtime here at the Nuts household. Time for Father Nuts to dominate Mother Nuts.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. the dominant clown that women want

Hi Loan! Thanks for your thoughts (again), this conversation has fascinated me and if it were to end right now I'd feel like a better person for having conducted it. So thanks. Your experience shows, I can only respect the kind of person you are. I certainly can't feel animosity to your broad moral world view, the fact is that a universe where God exists is a better one than the universe which doesn't include such a Presence.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN:

Nevertheless, for this particular conversation to continue, you are going to have to show me an avenue I haven't repeated over and over to comment upon. Otherwise, we are stuck in a quagmire of "What Tool Wants" vs. "Loan Nut's View of a Spiritual, Higher and Objective Reality", and that---we've done. [QUOTE]

It's been a pleasure Loan.

[QUOTE] But hey, if you want to go somewhere else, in this convo, or approach it from a different angle, then I'm game if you are. But only as time permits.

---

The only place I was trying to take the conversation was an attempt by me to reconcile my intent and manner with your moral world. But, whatever, as you say; there's no point boring anyone!

Goodonyamate!

P.s. I'm actually in Taiwan at the moment, it's been a while since I've seen my "beloved" homeland!

Fair enough, Tool. I'm glad we had the conversation. I hope, at the very least, that it showed anyone who cared to look that two people can honestly disagree about religion or politics without drawing swords.
That you didn't 'lash out' so to speak, at many of my very, very, blunt criticisms of your position speaks better of your morals than anything. I just hope that you knew that I was never trying to offend. I was simply giving you the blunt honesty that one person gives another he respects.

Fox Leonard. You said:

quote:

---

If I have thereby abused your words, or put words in your mouth that didn�t originate from there, I�m sorry. I�ll try not to overdo it in the future...

---

Hey. Its cool. You're talking to the whole world. I'm talking to you. Misunderstandings like that are bound to happen from time to time.

quote:

---

Tool is not the only one here, who�s on a mission, if you excuse the expression...

---

Hey, I'm on a mission, too. Its to die correctly.

quote:

---

What I wanted to point out was that you hadn�t been here, posting and discussing, if it hadn�t been for the fact that you want to reach people and tell them what the world looks like and that it still can be changed. In that context "revolutionary" meant someone aiming for change/pointing out possibilities of change. Nothing less, nothing more...

---

Since when is it considered 'revolutionary' to have a conversation in public? Are things truly that bad? You've just made me feel like an optimist! Thanks!

quote:

---

And I�m a fox with the same kind of gift and equipment, I guess...

---

False humility! Come on, Fox! You KNOW that you have the gift of communication, despite your penchant for the esoteric. We all know that you possess, as we say in the States,"The Gift Of Gab."

In regards to my theories on matriarchy, you said, concerning women's reaction:

quote:

---

And the women turn away from the "ball-less" even if they are "offically" supposed to like them better, wich makes a spiraling effect on both women and men, and family..."

---

I couldn't have said it better myself. I said that the people who rule the world, or "The Ruling Class" as I usually refer to them---love this. And you replied with:

quote:

---

Yes, and still i have a feeling that they have somewhat stumbled into their own trap; lost control of it, in a sense...

---

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. The Ruling Class has its way of insulating its offspring from the world it has degraded with its social experiments. But even if their offspring grow up to be drug abusing, dominatrix loving fraternity boys, they will still get to do it behind ivy covered walls, while the Military-Industrial-Complex can still supply enough feminized, but particulary brutish young men to box the ears of the common man. The real problem comes when this last generation of Kissingers and 'Poppy' Bushes are gone---do their idiot sons behind ivory walls have the intelligence to keep the whole charade going? Well, I don't think the elders think that their idiot sons can pull it off. And that's where computers, machinery, and a video camera in every shower stall comes in. These old geezers want to rule in perpetuity by leaving a buzzing network of weaponized machines in the wake of their pathetic little lives. Sound fantastic? Yeah it does to me too. I'm only half in jest, though. I really do believe that the Ruling Class wants to have a computer chip in every brain or wrist...to give all us serfs a name and number of THEIR choosing. Without which, we will not be able to buy or sell. Hey...they come right out with it sometimes on commercials. I heard one financial commercial say:"One day...there will be no paper money." They're getting pretty bold about it. The writing is on the wall, and it was written with their stubby, perfumed index fingers.

In regards to divide and conquer strategies foisted on America by stirring up racial hatreds:

quote:

---

A lot of similar things going on here in Europe too, I�m afraid. Non-issues made huge and real issues not even mentioned.

---

Yes, I imagined there was. If we really want to know what the 'news' is these days, we common men must learn to focus on what's NEVER said. That's where the real story is. Which brings me to your next quote about my use of the word 'matriarchy':

quote:

---

I would not call it all "matriarchy" or even aiming at what I agreed on above, but i agree that there is a regular trend looking like what you say. I just wonder how much of it that is in actual control of some controllers...

---

That the common man in the West lives in a miserable matriarchy is one of those newsworthy events that are never mentioned, indeed, we moderns barely have words for it. I have chosen the only word I know to call it: Matriarchy. Every society is Patriarchal or Matriarchal. There is no 'in between' realm to be found among human societies, past or present. Either women hold the seat of power in a home, or the man does. It is sad to say, but these days: 'that' is news.

Next you added this caveat:

quote:

---

I agree, adding that we men for sure shall show our, so called, "female" aspects of personality, wich is NOT the same as being feminine!

---

I know what you are saying, Fox, but I must in the end disagree because of your choice of words. Why in the world should things like 1)Communication 2)Love 3)knowledge or even 4)Gardening be considered "FEMININE" aspects of a personality? This is more of the same old 'Divide and Conquer' game to my thinking, whether it be by Rockefeller-funded psychologists, or freelancers of mental confusion.

Lastly, in regards to my complimenting your mother on raising such a son in this day and age, you said:

quote:

---

The latter part is true, but in the same time it suggests to me that you might think I�m a bit younger than I actually am...

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Ok, because it is the Christmas holiday, and for once, I am in very good spirits about the matter, I will reveal to you(and Tool, too) my true age. I am not as old as you or he thinks I am either. Often I speak in terms of 'my younger days' because I do 'feel' ancient. I was a very mature child and studied philosophy, religion, and life in general from a very early age. I often joked to people when I was in my 20s that I was 40 years old when I was born. Today, I am 33 years old, approaching my real 40th birthday. My guess is that you are probably a couple of years older than me, Fox, and Tool is probably about 25 or 26. That's my guess. It's also my guess that with a few exceptions everyone else on this website is 13 years old or at least---aspiring to be.

Well, I probably won't be posting on Totse agian until after the holidays. Merry Christmas to you Fox and Tool and anyone else who cares to.

Loan Nuts Da Clown
a.k.a. The One Who Took The 'Pagan' Out of Christmas




[This message has been edited by LOAN NUTS DA CLOWN (edited 12-18-2002).]

Loan!

Just some fast comments if you�re still around, before going for non Pagan Christmas Hollidays with Mrs Nuts...


Yes you are an optimist, even when describing the world as dark grey. And not (only) because the world has gone "that bad". Someone once said:

If the world seems to be getting nastier, your ignorance is increasing!

Could be read two ways (at least) of course.

---------------------

I had a reason for saying:

"so called 'female' aspects of [male] personality".

Had I believed that definition to be accurate, I would simply have written the politically correct:

our female aspects...

Wich means your disagreement became an agreement. Not the first time we take a detour to agreement, and surely not the last...

By the way, are we - you and I - freelancers of mental re-confusion?! Just a thought...

-------------------------------

That Matriarchy will soon be Technocracy in a literal sense, if you�re right...

Will people (un)wittingly walk into that trap too, or will we have the ultimate Civil War, in the Western World instead?

If so, will that bring victory to the, so called, Radical Islamists; i.e. the Perverted Islamists.

Questions for the new year and, let us hope, NOT for a "New Age"...

--------------------------------

Yes, I must admit I beleived you to be my age. An admittance that makes no sense without saying: Take your age and add the age of the average totseite (as we believe it to be) and you got my age. If that is "a couple" of years older in your book, I don�t know, but you were looking in the right direction...

Merry Christmas to you, Loan, and to Mrs Nuts, of course!

FoxLeonard




[This message has been edited by FoxLeonard (edited 12-18-2002).]

fOx LeOnArd:

i aM aRoUnD tO rEaD YoUr RePLy. SoRRy, bUt lAcK oF timE ForBiDs mE FrOm WriTinG a LonG AnD tHoUgHtFuLL ResPoNsE. HaPPy HolIdAyS!

LoAn NuTs Da ClOWn
a.k.a. tHe WoRkInG BoY

why do you write LiKe ThIs? its really annoying