Something that seems to be going overlooked (or I'm just not seeing it) is discussion of using disassociatives to help kick opiate and other addictions. 2nd plateau/medium doses of Dextromethorphan have been given to recovering Heroin addicts to help them cope with withdrawl. Logic dictates that an oxy addict could use DXM or maybe even ketamine (possibly PCP) to help kick their addiction [*cough* subvertpunk]

I personally used DXM to help kick my short lived addiction to d-amphetamines (whether this was a medical or psychological aid is still unknown to me)

If there has already been a topic on this sorry, I just thought it should be brought to further attention for some totse members.

i havent seen a discussion of this nature, and i have the feeling that the reason is because a.) none of these kids care and b.) becuase none of them really look into such things.

but it is an interesting theory, sorta like ibogaine and cocain addicts or alcoholics. ive read a bit about M.A.P.S. using ibogaine in a lab setting to treat the addictions above, and find it quite interesting, although i think that a dependant person is ultimately at risk to be dependant on anything, so the treating a drug addiction with drugs theory is somewhat strange to me. not being familliar with addiction from a first person perspective i cant really comment on anything other than what ive read, and i havent actually seen any data that has been gathered from M.A.P.S. research, just read that they are doing these projects. i suspect that they want to keep their results private until they have some concrete evidence to show the government and public.

Actually DXM is useful for that. It has a whole bunch of strange properties. I'm convinced it's actually a powerful antidepressant too. That's from my own experience, but i've also read something about it on erowid too.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq/dxm_general_info.shtml#toc.4.15.2

[This message has been edited by confuzious (edited 11-10-2002).]

I have heard of people using DEX for detox but i wasnt sure if it was a myth or what. Does anyone have any research or pages to offer on this topic? I mean i would like to know how it helps you kick? Does it like take dope sickness away or does it supress craving or what? Another thing is i need to work i can probably work dope sick more than i can work fucked on disassociatives, but maybe im wrong since ive never done dex.

Enadoline, a powerful K-opioid agonist was researched a few years back for its promissing opiate-withdrawl qualities. Well, they halted the research on it when they found that higher doses it had very strange and bizzare 'pyschotomimetic' (severely hallucinogenic) and dissociative properties on human subjects.

After spending over 10 years trying to find out how salvia divinorum effects the brain and which receptors it binds to, Daniel Seibert and a body of chemists just recently found that salvinorin A (salvia's only psychotropic component) is an extremly strong K-opioid agonist....just like Enadoline.

Scientists are now blown away by the fact that the K-opioid receptors play a huge role in human perception of life and reality. These drugs seem to dissociate ons's self from ego and the ego may play the pivotal role in substance addiction. I.E, not just a chemical "quick-fix", but an actual restructuring of the thought process through a change of perception to give an individual the power to heal himself.

Sadly, this is beyond mainstream Western medicine. They simply can't understand how changing one's perception of himself and life in general through a hallucinogenic journey could possibly be beneficial.

The march is now on to make salvinorin illegal in the US and this will halt most research on it. (DEA schedule 1 means it has no medical function). Enadoline research has lost all funding and has been scrapped. Ibogaine has also been declared illegal shedule 1 and is rarely studied.

It's funny, anything that shows real promise to help opiate-dependent people is summarily declared illegal.....makes you wonder.

I dont see how replacing one habbit forming drug with another is actually gonna do anything. Get some damn will power pussy. Sheez it will help you a lot more then trying to take different drugs to heal the effects over another drug.

noone ruins a good discussion about new research and science like an opinonated newbie. now shut the fuck up and open your mind.

Sorry to go off topic here but its just for a second. You are an idiot and im not a pussie. I bet if i knew in real life i would tear the holy shit out of you, but instead i can only listen to your 13 year old punk ass comments on a forum. Have you ever been addicted to opiates? Its not so easy to just quit, and its not fuckn will power ypou moron. I can deal with the cravings myself i just cant take or afford to be sick and cracking up mentally!

Now back on topic. So this is cool ill buy a bottle of dex and got 2n plateu with it. But what i want to know is how it effects being dope sick? Im thinking it does nothing for that right? Its just more to help you mentally? If so thats a still great next time i have 72 hours off i will just be sick like a man and instead of blowing on hour 36 like usuall (this is when i get mentally the wost) i will just drink some syup. Tonight i wiill experiment i guess for a first plateu so i can make sure i dont have that liver diffecincy! thats the last fuckn thing i need is to be dope sick and in agonizing hell becuase i was to stupid to make sure dex would mix with my body. I hope dex works though , id really rather get k or something but aww well ill live with what i can get and see if it helps. If it does you bet your asses i will be writing a file on using dex to withdrawal from opiates and my personal experince.

personally, i'm stocking up on salvia now. In a few months, its profitability will greatly increase. funny how DEA scheduling can make me money. I can't say i've ever had a real addiction... maybe briefly with amphetamines, or partially to nicotine, but nothing i couldn't kick. i would imagine that treating an addictive drug with a drug that is not compellingly habit forming would be quite effective, especially with a perception-modifying and introspection-inducing drug such as ibogaine or salvia... i wouldn't suggest DXM or any other dissociative though, just because of the olney's lesions. if you're looking to give it a try, order some salvia while you still can and read about it intensively.

Subvertpunk-
Dextromethorphan has properties and ways of changing you that are unique, unlike any other drug. Universally it relieves you of pain, and leaves you with odd peak and post ingestion psychological and physical effects. One of which is an end to psychological craving of other chemicals.
It's indescribable really, but I know this has happened to me. No, you wont be able to go to work or do much other than trip and philosophize to yourself on DXM, but taking it in the evening (around 5pm or so), tripping all evening and night, then sleeping from maybe midnight to whenever you wake up will leave you with the unique 'afterglow' of dxm, when you feel it in your blood but can still function normally. I recommend you try this with maybe 450-600mg of DXM depending on your weight. It may be the help you need.

Nieztsche (nice name btw, aside from the slight spelling error )-
That info is invaluble, thanks for posting. I hope it's put to use or passed on to people who can.

Nuglobe-
You are an idiot. Dextromethorphan Hbr and its metabolite Dextrorphan are non-habit forming, and are very unique in the entheogen/drug world. Understand how drug addiction works, what it effects, and why the people are addicts. Then think abotu what other substances do and how they can aid an addict.

Junglist-
eh I too am a noobie here, a high post count does little to hide personal ignorance (I won't name names.. :rolleyes)

Dopeman-
In reality the disassociative quality is what makes these drugs non-habit forming and helpful in kicking addiction. on a regular and day-in-day-out basis no, disassociatives wont be effective or feasible as a possiblity though for short term use to help kick the addiction they have been said to be effective.
Funny you bring up Olney's Legions, though. Keep in mind the only evidence that Olney's Legions exist is through limited research on mice, and the idea that these same holes can form in the brains of humans is 100% theory.

Though, to be blunt, you will make yourself (in some cases reversibly) retarded with disassociatives if you use them regularly.

im gonna go down to town and pick up some smokes and some gummies and some DEX after dinner. I was thinking of giving it a wurl tonight, i have to work att 4 tommrow and have the opiates i need to get me through work. What would be a good dose to take, itll probably be around 11, and i dont want some major hangover tommrow! nor do i wanna be up all night. I way 155 and am 6'7, im willing to do the math of mg/kg conversion on my own but can i get away with a low 2nd plateu tonight?

6'7" and 155? You're one skinny guy. A 4 oz. or Maximum Stength is about 350 mg. At ~70 kilos that would put you at 5 mg/kg which is a great 2nd plateau amount.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tchort:
Junglist-
eh I too am a noobie here, a high post count does little to hide personal ignorance (I won't name names.. :rolleyes)

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i didnt call him ignorant or insult his intelligence, i just noted how he took the thread off topic and insulted someone all in one fell swoop. dont think that im ignorant just because im not nice. ive watched this forum go to such shit that it pains me to read it anymore. ive watched my former comrades leave one by one because they were embarrassed to even have their good names associated with this forum. but i stick around because im not gonna leave my other comrades alone to deal with the shit and i hope to one day make it better. furthermore, because of this weeks issues with spam i have to read it double as much as i prefer. so dont blame me for being mean or uninviting. believe it or not this forum actually used to involve actual discussion, before it turned into a 15 year old question and answer session. threads get 5 posts and are pushed to the bottom and off to the back pages when some other n00b signs in and asks the same damn questions. i was relieved to see an actual thread that could invoke thought and discussion, maybe an open dialogue between intelligent members, and it bothered me to see another n00b come in and insult someone and give no basis for his opinion when he made it sure seem like he hadnt even read at least Nieztches post. dont go thinkin im ignorant because i dont answer every single question that comes through here, because theyve all be answered before. this forum isnt for 20 questions from johnny newtodrugs, and i refuse to help it turn into such a thing.

as for subvertpunk: dont go into this expecting a cure-all. its not gonna make your problems disappear. the more you expect it to the less it will probably do. dont go through your experience thinkin "hey, im gonna come out of this a different person and be able to kick because of it." because its not gonna happen that way. just let the trip take you where it may, and try to absorb it all in without thinking about how its supposed to help you. noone in this thread is saying that its gonna work, but theyre saying that it could, if done properly. this isnt about curing your addiction, its about opening your perception and providing a new image of yourself and your will and taking you to a place within yourself that will make it easier for you to kick. its not gonna kill your pain or your sickness, you will still have to do that yourself. this is only possibly going to provide you with more tools in your mental arsenal to accomplish your goal. and remember, theres no guarantees in it what-so-ever.

One thing to keep in mind is that if you take DXM and opiates it's possible that the effects of the opiates will be increased. What might normally be a fix could be a high when combined with DXM. The best documentation I can find of that right now is here. I know I read something more in depth about this somewhere else, but that's the best I can do right now. I have no personal experience in combining the two, so I'm just going from reading.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. I always feel great the next day, even if I stayed up most of the night. Oh, and i've also read that DXM and opiates seem to potentiate each other, so yeah, you may need less of the opiates.

[This message has been edited by confuzious (edited 11-11-2002).]

I didnt go off topic. I think that its stupid of you to try and quit a drug... just by using a new one? Its a slippery slope here. Where the hell would it ever end? If he feels that DXM replaces his urge for opiates... what would stop his personality from taking a lot of this?

Its not a solution. Its a cover.

uhuh. I dont think i will stop doing oxy and start drinking a bottle of cough syrup every single day. Im not using anything as a replacement here just something to help me make the kick as comfortable as possible.

Anyways tonight i went and got 2 4oz bottles of honey tussin. I also found my friend that has a vic script and will sell me for 2 bucks a pop. Im hoping someone, maybe meta can help me out with this question. Ok so i ween to 10mgs of oxy a day. One day i stop but im dope sick, so i know the really shit part of being dope sick is the first 72 hrs. In those 72hrs if i take vicoden to ease the sickness, will i be where i should be with my kick after i stop consuming the vics, or will i i be fucked when i wake up on day 4 and be where i was in the beggening becuase i just fed my body opiates in genral. I guess what im asking is if i substitute a diffrent chemical during withdrawal will i still be withdrawaling from chemical 1 while chemical 2 masks it, or will i not be withdrawaling at all just feeding the monkey?

Well first of all, I'd rather have a DXM addiction than an opiate addiction any day. DXM is MILDLY addictive.

This comes from the DXM FAQ on erowid:
"Is DXM an opiate?" No, it isn't. Sometimes people get confused because DXM's stereoisomer (basically, the mirror image molecule), called levomethorphan, is an opiate. In two dimensions the molecules look identical, but in three dimensions, they are mirror images of each other. DXM no more fits into opiate receptors than a left-hand threaded screw will fit into a right-hand threaded nut.

In fact, DXM doesn't bind at any opiate receptors, doesn't have opiate painkilling effects, and isn't cross-tolerant with opiates. It is only out of sheer chance that when DXM was invented, its origins were among the opiates; DXM's cough suppressant effects are completely different in mechanism from the cough suppressant effects of opiates. "

So I assume that DXM is different enough from the opiates that it isn't like taking another opiate.

quote:

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Originally posted by nuglobe:
I didnt go off topic. I think that its stupid of you to try and quit a drug... just by using a new one? Its a slippery slope here. Where the hell would it ever end? If he feels that DXM replaces his urge for opiates... what would stop his personality from taking a lot of this?

Its not a solution. Its a cover.

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because its not about the buzz here, its about opening yourself up and gaining a mentality. a better understanding of oneself and your brain and your personality, all rolled into one, produced by an intense experience and ego-adjustment. its not about gaining a buzz or getting fucked up or trippin your nuts off. if it provides someone the tools within themselves to see more clearly through their situation then it could also help that person realize that they have the tools needed to kick that addiction or whatever it may be. you havent ever felt that you benefitted from a psychedelic experience? or a trip to dreamland from ketamine or dxm? or are you the type who just gets fucked up becuase its cool to do drugs and you like to be high? do you not believe in the benefits of intense experiences that could re-align your though process and vision of yourself? have you even read this fucking thread?

Tchort: congratulations...you are the first person on this board to recognize my (purposely) misspelled name. Yes, originally I thought it might be a good ice breaker/convo piece but alas nothing of the sort. I guess there's not a lot of Nietzsche scholars here.

Thanks for the complement on the Enadoline piece.

nuglobe you have never been addicted to anything have you

I can't even stop smoking cigs

Even though K is a disasociative I wouldn't use it to try and kick. I know people who will sniff that stuff alday, using it reguarly is not good for your mind at all.

I remember reading about LSD being used to treat alcoholics and mild physcotic disorders.

Do you think this would apply to opiate addictionas well?

[This message has been edited by adihash (edited 11-11-2002).]

This is an alternative to the scientific approach involving DXM's effects. The way DXM effects pain and thought processes is very unique. It doesn't kill your pain, it doesn't calm your cravings. It simply removes you from outside influence. If you are seperated from reality, all the problems associated with relality leave you as well. It lets you experience a world free of earthly problems, such as addiction. Once you understand this state of being, it is much easier to obtain. You are doing all the work, DXM is just showing you how. Such experiences are more likely to happen above a 2nd plateau. If anyone is considering DXM as a way to beat addiction, understand it's contradictions as well. Don't use it to often or its enlightening effects will become too familiar, and won't be as helpful. And overuse can lead to physical damage as well as tolerance development or mild addiction.

Sheesh... please excuse any rambling. On adderall currently. Hope this was helpful.

[This message has been edited by Impulses (edited 11-11-2002).]

ya well i drank 80z's of 10mg per serving hunny tussin. Im pretty sure this was only maybe an upper second plateu dose. I saw cev's i could barely walk, kinda like being drunk. And when i layed down and turned music on i couldnt get up at all i was just like there not moving. I really only felt out off body or sepreated from myself a few times for only a couple of seconds. Also I felt like i was gonna hurl the whole time, the syup only contained DXM no gaufisteen or anything like that. I have a feeling that i got that sick feeling due to the syrup being made of honey, that much honey cant be good for you, lol. So anyways ill give it a rest and try 10 to 12 oz of the stuff next time, so i can go into the third plateu and maybe havee a more enlightening experince not just feel drunkish and happy.

No but my mom is a meth addict. She tried using alcohol to stop her meth use. Then she started to drink everyday. She wouldnt stop. Then when she tried stopping she relapsed to meth... yeah IM the one who needs to open up my mind. Im not a fucking retard who shouts out random bullshit.

yes you are. Alcholol is an addictive substance, mentally, and physically, with high potential for abuse. So ius meth and opiates. DXM is not physically adictive like hard drugs and alcholol thats why it has been recommended. You really need to get your head out of your ass and READ what DXM has been recommend for. Its not a replacement for anything. Until you have experinced physicall dependancy i think you should shut the hell up and stop being ignorant. How bout you do some research into addiction and addicts before you come off calling us pussies for not being able to cut cold turkey. Its not like ciggrattes my friend, you dont just stress for it. When i quit i throw up all day have cramps everywhere, and am in quite alot of physicall pain wich is very hard to deal with. But howa bout you be a man well shove opiates down your throat all most everyday for two fuckn years then well take them from you and not give anything to calm your ass down, and if yu get through it without 'being a pussy' you can be the next fuck john wayne, macho man.

'Alcholol is an addictive substance, mentally, and physically, with high potential for abuse.'

Go read about DXM stupid fuck.

Wow.. if you read some FAQs... they all have sections on quiting DXM when you find yourself addicted.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq/dxm_side_effects.shtml#toc.6.8

O yes, not to mention the whole new brain damage aspect. You can either have depression and dopamine disorders or, lesions.
http://www.third-plateau.org/dangers/brain.shtml

Perhaps you would rather develope holes in your brain rather than be depressed and quiting oxy.

Dont bother to respond, Im not going to read this post anymore. Its hopeless... Im just the ignorant newbie majoring in biochemistry preparing for med school.

Hold up here... you are both going into extremes. DXM is dangerous when used to much. DXM isn't an addiction cure all either, it just helps you out a little. You can get addicted to DXM, but its alot harder to get addicted than most drugs. But, when used in moderation, DXM can be reasonably safe. Don't go crazy with it, remember it is a powerful drug and should be treated like one. Haven't we been over this?

The addiction to DXM is purely mental. I had it for awhile, but it was unlike my addiction to Dextroamphetamine which was physical and mental. You can't understand the different until you've had a physical dependancy. Nuglobe, you obviously have nevr done DXM or you'd understand how it effects you; psychologically and physically. You are a total idiot, and to act like a holier-than-thou know it all is absurd. You ruined an otherwise perfectly good thread.

Also, if you used information instead of bullshit logic ('replacing one drug with another is just as bad') you might learn something.