This is a n00b question, but WHY is X so bad? Ive only heard it makes you really dehydrated and you need to drink some water while on X. But I just heard this. And why is it good? What are the effects of it?

ever seen those pictures of brains with those big holes all around them? thats unusable brain tissue. i want to call them olney's lesions, but i thought thats only for dissociatives? anyway, prolonged use of MDMA will cause these.

Bad effects:
When you take MDMA it cause the brain to release mass amounts of seretonin and dopamine... two chemicals in your brain that control you pleasure, mood, hunger, and sleep patterns. There is a space between the cells in the brain where these chemicals are passed back and forth.. sending signals to one enother. When e causes mass amounts to be released from one cell... it floods this space not allowing for the other cell to be able to take up all the chemicals.. these are then considered free radicals.. which cause damage to the brain (*note: this is only a theory in humans, it has been seen in rats however) Another problem is that dopamine is produced much faster then seretonin. These two chemicals are stored in the same cells, and if seretonin is missing then dopamine takes over the cell. Which can kill it. The final reason is that when you force your cells the release this mass amount of chemicals it harms the 'arm' that reaches out from one cell to the other. If you do high doses or do it frequently it can kill this arm. They have been noted to grow back.. but it takes a couple years.

So to be safe.. take antioxidents when you peak. Like alpha-lipoc acid and vitamin C. This collects and destroys the free radicals. Also dont do it often. Take breaks. This is how you protect the cell from self destructing kinda.

Now to the next question. MDMA doesnt make you dehydrated. It raises your body tempature which in turn makes you sweat. If you are dancing and your body temp is up.. this makes you sweat hella. It was said that a raver who was dancing with rolling looses about 1 quart (?) of water an hour.

Even if you arent out dancing drink a good share of water so your liver can rid your body of the toxin.

As for it being good... there has been studies about it helping a couple with relationships as well as people with post tramatic syndrome.. I dont know the details.

Effects... hehe its heaven. Life is great. Your in perfect blyss... but if you want to get into the details of it. This is from erowid.org:

POSITIVE
extreme mood lift
increased willingness to communicate
increase in energy (stimulation)
ego softening
feelings of comfort, belonging, and closeness to others
feelings of love and empathy
forgiveness
increased awareness & appreciation of music
increased awareness of senses. (eating, drinking, smell)
profound life-changing spiritual experiences
neurotically based fear dissolution
sensations bright and intense
urge to hug and kiss people

NEUTRAL
appetite loss
visual distortion
rapid, involuntary eye jiggling (nystagmus)
mild visual hallucinations (uncommon)
moderately increased heart rate and blood pressure (increases with dose)
restlessness, nervousness, shivering
change in body temperature regulation
strong desire to do or want more when coming down

NEGATIVE (see the MDMA Side Effects Profile)
(negative side effects increase with higher doses and frequent use)

inappropriate and/or unintended emotional bonding
tendency to say things you might feel uncomfortable about later
mild to extreme jaw clenching (trisma), tongue and cheek chewing, and teeth grinding (bruxia)
difficulty concentrating & problems with activities requiring linear focus
short-term memory scramble or loss & confusion
muscle tension
erectile disfunction and difficulty reaching orgasm
increase in body temperature, hyperthermia, dehydration (drink water)
hyponatremia (don't drink too much water)
nausea and vomiting
headaches, dizziness, loss of balance, and vertigo
post-trip Crash - unpleasantly harsh comedown from the peak effect
hangover the next day, lasting days to weeks
mild depression and fatigue for up to a week
severe depression and/or fatigue (uncommon)
possible strong urge to repeat the experience, though not physically addictive
possible psychological crisis requiring hospitalization (psychotic episodes, severe panic attacks, etc) (rare)
possible liver toxicity (rare)
possible neurotoxicity (controversial)
small risk of death. Approximately 2 per 100,000 users have extreme negative reactions resulting in death. (rare)

However, the negatives increase if you do it frequently, or at larger doses.

*cough*

I think im done.

Yeah that works.. hope you learned something.

[This message has been edited by nuglobe (edited 11-09-2002).]

Ok, thanks that did help a lot.

No problem.

Nice info, Nuglobe.

just a note about the free radicals and killing them.....you can take a supplement called coral calcium to kill them.....it contains everything the body needs to function at 100%.....and i mean 100%.....it kills the free radicals upon entry to ur brain and starts repairin damage immediately.....micheal j fox has parkinsons which is caused by free redicals.....if he took the coral calcium supplement regularly he could kill all the free radicals and repair his brain over about a few months to a few years(depending on the amount of damage)im not exactly sure where u can find this supplement but if you search the web it shouldnt be too hard.....later

I advise you take a seratonin precurssor aswell for a few days prior but not on the day, 5-htp is the best as unlike l-tryptophan it doesnt build up liver toxins and it also crosses the blood/brain barrier much easier, helps stop the dopamine problems with overuse of xtc, also taking magnesium supplements pretty much gets rid of most of the jaw clenching
And drink lots of water if your dancing,lots.

I have a few additions:

Serotonin relesed from the neurons is flooding the synapse. Because there is litle of it compared to dopamine it all gets destroyed by monoamine oxidase yet there is lots of dopamine left. When all of your serotonin is gone and the reuptake pumps are working dopamine is taken up into the cell where it isn't supposed to go, then your monoamine oxidase b in the cell destroys the dopamine creating a peroxide free radical. This burns away at the neuron. They have observed neurons in heavy MDMA users and disovered that they have fewer branches becuse of this. However in humands the neurons grow back although not as long yet more branched to compensate.

These studies were done with animals and very high doses, or on very heavy prolonged users.

You are pretty much safe if you limit your dose to one pill and your partying to once a month. We all brake these rules though, I've taken 4 pills at a go and partied two nights a weekend for a few months. But in retrospect that was very dumb. I think people should be educated in the safe use of substances and not obstruction of knowldedge and prohibition.

The coral calcium crap is just that, crap it will not help.

MDMA does not cause ohlneys lesions, unstable is talking out his ass. Ohlneys lesions are caused by DXM,PCP, and K. Ohlneys lesions are specifically in NMDA receptors on separate neurons wheras E specifically acts on the raphe nuclei which are long nerve fibers that stretch all the way across your brain. A few of these might get burned up a bit. However I'm living proof that there is little if any permanent damage.

There are benefits to preloading with 5-HTP or tryptophan they increase the available amount of serotonin so that it doesn't drop too low during the roll. Unfortunately this is reversed if tou preload so you can take more pills and get higher. I think it is best to start eating the preload(5-HTP or tryptophan) during your trip so you get some serotonin when you need it. Vitamin B-6 is a cofactor in making Serotonin so it would be a good thing to take as well.

Tryptophan is not hepatoxic that is government cooked up bullshit to limit OTC use of a very beneficial compound. It arose from a contaminated batch of tryptophan brought in ftom an asian supplier a long time ago. Strangely the ban on tryptophan coincided with the release of prozac.... Tryptophan is an essential amino acid, a component of proteins!! You eat lots of tryptophan every day!! This is similar to the MSG conspiracy(glutamate is also an amino acid).

A very good bet that is proven in clinical studies is to take a SSRI or MAOI-B drug like Paxil or Prozac one hour into your trip. These block off the reuptake pumps and don't allow dopamine to get into the neurons. This works and I do it anytime I roll now.

quote:

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Originally posted by unstable247:
ever seen those pictures of brains with those big holes all around them? thats unusable brain tissue. i want to call them olney's lesions, but i thought thats only for dissociatives? anyway, prolonged use of MDMA will cause these.

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there is really no proof that X causes those "holes" in the brain. The holes are places with reduced activity as compared to a normal brain. However the brains with the "holes" are being compared to other people and not the same person after taking X.The person with the holes in their brain could have been like that before taking X.

Well, ghetto. That is why we use trial and error. We do not do one experiment and make a conclusion on it. We do hundreds and hundreds and collect the data. It is called the scientific method.

But, scientists may be in favor of making E look bad, so we never know. Unless you get some rats and some E and tell us later how it gos

It is a known fact that government funded research tends to turn out government supporting facts.

'parkinsons which is caused by free redicals'

Dude parkinsons is do to low level dopamine in the brain. Which is a key neurochemical need to send movement signals.

quote:

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I have a few additions:
Serotonin relesed from the neurons is flooding the synapse. Because there is litle of it compared to dopamine it all gets destroyed by monoamine oxidase yet there is lots of dopamine left. When all of your serotonin is gone and the reuptake pumps are working dopamine is taken up into the cell where it isn't supposed to go, then your monoamine oxidase b in the cell destroys the dopamine creating a peroxide free radical. This burns away at the neuron. They have observed neurons in heavy MDMA users and disovered that they have fewer branches becuse of this. However in humands the neurons grow back although not as long yet more branched to compensate.

These studies were done with animals and very high doses, or on very heavy prolonged users.

You are pretty much safe if you limit your dose to one pill and your partying to once a month. We all brake these rules though, I've taken 4 pills at a go and partied two nights a weekend for a few months. But in retrospect that was very dumb. I think people should be educated in the safe use of substances and not obstruction of knowldedge and prohibition.

The coral calcium crap is just that, crap it will not help.

MDMA does not cause ohlneys lesions, unstable is talking out his ass. Ohlneys lesions are caused by DXM,PCP, and K. Ohlneys lesions are specifically in NMDA receptors on separate neurons wheras E specifically acts on the raphe nuclei which are long nerve fibers that stretch all the way across your brain. A few of these might get burned up a bit. However I'm living proof that there is little if any permanent damage.

There are benefits to preloading with 5-HTP or tryptophan they increase the available amount of serotonin so that it doesn't drop too low during the roll. Unfortunately this is reversed if tou preload so you can take more pills and get higher. I think it is best to start eating the preload(5-HTP or tryptophan) during your trip so you get some serotonin when you need it. Vitamin B-6 is a cofactor in making Serotonin so it would be a good thing to take as well.

Tryptophan is not hepatoxic that is government cooked up bullshit to limit OTC use of a very beneficial compound. It arose from a contaminated batch of tryptophan brought in ftom an asian supplier a long time ago. Strangely the ban on tryptophan coincided with the release of prozac.... Tryptophan is an essential amino acid, a component of proteins!! You eat lots of tryptophan every day!! This is similar to the MSG conspiracy(glutamate is also an amino acid).

A very good bet that is proven in clinical studies is to take a SSRI or MAOI-B drug like Paxil or Prozac one hour into your trip. These block off the reuptake pumps and don't allow dopamine to get into the neurons. This works and I do it anytime I roll now.

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Yeah yeah yeah.. I was to tired to share EVERYTHING =P

Just a note: When you are told to drink water to keep from dehydrating keep in mind that too much water can be just as bad for you on MDMA. The kidney is working at a slower pace when under the influence of ecstasy and too much water can cause an overload in the kidney, which can result in death. *Bottom line-drink water in moderation:not too little but not too much.

Oh come on to fuck people - all this taking other chemicals to try and readdress the balance of chemicals in your brain while on E is verging on the fucking ridiculous. If you only take sweeties occasionaly say once every month or two then not really much to worry about. (Remember - too much of what you like is not good for you... 'cept maybe sex!)
As far as drinking water there does seem to be this myth that if you take E you must drink loads of water. This is bollocks! You only need to drink the same amount of water as your body is displacing ie if you are dancing your balls (or tits!) off in a hot environment & you are sweating then you should drink water to combat this. (By sipping the water and not downing it all in one go.) You don't need to drink loads of water if you are say sitting in someones house on E.

Oh yeah - Ecstasy users have holes in their brains? Think again...
http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/09/02/ecstasy.article/

A Rolling Rizla Gathers No Moss....

[This message has been edited by ryanthemeister (edited 11-11-2002).]

the only problem with pills are the quality, this applies to where I live, pills costs about �3-�5.

They are totaly wank not a descent experience at all, because everyone is pill mad you can flog any piece of shit.

IT has been along time since I have got my hands on any descent mdma

my rule is never ever buy mitisibishi rolls. those are MDA and DXM. not any mdma. they are reported in like 60% of deaths of X.
and don't mix viagra, cuz that makes your blood pressure too low and you can die. (thats what i heard on pot-tv)

quote:

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Originally posted by 40ozTOfreedom:
my rule is never ever buy mitisibishi rolls. those are MDA and DXM. not any mdma. they are reported in like 60% of deaths of X.
and don't mix viagra, cuz that makes your blood pressure too low and you can die. (thats what i heard on pot-tv)

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ummm ok well there are Plenty of good mitsubshi pills www.dancesafe.com ive had good mistsubshi's before its just that its a big name so alot of people fake em

the test kits from www.dancesafe.org always came in handy for me when i was doin E. you can request any number of kits (not like 100, but a few) if you make a reasonable donation. send them 20 bux and ask for 10 kits and they will help you out. they wont detect everything in your pill, but they will tell you if theres actually MDMA in there or not. one of the things you have to remember is that even if a pill has the same press on it its not necessarily like the one you took before with that press. there are no guarantees, and there are lots of pill manufacturers who may use the same presses but not the same shit.

quote:

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Oh come on to fuck people - all this taking other chemicals to try and readdress the balance of chemicals in your brain while on E is verging on the fucking ridiculous. If you only take sweeties occasionaly say once every month or two then not really much to worry about. (Remember - too much of what you like is not good for you... 'cept maybe sex!)
As far as drinking water there does seem to be this myth that if you take E you must drink loads of water. This is bollocks! You only need to drink the same amount of water as your body is displacing ie if you are dancing your balls (or tits!) off in a hot environment & you are sweating then you should drink water to combat this. (By sipping the water and not downing it all in one go.) You don't need to drink loads of water if you are say sitting in someones house on E.

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Shut up moron. MDMA is extremely hard on your liver and kidneys. IT IS A TOXIN. You just introduced it to your body. You liver and kidneys need extra water to perform their tasks, or else toxins will build up. This leads to kindey failure, and other problems down the road.

Sorry but there are other reason a person should drink water, besides dehydration and hypothermia.

Also, here is a nice little study for you to read. I cant remember where the whole write up is, but here is the wrap up.

Alpha-lipoic acid prevents 3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine (MDMA)-induced neurotoxicity
by
Aguirre N, Barrionuevo M, Ramirez MJ, Del Rio J, Lasheras B
Department of Pharmacology,
School of Medicine,
University of Navarra,
Pamplona, Spain.
Neuroreport 1999 Nov 26; 10(17):3675-80

A single administration of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, 20 mg/kg, i.p.), induced significant hyperthermia in rats and reduced 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) content and [3H]paroxetine-labeled 5-HT transporter density in the frontal cortex, striatum and hippocampus by 40-60% 1 week later. MDMA treatment also increased glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP) immunoreactivity in the hippocampus. Repeated administration of the metabolic antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (100 mg/kg, i.p., b.i.d. for 2 consecutive days) 30 min prior to MDMA did not prevent the acute hyperthermia induced by the drug; however, it fully prevented the serotonergic deficits and the changes in the glial response induced by MDMA. These results further support the hypothesis that free radical formation is responsible for MDMA-induced neurotoxicity.

If you wish to be SMART, not saying you would want to do something like that, you would do as listed above to prevent further damage done to your body.

Let me guess, you got your info from your dealer right?

quote:

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and don't mix viagra, cuz that makes your blood pressure too low and you can die.

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Close, they make your blood pressure too high. Leading to such nice things as strokes. Ya need more pressure to get it up. =P

nuglobe you are doing it again! You seem to be mostly there but there's some missing.

MDMA is not a toxin, no more so than hundreds of medicines out there, it is even less toxic than aspirin and tylenol. It casues changes in your bodies systems temporarily and yes you should keep mindful of your bodies need for water. However drinking when you are thirsty will be fine.

That study like many of its kind is interesting but flawed. First of all to take an equvalent amount of ecstacy one would need to ingest ten pills. This would be equvalent to what they were giving the rats. And the lipoic acid in the multiple grams.

You will be fine like ryan said (he still is a bit of a bitch for saying it the way he did) if you keep your rolling low dose and infrequent. But stuff like 5-HTP, tryptophan, and protein(milk even) do help. We need not be scared by the propaganda.

Nuglobe: Viagra causes a drop in blood pressure, this is why it can be dangerous when combined with anti-hypertensives. Look it up next time, before you spout.


Just when I was beginning to respect you.....

quote:

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MDMA is not a toxin, no more so than hundreds of medicines out there, it is even less toxic than aspirin and tylenol. It casues changes in your bodies systems temporarily and yes you should keep mindful of your bodies need for water. However drinking when you are thirsty will be fine.

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I didnt say that they were not. I understand this. However, mdma and most foreign chemicals are toxic to the body. Most foods you eat get broken down to toxins. This is the point of the liver and kidneys. This is why you piss.

Doesn't drinking too much water cause your blood to thin and your brain to swell causing lots of problems in itself.

"Betts described the article as "despicable." Leah Betts died after taking one tablet of Ecstasy on her 18th birthday. Later it was revealed that she died as a result of drinking too much water to counteract the overheating effects of the Ecstasy."

This was taken from the CNN aricle someone posted a link for earlier.

quote:

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That study like many of its kind is interesting but flawed. First of all to take an equvalent amount of ecstacy one would need to ingest ten pills. This would be equvalent to what they were giving the rats. And the lipoic acid in the multiple grams.

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Sorry forgot to post to this. Im not trying to sound like a dick, Im just trying to help him out. If you stick to the same ration I dont see why it couldn't be a good thing? There are many studies out there that point to neurotoxity in rats and primates.

Sorry if that sounds shitty. Someone owes me money and hes trying to play mind games on me and its pissing me off really bad.

Fuck... too many conversations going on. O yes tryptamine.. you are right. Viagra opens your blood vessels to let more blood flow into your penis. As a result, your blood pressure drops and your heart speeds up.

Guess I need to pay more attention next time I read.

quote:

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Doesn't drinking too much water cause your blood to thin and your brain to swell causing lots of problems in itself.

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Yes, but you have to drink like more then a couple litters a hour.

from what ive read it seems that l-tryptophan is a precurrsor to 5-htp which to cross the blood brain barrier needs to be taken by other means, means shared by precurssors to dopamine etc etc hence using 5-htp should be better as it crosses the barrier by itself hence being more efficent, hence less needed and also its the direct precurssor to seratonin which means it should be made faster.

Anyone with experience taking 5-htp with x want to share what they found to be the best times to take it?

quote:

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Originally posted by nuglobe:
Shut up moron. MDMA is extremely hard on your liver and kidneys. IT IS A TOXIN. You just introduced it to your body. You liver and kidneys need extra water to perform their tasks, or else toxins will build up. This leads to kindey failure, and other problems down the road.

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I said that you needed to drink water when on E but not to much which can also be dangerous. I'm not disputing that the kidneys need more water to perform their task but not too much. And, by the way, MDMA might be hard on the body but - and I admit this is my opinion and NOT fact - I truly believe that hard alcoholic spirits are harder on the body. I want you to compare a hangover with the day after taking E...

quote:

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Originally posted by nuglobe:
If you wish to be SMART, not saying you would want to do something like that, you would do as listed above to prevent further damage done to your body.

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I'm SMART by not taking E's every fucking day man. I take E maybe once a month, sometimes only once every couple of months so I class myself as a low user.

quote:

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Originally posted by nuglobe:
Let me guess, you got your info from your dealer right?

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Do you honestly think I sit and have a gossip with my dealer about how to reverse the potentially damaging effects of the drugs that he is selling me? I dont fucking think so.

nuGlobe - What you dont seem to realize is (and I'm not knocking your intelligence here cause you do seem quite bright) that E is a drug and ingesting ANY drug carries risks. Which I am fully prepared to accept as the positive effects totally outweigh the negative for me.
Thanks.

The best preload I have found is four 30 mg 5-HTP caps, one every hour for two hours before and when you drop and then one hour later. Really you could taker ten or whatever, for hours before and after, but 5-HTP ain't cheap.