quote:
Originally posted by Wintermute:
you know, I don't generally have problems talking to anyone on any level, nowadays, if I want someone, I let them know, and have at least a reasonable success rate...
I know, I'm going to catch hell for saying this; and I mean it as a sincere observation - nothing funny or smart-assed about it, but I think that females have it a bit easier than males.
By no means am I trying to say that women don't have low self esteem, or fear rejection - I know they do.
I'm just saying that since men do most of the approaching, they encounter more rejection: You have to admit that more times than not it is the male who asks a girl out [not
every time, obviously. If that were the case I would still, as mentioned earlier, be in a position that doesn't bear thinking about ;-) ].
Now this is based solely on my personal observations and experience, which is really all that I
could base it on. And I know it sounds sexist, but don't you think that woman have more [And I hate to use this word...] �power�, than men in this area?
quote:
thing is, if I hadn't done that and realized that I was going too far or doin it wrong, I'd never be where I am today (ie married to a prick- oops, no, wait, that's not good right.. )..
And if
I hadn't done [or
not done, as the case may be...] what I did [or didn't] do I'd never be where I am today; alone, in pain and with the person who means the most in the world to me 2000 miles away [I�m kidding, really � except for the 2000 mile part].
quote:
er, anyway, success in getting someone to date you or whatever is totally about having the confidence to talk to them and be a little charming, and the only way to do that is to practise..
Yes! You are so right. That is why I suggested that the lad just face the fear and go for it, now, while it is [relatively] easier to deal with [than it certainly will later in life]. If I had done that years ago I wouldn't be where I am [Though, I have to be honest: If changing my life as such would mean that my daughter would never have been born, then I have to say that I would not change a thing. Even the little time I get with her
and the prospect of getting less action than a priest [sorry, any Catholics out there, but, well, what can you say? I�m a Catholic survivor, myself] is still better than life would have been/would be without her [Yeah, by changing my life I could have ended up with a different daughter. One who, odds are, I would have loved as much, I�m sure. But I want the one I got!]
Right after my separation, I did try to go out and be social, but it was not a pretty sight.
Feeling bad enough about myself because of the way my back made me appear, but having that added on with more feeling of, well, not so much unworthiness as unattractiveness as a result of my wife up and leaving - I was sure, for a long time, that a big part of why she left was due to my back [it's turns out I was partially right, while still being totally wrong: She could deal with how my back made me look; she had grown used to it as it happened over the years. What she couldn't deal with was the amount of pain I was in and the fact that I was to soon go under the knife. It wasn�t what made her leave, but it sure helped the decision, as did the fact that she didn�t know how/didn�t want to try to deal with my increasing manic-depression (bi-polar), so I learned from informed sources later].
So all of that coupled with my already existing fear of rejection, and lack of 'practice' [and what practice I did have was with just the one woman, and , lord, I hope that she is atypical], and, well, let's just say that I wasn't the only one who thought that I shouldn't be doing the bar thing
.
A female friend made an spot on assessment: she said my problem was that I didn't know how to flirt. Which I guess is as good a way to describe it as any. And, for the most part is a good summation of the skill I lack. This has baffled many a friend because in every other respect I am out going and extroverted; I can get up in front of strangers and make a complete idiot out of myself [intentionally, not like one does when drunk!]. I make friends
very easily; female included � as long as I never consider them as a romantic possibility. Matter of fact many of them confide in me a lot; they say they feel safe around me [one told me that she felt certain that if she were in a vulnerable position [like a bad breakup or such] that she could come talk to me, get drunk, even start to �overly friendly� with me and still trust that I wouldn�t do anything; that that was how much she trusted me and felt safe around me. Anther expressed it like this: she said say she was walking down the street with me and some other friends. And say she felt someone pinch her bum. If she then turned around and saw me, another girl and , perhaps some stray dog, she would suspect the girl, then the dog [or visa versa] before she would think I would have done it. I did then and still do now like to think that I�m a gentleman and can be trusted not to take advantage of someone Which was one reason, I suppose, that every time a friend had a girlfriend who had never does, they made sure I was around to help guide them through their first trip. Every female that I�ve seen dose for the first time, carpet dives to one extent or another. I�m
not generalizing; I�m merely stating my observation�.While having totally derailed my diatribe here [/TANGENT]. The flip side of never making a move on a girl like that was that I also didn�t/don�t know when one
does, or I should say
did want me to make some move. For example: my sister is close to my age: we were very close friends in our late teen to mid-twenties, and as such, she had friends � female friends - likewise near my age. I didn�t have trouble with my back, back then, so I was (if I can say this without sounding self serving or arrogant) a well above average looking guy. Several of her friends had a crush on me [at different times] which I was totally oblivious to, and which my sister didn�t deem to mention to me until it was too late.
Aha! I can blame my sister for my current state of affairs, [or lack there of]Anyway [Is there anyone left reading this at this point?] when my female friend said those things to me, I took them as a compliment. Though, thinking about it now, I�m not so sure I wasn�t slighted a bit. Hmph!�..
�.. No, it was meant to be complimentary, I�m just on a self pity roll, I thought I�d throw that in ;-) .
Getting back more to the discussion at hand [at least for now], and away from me and my neurosis:
Winter >> When you say �practice�, isn�t flirting [mostly] what you were referring to?
I think I would trade just about any two skills that
I am proficient at to be even mediocre at flirting.
Granted, anyone can change the way they are at any age, but at the age I am, with my lack of experience, and just the fact of my appearance [I know, I've had female friend's tell me that women do not place that much importance on appearance, and I know that compared to men that it's true, still there are limits]. Several here had a chance to see my picture a while back - though the condition doesn't look as bad as it is in it; it's close enough. [Since I've gone this far in exposing myself, sort to speak, I will post the link again, should any care to judge for themselves]**
I'm not sitting around crying about how my life sucks [god knows I have worse things to deal with than having to spend the rest of my life on my own], and I don't mean to sound that way [though I�m sure it must]. I really am [again] trying to use myself as an example for others so that they can avoid errors that I made [and make some new ones of their own ;-)].
See, actually, in this case, my bad back is an asset: I can use it as a perfectly acceptable excuse of why I'm not out dating - for all of those nosey relatives out there
.
And I realize, too [or is that
fervently pray?] that as more time goes by, the women around my age who are still single will get even less picky. I just hope that the age where such as twisted [ok not twisted, but definitely bent] spines are overlooked is still within my lifetime [I should have made that my #1 answer, in the question I posted above
]
quote:
fear's a nice thing when it stops you doing something dumb, but asking someone out isn't dumb... if you're rejected, so what, could be plenty of reasons you get rejected that have absolutely NOTHING to do with you as a person..
You are spot on right, again.
However, imagine this: You are at the age where you are beginning to see the positive aspects of females [or males, for you females] and you ready to start dating. However, early on you encounter several rejections in a row. You stop trying for a while, then, finally, you occasionally [and I mean
very occasionally] venture trying once again. Now imagine that on each of those occasions you get rejected again. But wait! There�s more! Now, consider that on
three in a row of those occasions (granted the time between the first and third is five years, still�) the female of interest said it wasn�t you; that she just didn�t want to be in a relationship, or be dating at that time. You accept can accept that; it sucks but isn�t anything too devastating to the ego.
But then you come to find her dating and/or hooked up with some other guy less than a week later. Now, of course it could be a fluke and mean nothing [other than the b**ch didn�t have the
balls to be truthful with you]; but to have that many �loses� to no �wins� at that early in your [attempted] love life, it is easy for one to develop an unnatural expectation/fear, that such or like it will
always happen should you be so presumptuous as to think to ask a girl out. It is that which then [many a friend keeps telling me] becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. But I ask you:
What would you think if
every time you asked someone [and I mean a
different person each time] out that something along those lines occurred � Even if you
can count the number of times without removing your shoes, it is still adds up to
every time. Wouldn�t you become gun shy?
I just thank whoever or whatever there is to thank that there were some women out there who took it upon them selves to ask me out/ pursue me until
even I could have no doubt of their intentions and feelings towards me.
And, certainly it has nothing to do with me as a person.
Believe it or not, I do think that I'm a decent person that is deserving of good things and such. But the two are mutually exclusive.
As I've said before, deserving has nothing to do with anything; the universe doesn't care any which way and deals shit out as it pleases to whom it pleases.
Otherwise more 'decent guys' would be with a girl, not the asshole [and again, this is not saying that
all women are like this. There are, though, a sizeable enough number that are that such a general perception has arisen.
quote:
and even if it does, most of the time, someone�s perception of you has way more to say about them than it does you.. even if you think yer pond scum too, even pond scum deserves love.. or something like it..
Well, I don't think I'm pond scum. In fact I do have an above average opinion of myself [which is different from self image: One is how I see my self as a person, the other how I see myself, physically].
And
I do think I deserve it [especially after some of the crap I've been through]. But again, what I feel I deserve;
indeed what I may actually even
really truly deserve, don't enter into the equation unfortunately.
**: I really have no idea why I am pouring out so much of what I usually take great pains to conceal; Not that I'm ashamed of this [though, I must admit, I
am a tad embarrassed; then again, what male wouldn't when admitting he's worse off than a typical 16 year old in the department of male/female relations?], it's just not an aspect of myself that I let many people know about.
I guess, even more than wanting to help the original poster get past his fear now, I am also real tired [this is my third day up, again - did I mention my 'screw the lithium' attitude I've decided to adopt recently? Let the ex deal with me fully bi-polar. Ha!], which is why I just keep writing and typing, regardless of what it may do to the people's previously held image of me as a big macho Italian god
Hey, if I can't amuse myself, what's the point?
Ok, that's enough. I've done enough damage, etc. [I should have just stayed in Better Living...]
P.S.,
Any females out there between the ages of 24 and 39, who are either a fan of Lon Chaney, or think that the Hunchback of Notre Dame has a sexy figure, well, you have my e-mail
[This message has been edited by Metaphysicist (edited 05-23-2002).]
2002-05-20, 17:04
Need Help