now you have a deranged sniper running around your country hunting people. with mailbox bombers, people flying planes into your buildings, a wide variety of phsycos forming militas, the most shitty public health system in all western nations, corrupt war-mongering government and the list goes on and on.....

scary stuff hey. i know that americans have an amazing ability to think only of themselves (even if you don't know it everyone else on earth does, don't bother trying to argue if your american either, youll just prove me right) but even these events should give the impression to your closed, narcissistic and selfish minds that your country has some really severe problems that are not going away.

okay, enough bitching (although well justified and true) my point is that how do you americans feel about the continuing and rapid decline of your country? it is obvious that it is happeneing, so are americans just hiding in their lives safe in the knowledge that it won't get too much worse before you die, or is the constant struggle over self imposed barriers all the sedation that you need to keep you from realising? there is nothing stopping this decline, so how do you feel about it. are you resigned to accept your countrys fate with blind fanatical jingoism, apathy or just plain old refusal to belive (americans are also great at that too).

i know alot of people here would class this as an "anti-american rant by one of the anti-american crowd", but im posing it as a serious question (and i am hopeful for half serious replys, and please don't start bitching about australia either, im don't care to defend any country, they are all pretty well shit, but america is most noticibly so) that i am very intrested in. how can america be so blind to its fate with not the least interest.

Im american. Your right. Our country is crap. I agree,... ever since Bush came into office everything is crap. We need Clinton back. But dont down on ALL americans. There is people like me who hate the government and most other people and just solicit themselves and watch the chaos.

Maybe RAOVQ americans dont believe there country is declining but getting stronger.

I would live in America for one reason - The Health System even though you have to pay for it - it is far better than the UK's NHS.

Peace Renegade,

well fair enough, if they don't think that its declining then fair enough, but something ive noticed is that 'Americanization' is synonymous with degredation of any society.

Since bush? do I need to point out hiroshima & nagasaki, vietnam, extreme racism and the genocide of the native american Indians who lived in America first?

Not to mention home to some of the greediest, nastiest, child-abusing, polluting corporations?
America has always had serious problems.

By no-means would the majority of america ever condone this, but it begs the question are you not partly responsible for it if you choose to ignore it.

I like americans, they are fun to party with, and usually have good drugs, although our weed is way better. My point is, America might be a little fucked, but americans are a good a bunch of people, all in all.

since bush came in? were not a dictatorship or anything we have a fuck load of old white protastant males running the country. and our public health system is shitty? in what ways? i mean the mayo clinc in rochester minnesota has had patients from other countries, including ledars. the president of jordan came to the US for treatment, and some leaders from Russia came here for treatment. our country develops most of the medical equipment, and procedures, as well as medice. since our government finances much of the research our taxes are higher and our government aided medicare is poor. im not all pro US by anymeans, but i do see the good things as well as the bad. after all without having all information you cant have an intellgent opinion.
Also name me a country without serious problems? its the human race that creates problems and the ledars of countrys that continue them.
B.C buds are wonderful but we also have some other really dank weed, i had some of canabis cultures #1 bud. yummy..

RAOVQ
i was born in america not by choice, and at the age of 18 dont have much choice but to stay, so if i leave and goto your country i will no longer be narcissistic, selfish, and narrow minded. right? cause living on a certain area of earth has that much effect on a person.. i cant help things. people are dynamic. thats no diffrent than racisim really. sure there are majorities, but you cant use those charcteritcs to classify the whole as being whatever it is that is the sterotype.
and to answer your last paragraph, im not at all happy with the way this country is going. do i hate america no. since when do you have to side with the governments decisions, and decisions past to be pro-american. never. im proud for the history and the people. martin luther king for example. the prostests against the war. starting one of the first continually operating wellfare systems (im not talking about lazy crack addict wellfare checks). there are alot of people that did things from the country and got educated in this country to make it good. when you have all this anti american propoganda are you saying that it is the people or the government? there is a massive seperation.
in all do respects though, we are far from perfect, but so are you, and everyone else.

[This message has been edited by lewser (edited 10-07-2002).]

I don't feel that the United States of America is going to hell in a hand basket.

We have had tough time before and we always come out better.

Sure, some awful things have happened in the last year or so but it has had no real effect (day-to-day or fiscally) on my life.


I have a question or two for RAOVQ, what is the minimum wage in Australia? Assumiing that one exsists over there. How much does a quarter pound hamburger, large fries and a 44 oz soda cost?

Really, I would like to know.
Thanks.

I'm a jingoist. I want the U.S. to remain the only world superpower. That means I want Europe to stay weak and divided; I want China to remain contained.

I think we should start the bombing and shooting in Iraq so that my DuPont stock will go up in value and the layed off telecomm engineers can get new jobs with TI and Raytheon.

The U.S.A. accounts for about 35% of the world "GDP." I want that number to go up. We produce about 85% of the world's cinema. It should be 100%.

I say everyone in the world gets a choice: speak English or Spanish or starve, because we won't sell you any fucking "fromage." It's either cheese or queso, goddammit!

You mentioned health care. Let me ask you this, Mr. Healthcare-For-Everyone: why should I have to pay for your medicine? If I'm sick, I'll pay for my own health care and you should do the same. Can't pay, too bad.

To sum up, America is the global hyperpower. We are the strongest nation in human history. We make the goddamn rules until someone arises who can challenge us. Until that time, the rest of the world is going to have to fucking deal. If the rest of the world keeps bitching, who knows? Maybe it's Iraq today, but Saudi Arabia and France might not be too far off if they keep whining.

[This message has been edited by beatmeofficer (edited 10-07-2002).]

America has a very strong economy, and when people have money they don't give a damn about any of our problems. We also have a very violent history, and we have to recognize it. It's our culture, and that's not easy to change. Gun control certainly isn't the answer, as it did almost nothing to change the number of gun-related deaths for you Australians.

America is simply a country of very headstrong individuals. We take what we want, and we have to pay for that.

i, for one, think the whole world is either going to hell or is already pretty much there. ain't no stoppin it. humans are called the pinnacle of evolution. evolution is driven by successful propagation of life. living cells operate by decreasing the entropy of their internal system (simplified but true); the second law of thermodynamics says that any system of decreasing entropy must mean a greater increase of entropy in the system's environment. entropy is loosely defined as disorder or chaos. therefore, human beings are (currently) the most efficient chaos engine, and i believe that our existence kills the equilibrium of life on earth as a result. in summary, we're self-destructive by nature. life kills, end of story.

just something that's been running through my head today.

The only American you listed was the mailbox bomber. Maybe you should do some more useless research before making such a bold statement with such meaningless insight.

P.S. What the fuck came out of YOUR country? Maybe if people would start thinking about their own countries instead of bitching about others with false facts and lame hate we would have a lot less bitches.

[This message has been edited by 6C (edited 10-07-2002).]

yes clinton will solve all our problems. it's just a very sad fact that until something insanely drastic happens the majority will not care.

but me personally...i am not sure about all this downfall business. i don't really know what to feel about the USA now. but i think that if we want to stop the downfall we are going to need about 4 really good presidents. ones that operate purely on reason and logic. what goes up must come down.

I find it amusing how so many people from other countries, whether it be the Australians, the Canadians, the French, or whatever country, are so interested in American life... Then they go on to ask how can we be so selfish and narcisistic.

The reason why we only think about ourselves is because we don't waste our time thinking about your countries. Nothing that happens in "the happy land of Australia" will EVER affect my life. You guys are under the protection of the United States, (not that I agree with it, but Bush is running shit now) and until you guys decide to do something without our permission (like Iraq is trying) then you guys are meaningless in the everyday American's lives.

I sleep soundly at night knowing that my country's influence stretches across the globe. If Australia was so damn important and crucial to world affairs, then I'd hear about you guys on the news.

I'm not going to argue that Americans aren't selfish, I'm not going to argue that the US gov't is right... I don't support a lot of the Bush administration's politics. But it kills me how every other country thinks they are better off. I'm not saying we're the best country, but how can you honestly sat we're in a state of "continuing and rapid decline?" Take a look out the window, which country is the most influential in the year 2002? THAT'S why I'm glad to be American.

The topic of this thread is "You must be terrified" while Americans are not terrified at all, at least not in what I've seen. Not once have I heard someone say that they were scared of being killed by anthrax or some sniper or whatever. I assure you America will come out of this whole terrorism thing only stronger so you faggot's over in Europe (not all Europeans, just the bitchy ones) can SHUT THE FUCK UP. Keep calling us stupid, keep making fun and looking down at our country, but always remember that we are your protectors. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Americans are Europeans in a way...

I'm not terrified, I'm annoyed. Why can't MY neighborhood have mystery snipers who target muds. Every city should get to have at least one

Hey Steve Erwin rules lol aka crocidle hunter

That's why you should all vote for me. I don't give a shit about politicly correct. Then I'll use all these powers Bush is going to get congress to give him and abolish gun control, abolish state laws, legalize weed, and ban petroleum products. I'll figure out some excuse to bankrupt AOL. Then I'll use subliminal advertising to convince everyone I'm right about everything and they should stop watching tv. I'll make everyone pass an IQ test to vote and if they don't get 100 or above they have to pass a extremely difficult version of the test they give to wannabe natualized citizens. I'll make annoying comercials a capitol offence and anyone who makes one will be strangled with piano wire. Old Navy will have to hire better actors for their comercials and if they don't the president of the company will be beaten like a pinotta. Webster will be shot for making up all these hard to spell words. If anybody points out one of my spelling mistakes they will suffer the same fate as Old Navy. So do I have your vote?

I think I'll also address some of the other specific issues that were raised.

quote:

---

now you have a deranged sniper running around your country hunting people. with mailbox bombers, people flying planes into your buildings, a wide variety of phsycos forming militas, the most shitty public health system in all western nations, corrupt war-mongering government and the list goes on and on.....

---

The same people who are afraid of that sniper are the ones who buy lotto tickets. That is to say, the ones who are bad at math. So one dude snapped and went crazy. There are 250 million bastards in this country, eventually someone had to lose his shit and do it. At least I can buy a gun in the U.S.A. so if a gang of criminals try to do a home invasion I'll have something more effective than foul language at my disposal.

Mailbox bomber is a similar story to the crazy sniper. When you can figure out a way to keep people from going crazy, let me know, I'd like to hear it.

People flying planes into buildings... You know that really good looking dude that gets all the chicks and he knows it and is really smug about it? Ever want to punch that guy? That's what happenned to America.

Shitty public health system... I mentioned this earlier. Why should I pay for your medicine?

Wide variety of psychos forming militias... Do you have any idea what the militia movement is all about? I'll try keep this succinct, but this does require a bit of detail. Contrary to what the leftist media says, the militia movement isn't all that crazy. Sure there are some guys on the fringe who are racist or religionist or just fucking weird, but you can't tell me there aren't weirdos any place. The mainstream of the militia movement is about liberty. See, we have a thing here called the Second Ammendment to the Constitution. It's part of something called the Bill of Rights. It says, more or less, that a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, so the government shall not infringe on the right to keep and bear arms. Some people get hung up on the "well regulated" part and say, "well, we've already got one of those; It's called the army." But, a militia is by definition a group of armed citizens not part of a regular army. There was considerable disagreement among the Founding Fathers as to how the militia should be regulated. Hamilton suggests in Federalist 29 that the officers of the militia should be appointed by the states. Others argued that the government should have no part in the regulation of the militia. Certainly "well regulated" means the militia will be disciplined and effective. This does not necessarily mean regulated by the government. I'll get back to this in a minute. The other key part of this is the word "free." They could have just as easily written "necessary to the security of a state," but "free" was deliberately included. That's because the Founding Fathers of the United States of America realized that an armed citizenry is the most effective check against tyrrany by the government (Hamilton was notable in his disagreement, but this was rooted in the fact that Hamilton did not support a standing army. So, any oppression going on would be done by the militia which Hamilton didn't believe could happen because the militia men were just everyday guys.) If, say, a crazy Christian fundamentalist government ever came to power and wanted to haul off my Muslim neighbor or my Jewish ass to some sort of camp, I would start shooting. That's why we need guns. Now, to get back to the "well regulated" part, imagine if I were part of a militia that was well disciplined and regularly trained. Rather than holing up in my house by myself, I'd grab my gear, gather my friends, and head to Crazy Richard's farm where my militia buddies and I trained for this exact situation. There's a whole forum for this kind of stuff, and I'm sure they've been over it again and again, but I don't read it and I don't know how many people on this thread read it. I just wanted to give you an idea where the whole militia movement is coming from.

Alright, that last section was really long, but I'm trying to address the points you raised.

Moving on... a corrupt war-mongering government. Well, what can I say. Corruption happens everywhere. Really, no place is immune. War mongering... ehhh.... I don't know. I don't really see anything wrong with that. I can see where you're coming from on this, but if we can go to war, win, and come to gain from it, why not? Even if we don't win, increased defense expenditures will mean increased over all government spending which will mean on the whole more goods and services consumed ie. an increase in GDP. Besides, Iraq has the second largest oil reserve in the world. If we installed a friendly puppet government, it would go a long way to busting up the OPEC cartel and help decrease the power of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and that goddamn pinko commie in Venezuela. Yeah, it's war for oil. So what? Oil is a very important resource. It's only once we stop using oil that war for oil will be stupid.

Next point. Yes, Americans do have the amazing ability to think only of themselves (although, a lot of times they do include family and friends in there. Sometimes there are these crazy Southern Baptists who try to "save" me by converting me. I wish they would think only about themselves.) That ability to think about ourselves is what has made America great. By harnessing self interest, America has been able to become the world's dominant power. Think about it. Would you go to work if you weren't getting paid? Would movie production houses make movies if they couldn't make money off them? Would the folks at General Motors produce cars for free just out of the goodness of their hearts? It's self interest and greed that motivate us to labor and to innovate.

Moving on, "Bush came into office, everything is crap." Remember that the most important role of the president and the area in which he has the most power is foreign policy. Clinton was more peaceful and more of a statesman. He was a good president. Bush.... eh... he makes us look bad, but I think he's doing a decent job.

Americanization is not necessarily synonymous with degradation of societies. Really, can we help it that other countries like Coca-Cola and McDonalds more than their special indigenous oh so precious traditional drink and the local delicacy prepared through the hard honest sweat of guys toiling in the sun for hours. I say if they want to wear neon green nylon shorts instead of loin cloths and Baywatch instead of the local theater, let them have it.

Moving farther back in history... Hiroshima & Nagasaki. It had to be done once to win the war. It had to be done the second time to scare the Russians. A lot of Japanese civilians died. I'd rather they died than American GI's. A lot of Japanese civilians would have died in the invasion necessary to defeat Japan without using atomic weapons.

Vietnam was all about containing the commies. Sure, first it's Vietnam, but then it's Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, India, and Pakistan, and on and on and on. The commies were bent on world domination and we had to show them that they wouldn't get it without a fight.

Racism, genocide of American indigenous peoples. Yeah, it happenned. Who is to say that just because they were here first they had a right to the land. It's not like they were improving it in any way. I mean, where were the fences and the roads. Okay, sorry, that part was sarcastic. The reality is that it was some messy business. Dishonor and displacement. Couple with the fact that those white people were some dirty, disease ridden bastards. The disease was the most important factor, I think. Because, really, the American government broke several hundred treaties with the american indigenous peoples. They should have caught on after a while and figured out that those funny looking white guys were no good. The problem is that disease ravaged the population so badly that they really couldn't fight back and hope to win. It's really a shame, but sometimes life isn't fair. The white folks had the opportunity to take land from people who couldn't defend themselves very well (because of disease) and they took it.

I addressed corporate greed earlier. Child abusing I'll assume relates to sweatshop labor. One of the sad facts of economics is that as big multi-nationals move in, the people who were participating in a traditional economy which was driven by tradition which allowed everyone to fill a niche now find themselves wanting more and more money to purchase the Coca-Cola, cigarettes, whiskey, Manchester United jerseys, and televisions that they crave. This typically means that they need to get jobs rather than operate as independent artisans. The upside to this is that little Manolo rather than being by necessity a farmer like his father and his grandfather and his great grandfather now has the choice of working in the textile mill, the plantain plantation, or the copper smelt. Yeah, they're shitty jobs, but not too much worse than what he would be doing otherwise. Further working for the multinational gives a little stability (as long as he doesn't get uppity.) He won't starve because of a crop failure or all the fish dying after the pesticide plant moved in next door. It will get better eventually. One of the things that some people don't take into account is that a lot of the developing countries where this kind of shit goes on actually advertise their lack labor and environmental standards. "Move your mill to sunny Nicaragua. Where unions are illegal and we have friendly paramilitary death squads to be sure they don't start." There's a sort of race to the bottom among developing countries because the place where labor is the cheapest and the people the most afraid of the government is going to be the place where businesses will start production. The money that the government gets from taxes and kick backs all too often goes to line the pockets of the assholes in charge rather than help their constituants. Yeah, it's kind of shitty that it goes on, but you need to look at whose fault it is. Business is just looking to make money. The assholes in charge of the governments are the people you should be blaming.

wow thats one loooong fucking post, all i have to say is congrats to beatme.

Uhh... yeah... sorry about the length. I just finished writing 10 pages about Machiavelli a few hours ago, so somewhere in the 12 straight hours I spent writing it I tapped into some sort of writing nerve thats allowing me to spew on at great length about the most minor of topics.

Impressive post. However, it will have little effect on the anti-American attitude that some of these posters have. It is very easy for them (the anti-America crowd) to point out our crazies and disregard their own. That's why it is sometimes pointless to respond to their statements even though your eloquence was superb. If this is what you put out after 12 hours, I'd like to read your 'fresh' tome.

Nox

America has been going downhill for quite sometime....the least they could do is legalize marijuana, thats our first step to freedom, Nevada may be legalizing it, VOTE QUESTION 9!! is weed legal in AUS.?

[This message has been edited by cornzornoplat (edited 10-08-2002).]