i'd have to say im a full on atheist. but i wouldn't go about hating someone cause they have a different system of beleifs from me, thats just insane to even think of doing. I beleive some people are told at a very young age, when they don't know better and are very impressionable, that there is a supreme being who can do no wrong who likes to watch you every second of every day to make sure you dont break one of his little rules(most of which dont make sense.).and if you do break one, watch out, cause this loving caring spirit-like father figure will send you to hell where you will burn forever.but anyway, some people, later in life, will either choose to except it and go on beleiving in this magical sky-king out of blind faith, and some see through the bullshit and realize religion is good for nothing but starting wars and walking around all paranoid for fear that if you step on a bug youll be damned for eternity.

and isnt religion only dated back like, what, 5000 years or perhaps a little more?how did people ever manage to survive without their precious false-prophet.and if he does happen to exist, who created him/her?who created that person?did the first being just come out of nowhere?its just an entire religion based on an illogical and somewhat glorified novel that people mistook for a prophesy explaining the meaning of life.

I do, however, beleive jesus christ could've existed.I just think he was some old world stoner who popped a few too many shrooms.one day he goes into the middle of the town square or whatever and shouts "HEY, YOU KNOW THAT GOD PERSON YOU ALL KEEP TALKING ABOUT? I'M HIS SON!!!!GIVE ME YOUR MONEY YOUR CROPS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS AND ILL SEE IF I CAN GET THE OLD MAN TO SAVE YOU ALL FROM THOSE DAMNED OLD FIREY PITS!!!"

Well, thats my philosophy and i base it on absolutely nothing.Its just like the bible aint it?

Im the son of a catholic and an atheist, and i believe in god, but not a lot of the other catholic claptrap. catholicism these days is too hypocritical.

I was brought up in a Catholic family...
...and I haven't been excommunicated or openly renounced the religion so I guess technically I'm still Catholic

But I'm more of an agnostic now...

All I see organised religion as now is a social framework...
I still show up at church... but only to see my mates... who pretty much all share my view... pretty much what warweed is sayin

The way I see it... the only reason that people are now questioning their faith is that religion and society have separated...
so religion is now an optional part of people's lives...

Personally... I have my own set of morals... which is a mixture of Christian values, Eastern philosophy and the way my parents brought me up... but in terms of deities... I'm yet to find an existing 'religion' which I feel comfortable following...

Oh yeah... the very idea of religion is based of faith... so the existence of a god cannot be proven through logical debate... it's ll a matter of faith...

I am not a Buddhist but i believe what the Buddhist life is makes such a lot of sense.

Be passionate for all sentient beings - to me it makes a lot of sense.

Peace Renegade,

not-very-good Muslim here.

I'm an agnostic, because I just don't care enough.

quote:

---

Originally posted by snuffamaluffamagus:
"HEY, YOU KNOW THAT GOD PERSON YOU ALL KEEP TALKING ABOUT? I'M HIS SON

---

You forgot the part where, when specifically asked the question if he (Jesus Christ) was the Son of God, by Pontius Pilate, Christ's answer was, "Thou sayest" (KJV). So can't really make that statement although the general theme is correct.

Nox

seems ive been a discordian for years and just realized it. much props to the religion that admits its all in your head, just like the rest of the world. hail eris.

For those with adhd, Im a mixture of every religion with a beleif in no religion.
The meaning of life is something i have thought deeply about, I was born into a family with a history christianity but noone really followed it until my father died when i was about 2 when my mother turned to the church and gradually i've watched members of my family be converted. My ma made me, my brother and sister go to sunday school until she thought we were older enough to choose (and i got banned). (sorry if its a life story but, its bassically how my beleifs have grown and changed through the years.)
I never liked it, i met a guy who had adhd there, (who i now still smoke with, although hes fuckin crazy, proper nutcase always has been.) In case your wondering i got banned because me and this guy cleaned out the wine in the vicars office then broke into the "tuck shop", it was really the straw that broke the camels back. None of my family apart from my ma really believed, until my uncle almost died in a house fire, (Alcoholic who fell asleep with a fag), came out with third degree burns on about 90% of his body, odds of him surviving were almost nill, my ma went to his bedside everyday, he made a full recovery and ended up with only one small scar, Now hes a believer (and rarely drinks). My auntie was a bit of a head case, for some reason converted and is now not quite as much a headcase. My grandad goes with em on sunday cos hes lonely and got nothing better to do (hes also a headcase, fucked up family hey). Anyway my point to that is i've seen it change peoples lives for the better, so i understand why people turn to religion when they've got nothing else, and if it helps im all for it. I Personally don't know wether theres a "god" None of it makes sense to me, im not going to blindly believe in something just so i can give up responsibility and look at everything as "god works in mysterious ways".
If there is a god why does he want me to beleive in him when he wont show himself to me, I've asked the church every question you could possibly think of when i was a kid, you know what the reply was...
"If you knew that youd be God!"
"He works in mysterious ways!"
"Why must you question everything!"

In other words none of them knew, but asking themselves the questions would fuck up their whole life, so they make excuses.

But like i said i can understand why some people need religion and if it helps them im all for it. Is there a meaning to life? I dont know and i never will. I realised a long time ago i will never find a meaning to life from anybody else, looking for one is circular logic, it never ends. If i want a meaning to life its the one i give myself. I do beleive in right and wrong, now that doesnt mean i beleive in Laws, It means as long as what i do i can justify to myself, i was in the right, eg. i would go kill a man if he was gonna come and kill me, as long as i can sleep at night its all good.
I have gone to the youth club at my ma's church to teach the little fuckers how to dj, the second anyone pulled out the bible and tried to preach at me, i just went back to the questions i asked as a child, guess what, they barred me from going back because the elders felt i was corrupting the youth! How fucked up is that.
Me corrupting the youth with logical questions, when their sitting their telling them a bunch of garbage they can't back up.
Anyway that doesnt mean i've dissmissed anything, if their is a god and he wants me to believe in him, he only has to do one thing, prove he exists, im sure the whole fucking world would believe in him if he appeared to them all, why wouldn't he? Hes all powerfull and everywere. So bassically i beleive in everything, anything and nothing. Until one thing is proved to me, being able to sleep at night and never being a cunt for no reason is enough for me.

my mom is catholic, my dad is Jewish

However i dont believe in any of that bullshit, so i think i might go and study Buddhism of something

atheist - I like to think for myself.

agnostic

basically,I believe that God could or could not be real..but no one has EVER givin me undeniable PROOF that he exists.plus the fact that the bible(writen over 2000 years ago) contradicts itself,not once,not twice,but many many times.

I was brought up by jehovahs wittnesses but I hate the bastards and now i have no religion nor do I need one...I can have a relationship with god without anyones help

I practice subreligion.

I am athiest and if I was to choose another religion i would choose Zen...

Atheism is just as much bullshit as Chrsitrainity or Buddhism... Good luck with that shit.

And I hate to have to say this but: Athiesm is a religion. Sorry folks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Z3m:
And I hate to have to say this but: Athiesm is a religion. Sorry folks.

---

Atheism is the absence of religeon. The lack of belief in a supreme deity. There is no god, no set of rules to follow, no book, no church, no uniform, no sins or punishment, nothing.

So, if you don't mind, could you support your argument that atheism is a religeon?

Because its not a lack of belief in a god, its a beleif there isnt a God, theres a difference.

I'm LDS (not to be confused with LSD:)
Thought, lately, I developed something of a foul mouth online. *sigh*

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tanna:
Because its not a lack of belief in a god, its a beleif there isnt a God, theres a difference.

---

But what is the difference? Your say-so?

I suppose our differing opinions are simply a matter of perspective.

The difference is,
A lack of belief in a "god", doesnt mean you dismiss the idea a "god" might exist, but you dont believe in any specific one. Were as a belief a god does not exist means youve ruled out that existance.

Understand?

Im not saying Agnostics, atheists, christians etc... are wrong or right, thats not for me to judge nor do i know, each to their own.

Maybe it is just a difference of perspective though.
Anyway,
Take it easy.

a�the�ist Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Theres the meaning of qtheist, guys.


Anyway;
I'm not an atheist.
I don't agree with any religion, although I am very spiritual. I don't believe in in god or a supreme being in the traditional sense, since that suggests that 'it' is superior to us.

Born, baptized, and confirmed Catholic...

Would you really have - A fine Italian boy like Me?

Though now I am most certainly an Agnostic - The definition of which I think best describes it is:

Someone who thinks that there is something out there [call it 'God', 'Universal Consciousness: Whatever], they just don't know What

quote:

---

Originally posted by Z3m:
And I hate to have to say this but: Athiesm is a religion. Sorry folks.

---

Yeah your right on that. Should be a bit more careful how I phrase things I was never baptised or anything so I am without religion and prefer to be of none. But if I was to choose one zen seems to be interesting, but whether I would choose it or not I am not sure.

brought up catholic...didnt buy it,the whole confession to priests and praying to mary stuff ticked me off, now i pretty much have christian beliefs mixed with some rastafarian ethics

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tanna:
Maybe it is just a difference of perspective though.
Anyway,
Take it easy.

---

Totally, the glass is either half empty or half full, both people are right in their own minds... comfort with your own mind is the key here and the purpose of faith or the lack thereof anyway. Glad we could agree to disagree. Peace.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Canyonero:
Atheism is the absence of religeon. The lack of belief in a supreme deity. There is no god, no set of rules to follow, no book, no church, no uniform, no sins or punishment, nothing.

So, if you don't mind, could you support your argument that atheism is a religeon?

---

Agnostic means to be devoid of relegious belief.

Atheism is a doctrine that there is no God or gods. It's derived from the Greek atheos - godless.

Grinding between Agnostic and Satanist.

Goddamit! I cant decide!

i'm a frezbietarin We believe when we die are souls are thrown on the roof of a WAL-MART Store, where we laugh and frolic. while we are alive we will follow the first PERSON THAT COMES ALONG WHO CAN FLY UNASISTED! we believe this man to be lyndon johnson.but we will serve the first to fly or hover!

my sister is jewish. but lately she's been letting my nephew go on wkend retreats to the lake with a catholic priest! my nephew(12yrs old)seems to like it ok ,but he's been walking funny and all he wants to watch are musicals and sparticus! kids !!

I was raised by Catholics who didn't follow their religion very well. The Catholic Church in my home town has the phone number of 3666.

I delcare myself a Neowiccan for all intents and purposes. I have also incorporated discordianisim and technomagry into my structre of beliefs.

essentially, i was raised by parents who were exposed to heavy baptist and catholic ideas, it turned them into negative unimaginative people and thus detracted my attention from churches and xtiatnity. If found paganaisim myself and use the integrated concepts of all religions to relate to reality and not subscribe to the theological viewpoint of any one sector or religion.

I used to be an atheist and a nihilst. Ever since I had my first trip on morning glory seeds after listening to Bill Hicks:

"Young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.

We are God's perfect and holy thoughts, we live in his mind and there is no reason to suffer or lack, ever."

I'm a doubter among doubters, but yet this made perfect sense to me when I was tripping...it still gives me comfort to think about it.

Whatever

quote:

---

Originally posted by ComradeAsh:
Im one of those people who believe religeon is for chumps, what does that make me?

---

ans: a chump

quote:

---

Originally posted by razorlines:
Ich bin nichts

---

just out of curiosity is that dutch,
its gymnastics for the toungue that language.

quote:

---

Originally posted by warweed12:

I will be converting to latter day saint offically on january the 8th

---

Have you actually studied Mormonism instead of blindly adhering to what the missionaries say? Your mind is required in reality. Do you actually have any idea of what the hell your getting into and how bad of a manmade cult they are? Did you know that they used to slit people's throats that were in the upper ranks for violating church rules after they took oaths? Here is some things that they most likely will not tell you and you most definately need to know before joining the LDS cult. Now pay attention, because all of this is true. I almost got roped into it many years ago before I knew the whole story. Of course, any Mormon you ask about most of these things will outright deny it because either they don't know about it or refuse to accept the history of their own religion.

WHAT THE MISSIONARIES WILL NOT TELL YOU

Here is a summary of important facts about the Mormon church and its history that the missionaries will probably not tell you. I'm not suggesting that they are intentionally deceiving you; most of the young Mormons serving missions for the church are not well educated in the history of the church or in modern critical studies of the church. They probably do not know the all the facts themselves. They have been trained, however, to give investigators "milk before meat," that is, to postpone revealing anything at all that might make an investigator hesitant, even if it is true. But you should be aware of these facts before you commit yourself.

Each of the following facts has been substantiated by thorough historical scholarship. And this list is by no means exhaustive!

• The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?
  
  
  
• Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later.
  
  
  
• In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.
  
  
  
• Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.
  
  
  
• The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."
  
  
  
• Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (a pair of magic glasses that were supposed to allow hin to translate), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place.
  
  
  
• The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre- columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.
  
  
  
• The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.
  
  
  
• Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race.
  
  
  
• Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.
  
  
  
• Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book.
  
  
  
• Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet. The most recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980's. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide.
  
  
  
• The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the 150 years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it.
  
  
  
• Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:
  
  - The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father);
  
  - The United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
  
  - Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven);
  
  - The Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978);
  
  - Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities);
  
  All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.
  
  
  
• Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":
  
  
  - The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1838. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up.
  
  - The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version.
  
  - The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box.
  
  
  
• Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred.
  
  
  
• Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God."
  
  
  
• Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history.
  
  
  YOUR LIFE AS A MORMON
  
  If you should decide to become a member of the LDS church, you should be aware of what your life in the church will be like. Although you will find yourself warmly accepted by a lively community of healthy, active and generally supportive people, many of whom are very happy in Mormonism and could not imagine their lives without it, there is another side:
  
  
  
• You will be continually reminded that to enter the highest degree of heaven (the "Celestial Kingdom"), you will have to go through the endowment ceremony in the temple and have your marriage to your Mormon spouse "sealed." (If your spouse is not Mormon, you cannot enter the highest degree of heaven.) To get permission to have these ceremonies performed in the temple, you must prove yourself to be a faithful and obedient member of the church and do everything commanded by the church authorities, from the Prophet down to the local level. You will have to undergo a personal "worthiness" interview with the local church authorities inquiring into your private life and your religious and social activities.
  
  
  
• You will be expected to donate at least ten percent of your income to the church as tithing. Other donations will be expected as the need arises. You will never see an accounting of how this money is spent, or how much the church receives, or anything at all about its financial condition; the church keeps its finances secret, even from its members.
  
  
  
• You will be expected to give up the use of alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea.
  
  
  
• You will be expected to fulfill any work assignment given to you. These assignments may be teaching positions, clerk positions, helping with various support tasks - any job that needs to be done. Each task you perform successfully will make you eligible for others, with more responsibility and more demands upon your time. The members who perform these jobs, even those involving sensitive pastoral counseling, receive no formal training whatsoever (there is no paid, trained clergy). You will be told that God has called you to your assignments. Many Mormons find most of their spare time taken up with church work, trying to fulfill the numerous assignments that have been given them.
  
  
  
• You will be expected to be unquestioningly obedient to church authorities in whatever they might tell you to do. "Follow the Brethren" is the slogan, and it means to follow without doubt or question. Discussion of whether a decree from above is correct is discouraged. You will be expected to have faith that the leaders cannot possibly lead you astray. Even if they should tell you something which contradicts what a previous prophet may have said, you will be told "A living prophet takes precedence over a dead prophet.".
  
  
  
• You will be able to "vote" on those who have been called to positions of authority over you, but the voting will be by the show of hands in a public meeting. Only one candidate for each office will be voted on (the one "called by God"). The voting is therefore almost always unanimous in favor of the candidate.
  
  
  
• You will be urged not to read any material which is "not faith-promoting," that is, which may be critical or questioning of the church or its leaders, or which might place the church or its leaders in an unfavorable light.
  
  
  
• You will be advised not to associate with "apostates," that is, former Mormons. (You will be asked in your "worthiness" interview about this.)
  
  
  
• If you are unmarried, you will be encouraged to marry a good Mormon as soon as possible. When you do marry, in a wedding ceremony in the temple, your non-Mormon family members and friends will not be allowed to attend the ceremony, because only "worthy" Mormons are allowed to enter the temple.
  
  
  
• If you are homosexual, you will be pressured to abandon this "evil" aspect of your nature. If you do not, you will probably not be fully accepted by other church members. If you do not remain celibate, you may be excommunicated.
  
  
  
• If you are a male over 12 years of age and "worthy" (that is, if you are obedient, attend meetings, do not masturbate, etc.), you will be ordained to one of the levels of priesthood, and, if you continue to be faithful and obedient, you will gradually advance through the priesthood ranks. If you are female, you will receive the benefits of priesthood authority only indirectly, through your Mormon father or your Mormon husband. The role of the Mormon woman is to be a wife and mother and to obey and honor her priest husband (or father).
  
  
  
• If you prove yourself to be faithful, hard working and obedient, you will eventually be considered worthy to "receive your endowment" in a Mormon temple. You will not be told in advance exactly what to expect in this lengthy ceremony, except that the details of the ritual are secret (Mormons prefer to say they are just "sacred," but they treat them as though they are secret). As part of that ceremony you will be required to swear a number of oaths, the penalty for violation of which is no longer stated but until 1990 was death by various bloody methods, such as having your throat slit from ear to ear. You will be given the secret signs and passwords which are required to enter heaven. (Although most Mormons who have not received the endowment know very little about the ceremony, the entire liturgy is now available on the Internet to Mormon and non-Mormon alike.)
  
  
  
• After receiving the endowment you will be required to wear a special undergarment at all times.
  
  
  
• If you should ever decide that you made a mistake in joining the church and then leave it, you will probably find (judging from the experiences of others who have done so) that many of your Mormon friends will abandon and shun you. If you are unable to convince your family members to leave the church with you, you will find that the church has broken up your family and your relationship with them may never recover.
  

Consider very carefully before you commit yourself, and remember that any doubts you may have now will likely only increase.

Examine carefully both sides of the Mormon story. Listen to the stories of those who have been through an unhappy Mormon experience, not just those Mormons who may speak glowingly of life in the church.

The Mormon missionaries are often charming and enthusiastic. They have an attractive story to tell. At first it sounds wonderful. But remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!" Be careful not to fall into the trap of believing something simply because you want it to be true. Mormons may tell you that those who criticize the church are lying, misquoting and distorting. If you examine the sources used by the critics, however, you will discover that most of their source material is from official or semi-official Mormon writings. You, too, should examine those sources.

Is Mormonism a "cult"? Many experts on religious cults see in Mormonism the same fundamental characteristics as cults which have entrapped the unsuspecting, even though most people think of "cults" only as small, unknown groups. Use a "cult checklist" to evaluate Mormonism, or any group, before you commit yourself.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 10-09-2002).]

That's NOTHING compared to World Overlord, J. R. "Bob" Dobbs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Z3m:
That's NOTHING compared to World Overlord, J. R. "Bob" Dobbs.

---

Who the hell was that guy, why was his death so covered up, and how did he start that subgenius cult? This is the first time I've heard about this guy.


[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 10-09-2002).]

DARK MAGNETO, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

i'm a mormon, and i have a couple things to say about your "hidden truths", i'll call them.

1) we don't have to where "special undergarments". we don't even have to wear fuckin' undergarments if we choose not to! (not that we would do that O.O

2) you don't HAVE to do things that they ask you to do. it's asked of you to do it, but not forced upon.

3) caffiene, smoking, alcohol and all that shit... it isn't forced. but it is certain things that are PROVEN to fuck up with your body. so there is REASON to not use them but i've considered smokin' weed when i've been stressed to the max. what're ya gonna do, get the LDS cops on my ass?!

4) jackin' off... it is just not considered morally good. i don't do it because i choose not to. not because they say not to. if you do, that's your thing. they don't care.

quote:

---

Have you actually studied Mormonism instead of blindly adhering to what the missionaries say? Your mind is required in reality. Do you actually have any idea of what the hell your getting into and how bad of a manmade cult they are? Did you know that they used to slit people's throats that were in the upper ranks for violating church rules after they took oaths?

---

what bull shit is this?!

quote:

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The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?

---

and this?

quote:

---

In 1828, eight years after he says he had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians.

---

do you even know the fuckin' story?

quote:

---

The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars."

---

what bull shit is this?

quote:

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The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it.

---

lemme put it this way. have you heard of the Nephites and the Lamanites?

quote:

---

Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters.

---

know the story.

i'm not going to continue, this is a fuckin' waste of my time. i'll say this plain and simple. until you know ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ABOUT MY FUCKIN' CHURCH, SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU PECKER-HEAD!

Shadow Knight the religionist

First off you copyed that completly of a mormom hate site which my parents have all read confronted me with secondly i can read what i wish and do as i wish but god is forgiving but just because i wack one out does not mean i won't go to the celestial kindom hell there are very very few people that go there and it is mostly filled by children who die before the age of eight who have been baptized into the church you do not have to wear a special undergarmet after you recive the endowmen you do not have to complete the tasks that you have been asked if you do not wish to do it it is your choice also yes homosexuals are discorraged but that does not mean they are forbidden to enter the church every one is welcome although you most likly will be pressuered to change your homosexual ways and yes most of the church history is true he did get in a gun fight and did die he also burned down the newspaper company and yes you are asked to pay 10% in tithing for helping with church needs and no it is not secret what they do with the money lot's of the money goes toward the churchs welfare program the missionary funds the repairs that are needed any any thing else like media and making of church videos and all sorts of stuff that is not a something that is hidden from you and yes the missonarys will ask you if you understand and if you would need help and anwser all your questions to the best of there abilitys if they are unable to do so they go and ask soem one of a higher power to help them and beleave me i have asked every thing "what abotu drugs" "pre marital sex" "why give up stuff like coffe and alchol" "why should i beleave you" ect....

and yes mormonism is a cult "A system or community of religious worship and ritual."

i cult is any religion that gathers to worship a god so bascally any religon that gathers in a church temple what ever is a cult and should be left at that i do not always agree with mormon rules but i take like a man like ever thing else in life life is not always fare and your not going to get through life without making sacrifices frankly alot of that document above was falsifyed by people who are ex mormons and have been striped of the right to hold the preisthood and to have the holy ghost they fell this as a personal attack and they most rebel they feel so strongly that he church is wrong they add a few things in there htat comply with the stero typical veiws of the church to make it look like what they say is true and they write it on the internet because hey "the internet could never lie" and there right the net can not lie it is the people behind the computer that lie

i do not discrimnate you for not likeing the mormon religion but i ask to to at least accept what i beleave in and like every religion it has a deep and dirt past and there are allways people going to try rebel against it but yeah if you do not like me for what i beleave in i find that sad.

Peace
-warweed12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Z3m:
Agnostic means to be devoid of relegious belief.

Atheism is a doctrine that there is no God or gods. It's derived from the Greek atheos - godless.

---

quote:

---

From Dictionary.com

re�li�gion n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

2. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

---

My point: Atheism does not include religion in any way shape or form.

Some one give me more information about sub-genuis please. I tried reading their book but made no sense to me.

atheist.
"One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods." or "A godless person."

it is a still a religion it is still beleaving in there is no god

religion
"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

you are devoted to not having a god plain and simple

[This message has been edited by warweed12 (edited 10-09-2002).]

it is my personal belief that you should not confront people about their religion, it just makes them defensive and make you sound like an asshole (dark magento). i personaly do not have a specific religion. the closest label you could put on me is new age. i was with a wiccan for 2 years an my family members are Luthern and standard Christian. i have friends involved in meny different religions and sexual orrientations so my feelings are mixed on the topic.

Dark Magento..next time you want to disscuss someones religion, have a calm talk with them before you spew info you found on a hate site to them.

-destiny

[This message has been edited by devilishdestiny (edited 10-09-2002).]

I used to be christian, then for a while I kicked around the idea of being a discordian, then I thought about being a buddhist, Until god comes down from the sky (or where ever it is he resides) and tells me he exists I'm agnostic. I try to live a decent life and not to fuck too many other people over. I don't need slogans, mantras or dogmas to live a happy life. I really don't care what religions others choose to observe as long as they'll leave me alone.

quote:

---

Originally posted by riot_kid:
I used to be christian, then for a while I kicked around the idea of being a discordian, then I thought about being a buddhist, Until god comes down from the sky (or where ever it is he resides) and tells me he exists I'm agnostic. I try to live a decent life and not to fuck too many other people over. I don't need slogans, mantras or dogmas to live a happy life. I really don't care what religions others choose to observe as long as they'll leave me alone.

---

i agree i use relgion to fill a gap in my soul and to help me over come some stuff along with a reason to stop certain habits i think relgion has helped me greatly in the long run i was a long time atheist and i was also very negitive i can say that it has changed quite a bit i am still negitive quite a bit but not as much as before

Atheism is not a belief or a religion. It's basically seeing things as they are and knowing the things we have confirmed through the scientific method.

EDIT:
A-theism: meaning no theism
theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods

Atheism is not a belief in no god, it's a disbelief of any god

[This message has been edited by Atheist Mantis (edited 10-09-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by warweed12:

i do not discrimnate you for not likeing the mormon religion but i ask to to at least accept what i beleave in and like every religion it has a deep and dirt past and there are allways people going to try rebel against it but yeah if you do not like me for what i beleave in i find that sad.

---

I was just making sure you had been exposed to both sides of the coin and were making your decision after being exposed to an objective standpoint as well rather than a purely subjective one.

If you were going to make a decision just based on what a couple of "milk before the meat" missionaries told you (which not so coincidentally excludes anything that would be contrary to their cause) then I would have to harass you to at least experience a second opinion and talk to those that used to belong to the LDS church and fing out why they had quit. Choosing a religion is not something you want to go into half assed, make sure you know it's history along with the pros and the cons.

If your going to make your choice after being exposed to the religion's history, modus operandi, and origins, then that is entirely up to you; but I am an advocate for choice being made out of full understanding of the situation. I wouldn't want you to get into something that you didn'thave full knowledge of and end up regretting later on because you didn't know.

ahh i see well ok w/e thanks for your input and please excuse my friend shadow knight as for he has the intelligants of a trained monkey (he is the on who started me in the church) he uses strong language and is a little on the dumb side but raises a few good points in ever good converasation

Im gonna be 100% ohnest, as i try to always be. Im too drunk to be bothered to read preveious posts but as i see it...

Until something is proved to me i dont beleive it. I will listen but i will not hear. eg. i understand the world is round but till i know myself i will never blindly beleive it.

This i see as a good thing. I am not saying their is or isnt a god (atheism), If i was to say there was a god i would have a religion (eg. catholic, budhist, christian, muslim etc...), nor do i say their is no god (agnostic). The way i see myself is i beleive anything, everything and nothing until something is proved to me I will listen but i wont hear, you wont catch me with blind faith ever, the definition it self puts me off, i refuse to beleive anything blind. Give me proof and i will beleive but i aint no chump. If i told you the world was flat would you walk blind with the faith what i said is true... If your a mindless twat, yes. Would you dismiss what i said as false with no proof? if your a mindless twat, yes.
Or would you listen but only make judgement on evidence?

quote:

---

Originally posted by veryfirstreptile:
THE ONLY THING I HAVE AGAINST THE MORMAN'CHURCH IS ( THE OSMONDS)!!!

HOWARD HUGHES

---

So that means you aren't interested in the picture I have of Marie topless? ;-)

The arguments for supporting the Mormon church that have been presented in this thread are relativly poor: "come to a meeting and then tell me what you think" - sort of like saying, 'be under religious hypnosis and tell me what you think'.
Infact nearly every post tells me how idiotic it can be when people discuss religion.
This thread wasn't the greatist idea...for such a free-minded site there's a ton of religious slaves and whores here.
Remember, the guilty dog barks.



[This message has been edited by TheSell0ut (edited 10-11-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheSell0ut:
The arguments for supporting the Mormon church that have been presented in this thread are relativly poor: "come to a meeting and then tell me what you think" - sort of like saying, 'be under religious hypnosis and tell me what you think'.
Infact nearly every post tells me how idiotic it can be when people discuss religion.
This thread wasn't the greatist idea...for such a free-minded site there's a ton of religious slaves and whores here.
Remember, the guilty dog barks.

---

Shut up bitch your the perfect example of one of god's flaws in humanity

i wish you were here !

....i could then go forth and kick your ass ...

god sad in the ten commandments

thou shalt not kill !

he did not say horribly mame or disfigure your body and distroy it and make it into a bloody pulp ! so come here so i can disfigure you ! i live in edmonton alberta !.......... im waiting bitch !

A 1300+ post n00b?

No? That last post says otherwise...

are you calling me a n00b ?


i don't think i am ... i guess it is a possiblity but i don't think so i try not to flame to stupid but w/e it just can't be helped some times .... i do contribute to totse alot of times so yeah

this is assuming the comment was directed towards me of course

Lutheran. I was brought up as Lutheran and am completely happy with it. I never "fit in" to church as a kid/teenager either, but that didn't effect my faith, I enjoy church, but do not let any particular thing about church effect my faith, people are just people after all and fallible. My beliefs actually strengthened in my late 20's and continues to rise. My God is "hand's off" and does not want anyone to "fear" him like some Christian beliefs want you to believe, especially Catholics (sorry). I always chuckle at the people who say religion is for "chumps" or can't believe in God because of the "atrocities of the world" or whatever garbage. My religion makes me a stronger and better person period. I am in life a skeptic and a strong believer in the scientific method. But that is not enough, Science has a long way to go to explain the amazing beauty that is all around us. A "big-bang?" created it all? Where the hell did the big-bang come from? SOMETHING had to start it all, and science cannot, and will never be able to explain that. Also, yeah the world sucks, but you know what? there is a lot of great shit in the world too. God created man, we screwed up, he gave his son so we could go someplace nice after we die and we still have free will. What kind of world would it be if we never had our own thoughts, ideas, you know FREE WILL. Unfortunately there are some sick FU*KS out there who sicken me, but we all have the CHOICE to do GOOD or BAD. Most, I truly mean that, Most, choose GOOD over bad. I don't understand those cop-outs who say they have to have PROOF of anything before you believe it. I have never been to New York, but I am not going to be skeptical of it's existence just because I haven't been there. How completely self-centered that is. I am not "blindly following" anything if I believe in NY, that is just stupid. In general I keep my religion to myself. It is your own choice to be whatever you want to be (FREE WILL) I just know that my religion makes me feel like a better person and I have made countless great connections with wonderful, selfless people who help to make my world a better place. If you want to live a bitter, angry life, that is your Free Will.
I'll take my life over that anyday...
(The guilty dog barks? What the hell does that mean anyway? How can you post something that has no common sense, attacts people in a completely ad hominem way and say the guilty dog barks? Anyone who would say that is a hypocrite. God I despise those with nothing decent to say other than to just flame. I picture those people perfectly in my head every time...Shoeless, toothless, 3rd Grade education, never been with a woman or taken a shower in his life. Losers.

Sorry, I had to edit to shorten my post
[This message has been edited by ridemypony (edited 10-12-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ridemypony (edited 10-12-2002).]

*Starts a Slow Clap*


*sniff**sniff* that was very well put my firend i agree with you there 100% i do tend to get angry at people when they dislike another relgion for what they beleave in and that is the one thing im sorry for is because i am unable to see it from there point of veiw because above all they are human but i just can't except that people dislike people for there relgion or in genral just hate the relgion

i do not mind if people dilike they relgion but i really hate it when people voice it like "down with latter day saint" "or down with relgion" or other make constant fun of people because of what makes them happy

me i dislike Jehovahs witnesses i do not have a problem with them and i do not dislike the people for what they are but i do not like when some on pressures me into a relgion such as there selfs tell you the truth my dad's side of the family (desceased) is mostly all jehovahs witnesse my dad was till he was 23 and then he convertied to roman catholic then then 4 years later he died of a massive heart failure .... my uncle was a jehovahs witnesse but later converted to roman catholic he is still living and my grandmother is still a long time beleaver in the jehovahs witnesse group who is currently dieing


oh yeah btw did you know when some one in your family dies you are not allowed to go to the funral if you are a jehovahs witnesse meh go figure ....


any ways thats my story and my worthless canadian 2 cents

Also, "the big bang theory is based on observation?" I would like to meet the guy that "observed" it. The fact is that it is a THEORY. A theory is not FACT. Look it up in the dictionary. Also, many scientist(who are also agnostic/atheist) believe the big bang theory is hogwash. I love when non-believers bring up the scientific "proof" of the big bang when it is no more valid than the bible. It is sure as hell a lot more boring and less interesting than what religious faith can bring to even an impartial observer...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Z3m:
Atheism is a religion. Period.

---

re�li�gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

No.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

No.

3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

No.

4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

No.

5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Varies on a case by case basis. Many people are passive atheists that do not pursue it with zeal or conscientious devotion.

"Atheism" doesn't even positively meet 1 out of 5 criteria of the definition of "religion".

[This message has been edited by Dark_Magneto (edited 10-12-2002).]

yes it doesn't positivly mean it is not a relgion but it doesn't positivly mean it is it is a simple case of he said she said

bascally it all depends on the point of veiw of the veiwer not on what the dictionary says you must remeber the dictionary is a persons point of veiw to ! it may not always be 100% correct or upto date on some of the definitions

Yes, forgive me for having an intelligent opinion admist this religious chaos of bullshit. The guilty dog barks? Well basically thats saying whoever really is a fanatic religious dipshit is bound to flame me for my post. Sort of my way of making sure as to whose opinion I consider or don't.
Of course, choosing to belive in blind belief is your own choice, but seeing as being blind negates choosing...Plus the charm of embracing a heaven-promising love group is so great and so appealing it takes a strong person to realize there might be another path...therefore a pre-choice is almost null itself.
Sorry if no one understands what I say, I tend to be rather odd-spoken or eccentric. In the future I pray that you become less ignorant and more understanding of pitiful idiots such as I. Being with a woman or showering has no bearing on intelligence since I know many people who have all their teeth and so on- yet still remain idiots. You obviously have your own stereotypes of what idiots are, so why be suprised when others do as well?
By the way weed, you may dislike me because I dislike religions or people but you don't
I keep my insults mature or I try.
I also try to correct my typing errors ever done that war? I realize thats not a practice commonly done in this forum.

actually dipshit i don't dislike you for what you beleave in or not i dislike you for your idiocity and the fact that your a narrow minded twat who can see another persons point of veiw i also hate you when you call down other relgions because they are not what you think are right for that i am truly sad for you but i can admit to one thing i will be laughing my ass off when i watch you suffer in hell

and no i do not usally correct my spelling unless it is beyond the point of not being able to read it as for grammer i freely admit i lack the skill to use grammer in my posts i never did leanr to use grammer as i type i have allways had to go back and add it after im done writing and since i usally post alot i don't usally do that see thats the one thing between you and me i can admit to my worngs were as you ... well like i said your a narrow minded twat PEROID.

First off, everyone should know my view on religion, if it helps you im all for it, like i've said in previous posts i've seen it help people, and i have nothing against any religion except it isnt for me.

Anyway ridemypony as some of your post was aimed at me, i feel the need to doubt that little speech. I didnt say their was no New York or say you should doubt its existance, i merely stated that you shouldnt beleivesomething blindly, if there is no evidence to back it up why would you beleive it, there is evidence that can prove there is a New York, but there isnt to prove Lutherians are right, or theres a "GOD".


"My God is "hand's off" and does not want anyone to "fear" him like some Christian beliefs want you to believe, especially Catholics (sorry)."

What the fuck does that mean? my god is hands off, you base that on the blind beleif their is a god, yet the reason he doesnt do anything is because hes hands-off? he doesnt want you to fear him so he wont prove himself to you as that would cause fear?


"I always chuckle at the people who say religion is for "chumps" or can't believe in God because of the "atrocities of the world" or whatever garbage."

You laugh at someone elses beleifs because their not yours, you think im self centred?
I dont think people who turn to religion are chumps i do however think they are giving up personal responsibility, gives them a reason not to fear the unknown, eg. death, gives them the strength to walk down a dark alley etc... Which is good. "Attrocieties of the world or whatever garbage", you dismiss someones point of view as garbage, why? because it contradicts yours, although we have free will yes? That totally contradicts the saying "god works in mysterious ways" As god doesnt work, he watches, yes?

"My religion makes me a stronger and better person period." Good for you, congratulations.

"I am in life a skeptic and a strong believer in the scientific method."

Ok.

"But that is not enough, Science has a long way to go to explain the amazing beauty that is all around us."
Agreed, a long way to go it does have.

"A "big-bang?" created it all?" maybe.

"Where the hell did the big-bang come from? SOMETHING had to start it all,"

I dont know do you? was it god? who made god? something had to start that, who made what made god? something had to start that, who made what made the thing that made god? something had to start that? etc... etc... etc... etc... etc... etc... There cannot be a beginning, in the sense we could understand, i understand that, but that doesnt mean i will turn blindly to something which has no evidence, no proof, simply for the fact there is no other explanation with evidence or proof.

"Also, yeah the world sucks, but you know what? there is a lot of great shit in the world too."
Most definetly, i whole heartadly agree.

"God created man," Why do you say that? What reasoning leads you to that conclusion?

"we screwed up," by definition of what? How should it have been? what did we screw up? Your saying that as if their is a way it should be, and i would be interested in the way you think it should be.

"he gave his son so we could go someplace nice after we die and we still have free will."
Sure, because the bible tells me so. How many people do you know who have died? Give me one shred, one ioter of evedidence to back that up and i will convert now. I swear to it. The fact it has been written down doesnt make it true. The fact that someone has said it, doesn't make it true, Even if you could give me evidence to back up the existence of a guy called jesus 2000 years ago, who clainmed he was the son of "god", who was then crucified and appeared a couple of days later, Prove anything about life after death, the existence of a heaven. Mans fear of the unknown eg.death has lead billions into BLINDLY beleiving in religions, gods, demons, dragons, angels, etc...

"What kind of world would it be if we never had our own thoughts, ideas, you know FREE WILL."
A terrible one.


"Unfortunately there are some sick FU*KS out there who sicken me, but we all have the CHOICE to do GOOD or BAD." Agreed.

"Most, I truly mean that, Most, choose GOOD over bad." Agreed.

"I don't understand those cop-outs who say they have to have PROOF of anything before you believe it."
I think you've got that a little backwards, the cop-out would be the one who would beleive something without proof.
It would be the one who cant explain something rationally so turns to an irrational explanation.

"I have never been to New York, but I am not going to be skeptical of it's existence just because I haven't been there."

No but there is evidence New york exists, what reason would you have to beleive in a god, i shouldnt have to prove to you it doesnt exist, you should be able to prove to yourself it does.

"How completely self-centered that is." Thank you, but why is it self centered?

"I am not "blindly following" anything if I believe in NY, that is just stupid."
Who said you were?

"In general I keep my religion to myself."
great.

"It is your own choice to be whatever you want to be (FREE WILL)" Agreed.

"I just know that my religion makes me feel like a better person and I have made countless great connections with wonderful, selfless people who help to make my world a better place."
Thats great, congratulations.

"If you want to live a bitter, angry life, that is your Free Will."
Agreed, but dont think i live a bitter, angry life, im happy.


"God I despise those with nothing decent to say other than to just flame."
Definetly agreed.

Ps. im not against you, or trying to disprove your beleifs, im mearely always looking to learn, im interested in your views, not insults, so dont take anything i've said personally, or as an insult, as it wasnt meant that way.

to me religeon religeon seems like a pub, in that everyone inside seems to be having a good time, etc. but im stuck outside in the rain, not quite knowing what to belive. i have tried a lot of religeons, but none of them seem right to me. i want to belive, but i dont know what in.

I am too smart to be religious. Call me an atheist until proven irrevocably wrong. I believe in myself, my own limits and iunfalibilities, and have faith only in my own personal abilities. When I was a bike courier hurtling through traffic, I didn't pray there wasn't a huge truck round that blind corner. I KNEW there wasn't, I couldn't hear, feel or smell it. I had faith in my own bodily senses that it was safe to keep going.

I have asthma, and am short sighted, I can't be healed by a conman smacking me on the head, I can't be convinced by stories written thousands of years ago by people who exxagerate. And how the hell you can mighty fools trust a group of people who oppressed you all for so long, and forbade you to learn and understand the earth.

There's only ever been two causes of war in this worlds history. Difference of opinion, and difference of religion. Your god may be better than his god, but I'll tell you something for free. My no god is best of all, because if I'm gonna shoot you it won't be on behalf of something that doesn't exist, it'll be because you pissed me off.

Oh you forgot the third cause,GREED..

All religions are Cults.

Cults are people who get together in groups to pray or practice what they believe in.
Wether it be in the belief of
GOD,ALLAH,BUDDAH or even SATIN.

Athiests as far as i know of dont hold morning or afternoon worship,they dont get together and pray in groups to anyone.
They simply do not believe in any sort of spiritual higher being.

As long as people do not force their beliefs on others,or hurt others in the pursuit of their spiritual beliefs,(as in the inquisition)what you believe in should not be used to judge the sort of person that you are..

If you want to,and find comfort in the belief of a GOD no one has the right to be predjudiced against you.The same goes for those who do not believe,they should be allowed to have their own opinions.

"Do onto others the way you would have others do on to you"

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Originally posted by Tanna:
First off, everyone should know my view on religion, if it helps you im all for it, like i've said in previous posts i've seen it help people, and i have nothing against any religion except it isnt for me.

Anyway ridemypony as some of your post was aimed at me, i feel the need to doubt that little speech. I didnt say their was no New York or say you should doubt its existance, i merely stated that you shouldnt beleivesomething blindly, if there is no evidence to back it up why would you beleive it, there is evidence that can prove there is a New York, but there isnt to prove Lutherians are right, or theres a "GOD".


"My God is "hand's off" and does not want anyone to "fear" him like some Christian beliefs want you to believe, especially Catholics (sorry)."

What the fuck does that mean? my god is hands off, you base that on the blind beleif their is a god, yet the reason he doesnt do anything is because hes hands-off? he doesnt want you to fear him so he wont prove himself to you as that would cause fear?


"I always chuckle at the people who say religion is for "chumps" or can't believe in God because of the "atrocities of the world" or whatever garbage."

You laugh at someone elses beleifs because their not yours, you think im self centred?
I dont think people who turn to religion are chumps i do however think they are giving up personal responsibility, gives them a reason not to fear the unknown, eg. death, gives them the strength to walk down a dark alley etc... Which is good. "Attrocieties of the world or whatever garbage", you dismiss someones point of view as garbage, why? because it contradicts yours, although we have free will yes? That totally contradicts the saying "god works in mysterious ways" As god doesnt work, he watches, yes?

"My religion makes me a stronger and better person period." Good for you, congratulations.

"I am in life a skeptic and a strong believer in the scientific method."

Ok.

"But that is not enough, Science has a long way to go to explain the amazing beauty that is all around us."
Agreed, a long way to go it does have.

"A "big-bang?" created it all?" maybe.

"Where the hell did the big-bang come from? SOMETHING had to start it all,"

I dont know do you? was it god? who made god? something had to start that, who made what made god? something had to start that, who made what made the thing that made god? something had to start that? etc... etc... etc... etc... etc... etc... There cannot be a beginning, in the sense we could understand, i understand that, but that doesnt mean i will turn blindly to something which has no evidence, no proof, simply for the fact there is no other explanation with evidence or proof.

"Also, yeah the world sucks, but you know what? there is a lot of great shit in the world too."
Most definetly, i whole heartadly agree.

"God created man," Why do you say that? What reasoning leads you to that conclusion?

"we screwed up," by definition of what? How should it have been? what did we screw up? Your saying that as if their is a way it should be, and i would be interested in the way you think it should be.

"he gave his son so we could go someplace nice after we die and we still have free will."
Sure, because the bible tells me so. How many people do you know who have died? Give me one shred, one ioter of evedidence to back that up and i will convert now. I swear to it. The fact it has been written down doesnt make it true. The fact that someone has said it, doesn't make it true, Even if you could give me evidence to back up the existence of a guy called jesus 2000 years ago, who clainmed he was the son of "god", who was then crucified and appeared a couple of days later, Prove anything about life after death, the existence of a heaven. Mans fear of the unknown eg.death has lead billions into BLINDLY beleiving in religions, gods, demons, dragons, angels, etc...

"What kind of world would it be if we never had our own thoughts, ideas, you know FREE WILL."
A terrible one.


"Unfortunately there are some sick FU*KS out there who sicken me, but we all have the CHOICE to do GOOD or BAD." Agreed.

"Most, I truly mean that, Most, choose GOOD over bad." Agreed.

"I don't understand those cop-outs who say they have to have PROOF of anything before you believe it."
I think you've got that a little backwards, the cop-out would be the one who would beleive something without proof.
It would be the one who cant explain something rationally so turns to an irrational explanation.

"I have never been to New York, but I am not going to be skeptical of it's existence just because I haven't been there."

No but there is evidence New york exists, what reason would you have to beleive in a god, i shouldnt have to prove to you it doesnt exist, you should be able to prove to yourself it does.

"How completely self-centered that is." Thank you, but why is it self centered?

"I am not "blindly following" anything if I believe in NY, that is just stupid."
Who said you were?

"In general I keep my religion to myself."
great.

"It is your own choice to be whatever you want to be (FREE WILL)" Agreed.

"I just know that my religion makes me feel like a better person and I have made countless great connections with wonderful, selfless people who help to make my world a better place."
Thats great, congratulations.

"If you want to live a bitter, angry life, that is your Free Will."
Agreed, but dont think i live a bitter, angry life, im happy.


"God I despise those with nothing decent to say other than to just flame."
Definetly agreed.

Ps. im not against you, or trying to disprove your beleifs, im mearely always looking to learn, im interested in your views, not insults, so dont take anything i've said personally, or as an insult, as it wasnt meant that way.

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Does anyone read my posts
Tanna I largely agree with you and I cannot see anything you've said that I disagree with. I enjoy reading your intelligent and thought out posts.

Bloody well stated Sellout. Cheers for a pleasant read.

no offence but your post is just to damn big my attention span does not wish to cooperate with me on reading the whole thing sorry ....

Z3m, YOU ARE WRONG!
I know that, every educated person knows that... but if you'd rather live ina dreamworld where you are right and everyone else is wrong, go ahead.

I'm Malignantist.

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Originally posted by Atheist Mantis:
Z3m, YOU ARE WRONG!
I know that, every educated person knows that... but if you'd rather live ina dreamworld where you are right and everyone else is wrong, go ahead.

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why do you say this ? he does not live in a dream world his last post on the definition of atheisim is quite correct do you care to state what your definition is ?

Master, your last post was good too, I especially liked that one part: "My no god is best of all, because if I'm gonna shoot you it won't be on behalf of something that doesn't exist, it'll be because you pissed me off." Also, in response to "There's only ever been two causes of war in this worlds history. Difference of opinion, and difference of religion." - thats very true. As well, the main difference of opinion between rulers has almost always been about either money or land.

Roman Catholic. Dont really want to start posting my theories on religion though.

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Originally posted by Tanna:
Speak for yourself mini me, i post long posts to deflect attention from my 12" curse. Im well known round these ways as the "splitter", its so hard to find a girl who beleives in the pleasure pain theory.

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And let me guess, your lack of spell checking attracts attention away from your lack of width?
Note: I said 'small penises' which means we have small penises, I have a collection of ten small penises and they more than make up for one large one.

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Originally posted by TheSell0ut:
And let me guess, your lack of spell checking attracts attention away from your lack of width?
Note: I said 'small penises' which means we have small penises, I have a collection of ten small penises and they more than make up for one large one.

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you seriously need help ...

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Originally posted by warweed12:

you seriously need help ...

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If a mad ex-lover wacks off one penis(with a knife) then I'll have nine others to spare. You need the help my friend, can I loan you a penis or two?

humm you raise a good point ..... maybe i might take one just in case ......

will you provide it ?

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Originally posted by warweed12:
will you provide it ?

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Let the thread die man, let the thread dieee...*hands you a penis*