Yet once again in this fucked up world we live in, everyone is changing the argument so that it fits only their views. I know that is the point of an argument, but some of these are just bezerk.

"Have you ever had Coffee or soda pop(not caffiene free)?"

I don't think that has anything to do with anything. If you use your humanly ability to reason, you can understand that the people downing drugs are talking about drugs with laws restricting their use. Drugs that are hard to find and that have instant effects on your ability to think and act at your full ability.

I don't agree that using drugs is the smartest thing in the world. I don't think it should be singled out as bad as it is though. People who use drugs generally know and understand the negative effects that they have on their bodies. But they also know the positive effects. In the end the negative effects usually outweigh the positive effects, but that is no reason to tell anyone how to live their life. The point is that they want a high for a temporary "feel good" time. The people who are willing to have this time are also willing to accept the consequences that come with.

About the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" issue that relates with drugs. No, drugs don't cause people to turn into murderers and rapists and bad drivers, and they don't cause people to kill themselves, but they allow for an easier way to achieve these things. Kind of like a bridge. There are those skilled few who are able to live a life of using drugs with few consequences, but that takes great skill. Drugs don't cause people to abuse their children (even though that is one of the possible effects of using drugs). No, drugs don't cause the abuse, but think about what they do cause and how it relates to abuse. You get a habit of using drugs. You start out just as a weekend smoker. Not really thinking about what might happen. Then you start buying it instead of food and other groceries. Then you are fired from your job because you are caught using illegal substances. You are so frustrated and angry that you take it out on your kids by physically abusing them. I'm not saying that everyone does this, but it's an example of how drugs can be a bridge to worse things. I don't see anything wrong with somebody using drugs if they can contain the consequences within their own lives. Without interfering with anyone else. Without crossing the bridge.

Think about it

Johnny

? do you know sugar is a drug, along the lines of cocaine? educate yourself

"legal drugs"

caffeine
tobacco
testosterone
religeon
sugar

they're all bad for you.

oxygen

Someone get me a link supporting sugar as a drug, particularly a cocaine like one, or risk being a liar in the face of the link I posted last page. I sincerely doubt that sugars have ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY close to the effect of cocaine. Bring it on.

er, effects of over consumption of sugar include

-complete pancreatic failure
-loss of sight
-loss of limbs
-heart disease/failure


I'd call those fairly serious effects, wouldn't you?

Im challenging segue here to com up with a trustworthy reasouce linking the effects of sugar to those of cocaine.

I'm also asking canyonero hereto prove how testosterone is bad for you despite the fact that its produced in enoumous amounts in a norman male. How can you call something that you NEED to be normal, harmful? Testosterone supplements, yes, but were you to deprive a teenage boy a testosterone, you dont "fix" him, you ruin him. In otherwords, NOT having testosterone is BY DEFINITION UN-healthy.

So educate me, if you can.

true wintermute, but you get serious side effects from over consumption of ANYTHING.

Hell, drinking too much water, eating too much meat, or having a keg of yellow 5 will dammage you.

Anything will hurt you if you do too much, particularly in the long term. I just find it hard to believe that you can eat soo mcyu sugar that you are say,unfit to drive a car, or unable to walk or run properly. You dont eat a chocolate bunny for easter and then lounge around all day in daze because of it.

Prove me wrong someone, I sense either a revelation or idiocy in this.

the difference between male and female is 3 mg of testosterone. Thats not an enormous amount...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jadedfool:
but homophobia is okay?

No, I was just pissed off at the utter ignorance of you people in regards to drugs and alcohol and racism etc. And I can't see why there would be homosexuals. they go against nature. do you know of any other species on earth that have a few homosexuals?
I don't. so why are there human homosexuals? Why are they made to miss out on the sexual bliss of heterosexual love... but that's an argument for another day.

[QUOTE]
You don't need drugs to make you a better person.

---

no, but if you are going to try and just ignore the centuries old cultures who [b]have used drugs for spiritual exploration, then you just prove yourself ignorant of history. You can't dismiss offhand the theraputic and spiritual uses of drugs.

And there are countless heroin addicts who spend every day as productive, useful members of society.[/B][/QUOTE]

That, good sir, is not the point. We don't live in those cultures, now, do we?? the majority of the people on totse is from n. america, am I right? Yes, I am. of course, there are australians, english, and people from south america, africa (i think) asia etc. but that isn't the point. Most of us live in consumer-friendly america/canada, where there aren't very many primitive-type cultures. While I'm all for a culture to stay the way it has for years, We can also stay the same. And I won't even count the various health problems (serious, mostly) that are associated with drugs.


as for the point about every day drugs such as caffiene, well, that stuff isn't NEARLY as destructive as cocaine, tobacco, heroine, alcohol, etc. Having a can of coke every now and then won't hurt you, despite what the doctor may say about it... and it isn't illegal, now is it??? Although alot of the laws these politicions pass are complete bullshit, I don't think they would pass a law for no reason. I think they'd make these drugs illegal because they harm. SURE, it gets you high and you feel great, and you figure that your mind is expanded beyond considerable bounds, and all is cool.
yet, you are weak, and can barely get up. your hands shake and twitch all the time, your nose cavaties have rotted out, you have no money, people frown on you like you're some kind of filth, you're kinda stupid, no reasonable girl would come close to a person of your dental problems (and sexual pleasure would be down to nil... I've heard plenty of stories about these drugs fucking up your sex organs, and Viagra makes it worse. Do you really want to sacrifice that??? You become addicted to drugs, you become depressed without them, you don't work, go to school, whatever. you simply DON'T HAVE A LIFE. the younger you are, the worse it is. My 14 yr. old cousin?? Mental institution. a friend of mine from the days of yore? brain dead (quite nearly, it's sad)... and many more cases such as these world wide.

I'm sorry to expose such truths. you say that it's really good for you, and It has a history... and all this crap. you're merely dodging the truth.

and again, when it comes to racism, well... no one in their right mind would bother.

good day.

oops! it fucked up. most of that paragraph in the quote (last post) was me answering him. sorry bout' that, folks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr Spock:

I'm also asking canyonero hereto prove how testosterone is bad for you despite the fact that its produced in enoumous amounts in a norman male. How can you call something that you NEED to be normal, harmful? Testosterone supplements, yes, but were you to deprive a teenage boy a testosterone, you dont "fix" him, you ruin him. In otherwords, NOT having testosterone is BY DEFINITION UN-healthy.

So educate me, if you can.

---

ok i'll try. i meant these mainly as a joke, but many bad things are a result of too much testosterone. i will make a list of bad things resulting from testosterone fueled aggressive behavior.

car crashes
std's
fights
sporting injuries

just to name a few. it really was just a joke, as testosterone levels increase (especially with supplements) the desire to compete is stimulated, and therefore aggressive behavior is the result. it's not a totally bad thing, hence the joke.

and to answer the forum question:

DRUGS ARE GOOD
RACISM IS BAD

quote:

---

No, I was just pissed off at the utter ignorance of you people in regards to drugs and alcohol and racism etc. And I can't see why there would be homosexuals. they go against nature. do you know of any other species on earth that have a few homosexuals?
I don't. so why are there human homosexuals? Why are they made to miss out on the sexual bliss of heterosexual love... but that's an argument for another day.

---

There are countless documented examples of homosexuality in animals. They have the sexual bliss of homosexual love....but that's an argument for another day.

quote:

---

That, good sir, is not the point. We don't live in those cultures, now, do we?? the majority of the people on totse is from n. america, am I right? Yes, I am. of course, there are australians, english, and people from south america, africa (i think) asia etc. but that isn't the point. Most of us live in consumer-friendly america/canada, where there aren't very many primitive-type cultures. While I'm all for a culture to stay the way it has for years, We can also stay the same. And I won't even count the various health problems (serious, mostly) that are associated with drugs.

---

Do you realise how many songs you listen to were written under the influence of drugs?

quote:

---

yet, you are weak, and can barely get up. your hands shake and twitch all the time, your nose cavaties have rotted out, you have no money, people frown on you like you're some kind of filth, you're kinda stupid, no reasonable girl would come close to a person of your dental problems (and sexual pleasure would be down to nil... I've heard plenty of stories about these drugs fucking up your sex organs, and Viagra makes it worse. Do you really want to sacrifice that??? You become addicted to drugs, you become depressed without them, you don't work, go to school, whatever. you simply DON'T HAVE A LIFE. the younger you are, the worse it is. My 14 yr. old cousin?? Mental institution. a friend of mine from the days of yore? brain dead (quite nearly, it's sad)... and many more cases such as these world wide.

---

Umm...which drugs are we talking about here? I doubt your 14 year old cousin ended up in a mental institution after smoking tobacco, for example.

another fucking thing people do is---


all the druggies think there so fucking cool and thats supreme to smoke/shoot up.

you never see anyone (on this post everyone) whos had a lot of sugar, think there tough shit eh??? maybe a fucking dork.

By over consumption of sugar, I mean the average amount that the average american consumes..

It's something ridiculous like 200lbs of corn syrup a year or something..

Give it 30 years, and then see how many type 2 diabetics there are.. And yes, JUST sugar could remove your ability to drive and/or function as a normal human being.

Just because a drug doesn't have psychedelic effects does not mean it is not damaging the body. You seem unable to distinguish between drugs that primarily affect the brain and drugs that primarily affect the body and other organs besides the brain.

you know for calling yourself dr spock your not very bright, or just havent done enough research, just because a government says drugs are illegal, and others are leagal you blindly without doing any research assume that the illegal drugs are bad and legal ones cant hurt you. I suggest you spend some time looking into the dangers of legal drugs, and I can say for sure that ganja is less damaging that most legal drugs, not all drug users are criminal or a drain on society, in fact many hold good jobs to make the money they need to have fun, others make the music that enriches our lives, so in the words of bill hicks take all your cd's and songs that have enriched your life throught all these years and burn em, not to mention the fact that man has been using substances to enrich his life for thousands of years, in fact there is a theory that man invented god while under the influence of plant substances, so if you disagree with the basic facts and thousands of years of history sorry man but your a fucking moron

here are some links, but i suggest if you really want to do your homework before poasting stupid ass shit on here try a fucking search engine, it took me a few seconds to find these on google, i think you have some reading to do. By the way have you ever wonderd why there is a major increase in diabites, obeasity, and many other conditions caused by consumption of sugar including millions of kinds being perscribed ritilan because they cant sit still after that sugar cereal and donought they had for breakfast, and there stupid parents wonder why??? god damn wake up people!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.livrite.com/sugar1.htm

damnit I lost this post the first time I wrote it.

OK, I agree that sugar can be dangerous at that kind of consumtion. Sugar shouldn't, however, be considered a drug, because a drug -according to both dictionary.com and the American Heritage College Dictionary- must affect the nervous system. This leaves me at your word versus this site: http://www.healthfactsandfears.com/featured_articles/feb2002/sugar020702.html
and it seems to be a dead end here. Thanks for the enlightenment, wintermute, I'll think on it futher in my own time.

Segue, may I ask that we skip insulting my name and discuss this? While insults and may be useful in an arguement in daily life to make your opponent seem less trustworthy, it has never been considered to reflect well on youself either.

Also as some constructive criticism, please try to use more periods in your next post; your transitions between ideas were somewhat difficult to follow.

Now, I in no way said anything indicating a belief in whether or not a legal drug is worse than an illegal one, or the legality or lack thereof, of sugar. I asked, politely, for a reputable link (IE: one backed by at least one scientific study) stating that the effects of sugar on the human body are close to the effects of cocaine on the human body.

It is in the research department that your site falls apart. It has no apparent affiliations or links supporting its claims about the effects of sugar. I couldn't even find the name of the author in several minues of searching that site. The only thing that speaks for the site's reliability as a source, is the fact the it seems well kept up, and reasonably organised. This is hardly the kind of material to base a serious debate on. If you have a better article, please post it.

Lastly, you stated:

"here are some links, but i suggest if you really want to do your homework before poasting stupid ass shit on here try a fucking search engine, it took me a few seconds to find these on google, i think you have some reading to do. "

May I remind you that you originally posted this claim:
"? do you know sugar is a drug, along the lines of cocaine? educate yourself"
Even by your own definition, you should be the one supporting your arguement. The burden of proof is on you for posting your viewpoint, not me.

ok first of all i'll insult your name all i feel like, second i dont have to use any peroids if i dont want to so fuck you, and third, i could provide a web page to "prove" about anything if you dont want to belive it you wont, which is why i told your dumbass to go do your own research, and last but not least, i belive the defenition of a drug is a substance that changes your natural state of being, so sugar is a drug and a very dangrous one, you dont refute any of my claims, so why dont you prove to me sugar is safe? there not a singe period you ignorant fuck

not to mention the fact that the site you provide is an editorial with little research, where are the studies, i want to read those, oh wait they dont exist... silly me

Well what a glorious waste of time that was!

You will note, however, that while my site is an established peer review and publishing group, made up entirely of scientists and medical professtionals, and it specifically mentions being backed by scientific work. On top of that it is written by a doctor.

I would say that is considerably more trustworthy than a pair of concerned citizens posting how they feel.

Sigh, I guess its over then.

Spock, all you've managed to argue is that heroin isn't on par with ho-ho's. Not a particularly amazing achievement. Maybe if you were to actually take a position on this subject, you might actually show a minimal spine.

Well, thats really all I set out to prove. I did what I expected to do, and thats fine with me. I don't consider myself to be an experienced debater, so I figured i should start small.

What kind of position woulf you take? Drugs are bad because they disable or dammage our ability to look at ourselves, specifically while on drugs?

I could try to prove that, but I was somewhat interested in whether or not cocaine really was on par wih Ho-Ho's. Now that I know that I can move on to something else.

look at the topic.
Are you against illicit drug use?

Well anyone arguing that drugs (street drugs that is) are not bad, which means they are saying that they are beneficial, is an idiot.

When is the last time you seen someone so much better off with a fried brain from using acid than a healthy mind and a college degree? With drugs the consequences far outweigh the short term effect that is the alleged "benefit".

The way I put it is your looking at long term damage and possibly death for a fucking temporary effect, no temporary effect is worth that in any respectably intellegent person's mind. I had a friend that was a hardcore drug user, he is dead now because of the damage the drugs did to him finally killed his stupid ass, and now while he is a rotting corpe in the grave I am out having a good time.

Now it doesn't take a genius to figure this one out, who turned out better off? Well lemme see, I'm alive, the food is good, the drink is great, life is pretty good, and then you got a pile of bones in a box. Yep, I would say that he got fucked on his retirement plan.

Everyone knows that drugs are not without consequence, and when it comes time to pay the piper it's a fucking bitch and there ain't shit you can do about it. Sure most users use the ol' "you could get hit by a car tommorrow" argument to try to justify their actions, but you can't use a hypothetical and uncontrollable situation to validate self-destruction. You *could* die right now while your reading this post, but it isn't going to happen.

I'm not here trying to criticize anyone for their habits. I just wonder sometimes why people do the shit that they do even though it is contradictory to every instinct and shred of intellegence they may posess. Bottom line, drugs are bad.

Sure if you don't care about how long you live and couldn't care if you died yesterday then they are just fine, but if you actually want to life a fulfilling life and have a fully operational brain and body during that time then it is in your best interest that you not use them.

I don't use drugs myself purely for intellectual reasons because they manifest themselves evident to not be the best course to take, if drugs had no damaging/lethal side effects then I would be doing them just like everyone else, but as long as I need my brain and body to work at 100% efficiency then I see no reason to do them. Of course I am the hammer of logic incarnate so you can see why I don't use them.

But if you are lacking in intellegence, logic, common sense (which is not all that common anymore), or simply don't care about the future and just live for the moment which is fleeting, then by all means proceed to fry your brain and nervous system. As with everything, there are different types of drug users.

You got your hardcore junkie like my dead friend there that is doomed to kill themselves from sheer stupidity, you got your casual drug user that uses it every now and then and the soft drug user which is basically the drug user on damage control, these people get into the scene for whatever reason and I had an asociate that was casual take a hard fall off of some E and now if he weren't comatose he would probably never do it again.

All I got to say is take a look at what drugs do to people and know what the possibilities are when you are going to take a drug (because if your gonna do it nothings is gonna stop you). If your gonna fuck yourself, the least you could do is be informed of the effects of the drug, that way you can't say you didn't see it coming.

I was reluctant to get back into this, but I've been quoted, and I decided tonight was a fine night for a speed binge.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Township Rebellion:
*sighs* Gravehead, The point is, You don't need drugs to make you a better person. Obviously, You have no sense of willpower of any kind. While I'm actually shocked that there is a 2-10 percent of the people that use drugs are actually good people (that is VERY rare), I guess you still don't get it.


maybe, one day you will.

---

Of COURSE you don't need drugs to make you a good person. What I maintain is that good people use drugs, too. If people misuse drugs, it is not because of the drug, it is because of the person. Too much emphasis is placed on the drug itself, and not enough on the circumstances of the user/abuser. I also HIGHLY resent being told that I have no sense of willpower. Drugs have pushed my sense of willpower to the edge and back, and have made me one tough motherfucker. I have torn my mind apart with drugs, and had the strength to step through it all. I'm tempted to get into my many thoughts on deconstruction of the mind, but that will wait (you'll all hear about it soon). What it comes down to is that with experimental use of drugs I (and many others) ripped away everything I ever knew and felt about anything. In doing so, I was able to look at life with no biases, no opinions, and no hardwired responses. With this new perspective, I've been able to put new emphasis on what I really believe matters in life.

Other people reach almost the exact same conclusions with no chemical help. Drugs have been part of my unique set of experiences that have shaped my development as a person. I did not need them, and I may have experienced many things too quickly or in the wrong context. But these experiences are mine, and I wouldn't trade them for anything.

More later, bitch.

ok spock my last two posts were a little rude, sorry half a bottle of wiskey and being generally pissed off i took that anger out on you, now you seem to be one of those people who belives anything they read, did you look at the research paper that website was based on, or did you take the article for granted? Did you stop to think that there might be a reason why the big pharmacuital companies want the public to think sugar is harmless, so they buy "research studies" done very specficly to obtain a specfic result, how do you know, by not even reading the research report, that this site is not one of those, most doctors dont care about patients health they care about money, there was a piece on 20/20 or something about how doctors are givin cruises and big dinner partys by pharm companies to get them to perscribe thier product, the more sugar people eat the more sales for medicine for diabietes and ADD and more profit for the big corps... besides if you want to debate you have not done a good job, you just put up one web site that dosent even refrense a journal of medicine, i bet we could find opposing views on almost anything on the internet, thats not the point, and this is off the topic, and i find it funny that i'm saying the same things as whitemute yet you accept those arguments and continue to argue with me... whats the deal?

NP on the past posts segue, I don't hold grudges.

As to me agreeing with wintermute, I agree with him and you that sugar probably isn't good for you, particularly in the amounts consumed by people in these times.

JadedFool was probably right in saying that I aimed too low. My issue with you was simply that I didn't think that sugar, while not good for you, is a bad as cocaine.

On the issue of trust

Yes I do trust what I read, but only in the face of evidence from multiple points of view.

No, I dont trust 20/20, or 60 minutes, or any investigative reporting, or even anything on TV in general. Mass media advertising and market manipulation is too pervasive there to believe anything.

No, I don't trust corperations, becuase they have shown a horrible track record in choosing justice over cash.

As for the topic, I personally don't support drug use because it skews the only lens through which we may percieve the world. How can you accurately make a conclusion about life after making unknown changes to your ability to percieve?

I don't trust racism, simply because I choose not to. I don't see any good reasons for or against racism, (other than a lack of evidence supporting racist evolutionary claims) but as an act of faith I choose to belive that all human beings are basically alike, and that causing another ceature harm is bad.

Now, those being my beliefs, I also refuse to force another to take my beliefs upon themselves. As Master Yoda so wisely pointed out, forcing things leads to suffering, which, according to conventional wisdom, is bad.

I propose that anyone should be allowed to do anything thay wish, provided that it does not willfully harm another being.

However that doesnt mean I'm against abortion, but that isn't up for discussion here.

the second to last paragraph you wrote is my exact views too, so after all this we agree on the base line... word

OY!. I'm female!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr Spock:
As to me agreeing with wintermute, I agree with him and you that sugar probably isn't good for you, particularly in the amounts consumed by people in these times.

---

dude,wintermute is a girl.

As for Dark Magneto's Post, well done. That was well spoken. all you druggies can go away, now. case closed. OBVIOUSLY won by that beautiful piece of work.

That would save you from replying to any of my points.

Dope is goooooood for you man. It opens your mind and lets you fly.

Just jokin. Of course dope is bad, magneto. But if it is so bad, why do so many people use it (and I ain't talkin about the bums on the streets, but about serious people with jobs and families)?

Ok, how would you explain my case then? I ain't stupid or dumb or whatever. I have a plan for the future and I want to live. Everytime I get high I think of the things that can go wrong. Still I use it and I'm really having fun. Afther 5 years dope hasn't influenced my life in any way. I was always able to controle my junk habit. I did weed, hasj, MDMA, speed, cocaine, mescal, DXM, opium(once) ether and N2O. I do dope for fun with my frieds. If I have a major exam or stuff I dont use. Sometimes I'm clean for a month. I've noticed that tabacco damages my health much more than weed. I have noticed one thing though. The older I get the less drugs I use. Maybe my junk habit will go over with time.

quote:

---

As for Dark Magneto's Post, well done. That was well spoken. all you druggies can go away, now. case closed. OBVIOUSLY won by that beautiful piece of work

---

Dark Magneto's post is far from flawless, leaving aside the fact I disagree with the crux of his argument.

*pauses for dramatic effect*

quote:

---

Well anyone arguing that drugs (street drugs that is) are not bad, which means they are saying that they are beneficial, is an idiot.

---

Saying something is not bad does not mean it is beneficial. Posting on this message board is not bad, but not beneficial.

quote:

---

When is the last time you seen someone so much better off with a fried brain from using acid than a healthy mind and a college degree?

---

Another non-sequitur. A drug-free lifestyle does not help you get a degree. The vast majority of graduates have used some form of drug, legal or illegal, so casual drug use does not negate a person's ability to attain qualifications.

quote:

---

With drugs the consequences far outweigh the short term effect that is the alleged "benefit".

---

This depends on the individual, the drug etc.

quote:

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it is contradictory to every instinct and shred of intellegence they may posess.

---

Umm...someone hasn't read the thread too closely. Jadedfool mentioned this a couple of pages ago. "your argument might have merit if it weren't for the fact that all mammals self anesthetize in one form or another, dolphins bang their heads against rocks, we smoke pot...".

quote:

---

All I got to say is take a look at what drugs do to people and know what the possibilities are when you are going to take a drug (because if your gonna do it nothings is gonna stop you). If your gonna fuck yourself, the least you could do is be informed of the effects of the drug, that way you can't say you didn't see it coming.

---

I can see what you're saying here, but sometimes people like to take a risk without assessing it in great detail. I'm not going to look at accident statistics before going onto the rugby pitch. The public is bombarded with information on the potential effects of drugs, but instead of being presented objectively and therefore credible, it is in the form of propaganda which an average high school kid can see through....which serves as an encouragement for the average high school kid to ignore everything he is told about drugs.



[This message has been edited by FuckOffandDie (edited 05-09-2002).]

"When is the last time you seen someone so much better off with a fried brain from using acid than a healthy mind and a college degree? With drugs the consequences far outweigh the short term effect that is the alleged "benefit"."

sorry dark i have to disagree.

i've been using drugs for the last 13 years, i have no college degree and i am currently employed as an account programmer, working specifically with database applications.

my roommate has been using drugs for longer than i have, and he currently owns his own business, he runs a production company that does sound for national acts in the state.

he's done the bloodhound gang, monster magnet, three doors down, wasp, danzig, vanilla ice, nickelback, chubby checker to name a few.

and as far as lsd goes,

i'd do it every day if you wouldn't need the two days following to recuperate.

there are many successful people who do drugs that you wouldn't have any idea they did them at all.

i'm talking doctors, lawyers, politicians, corporate executives, police officers, judges, etc, etc.

in fact i know more people that do drugs than i know people who don't.

Acid doesn't "fry" your brain. Acid is one of the safest drugs you can take in the physical aspect(Including your brain). The only danger is when people start to fear the effects and become frightened. It is misinformed people who are anti-drug. The harms of drug use is blown way out of porportion. While certain drugs can without a doubt kill you, others are safe when one has knowledge about it and uses it responsibly. I use several drugs recreationally for 4 years. I also have a 3.9 GPA. The reason for this is the fact that I know what I am doing and I don't let drug use get out of hand. People need to focus on bigger problems than drug use.

If acid doesn't harm you, then maybe you'll do me the favor of explaining why all the kids I knew who were heavy into acid have no brains left today....

and by heavy into acid I mean HEAVY

Any drug is dangerous when used to heavily.

Im sick of poeple tryign to run others' lives! If you dont like drugs then dont do them! Im sure everyone is sick of hearing all this propaganda bullshit that has been fed to us all the way through school. Funny how for every statemeant theres a counter statemeant, however for you idiots, it seems youre 100% right and everyone else is wrong. Those who support drugs admit theyre dangerous! DUH! We know that, thanks for the BIIIIIG news flash! But you know what? All you guys say, is "Drugs are sghit and ruin your life! All users are idiots!" Wow, youre smart. Telling us somehting we already know then calling us names! Take that pro-drug views!

How about you realize that all the crap they told you in school, is just that, CRAP! Theys ay drugs turn you into a junkie, blah, blah blah. Yes some idiots do become junkies. But a lot fo people get really fat cuz they cant eat like normal people. SO you know what? We should all hate fat people for abusing food! Whats wrong with that? They MUST be morons or osmehting. Theyre killing themselves, makign people disrespect them, and abusing something abnormally. So, we should all hate those greasy fucking fat slobs! And we should all support belimia and anarexia. Just like we should support bible thumping above smoking a joint. RIGHT!?

You sit here doing nothing but pukign up the shit you where told at the little D.A.R.E conference at your school, and calling drug users idiots, and stuff, while saying you hate racism? Yes drug users arent a race, THANK YOU! But youre simply discriminating agaisnt someone for the way they have chose to live their life and saying that their views are WRONG and yours are right, and for that you hate them. Hmmmm, sounds like racism to me!

Well, I hope you people dont fuckign breede! Cuz honestly, if some kid ever came upto me with this shit, I would break his jaw off on the side walk! I was the kid you saw getting up leaving furing the D.A.R.E session, out of pure frustration because as a supporter of drugs, Ive devoted many hours to reading up on info on them to educate myself, and am now watching a complete trail of bullshit being spewed across minds with no disregard for the fact that theyre lies.

Oh, and I think you shouldnt be calling drug users drop out, addict morons! I can honestly say I've talked to many very successful drug users. Such as chemists, designers, carpenters, doctors, etc... A drug does not determine ones stupidity level. Ive also talked to many unsuccessful non drug users. Welfare cases, drop outs, faliours, etc...

Get your head out of the bible and realize theres a world beyond your little fantasy, and web of lies and bullshit! DUGS ARE NOT GOIGN AWAY! So why sit here and say that they should? Its a waste of your time. Its like me sitting here saying that we should abolish books with relgious content in them because theyre souring the minds of youth today. As much as I want it its not going to happen.

Youd be better off spending you time educating yourself on the truth about drugs instead of reading shit from biased sources!
www.erowid.org

They give nothing but facts! Theyre not trying to advertise for drugs or say theyre shit. Theyre telling you what they are, how they work, and giving you feedback (both positive and negative) from users, so you can make an educated choice!

i disagree impulse,

it depends on the person using.

lsd for instance is not a drug for everybody,

much in the same way that some people shouldn't drink.

but jaded is correct, used to extreme excess it will fry your brain.

a few years back a friend(aquaintance really) of mine ended getting chased by the cops after a metallica concert with a sheet of acid on him.

don't ask me why but he stuck it under his baseball cap, while being chased a light sprinkle turned into a heavy storm and drenched his hat and sent a sheet of acid straight to the brain.

lost his fucking mind, sitting in jail in oranges he came under the impression that he was a glass of orange juice, and got himself a one way ticket to the state hospital(looney bin).

while there he had to be strapped to the walls to sleep, because he was afraid if he layed down he would spill and go into a blind panic.

i actually haven't seen the guy since about 20 minutes before the concert ended, this i've heard from his really close friends at the time.

he was pretty incoherent for several years i guess, couldn't hold a conversation with the guy.

today i hear he quit drugs all together finished college and has a good job, married the whole shpeel.

i've always wondered what his first thought was when he came down.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Spock:


As for the topic, I personally don't support drug use because it skews the only lens through which we may percieve the world.

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The lens is skewed from the beginning. In fact, the damn thing is completely opaque. For people who use drugs as a means of spiritual exploration, drugs make beneficial changes to the lens. I went from devout Catholicism to nihilism/existentialism with drugs, and with drugs I came out the other end to a spiritual point where I feel comfortable and confident. I do agree with what you said about freedom at the end of your post, that is one of the healthiest views one can take.

The bottom line to me on this topic is that you can't fairly demonize drugs because they are misused. Anything that can be misused will be. Humans are notorious for making very, very poor decisions, and this shows no sign of improvement.

Drugs may be dangerous, but does anyone have the right to tell everyone else that they can't go fry their brain if they want to? It's one of the few destructive things people do that doesn't hurt anybody else. By being anti-drug, you wouldn't use them yourself. but by being a fascist, you would try to tell everyone that they can't use drugs, and when was being in a cell with Bubba less harmful than smokeing weed? Where's the logic in hurting people because they want to do something that might hurt themselves? if somebody has a drug-related record, they might have trouble getting a job they want. That wasn't the drug that did that, it was all the facists that supported the law that that person broke.

For one: I appologise to wintermute and thank her for correcting my gender assumption. I also move for the creation of a genderless pronoun that does not connote a lack of humanity like "it". Any suggestions? Maybe this one should be moved to a new thread....

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Gravehead, you are correct (I think) that the lens is skewed to start with, however this seems to be a philosophical dead end because everything you percieve comes through it. This is one central theme of the matrix, that without someone on the outside to tell you what is different from what is "real", you are unable to have any clear thoughts about the nature of this "real" world which you cannot sense clearly or at all. You cannot argue that the lense is changes beneficially or detrimentally without being on the outside. All we are left with is the feeling of being changed, either in the way the world is percieved or in how we percieve our perceptions. We cannot reach a conclusion from this point.

My personal views on this point is that I trust what I was given at birth, and that it will be better equipment than what I could get by blindly modifying it.

Take your computer for example, drugs can be likened to allowing a cracker full access to your system and leaving the room till he/she* (*need gender free pronoun here) is done. Yes, he/she COULD make it better, add functionality, and lotsa cool stuff, but he/she could also screw it up in royal fashion, for example limiting your ability to access half your data, or converting your .exe files to .txt. All you could tell is that the data you were viewing was different, perhaps the webpages you could see before were never there, and what you see now is "real". You cannot know unless you ask the cracker, who has just lost his/her mind and won't tell you a damn thing.

I trust my own lense on the world because it has been around longer. Yes drugs have been used for millenia by humans, but typically its takes a while tribe of non-druggies to support a shaman while he tripping. I therefore think that my own unchanged mind is superior because it allows full function on my own without support. If I change something, I want to know what will happen before I do it, because I couldn't trust my own mind to be even predicatably skewed when I came out.

Cool. I have nothing to disagree with about what you've said. We've reached the point of acknowledging personal preference, which is where I wish things could've gotten with Brent before he realized he was Hitler Jr.

Anti-Drugs links found, anyone??

it seems many of you non-drug users are missing or maybe misplacing certain ideas. if i smoke a joint, it might make me relaxed and silly, but it doesn't change my world view or my mind on anything. when i used to drop acid, i never went insane, i never had a bad experience, and i never hurt anyone. it's because the person i am is strong enough to simply enjoy the sensation and move on.

when you look at extreme cases of drug use you can see widespread damage both mental and physical. but when you look at the other 90% of peeps who use drugs, you not only don't see it, you see people who are generally well balanced and normal. you talk and work with them every day, you just don't know they use drugs because the drugs don't use them.

people i know that use drugs are in every field imaginable from education to entertainment and they don't let the shit run their lives. you shouldn't confuse the effects of hardcore use with those of more casual use.

and here is my last point.... when i come home from a tough day at work i need to wind down. so if i sit there and chill with my pipe, it helps me to relax. now you could say it is a crutch, but what are my options?

1 go to the doctor, and he'll give me drugs to calm me down

2 try to calm down on my own and end up tense for the entire evening

3 self diagnose and self medicate, i know myself and my limits, i stay within them, and life goes on.

i choose #3
that is why i have enjoyed drugs so much because they have allowed me to find inner peace i was never able to achieve with any of the other things i tried. without jah herb i would be much more of a raving asshole right now like the rest of my family, instead i am calm and rational.

i know the risks of using drugs and for me it is a small price to pay for the life i have now compared to the highstrung life i would lead (and still be leading) without them.

I don't follow the forum so I don't know, but doesn't this belong in BLTC?

who knows, who cares.


Hell, quit arguing. Drugs are bad, that's that. don't try and change a fact.