http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22577

"Protecting the unborn is not a new idea," Graham said.

Yeah then abortions are legal why?

I like the bill, but hate the hypocracy.

What a fucked up place this is.

it's about protecting a womans right to choose, same as always. It's THEIR choice to decide whether or not to abort the pregnancy occuring in their body, not someone elses...

*Wonders who protects the babies right to choose*

I happen to support a womens right to choose for a number of reasons.

No. 1: Women have been having abortions since they've been having babies, so even by making abortion illegal women are still going to be sticking hanger up their twats or taking herbal abortions. No way around it.

No. 2: The world is already overcrowded without bring a bunch of unwanted babies into the world.

No. 3: It IS in the womans body and the baby can only be aborted for the first four months and during the first four months the baby is a mole. It's a little lump of flesh. It doesn't even have a nervous system then.

No. 4: Not all people believe that the body has a spirit at the moment of conception. As a Jew we're taught that the spirit enters the body at the first breath and not at the moment of conception which mean that not only is the fetus a little lump of skin with no nervous system but it has no spirit, therefore abortion is not murder of a human. It's like cutting off a mole.

No. 5: What if a girl gets raped?!

No. 6: What if the girl is eleven years old? I knew a girl in 6th grade who got pregnant and her parents wouldn't allow her an abortion and she ended up dying in the hospital.

To conclude: I'm not saying that abortion is totally morally right. If I was to become pregnant, I would probably keep it because I don't think I could go through the emotional rollercoaster having an abortion really is. But, I think it's unfair to both the mother and the child to be forced to have a baby that she doesn't want.

Cheers,
Lost

I don't believe abortion should never take place. I just don't think it should be used as birth control, like it is now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LostCause:
so even by making abortion illegal women are still going to be sticking hanger up their twats or taking herbal abortions

---

Ummm Roe V. Wade involved, FEDERAL LAWS ON ABORTION. NOT STATE LAWS. If Roe. V. Wade was undone, it WOULD NOT make abortion illegal, it would give the power back to the STATES to decide.

Also, we are a Christian country, not Jewish.

If the world is overcrowded, get on the pill.

ABORTION SHOULD NOT BE BIRTH CONTROL!!!!

BTW, today the House of Representatives passed a bill that would make it illegal to harm a fetus.

A chill wind blows, America, a chill wind blows...

lost cause you brought up the point of a woman being raped or getting pregnant at a very early age but is the rape or unwanted pregnancy the babies fault? the kid shouldnt be punished because the parrents messed up. and besides the religious issue isnt the point. a baby in the US is entitled to life and liberty? the fact that the child is not a citazen doesnt mean you can murder him or her. suppose a forign exchange student comes to my neighborhood and i dont like him and he is not a citazen does that give me the right to kill him?

What if Albert Einstein was aborted. Who would have come up with the "Theory of Relativity"?

I feel that abortion is permisible if one of three conditions is met.

1.rape
2.incest
3.the fetus is within the first ten weeks of pregnancy.

justifications
1.the genetic prodgeny of a rapist is far more likely to be a detriment to society.
2.Same arguement
3.Before ten weeks there is no brain function within a fetus, it is a stem cell mass, not until brain wave function begins can it be considered a human being in any meaningful sence of the word.

Beyond the genetic arguements for aborting progenies rape and incest, if you are a religious sort, the Juedeo Christian tradition holds that a child is liable for the sins of the father and origional sin until it has been baptized If the sin of the father is rape then the child may be called to account by expeling it from the woman.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan Smithee:
I feel that abortion is permisible if one of three conditions is met.

1.rape
2.incest
3.the fetus is within the first ten weeks of pregnancy.

justifications
1.the genetic prodgeny of a rapist is far more likely to be a detriment to society.
2.Same arguement
3.Before ten weeks there is no brain function within a fetus, it is a stem cell mass, not until brain wave function begins can it be considered a human being in any meaningful sence of the word.

Beyond the genetic arguements for aborting progenies rape and incest, if you are a religious sort, the Juedeo Christian tradition holds that a child is liable for the sins of the father and origional sin until it has been baptized If the sin of the father is rape then the child may be called to account by expeling it from the woman.

---

yah, i always thought that sucked. that im responsible of my parents actions.

It amazes me that people use the whole brainwave thing as an excuse to abort. Im not anti prochoice. I dont want the Government in my business but that living organism will one day be a Human Being. and why play God by snuffing it out? Oh, its the womans body. So she has the right to snuff the life form out. Shit what about daddys rights. i know he doesnt carry the child but umm he planted the seed. its half his. This sucks.. Im not a woman so i cant have a say in the matter? If it was going to kill her then she would have the right to abort but if she doesnt want the kid i would take it as the father. well i just thought everyone should see the other side. Im sure the ladies on here as well as some of the men will just flame me for this but cant we just sit down and rethink it. its just gotten to the point where women say "I dont like contriceptives and so if i get pregnant i will just abort the thing" its a crazy world isnt it?

Hmmm I have mixed emotions about abortion, but my point was this.

If you abort it, the fetus is not alive.
If a bad guy assaults a pregnant women he is now faces 2 assault charges, becaus the fetus is all of a sudden alive and counts as a human being. To me it seems as if we define alive, by whether or not we want to keep it. Which I feel is pretty freakin sad.

I somewhat agree with lokil, but then I also agree with Jadedfool. Honestly I think I even know people who, sadly, would be better off, had their mother had an abortion. These are kids who were given up for adoption and just have had a horrible life. I don't think that there could be a worse feeling than, "my parents wanted nothing to do with me". Man how empty that thought must leave a person. I feel for the people, but it's even hard to empathize. I'm generalizing, I don't know very many people who were adopted and not all were like that. But 2 that I do know, wow, fucked up people, and yes it was mommy and daddy's fault. Some people just can't bear the pain and I don't think them bad for that, because they are human. It's just sad.

I also think that it would be ok to abort severely handicapped. I've worked with them before in Highschool, and jeeze. These people cannot be happy. For their short lives all they do is sit in a wheelchair and drool. Seems more like torture to me, that is not being alive, it is being a vegetable.
I also think that back in the dawn of man and perhaps later on, such offspring were probably left to die.

I just find it sad that we base laws on what emotions anymore and we do the dumbest little things so that no matter the evil deed we do, it's ok and no one should feel the least bit bad for taking out their own wrong on another person. Another example is suing. But I won't get into that.

my mother was 17 when she fell pregnant with me and my twin brother and she let her mother talk her out of an abortion.
When she was in third trimester her mother died.
Two months after we were born she killed herself due to post natal depression.
If she had an abortion she would still be alive today and i would never have existed as anything but a lump of cells that never had to feel pain.

White Witch: somebody.

The Real: What I find far sadder than any sort of hypocrisy is that there's a fight going on over wording, despite the fact that both sides want to further protect pregnant women.

Riot Girl: ..damn.

Riotgirl: If you don't think that you are more than a collection of cells that formed tissues; a collection of tissues that forms organs; then you have some serious life issues.

Alan Smithee: Mr. Aloof, what else is new. Did you ever consider than before brain function takes place, a soul could be forming?

And what exactly is a soul?

Your spirit. You have one when the egg gets fertilized.

quote:

---

Your spirit. You have one when the egg gets fertilized.

---

It sounds to me this "spirit" thing has to do with religion. Now wouldn't protecting someones spirit be in the interest of religion. Shouldn't the government stay out of religious matters?

Do black people that were slaves have souls? How about all the jews that were killed by the nazis, all the vietnamese women and children killed by american G.I.s. How about the citizens of Bagdad that were bombed by the american governemnt, the millions in africa who die each day of AIDS because rich pharmaceutical companies want to keep their profits by selling the medication at high prices or the poor people in america that die on the streets for they are without health care, the children that are killed each day by handguns and all the children around the world that don't have enought money to feed themselves, do they have souls that are less imporant than unborn babies, Lokil? Instead of spending money fighting abortions, how about giving to charities?

We aren't talking about AIDS or vietnam.

We are talking about abortion.

About people using religion as an excuse to make laws.

Yeah, but the point is still their... we're wasting our time fighting these battles that don't matter in the end. We're trying to save unborn children so they can enter this worlds of hatred and evil, shall we not secure the live that have already been born before we try and save those unborn. But in the mess of a popularity race, and every politician just trying to look good in the eyes of those who are still lucky enough to be free of the harshness of the world. We seem to be forgetting what priority means. I shake my head in frustration as people demonstrate in front of abortion clinics that take unborn lives from the world (which is only apparent to the), yet ignore that a hundred thousand times as many people (already having breathed) dying of many more worse fates. I don't care if this is about abortion. I think it's plain silly to argue over something such as this. Let women decide about their own bodies,... or shall we let society argue senselessly, continuing to ignore things that don't seem to effect them directly....

No, we're talking about abortion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Real:
Hmmm I have mixed emotions about abortion, but my point was this.

If you abort it, the fetus is not alive.
If a bad guy assaults a pregnant women he is now faces 2 assault charges, becaus the fetus is all of a sudden alive and counts as a human being. To me it seems as if we define alive, by whether or not we want to keep it. Which I feel is pretty freakin sad.

---

BINGO! Another Government Double Standard!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lokil:
Riotgirl: If you don't think that you are more than a collection of cells that formed tissues; a collection of tissues that forms organs; then you have some serious life issues.

Alan Smithee: Mr. Aloof, what else is new. Did you ever consider than before brain function takes place, a soul could be forming?

---

AMEN!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bongman:
It sounds to me this "spirit" thing has to do with religion. Now wouldn't protecting someones spirit be in the interest of religion. Shouldn't the government stay out of religious matters?

---

Its doesnt matter what religion you are. If you dont believe in a God but believe in Pure Energy then thats still your religion.

And all life is energy even that so called "Growing Cell" or as a physician told my sister after she had a miscarriage "Nothing more then a benine(spell check) tumor" or a "Growth"

Its still life!

quote:

---

Its doesnt matter what religion you are. If you dont believe in a God but believe in Pure Energy then thats still your religion.

---

I can't for the life of me figure out the logic of this. Many wiccans really are out of touch. Im not really sure how energy can be pure or impure. I believe in electricity and light and heat. I guess reality is my religion.


So I have a big old benign tumor in my head. If I don't get it taken out it will kill me or leave me severly mentally disabled. But wait,

quote:

---

Its still life!

---

Dam I guess I have to die now.

The soul may exist, it may not. I do not accept ecclesiastic evidence in the creation of the law.

It's a woman's body, therefore it is her choice. Any moral issues are hers to reconcile.

If she doesn't want the baby then, within some time limits, she can have an abortion.
You relied on your parents for the first 10 at least and if they don't want you during those 10-16 years your life is going to be so bad your going to whish you had never been born so look on abortions as a favor to the unwanted unborn.

In fact I don't give a fuck about the unborn if it makes a living woman unhappy, if the parents can't support the child, , then abortions are fine.

The people who don't like the idea of abortions are people who don't trust their parents. This is very sad for them but they can't control everyone else. If they don't like abortions then they don't have to have them. SIMPLE. Don't interfere.

Taking away people rights upsets me. Children would have no rights without their parents so they must respect their parents choices.


------------------
~Kameron
Carpe Aptenodytes! (Seize the Penguins!)

"The people who don't like the idea of abortions are people who don't trust their parents"

Please explaing this to me, I don't agree one bit, nor do I think you can come close to backing such a statement. Furthermore what the hell does it have to do with abortion?

"Children would have no rights without their parents so they must respect their parents choices."

Our constitution gives us "God given rights" unalieble rights. Nowhere does it say people have "parental given rights". If your parents gave you those rights, that means at any time they can take them away. So if you're 37 how would you feel if your folks tried to make it wrong for you to vote, or drive your car? Parents don't give rights, we are born into them.

If you're parents killed you right now, would you respect their decision? Would anyone else? I doubt it, in fact they'd go to jail for murder.

While were on topic I don't think abortion should be used as a means as birth control. Killing people for covering up a mistake is just wrong. Twould be better just not to have made the mistake in the first place.

I think people that are fully prochoice and feel no guilt in destroying a fetus are irresponsible. They want an easier way out of the shit they brought down on themselves.

Also I don't want to pay for it, if she did it, she should pay for it, if she can't afford it, then she can use a fucking coat hanger for all I care, I'll giver her one. But I don't think that I, nor you, nor anyone should have to pay for her fuck up. I don't think the father then should have to pay either, since it's her body. But in that situation the tables turn, the man is responsible to help pay to rid the child, but he has no say in whether it is kept or not. This is bullshit. So let the bitch suffer as she bleeds to death to pay for her crime of utmost irresponsibility and killing the father's son. If the father has to pay, he should have some say. And ya know what else? I think I should have a say to for anywomen that used some of my tax money to pay for an abortion. I'm paying for it, I'm gonna shop for the better deal. Coat hangers for about $2.50/24, pretty damn cheap. If she dies sharks make great cadaver cleaner uppers, the cost to tow a body to shark infested waters, prolly about $50. So for 24 abortions the max cost would be $1202.50. Not a bad buy, considering that one at a clinic cost probably costs more than that. And I bet that we could even do it cheaper if we bought coat hangers from Sam's Club.

As far as those not abusing such a clinical procedure, I'm ok with.

Unabusive's would be the kids gonna be deformed, either mother or child could die, rape, or other extreme cases.

If it's about population control, then I say kill the parents as well, we could knock out 3 for 1, then after a while we wouldn't need it anymore. Also rid the pope who preaches that means of effective birth control is wrong, then bribes the poor with scraps of food into following him.

But, why bring unwanted babies into an already overcrowded world? How would you feel knowing that your parents never wanted you?

Besides, I'm not saying that it should be used as a form of birth control, either. There are plenty of different types of birth controls out there. But, accidents do happen and nothing it 100% sure proof other than abstinence. So, I believe that if a mother doesn't want a child, or is physically inept to carry one, it's more humane to both mother and child.

How would you feel if you knew that you killed the woman who gave birth to you?

Abortion isn't just legal rights. It's not just murder - living or dying - sparing the beating heart of an undeveloped fetus. It's also taking into account the psychological reprecussions that might follow it.

Prenatal Depression is a diagnosed illness as well as Postnatal Depression. Both may occur during perfectly normal pregnancies. Pregnancy (having a baby) is not only traumatic for the baby, but it is also traumatic for the woman. She carries the baby, become attached physically and psychologically to the baby, and then give birth to it, which is a painfull operation. There's a bond there which making abortion much different from murder. It's mercy. It's like putting a dying man out of his misery or shooting an old stag. It's plain mercy and it's not easy for the woman.

Also, did you know that natural birth is a trauma to the baby. Anyone who was born natural (going through the birth canal) share what is called The First Trauma and those born through ceasarians literally share intirely different mentalities to those born naturally since they lack The First Trauma. Therefore birth is traumatic on both ends.

Not to say that it's all traumatic in a bad way. If a mother wants a baby and loves the baby then it's a joyfull experience and the pain of birth and The First Trauma bring the bond closer and makes the love between the child and the mother stronger. But, if the mother did not want the child, and psychologically rejects the child, the babys subconcious literally knows it's unwanted inside the womb. Often, with unwanted pregnancies there are naturally miscarriages because the fetus is simply rejected by the mother even within the womb. Without the psychological bond between the two the infants developement can be radically altered and these are psychological and physical facts. It effects the infants brain-waves and that, plus The First Trauma, can seriously alter a persons life without them even knowing it. Then imagine that they grow up in either a family who doesn't want them or ends up in a foster home. Let's say the foster home is good people. They will still know that their parents didn't want them and there are many foster parents who only do it for the money. They might end up in the hands of a pedophile!

Besides, there are already plenty of babies up for adoption for honest people who can't have babies. Why bring anymore angry people into the world? It does no good to anyone.

Cheers,
Lost

"But I don't think that I, nor you, nor anyone should have to pay for her fuck up."

Please explain how you or I have to pay for anyone's abortion.

Spiffy,

The government will pay for abortions if a girl not afford one. We pay that of course through taxes.

LostCause,

How the hell do we know what a baby knows or feels inside the womb? You gonna tell me you remember?

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Real:
Spiffy,

The government will pay for abortions if a girl not afford one. We pay that of course through taxes.

LostCause,

How the hell do we know what a baby knows or feels inside the womb? You gonna tell me you remember?

---

If a girl can't afford an abortion, I have my doubts she could afford to raise a child. Would you rather have $700 (or whatever) of tax money go to that, or exponentially more go into welfare (which would happen even if only one in ten of those mothers wound up on it)?

Ideally, I'd rather have it go into more widespread birth control, but I suppose that's another topic entirely.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy McBang:
If a girl can't afford an abortion, I have my doubts she could afford to raise a child. Would you rather have $700 (or whatever) of tax money go to that, or exponentially more go into welfare (which would happen even if only one in ten of those mothers wound up on it)?

Ideally, I'd rather have it go into more widespread birth control, but I suppose that's another topic entirely.

---

You suppose shit. Federal welfare is over, and welfare in general isn't as rampant as it used to be.

Is it still there? Yes. There's less of it? Wonderful. Who do you think gets it?

"the only reason you're born is because the government made it illegal to terminate you beforehand."

you know it will be said.

try to think about the life of the child.

like they said in pet semetary:

"sometimes dead is better"

Real, You take me a tad to literally,
BUT I do believe that abortion at anytime when the foetus is not conscious is perfectly allowable.

I believe it because it is better than bringing unwanted children into this already over populated world.

It is also better than driving abortion underground to the back streets where women and children will die horrible deaths, better to have it controlled in a safe environment and don't give me not safe for the child bit. When a woman goes to have an abortion she gets councilling and with that she may decide to keep the child.

Children do rely on their parents for everything when they're young so what is the point in denying it? If an unwanted child was born then neglected, it would be worse for it than if it had never been born because it would suffer far more pain. I really have the unborn children's best interests at heart.

------------------
~Kameron
Carpe Aptenodytes! (Seize the Penguins!)

Adoption's still better (usually). The people I really feel bad for aren't mothers or children.. it's the people that nature fucked and have to wait 7 years to show a child some love. (This is with all due respect to the issue of pre- and post-natal depression Lost brought up.)

We know what a baby feels inside the mothers womb through scientific study. The infants nervous system doesn't even work until the fifth months and a baby cannot be aborted after the fourth. Besides, what's worst? An aborted infant? or a child being abused?

Cheers,
Lost