Right, this will probably get me into some seriously deep shit and result in my getting flamed by everyone and their dog, which won't be good as I'm new here, but here goes!
Don't you think that animal rights have gone too far? I find it stupid that many people devote their lives to campaigning on the behalf of animals, when so much shit happens to people that hardly anyone gives a fuck about! Homelessness, Pollution, Racism, Sexism, the ever growing gap between rich and poor, and the rest are all neglected on the sentimental notion that animals are just like us, and feel in the same way...There is NO evidence of this!
Most of these animal rights protesters protest over the use of animals in testing for new products, chemicals etc. But if inflicting pain on animals can help many people in the long run, then I say it's a necessary evil. To this argument many say that at the very least cosmetics etc should not be tested on animals as they are not necesary. But imagine the uproar if, for instance, young girls (and Goth boys!) started going blind from defective eyeliner, or lipstick started melting peoples lips off?
I also find it sickening that many of these people find it acceptable to hurt people in defence of animals. For instance, the head of research at a large research facility near where I live recently had his address traced by some exteme Animal Rights nutters, despite the elaborate lengths used to protect the employees. 3 people in balaclavas then proceeded to beat him with metal baseball bats, hospitalising the man in question. I have also found that the organization now plans to distribute this mans address to all related groups etc., presumably so any other nutter who fancies a go can have one.
Well, that's my not-very-well-rounded argument, so please let me know who you feel. Death threats are welcome.

I'm sure you may mean good and all, but maybe you've also been misguided. There are a lot of arguments out their, and a lot of people with different mentalities on such things. Maybe animal rights have gone to far in the wrong way in some places... but for the most par I'd argue that they have gone further in the right direction. If you wanna label it so...
Don't label something you don't understand "stupid". That says nothing, or maybe that you just don't, like, understand. Their a are so many people out there, and some choose to devote themselves, their lives, and much more to the protection of a relatively beautiful thing... life. Human life ain't the only form of it out there. If none of these sort of people existed (in some other dimension of ourselves...), then what a disaster. No one would fight for the rights that animals have for being alive. Now if it was people fighting for the rights of rock (considering in all cases they are not alive in any sort of odd way) then maybe you would hold true. .........and a lot of shit does happen to humans, such as your examples, but they bring it on themselves. Do you see animals murdering, a stealing, and burning down other animals and their worlds. No. (Not just 'cause they aren't very capable of such things; mind you in a non-nature way.) Humans are over populated and in a sense, evil. (no offense... course.) Animals are innocent, they aren't smart enough, evolved enough to be evil. The fact that animals breath, cry when hurt, and fight to survive should be proof enough that they "feel", somewhat like we do.
You seem to have an attitude that humans are all important. Suffer animals so humans may live in peace, pleasure, and freedom of pain? No. I see no more right to burn the lips off a dog than that of a human. Common sense is a great thing... off my point.
The last things you said, where a man had been hunted like that, and beaten, is a good example of animal rights gone wrong. Their are extremists out their... they don't represent everyone's action. Everyone has their own opinion, such as you just expressed.
We have to use reason.

Och, wrote more than you did, excuse me.

Someone who thinks animals deserve no privacy is taking the piss out of totse but they can spell very well.


------------------
~Kameron
Carpe Aptenodytes! (Seize the Penguins!)

poor spelling is me thankthinksthakstothoks

[This message has been edited by Kameron (edited 04-23-2001).]

Thanking animals? Whatever you are insinuating, to me or whatever... hmmm, I have to say I don't understand what you said... and either he can spell well or one knows how to use "spell check". Who's lookin' for fault in another spelling, if I was to insinuate further?

As a species, we already have enougth problems trying to protect human life so maybe PETA should go help children dying of famine in Africa instead of trying to prevent something nobody cares about.

I understand where you are coming from, and I can understand your viewpoint and I even (shock, horror)! agree, up to a point. But what I meant was that the entire principle of animal testing was morally sound, as long as the animals do not suffer unnecessarily ie any suffering that is felt has a scientific reason or purpose.
It just seems to me that many of these protesters are hypocritical. You know the type, vegetarians with leather shoes and the like. It also seems to me that animals suffering is controlled by more regulations and rules than the rules that govern people! That seems wrong to me anyway you slice it.

On a serious note; how much pain and suffering do you think animals (for instance pigs or higher mammals) should be allowed to go thru in the search for a cure for say child hood leukemia as compared to the testing of a new lip stick or deodorant?
I think quite a bit for the former even all that way to death (although I don't belive prolonged agony would be acceptable) BUT for the latter I would suggest almost none - even to rabbits or mice.

You could be cynical and say that humans are not worth the life of even one monkey but think how you would feel if you were dying of something that could have been cured if a few pigs had died?

------------------
~Kameron
Carpe Aptenodytes! (Seize the Penguins!)

[This message has been edited by Kameron (edited 04-23-2001).]

I don't think animals should be put through anything that won't save lives or feed someone.

Testing cosmetics on them is just messed up.
I think people should be test subjects for such things.

But PETA is way overboard. Supposedly it welcomes mad cow in hopes that there is a wide spread foot and mouth epidemic in people. All this so we know what it's like. They seem to be ok with animals suffering, so long people do to. Hmmm sounds liberal.

PETA members have been arrested for harrassing hunters and even going so far as to dress as animals during hunting season and go play in the woods. Those people obviously want to be shot, I say lettem have it. They have also threatened to kill hunters. Similar to the fanatical anti-abortion people.

Animal bill of rights

I. You have the right to be delicious.
II. You have the right to be placed in a glaze or sauce of your choice, this right may also extend to wine pairing
III. You have a right to be worn for warmth.

If it were any other, protein ingesting, group and there were three of them with baseball bats the man would be dead now.

Oh, Real, that explains why that dear tasted kinda funny, care for some solyent venison.


[This message has been edited by Alan Smithee (edited 04-23-2001).]

Animals are not ours to eat, wear, perform experiments on, or use for entertainment.
The only time stuff that is ok is when it's for life threatening diseases, cancer and shit like that.
Some companies still do shit like the L.D 50 test, which is where they spray a bunch of rabbits with deoderant, or whatever they are testing until 50% of them die. Shit like that is just fucking wrong.
But the hypocritical protesters really piss me off. Vegetarians that eat fish are the worst, almost equalled by the ones who wear leather, closely followed by people who sit there saying they are so fucking nice because they don't eat animals then sit down to a glass of milk.

Who says animals aren't ours to eat?

Furthermore it's impossible to be a vegetarian. Whenever you eat a meal containing veggies you are eating bugs as well. Do you really think they can rid of every insect or insect part that is on the plant? The FDA has set an allowance for the amount of insect parts that can be in plant material. Even if you ate from your own garden, you'd be ingesting bugs and/or bug parts.

Anyways, is taking the animal's poop to put on fields to grow your corn wrong too? Shouldn't it be used to fertilized their own grazing lands?

And what do you suggest? That we free every cow, chicken, hog, sheep, goat, etc? The environmental damage caused by such a thing would be more than man has probably ever caused.

Plants are alive to ya know and plants do react to some stimuli, perhaps they have feelings too? Either way though they have to die for you to eat it. Since taking a life is murder, isn't being a vegetarian wrong then too? I really think this paragraph is as absurd as someone saying that meat is murder.

You people can't see from but one perspective. If you don't like to eat meat, fine, but don't tell me I can't.

LD50 testing is required for MSDS's, without it there would be no limits for people to work with. Which means you, me, and many other people would be dead or sick from exposure to about every chemical industrally used, no matter your job. However there are computer programs being developed that can pretty accurately determine the toxicity of a chemical based on the percentages of it's ingredients and the structure of each of those. Just give it time.

How do you feel about animals killing other animals? This I'm most interested in. Are wolves wrong to hunt? What about large mouth bass that feed on minnows? Hell even gentle whales feed on krill which are animals. Let's execute the remaining whales for mass murder. You know how many krill they kill in a single mouthful? They are the Hitlers of the sea.

Rabbits are dumb anyways, over grown big eared rats, but they do taste ok.

BTW I ran down a opossum on Saturday night and killed it with my bare hands.



[This message has been edited by The Real (edited 04-23-2001).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Real:

Testing cosmetics on them is just messed up.
I think people should be test subjects for such things.

---

Yeah, that's what college students are for.

there is a law being passed that will ban rats from being used in the labratory.

The same people who had labratory experiments done on puppies now has a 2 year moritorium put on lab rats as well. it will be up to the Supreme Court in 2 years to decide if it is wrong to sacrifice mice and rats for cancer treatments and other important studies.

Its really sad that someones child could be saved in a few years but may not now.. now that animal right activists have succeded in their quest to put an end to "Cruelty to animals".

There was a hotel built in San Francisco for losts pets and homeless animals. This is no lie, Its a a 10,000 sq ft building with rooms big enough for people. it was mostly donated money but the city pitched in as well. Yet there are thousands of homeless people in San Francisco who die from exposure to the harsh cold San Francisco weather.

But like some of you say.. We need to weed out the human population.. we need to weed out the poor and lower common denominator.

Im seriouslly being Sarcastic. I love Animals, i got a dog. But im not gonna treat him like a person. he isnt allowed in my house and he wont get steaks and a pretty little sweater for christmas.

I Think it would be better to do medical testing on rapists murderers and child molesters, if only because it would produce better results.

By the way man is an omnivorous animal, hence the incisors. If we are above the animals than we can do with them as we wish, If we are not then why should we be held to a higher standard than they.

The Real,
If you are concerned about killing the bugs of about killing vegetables then think about this.
Did you know that for every pound of meet produced the animal has to eat 16 pounds of vegetables.
That�s 16 times the amount of dead bugs and vegetables.

Like I said before, animal testing is ok as long as it's the only way and not just the cheapest way to discover cures for life threatening diseases.

You have to put the financial thing in perspective too. If you save x amount of money by testing on animals, that may be the difference between creating a treatment and running out of money first.

I'm a hunter. Hate me if you must, but better in my stomach than on the side of the road.

------------------
I would rather be a smartass than a dumbass