/begin rant

Given the surface area of the average home's roof, and the average energy consumtion factors of that home... solar panel energy conservation- even the cheap, slightly inefficient ones- could provide enough energy to run every electrical applience in that house every day of the year except one. Air conditioning condensers take 18% more power on average per hour than an energy-efficient panel can gather in that hour.

Also, solar technology is NOT an effective option for the 46% of urban Americans who do not own their own home, but rent apartments instead where the energy consuption/available surface area ratio is three times greater than necessary.

So, solar technology is great if you 1- have enough money to own your own home, and 2- don't mind paying extra for air conditioning electricity. I still like the idea, and will be getting them on the house I build, when I actually get the funds up to build it. Anyone who cries about the contributions I make to the capitalist destroyers of the environment until then can come up with the money to get me a mortgage, or put up with being ignored. The average consumer has spoken.

Who knows anything about fuel cells? They're those neat little inventions whereby electrical energy is created when oxygen is run by one electrode and hydrogen by another, with a catalyst in between where the hydrogen proton attracts the split hydrogen electron, thus creating current. Using pure oxygen and pure hydrogen, the resulting process creates electricity, heat and perfectly clean water, strict H2O. Taking oxygen from your average joe air and using clean hydrogen, the resultant byproduct is slightly dirty water, like in that spring water everyone likes to drink... slightly mineralized.

This is not a new technology folks. It's been around since the sixties. Why are we only now getting around to creating mass technology upgrades with it? Because, gasoline is simply more prolific than hydrogen. Fuel cells are cleaner and cheaper, but you can't just go down to the corner market and pick up a liter of pressurized hydrogen, can ya?

Every major automobile manufacturer has already built a fuel cell hybrid vehicle. Every one of them works. Every major automobile manufacturer says they can have these vehicles mass-produced by the year 2008-2010. Imagine, your car has no emissions but water... less water in fact than your current exhaust system dumps on the road now.

Why don't we do it then? Like I said before, where are we going to get the hydrogen from? Would you want to drive a vehicle with onboard hydrogen tanks? (actually, it would probably be safer than carting around something that not only is flammable itself, but creates flammable fumes.. but try telling that to most people) Consumerism rules once more. To buck the system in place, someone has to come up with a better, cheaper, easier one. Therein lies the problem.

Besides that, even having hydrogen-powered vehicles will not free the world from oil refining. Guess what plastic is made from? You know... the plastic that makes up your computer, your chair, your refigerator, your microwave, fuel cell car panels, that band-aid on your arm. That stuff. It's oil-based yanno. Sure, consumption would go down... but it'll still be there.

I guess my whole point is this; environmentally sound technology is on its way, but slowly. Implimenting it is the real pain, because the average joe just doesn't have the capacity... either time-wise or economically... to make that sudden change. It HAS to be gradual, because nobody in the world has the money or time to bring this technology to the world overnight.

I can admire Nihil's campaign. Can't say I like his methods, but the ideology is sound. If someone could offer me a fuel cell vehicle with convenient hydrogen refuelling stations where I need to go, a home with solar energy technology, and do it within my financial means... hell, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Problem is, I don't see anyone willing to do that, and I sure as hell can't do it myself.

/end rant

... it's no the point that everyone has to have solar energy... but if everyone that did in fact own their own house did resort to some usage of solar power then it would take a huge chunk out of the power we consume fossil fuels for. Here in this country they use an enormous amount of wind power, there are windmills every where, even standing in the middle of the ocean in some places... that power contributes 10% of the energy for the nation.............. I've also seen ads for those hydrogen powered cars (Ford I think) and it seemed genius, but of course it's going to take time, everything does, but the fact is that we are changing and hopefully we can do it fast enough. If hydrogen takes over the role of fossil fuels in powering just about everything in the world we might be able to get a handle the pollution in causes. Plastic and such similar products do come from fossil fuels, but I don't think that's so bad for the environment... getting the fuel isn't so bad either.... the issue has been burning it. And if we only use the limited amount of fossil fuels and the like that we have for only plastic... I can't see us using it all up like we seem to be doing now. Inevitably, hydrogen will be sold like we sell gas now... and with gas running out it's price will rise (like it's doing now) and the demand for hydrogen (which should become less costly than gas) will rise.... for the better. "The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stone." ...and neither will this fossil fuel based age we're living in.

back to to fucking dirt, back to the earth....

yeah not alot of people let what i said sink in as it is the answer,LOCALLY!!!

see those big mother fucking buildings are an environmental hazard just in em selfs,

why??

welll they conduct hug amounts of heat,

forget coc gasses and all the freaken live stock cattle farting(methane) to cause global warming the huge appartment building r- a total solar conductor,

they conduct massive amounts of heat, especially when all built side by side, and the reflection ah man, i can get a sun tan on my ass from the next building for fuck sake.

i gota hail you fix,

fucking emphatic shit, you see how you have started locally, being your self ,

thats how you start, as we did, you begin in the community,
imagine all commun ities that would have a community based agriculture, if they couldent in there area(change that by pullin down the heat conductors and building stuff like we have in our blue prints-more later) then they would get it from their neighbours,

they all grow their/graze their own food in their area, only enough for them selfs, and have a communiy based system.

the average house with hemp materials and other earth friendly technology is way cheaper to build, we have already proved that, the resources are like around 1/3 of the other, and safe for the planet...you need a company that can market it cheaper to comsumers, that will snage their asses, and then i will dominate their feeble iresponsibility(fix not include)

humans /western culture are but a puppet, you dangle money on a string in front of them and say dance mother fucker dance, and they groove, dance mother fucker dance, yeah, ow yeah...dance....im grooven baby

and is that fuel cell stuff what the government(united snakes) killed that guy, that invented the car that could run on water, is that related to that, i will now try and read up on that shit, interesting man.

I like your post Fixit but the truth is, we don't need petroleum. http://www.crrh.org/cannabis/biodiesel.html
Secondly there are better ways to harness power, than the use of solar or even fuel cells. One of them being the flywheel. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.05/flywheel.html

[This message has been edited by Templeton (edited 04-08-2001).]

Your post would be true if every day were bright and sunny. But weather plays a big role in how much power panels produce.

In college I did a project. I built a scale house with running water, a solar water heater, lights, and a fan. Extra lights were added to make the energy consumed proportional to the size of the house. I used a high effeciency 12v solar panel, it cost me about $500 and was one square foot.
Output was 12v at 250mA or 3 amp hours.

The panel was connected to a motorcycle battery and the power was distributed from there. In simulating the amount of sun the panel would recieving in the average year the house could not run without supplimental power. However it did cut the amount of fossil fuel power the house needed, 70% of the power needed was provided by the panel.

Perhaps the cost of panels have gone down I dont' know what it costs to panel a home.
But at $500/sq-ft, wow. If you lived in a trailer 18x50ft that's 900sq-ft, or $450K to panel the trailer. Say you paid $100/moth for electric the cost would be cut to $25 a $75 savings. $450000/$75/month is 500yrs for the panels pay for themselves. But that was back then.

Biodiesel is great, it's renewable and rather clean. In cracking vegetable oils to diesel, one eliminates sulfur content to about nil.

hey real, about 2 years back i bought a 1 square foot solar panel that has the exact same specs on it. it cost me 35 dollars.

when did you buy yours?

A few comments.

The flywheel idea is good for some things, but the only way it could retain it's spin for a long time would be in a vaccum on saphire bearings. That's not practical. However for emergency power it would do the job nicely, as long as it's recharged regulary.

There is a little device known as the proton polymer battery that was recently developed. It's core is a polymer (relitivly lightweight) and a 12v one will recharge in 5 min (I couldn't find specs for others.) This is ideal for electric cars.

Fuel cell technology is fine, but you have to keep in mind that it takes electrical energy to produce it, and though large facilities can produce the hydrogen more efficently proton polymer batteries use less complecated and less expensive equipment.

Now the air conditioner thing. Yes I have an air conditioner. Do I use it? Rarely. I save it only for the worst days. It can and does get hot as hell here in MI. Sometimes it does top 100, it was 80 yesterday and it's only early spring. The best solution is to hang out in the basement. That is natural cooling and it doesn't cost squat. I understand that many people do not have basements, but those of you that do should set up a small living area for the summer. When it gets cooler in fall you can always change it back to storage.

Finaly, Nhilistic. I understand where you're coming from. I'm doing my own thing out here too. But more people will take you seriously if you don't come on so strong and go around insulting everyone. That only makes them stop listening and is counter productive. I hate people sometimes too, but I deal with it. Language is a tool, it works best when used in the approved way. Just keep that in mind

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Leading Social Alchemy;
Turning our leaden exestence into a golden tomorrow