I was talking to a friend the other day about environmental activism. This person belongs to a group that has been branded by the mainstream media as "radical". Our discussion focused on whether or not it was advantageous for these groups to destroy the so called "technical assets" of corporations in order to slow or halt the "capitalistic destruction" of our environment. My argument was that vandalism and/or destruction of machinery and developments of corporate entities only delayed the inevitable. That when groups such as the ELF wreck a bulldozer or torch a building. The victim of the act then replaces the damaged item with money from their insurance company.
This results in the corporation or whoever ultimately getting better equipment and/or more money than what the destroyed property was originally worth. While I did agree with my friend that just protesting the actions of corporations benefiting from the degradation or destruction of the environment was not enough. I still think there has to be a better solution than vandalism. I decided to post this in hopes that maybe the &Totse community as a whole. Could help come up with a way, in which we as a people could find a different means in which to address the subject of environmental destruction for profit. Any suggestions?
http://www.earthliberationfront.com/about/
http://www.islandpress.com/ecocompass/prevent/index.html
http://www.cavalierdaily.com/.Archives/1996/October/2/edjames.asp
http://www.earthfirstjournal.com/




[This message has been edited by Templeton (edited 04-05-2001).]

Fact: The world gets one third of all breathable air from South America

Better Fact: It's their countries

Who do we think we are telling Brazil, etc. not to cut down their own country?! They want Tron on DVD and fridges just like the rest of us.

My mom once told me that I shouldn't worry about an issue that won't be pertinent 100 years from now. I know some of you may be saying, "Well, Lokil, the environment will matter 100 years from now...!" And I say who knows how the energy crisis will pan out? Who knows what invention will come about? In fact, in California, there is a cash incentive to install a solar panel on reisdent's roofs. The power generated will cause the needle to slow or possibly go in reverse (depending on how much power you are using, obviously) And my house is getting one.

These activists are all Gen X'ers. They will never be happy or satisfied because they lack the capacity to do so. I wouldn't join them in their self-maintained "pit of despair"

I'm not talking 3rd world countries here. While that is a problem, the conversation I had with my friend had more to deal urban sprawl and the destruction of the enviroment for profit. And not all activists are Gen X'ers, don't be so quick to judge Lokil.



[This message has been edited by Templeton (edited 04-05-2001).]

so your interested in this shit temp, mmm interesting because your now talking to an existance that had devised the way to do this and is CURRENTLY doing it, you see alot of that vandel stuff does work on a cetain level, hinderance still delays the profitz, and insurance companies cant pay ot forever, but here is what we the horde are doing.

you see the multi nationals and and the imf, and global environmental destruction comes from energy and material abuse, of which their is tones of alternative earth friendly technology that can be substituted, the government knows this, but the capitolist will not let it happen

now here is the thing, we have started a company all based on earth friendly technology, we even have a blue print of a house with the average 2.4 children familiy, all running on earth frindly energy, and the house all built from earth frindly technology,
now we went out to 100's of houses here in brisbane and gave people a quote and showed them the danger to them selfs and the environment of their current un sustainable set up, and then showed them ours,

and the reason they went for it was because it was CHEAPER, so thats how you cut the capo's off by the nutz,

you see that cant help but want to spend less

we have to finace the company and get the builders to BOY COTT the other materials as they will when its cheaper, now to get it cheaper you have to spend money, and all your company has to be run by none profit and volenteer shit, we are curently gathering this stuff, if green peace and other environmental groups all joined a company of sortz would emerge quicker

you see temp, when you boy cott stuff, like products and building material and all the rest, they go out of business, and they fall, DEMISE SON, thats how you screw them all, vandelism is just a cool way to say the end is here.

i have under taken this action and am currently gathering stuff, the companies will eventually be in every area all over the glob, WITH CASH, i am finacing it through drug hahah, so i have heaps of cash, and i am prepared to spoend it all to save my existance and live in the integral and dignity of evoluton and the earth,

there is nothing else i want to do but begin the demise of the enslavers, and i have educated and tested methods and i know how to do it, i can destry with my mind and my body, so i am the most dangerous terroist of all

by the way temp, your email is fucked see below

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<templeton@mail.flashmail.com>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokil:
Fact: The world gets one third of all breathable air from South America

Better Fact: [b]It's their countries

****Hello Lokil:

While I don't know if I would embrace the tactics used by some of these extremist environmental groups, your post seems even more hopeless to me. You seem to be saying that if we wait long enough things will be okay because who knows what will happen. Did it occur to you that if we wait long enough, our descendents may inherit a barely liveable rock?

As for the South American rain forests, the idea that someone drawing a line on a map is more important than the oxygen, biodiversity, rights of indigenous peoples who dwell in these forests is ridiculous. What difference will maps and governments make if no one can breathe?

Another implicit assumption here is that those who dwell in such forests have no rights compared to the governments and corporations bent on exploiting their habitat.

Your hopeful fatalism makes me cringe. Turn on the idiot box- someone else will take care of environmental problems one day. Right.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Templeton:
[B]I decided to post this in hopes that maybe the &Totse community as a whole. Could help come up with a way, in which we as a people could find a different means in which to address the subject of environmental destruction for profit. Any suggestions?

Hello Templeton:

To me, a portion of the solution seems to lie in choosing to embrace sustainable living solutions on a community basis. In the 19th century U.S., thousands of people experimented with different Utopian ideas at a community level.

Protecting natural wonders may be a matter of
purchasing land and dwelling on it in a mode which will have low ecological impact: choosing to be caretakers rather than exploiters. Such communities could learn how to live differently, embracing sustainable energy alternatives and surviving based on the skills of a given collective. For example, one might run a camp devoted to teaching people how to live like this, how to appreciate nature at different levels and offering a different way of looking at our mainstream media/ corporate dominated culture in which an oligarchical elite manufactures consensus and reality through media hypnotism.

Hmmm this is a question without any single answer. Everyone needs to think hard and do what they find in their heart. People THINK things that they want to believe, SPEAK things they want others to believe, and DO what they really believe. The answers are all the combined efforts that add up to WHATEVER IT TAKES to make the Corporations stop. What I have done is help train Medics for various Actions. So I guess that's who I am ....so far.

Somebody said that south america produced 1/3 of the worlds oxygen. I suppose it comes from the rain forest and the dense foliage it produces because plants transform carbon dioxyde into oxygen. But if the land from the rain forests are transformed into farm land and, say, corn is planted on it, woulnd't the corn still transform carbon dioxyde into oxygen? We could be feeding hungry people and still get oxygen at the same time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by k9girrl:
Everyone needs to think hard and do what they find in their heart.

---

Everybody needs to stop and read this over and over until it sinks in.

The world gets 3/4 of its breathable air from blue green algee in the sea.

HEELLLOOOOOO ANY BODY FREAKEN HOME, IS ThIS THING ON!!!!!!!

I think the most important thing that can be done is make people aware of what is going on around them. Alot of people hold the belief that because these acts of environmental destruction are not happening near them, that it won't effect them in the least. That is a sad assumption. I now have a new e-mail address for those who are interested.

I don't think it's a good idea to kill something before you understand it's use completely. There are areas of forest where man has yet to explore. I know it's a tired argument, but it's the only sane one.

I have no idea how to propose the topic in a way that would lull the brainwashed, consumerized west into taking my side. How can these kids live without cell phones? Let's be serious! The only way to fight consumer-driven corporations it to go to their consumers. So who has the money to fight multi-trillion dollar conglomerates?

Y'know, if we could only stop McDonalds and Burger King, the world might have a chance.

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I believe everyone should have Tron on DVD. If everyone had Tron on DVD or CVD or DivX there would be no war or poverty.

I have Pi on DVD. Gunna poke fun at that?

well so z3m is really a smart cookie after all, tryen hide from the spot light or some thing,

its easy to start locally, as we have here in brisbane, you get the company that sells the earth friendly resources, and go to people houses and offer them cheaper alternative energy/food/products, that they are currently using, and EDUCATE THEM about the un-sustainabilty at least of their current system, we went to around 300 houses and every single freaken one said that they would sign up on a program, and buy/use the resources if we marketed them to them, thatz pre sales, and said that they wouldent sign any thing untill they saw an example,

so there you have it, a black metal terroist has done what you all seek, the results happen when this thing is inplace, and the multi nationals go out of business when their assets arnt being bought, so you can now get off your asses and do it,

you wont will you, you see you will all (sorry its the truth ,man) go on and on and agree and shit but when it comes down to it, your material existance governed and enslaved into you by the machine(hello dvd tron) by this you ARE FROOOZEN IN TIME, YOU CANNOT REACT, i ask the question, you have the answers,

i am doing it are you, can you do any thing, if you ever think you cant all as it should do is inspire you to be more individual, it works for me man.

[This message has been edited by nihilistic (edited 04-07-2001).]

A DVD is only a piece of plastic. I treasure the wisdom it holds in binary form on it's surface.

Vandalism could not be an answer. As one thing is destroyed more resources will be needed to replace it. Net effect: vandalizing could cause 2x or more the original amount of damage done to the environment. Equipment being a tax write off as well and insurance paying to replace the machine, the delay would be insignificant, a few tree's live another day, a ton of coal not burnt up for a few hours. The fact is that environmental destruction will still occur and perhaps at a increased rate with vandalism.

Wouldn't vandalizing equipment be just as bad if now worse? Leaking fluids and fuel from damage equipment will take its toll as well the fumes generated by the bright yellow burning paint.

So at what level does vandalism work? It's very similar to terrorism, just no lives are directly taken. An attention getter that is short lived and achieves really nothing. Especially people do such things without anyone knowing who or why it was done for. If you're gonna do such a thing, at least lettem see it happen, otherwise you're gutless.

How about standing in the way of equipment?
Push for newer technologies, such as synthetic wood or such. I'm sure bacteria can be altered to produce wood fibers, then we can process the cellulose into particle board or something. Resin technology could allow us to make such things, more weather worth than wood alone. For homes and structures primarily made of wood, I think people could live with.

The real way to stop people from raping the land, is to cut the demand. If nobody wants oak furniture, then no one is going to spend the money to make some. So perhaps the real question is "How do we stop people from buying wood products" or "Is there another source that will provide a product that people can live with?" I think technology can solve that as soon as it becomes feasible. But feasible doesn't usually happen till the new way is almost a last resort. People probably won't go for a plastic house, till only one tree is standing. Unless of course they are sold the idea and the reasons that a plastic house is better.

But then we are still stripping away petroleum deposits. But I say it's better to build with petrol than it is to burn the stuff. Another idea people need to be sold on. But it can be easily backed up. Hell most people are prolly already sold on the idea the burning gasoline is bad. But until people get rid of the "not in my backyard syndrome" then we will be burning fossil fuels to get energy. I say nuclear power is the way to go. It's abundant, cheap, and we could just get rid of the unwanted waste by secretly dumping it over Beijing err uh burying it I mean. However with Fusion the problems with waste won't be nearly as bad.

Another problem are the tycoons that support our govt. Do you really think a Texan is really gonna push as hard as he can to cut the use of petroleum? I don't think Bush did wrong, and if so, he wasn't as wrong as Clinton. Gore's land deals fucked over a lot of farmers, especially in Kansas and Oklahoma and along the Mississippi. So Bush would be in the right to rid of all that bs. Gore never knew shit about the environment either, nor did Clinton. The best environmentalists are the old school farmers. They grew up that way and they have seen the damages caused by over farming, filling in wetlands etc. The modern farmers with their GPS guided Combines and plows that till every bit a freakin ground they can are the problem. But it goes beyond that. To make any money, they have too, and you can blame Kellogg's, Betty Crocker, General Mills, Purina, Quaker, and Pillsbury. These people have pretty much fixed what they will buy grain for, so farmers have little choice but to abuse the land. Have you ever stopped and wondered why you pay $5 for a box of cereal and a bushel of corn cost less than 2 bucks? Pretty unreal if you ask me. I bet there aren't 5 ears of corn in one box of Pops or Frosted Flakes.

So I'm getting kinda off topic.

The bottom line is that we are always going to be using up the earths resources. But we aren't really using them, just changing their form and where they are at, except in the case of space. So no matter what we do we have to get access to such things. It's how we do it and how we recycle that will ultimately make the difference.

Use less wood and more fossil fuels or visa versa. Bio diesel and similar items still use products we mine from the ground. Fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, manufacturing equipment, packageing, transportation, etc.

It's a cycle so to say, with much room for improved management. No matter what we all support environment damaging industry, you can't really help it.

Plastic Wood

real you started to make sense,

but then when you said nuclear,

what the fuck are you thinken,

man i am gonna bring some nuclear waste down your ass,

nah first i am going to clamp your nuts in a vice, and tighten them and make you beg me to kill you,

in australia we have all/biggest waste in our back yard,

its changed form that is UN FUCKING SUSTAINAbLE AND UN FUCKING EaRTH FRIENDL AND UN FUCKING NATURAL*starts to clamp the vice and alittle more)

the technology al ready exists clamp nuts,

an idea i had to get peoples polls and media things changing, this is or was an experiment only , was to go a local mcdonalds, and see if they would volunteer to do a week trial with the products earth friendly and get feed back from their customers, like the eatable substitute/plastic wraps etc and it was all going to be this big medea thing, but they pulled out at the last minute,


the idea i had to start locally workz, you just need to start it., read in the post above.


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dental plan.......dental plan

[This message has been edited by nihilistic (edited 04-09-2001).]

Nhilistic, what is your problem with nuclear? No, I don't like the way they do it now either, but nearly all of our waste can be gotten rid of if the corperations are willing to spend the $ on breeder reactors. Yes people are idiots. Greedy too.

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Leading Social Alchemy;
Turning our leaden exestence into a golden tomorrow

It's illegal for power plants to recycle nuclear material in the US.

yeah?? no shit!!!!, fucking capitalist scum,

so they want to cut the industry off by the ballz to let the fossil dominate,

ill tell prom you whats up with the green waste, the whole concept,

breeding subjugated people into material things, showing them that if they dont live a certain life style then they are not happy, thats the concept ,

why do we need all this fucking power, because of materialsm, greed, and their shitting them, sleves becasue of third world countries, have more of a population and when they all get computers, and washing machines and cars, it will make the planet un repairable,

thier is alternatives to nuclear that are more sustainable and harmonies with nature, and the reason obviously is because of certain sections of the globe that are preventing this

, put them to death, their awareness and their body, throw the baby out with the bath water,

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totally fucken nihilistic

You have to admit though, in the short run it is cheaper to use nuclear than solar or wind. And that's what the average person wants, cheaper in the short run. That's why they by cheap products rather quality products. You have to get people used to new concepts gradualy, otherwise they resist. Another thing to work on would be to get people to by quality products. If a person gets a water heater that is more expensive but more efficent and longer lasting there will be less waste of energy and materials. I used this as an example because I did that myself a few months ago.

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Leading Social Alchemy;
Turning our leaden exestence into a golden tomorrow

Bring it over, so long it's stored correctly I have no problem with it. People are going to bitch either way as you have just shown us. Either "too much for electricity" or "not in my back yard". Well what other choices do we have? Once people learn that you have to compromise over this thing then we'll get somewhere with it. Until then society is just bringing itself down with useless bitching. Seems to me no one has the balls to step forward, but would rather drench themselves in some sick self pitty and bitch. "I pay too much for power, Nuclear is no good!" I say let's burn the people with that attitude for fuel. There is pleny of them and people are a renewable source.

yeah lets start with you, aww hang on, you would be too impure because of your toxins in your body RIGHT NOW!! dick head.

fucking back to the dirt for you, mg burns.