'The devil looks after his own' and old saying, thought by many to be true.
'The sun always shines on the righteous' ditto.
Either way, why the fuck is it raining?
Is it because I am not good enough to be righteous, or because I am not bad enough for the devil?
which should I do?

http://www.velkro.net/

Been there, done that.
life STILL sucks!

the devils been good to me.

there is no god
there is no devil

There is only Beer...

The rains falls down, sooner or later it stops.

The sun shines down, it leaves, but always returns.

When it returns it dries up the rain.

So you could evaporate or maybe become part of the color in a beautiful flower.

such is the plight of rain, you asked.

winki's cool.

Animals.
Animals that can reason.
Animals that can reason, then can not find an answer.
Animals feel incomplete.
Animals create organized religion.
Animals.

damn, i like that.

------------------
Deshabandhashcittasya dhaaranaa //1//
Concentration is the mind's fixation on one point.
Pata�jali from Yogasuutra-s of Pata�jali, 1st aphorism, Book III

I agree to whoever said there is no god and no devil.

------------------
Life is like a video game, fight for money and expieriance!

i'm down with the animal thing.

i'm gonna use that.

just to let you know
but you still said it

G.O.D?=Good Old Devil?

------------------
<-Evol<Chum<-

There is God and there is a Devil. Good and Evil, but since they are constantly fighting it seems to the average eye that there is no good or evil. because they constantly cancel each other out.

and Diluted,

I think you are confusing "animal" with biological urges. Animals cannot reason. Do you have any idea how fortunate I feel that I am able to do a "manual override" of some of the things that my body wants to do? Only humans can do that (if they want to)

[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 01-29-2001).]

I was trying to look for the verse in the Christian Bible.

It says that it rains on both the good and evil.

Point??! it means both the wicked and non wicked shall suffer in this world of darkness. See this planet is in fact HELL!

One day God will destroy Heavan and Earth and rebuild them both. So why does it rain? because we live on a very violent mass of rock floating in space. Why do you think there has been so many Earthquakes lately.

But it all has a purpose as well im sure.


can anyone tell me how to make Baklava?

I don't belive in either,but then again in my sorry life I haven't really found or seen anything to take hope from.I know this sounds foolish,but take this advice work hard at what you want don't let any one tellyou you are not good or smart enoughto have what you want work hard at your goals while you are young I know this sucks but trust me it will pay off in the long run.Fight for what you want and be willing to sacrifice along the way, trust no one and confide in no one the other guy will cut your throat if given the chance to do it first.dont lie,if you say your going to do something do it.

there's this cool place on fairfax...

Plates, tectonic plates, floating on magma and bumping into each other...

you people who say you have found nothing in this world to give you hope.

like the post above me says, don't trust man.

don't look for hope in man.

don't look for the world to hand you your dreams on a silver platter.

don't look at you neighbor for the solution to your problems.

look in the mirror for your hope.

look in the mirror for your answers.

look in the mirror for your dreams.

we have become a society so dependant on others, that we feel they owe us whatever we want.

we are so special that we have to be waited on.

we look for excuses for our failures.

we look for reasons to give up.

here is a quote from the book "illusions"

"you are never given wish; without also being given the power to make it come true"

something pretty easy to put your trust in, but it's the second part of it man doesn't like.

"YOU MAY HAVE TO WORK FOR IT THOUGH"

i have to apologize, but i get worked up when i hear of "no hope" and shit like that from people.

another quot from "illusions" i believe to be very true.

"YOU ARE WHERE YOU ARE IN LIFE BECAUSE IT'S WHERE YOU WANT TO BE"

Hey lokil. You mean the town of Fairfax?

Im in the Bay Area. and of course we have EarthQuakes too.

I want to share my experience of the last large 1989 Quake.

I felt as if everything underneath me was floating on water. like perhaps a boat on a lake that you are standing up on and fly fishing from. then out of no where some jackass in a speedboat pulling a skier comes very close to you at a very fast speed and you get caught in his wake. I use this medifore because im sure everyone has experienced that at least once in their life. That is what a large rolling earthquake feels like.

I have to make this short....

Man is an animal just as any other mammal... etc. That is a fact.

And who is to say they do not reason as well? Just because we do not understand their 'language' or see what is going on in their heads, does not mean they do not have the ability to reason. It just means man is not in the position to know.

------------------
Deshabandhashcittasya dhaaranaa //1//
Concentration is the mind's fixation on one point.
Pata�jali from Yogasuutra-s of Pata�jali, 1st aphorism, Book III

"Man is an animal just as any other mammal... etc. That is a fact."

The are no facts, only theorys.

mah theory...

jesus christ was a con-artist saying he was the son of god just to see how long this petty society beleived it.

there is no god, there is no devil. just a big rock that spawned a race of living things from tiny micro-organisms

think about it. how many different religions are out there? and everyone of them is "the right one" if u ask sum1 that beleives in it.

the bible is a book of made up stories written by sum people that got REALLY bored. maybe they were drunk and thats y everything in it contridicts itself.

of course thats just mah theory... and who is to say im rite newayz?

..... your life will soon be mine... your defenitly one of a kind... your suffering because of me, it's Divine!!!!

Fuck you i'm fed up with you i'm not as good as you fuck you i'm better then you
you know what FUCK YOU i'm fed UP WITH YOU i'm not as good as you?? FUCK YOU I'M BETTER THEN YOU.

I like hamburgers.
That couldn't be fact, thus - only a theory.

I _could_ be lying.

... psst, there's facts.

Or "Say it with a Smile!" Which ever you'd like!

------------------
You're in a laundry room, You're in a laundry room, the clue just came to you?, oh.

Whoooo... FILM.

I went to school for film (that was my actual major, lol). The whole point to any art is to communicate an idea, to make people feel, think, laugh, cry... etc.

To make you take another look at life and the human experinece in another way. The movie Dogma did just that for many people.

Don't knock art, it is the only constant for communication throughout the ages. It reaches even the most common of man. Like stained glass windows... that is one of the clearest examples of this - The illiterate could understand the stories read to them (in Latin) by looking at the windows.

Movies are today's stained glass windows. And just because there was humor in the movie doesn't mean there wasn't a serious idea.

[abj walks away shaking her head]

------------------
Deshabandhashcittasya dhaaranaa //1//
Concentration is the mind's fixation on one point.
Pata�jali from Yogasuutra-s of Pata�jali, 1st aphorism, Book III

Very nice,

I think you are referring to art in it's purest form. But if you think, in your idealistic phase that you seem to be going through, that the left wing (which is headquartered in Hollywood) doesn't put thier political ideology in thier "product" you are very wrongly mistaken.


*As abjabj walks away shaking her head Lokil throws a snowball made of New York snow at her head...and hits! Runs away in a cowardly fashion*

[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 01-31-2001).]

Art, yes, so very true...performance art, composition in art , wonderful point.

Expression is a given , artistic expression a gift.

Oh lokil,I was wondering if the word dare would come up. I won't defend myself or dare
to question your conviction.

the manner in which I refer to anything is based soley upon #1 my perception of that subject and#2 my intent in relating that impression to others

I like to think one reason that we all get our own brains to reason with is so that everbody can go right ahead and think what they want.

You can't get into edit my thoughts nor I yours, pretty much to "post a reply", as it were, as opposed to the edit this post option, is the only readily available channel
to pursue, point taken, more later, maybe

Diluted, diluted diluted......boy are you in for some adventure! Whomever is currently in charge of all the tingly feeling, God stuff
has a rather obscene, truly , truly obscene
sense of humor at times, whew, enjoy the ride? No, I don't know what to say other than,
I see you and , uh, no , sorry ..do you need a ride somewhere? aaaaaaahh!!!

oops 10pm gotta go
Diluted!!! oh boy

------------------
=/\__/\=
>'0"0'<
>>>Y<<<

So, you are going to tell me that Kevin Smith, is a "Big Hollywood" director?

One of the few Indie directors who actually got a BUDGET for a film (for Dogma)... His other films were purely his own creations. Ever seen Clerks? That was his first, and it was only 3 to 4 films away from Dogma. It was Black and White, with a few thousand bucks.

OBVIOUSLY you haven't seen these movies.. they are the same atmosphere, some of the same characters.. humorous and, YES thay had a point.

Here are his films:
Clerks
Chasing Amy
Mall Rats
Dogma

Dogma was his first 'real' movie, as in hollywood budget. Get real, Lokil.

And, no, i am not an idealist. I am a realist. Look through history. What form of communication was constant throughout history? It certainly wasn't the written or spoken language. "A picture is worth a thousand words." And it is true. Otherwise, it is completely fathomable the traditions of Christianity might have died in the Dark Ages. Only the clergy were allowed to read the bible, and they read it in Latin to the congregation. The common folk couldn't even read in their own language, much less Latin. Art was one of their only direct connections to the bible. Why do you think the Church was a huge patron of art? The Sistine Chapel illustrated the whole bible. It wasn't art for art's sake, it was for communication. Just as a lot of movies have an underlying theme.

And, 'big hollywood' directors and producers have a point (usually) to their art as well. Believe me, I know a few.

And, no, I never said artists do not put in their opinion, that is what they DO. THEY COMMUNICATE AN IDEA... THEIR IDEA.

Especially, Idie directors.. it is Hollywood that makes films so PC they are boring. Hollywood cuts out some of the meaning to make it marketable. You have it backwards on a level, Lokil.

I know all the elements that make a good film, i also know all the elements that make a good marketable film. Kevin Smith was not focused on marketablity per se.. if he was, he would have done the film on something completely less irritating to the Catholic community.

Ahem... Excuse me... I need to find the kid with the snow...

------------------
Deshabandhashcittasya dhaaranaa //1//
Concentration is the mind's fixation on one point.
Pata�jali from Yogasuutra-s of Pata�jali, 1st aphorism, Book III

[This message has been edited by abjabj (edited 01-31-2001).]

You're right, they do have an opinion:

WE'RE LIBERAL. And their way of convincing others to think like them is subliminally, in a well-communicated and often funny movie.

Not a boring speech like the rest of us do...

------------------
You're in a laundry room, You're in a laundry room, the clue just came to you?, oh.

abjabj, what a perfectly lovely ,calming effect your presence here ellicits!

Sometimes I almost wish that I'd gotten an education rather than whatever else it was I spent my time on, still, the thought only comes up when somebody comes along that I wish I was educated enough to converse with.

I was wondering if you saw and if so liked the movie "after hours" with griffin dunne
and roeanna arquett?

I always thought it was such an obvious "God
movie". If you would be so kind would you
briefly critique my mentality using the fact that that is the movie I choose to bring up.

Is it glaringly obvious that I don't see many movies or is that a sort of cool movie in a spiritual way?

Thank you for your consideration regardless of whether or not you've a reply for me.

I love honesty! and intelligence, I think the ability to appreciate ability is an ability, and like to fancy it one of mine.

___________________*****_____________________

Lokil, if I had the energy I'd try and engage you on several points in the hopes of deriving your candid clarifications on those points, for now, ....just, oh I forgot, anyway there was something you said, that I felt compelled to respond to. I'll get a good nights sleep and then see about it tommorow.

Just now I am chastizing myself for being so
intent on posting my ramblings even as the opportunity to have baklava mailed to my home
existed in the very same reality.

That Jesus.com was pretty good! I, just a few min. ago checked it out. Nice to see those sentiments w/ regard to the debilitating
effects of the perpetual discouragement lobby, in print and acknowledged as the scourge they are.

I wonder how many men out of , oh say 100
are of a similar mentality. The prospect of
actually having to discover the answer , manually, is, te hehe.., baahaa ha, yawn, slap, meow, hiss, kiss , goodnight-is only gonna be reached by default.

Then what if I did run into one and , no?,
what if's bite , how'd you know about the laundry?

Better put myself to bed now, gotta practice
that one.
I sure wish there was somebody to tell me what to do that I could listen to!!!haruumph





------------------
=/\__/\=
>'0"0'<
>>>Y<<<

Actually, I would say 50% or less of the 'popular movies' are liberal-minded. Especially as 'liberal' as Dogma...

There are not many people that want to be reminded that they are going to hell every time they watch a movie. They watch movies to escape from their lives for a moment, without letting the time too far down the dump. Highly conservative movies just don't cut it for most of us. Neither do the 'artst-fartsy' movies (you have to think too hard).

Some people that share the same opinion as Kevin Smith are not liberals. I am not a liberal. I am just educated.

Did you ever notice that most highly educated/or plain out brilliant people were/are not very traditional. The US public schools lump the academically gifted in with the intellectually challenged.. lol. I guess intelligence is just as much of a fluke as, say Down Syndrome. A birth defect..

winki... you are contagious. I am babbling now.

The movie you mentioned, nope, haven't seen it. I haven't seen a movie in months. in fact, this is the first week I have been able to use the computer or read in a couple of months. My vision was screwed up.

I don't keep up mainstream movies too much. I figure if it is good, i will hear about it and eventually watch it. is it fairly recent? Tell me about it... I might make that my first movie after my medical ordeal

Actually, I am going to start a new thread for this... we are way off-topic

------------------
Deshabandhashcittasya dhaaranaa //1//
Concentration is the mind's fixation on one point.
Pata�jali from Yogasuutra-s of Pata�jali, 1st aphorism, Book III

Thank You for being so structural abjbj,

You start that post...

In response though to your terrible translation of my being...

I never implied that movies have to be CONSERVATIVE. I was merely stating that (this shouldn't be new to you...?) the left specifically the Hollywood left has an agenda just like business, and enviornmentalists do. You seem to equate liberal with "happy" and conservative with going to hell (not very enlightened in my book) You should read my post on Word Abuse.

If you were roundly educated you'd be a conservative, it's when you're educated and decide to leave out facts you become a liberal. That's why we win on the issues. No emotion here...I'm not going to re-emphasize what I have already said.

Yes, I have noticed that 'brilliant" people are very non traditional but I think that's because it's in their nature to "forge new grounds", etc...

To Winki: No I haven't seen the movie but from reviews I checked out, it's about this dude that loses his way home and the noirish journey he has while meeting a variety of different people...?

The last good movie I saw was "Requiem for a Dream" I saw Pi aswell, I think Darren Aronofsky has a bright future.

------------------
You're in a laundry room, You're in a laundry room, the clue just came to you?, oh.

Jesus rapes me!

I didn't want to have to tell you but it's true, jesus rapes me and he had to leave but he said when I get into heaven he's going to be waiting for me so I'm gonna make sure I get into hell.

Why does your god allow this?

My gods gonna kick the shit out of you god, and satin is gonna kill jesus.

------------------
Don't go down without a fight!

shouldn't this be in the my god can beat the shit out of your god forum?

whatever it is you believe; whether it be that god exists, that god doesn't exist, that the sky really is black, and you've just been told it's blue because that's what you see.

you must be prepare for the possibility of being wrong.

i believe in god, don't know if i believe jesus was the son of god though.

here's my take on the story of the birth of jesus.

you're looking at a very strict people, no child shall be born out of wedlock. here you have a girl who ends up pregnant, when confronted as to the reason why, in a fit of panic of raising a child as a whore because no man would want you after giving birth out of wedlock she blurts out "it was god who impregnated me"

you know women said this in the past with these beliefs going on, and the first man who said he didn't believe her was probably the father in the first abortion.

the lineage fit for mary though according to prophecy, she actually had a way out, they had to go to bethlehem so nobody in nazareth would be aware she was even pregnant.

a meteor streaks across the sky some shepherds in a field see it and believe it be a sign from god and follow it.

with the same probability as running across a rolled over car and given the opportunity to save a life, these shepherds stumble across mary and joseph and when finding out their little story, give further conviction to the story of the child being the son of god.

jesus grows up his whole life hearing this from his mother and father, and 30 years into his life he believes it, tries to fullfil a prophecy that was probably given to give hope to the hebrews who were slaves in egypt, then in rome ends fulfilling it one step further by being killed as a revolutionary, which makes him a martyr to his people.

whom this day don't believe he was the messiah prophecied.

the masons(a religion supposedly around since the time of solomon, and the self-proclaimed creators of geometry, we give it to the greeks) believe in another metaphor for jesus christ.

that jesus christ represents the year, the 12 deciples were the 12 months, his crucifixion was the start of winter, three days later he arose from the dead, 3 months later flowers bloom grass grows, trees give forth their fruit as spring arrives.

is it coincidence that we celebrate easter within a couple weeks of the vernal equinox(the first day of spring), celebrating a death and resurrection that takes place in nature which we hope we can attribute to ourselves as well.

just as with evolution(which is a theory), you take ideas proposed by different men, who have different ideas of the same thing, and WE ALL(diluted included) choose one that makes the most sense to us, that fulfills something within us, that allows us to wake up in the morning, that allows us to sleep at night.

whatever it is.

has anybody heard of occam's razor?

the simplest explanation is usually the truth.



[This message has been edited by lostmind (edited 01-31-2001).]

Spiritualness comes from within.

BURN THAT FUCKING BOOK.

and btw, ride to where?
and btw, the movies are todays stained glass was pretty cool.
and btw, everything about Jesus and the solar system and be found at: www.hiddenmeanings.com

I believe, that is where you got all that.. no?

Spiritualness.....comes........from.....within............Spiritualness.......... comes...... from...... within......

NOT WE, NOT THEM. IN.

I
I
I
SPIRITUALNESS COMES FROM WITHIN.
SPIRITUALNESS COMES FROM WITHIN.

SAY I

everything lostmind says POINTS TO THE GIANT BLUE SCREEN that says there is no religion!
*POINTS TO THE GIANT BLUE SCREEN THAT READS: "THERE IS NO RELIGION"*

thank you! Why!?! BECAUSE WE EACH MOLD IT INTO OUR OWN SO WE CAN WAKE UP HAPPY IN THE MORNING.

BAM you fucking dumbass's
this is LIFE right NOW NOW NOW! I'm sick of bitching and moaning and searching for answers and truths and whatifs and how comes!

THIS IS REALITY! we are interacting in a giant surface of REALITY with one shot at it!

ONE... shot! 1, THE LONELIEST number you'll ever KNOW!! 1!

Get out, start living, don't waste your Sundays.... and

SPIRITUALNESS COMES FROM WITHIN.

How, IT'S SIMPLE.

i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i

Thanks abjabj for supporting my position.
Never let the media tell you what to do. However, you can occasionaly find something that agrees with the way you feel, that's why I mentioned Dogma.
By the way, do the movies Clerks and Chasing Amy have Jay and Silent Bob too.

[This message has been edited by Prometheus (edited 01-31-2001).]

The timeline of Kevin Smith:

Clerks -> Mallrats -> Chasing Amy -> Dogma

All have Jay and Silent Bob.

Jay and Silent Bob.. hehehe

Lokil: i will certainly take a look at your other thread. But maybe you should think about something as well.

A large percentage of movies maide are relaying a individual 'experience'. Any type of art of this sort tries to let the audience identify with the character(s). Movies usually focus on indivudial human experiences.

Coincidently, liberalism also focuses on the individual (or claims to... I have my own complaints with modern liberalism). Thus, it is completely POSSIBLE for almost all movies to be assumed to have a liberal meaning.

Modern liberalism is basically socialism. A truly liberal movie would resemble the theme in some of the best films from the USSR in the early days (very good films) on some level. In which, yes... I can smell the political attitude if one is purposely placed. But you have to also understand that just because someone has a more liberal (modern or original definition), doesn't always mean there is a hidden agenda.

Now, to explain why I went to such an extreme in making my point about conservative movies: Your example and complaint was just as extreme. The opposite of what you were implying - I can think of some good Fundie movies...

Your hopeful thinking and quick/careless remark in regards to Dogma and the Holywood 'machine' (which wasn't very enlightened either) put the conversation where it is. You will have to forgive my excitement.

Round education doesn't normally lead to a conservative outlook... nor does it lead to a extremely liberal one either. Usually you end up in the middle somewhere. You would have to leave out quite a bit of information to be a conservative as well. The best and most extreme example would be a Fundie.

Just to reitterate: I never claimed that all educated individuals are liberal. I just said they usually aren't traditional.

Your thread on word abuse should be interesting... i hope you didn't claim you were exempt either, my friend. There is a big difference between most of my statements and your translations of them.

------------------
Deshabandhashcittasya dhaaranaa //1//
Concentration is the mind's fixation on one point.
Pata�jali from Yogasuutra-s of Pata�jali, 1st aphorism, Book III

Lokil:

As art transmits a sense of life, values and ideas, in essence all art is a form of propaganda whose content is determined by those who are making the art. Thus, if, as you point out, most movie makers today are "liberal" most movies will have a "liberal" slant.

However, in a free market like ours, conservatives can make movies. Also the public can go see what movies they like. The ones they go to the most, make the most money, and their producers and writers and directors get the capital make more movies. Its a virtuous circle. In essence, if you complain that most of the movies made are liberal, and they make the most money, then the most of the viewing public is "liberal."

But as abj said, who wants to go see a fundie film about how we're all going to hell.

Incidently, I looked at the most successful movies, like Star Wars, for example. Where is the liberal propaganda in Star Wars? Its pretty much a retelling of the US war of independence or say WWII in many ways (ever notice how the Imperials all seem to wear German like uniforms and speak in a British accents?). Braveheart, rather conservative movie to me. Or is it the rebellion that is "liberal?" in this? After all, conservatives like to keep the social order the same...

I admit, Titanic was a a practical visual telling of Marxian BS, which almost made me puke in places. But artistically it was beautiful. And being a Titanic freak since a kid, I loved the CGI and sets.

Yes, Hollyweird does tend to insert liberal and even commie ideas, but it tends to present a pleasant sense of life, which is what sells. I am sure, conservative films with positive sense of life will sell too. HEck, I was really moved by Patton. Excellent movie. Great soldier and patriot (which is what brought tears to my eyes watching it).

But look, religious films do sell, and get made. Look at Prince of Egypt. I liked it, even though I don't fall into the Judeo-Christian tradition. And it was made by a very liberal director--Spielberg. So even Liberals can espouse and make movies that religious conservatives like.

IO PAN!

Theseus

Listen,

Abjbj, winki, and Theseus,

Jesus...Where do I start. Thesus I agree with most everything you said, but what I find disturbing is that you take what I say and use the "elastic clause" on it. My posts aren't the Constitution.


In short, we do not think THAT different and I respect your guy's opinions and take on the subject. Media is Liberal, not just now. They used to be commies during the first part of the 20th century and that's why we had a lot of musicals made. They have a history of propoganda. Obvious or not.

I specifically was talking about Dogma. Hollywood really has some shit with the Catholic church. When one out of three people in the industry is either gay or bi-sexual (made up figure) and here is the church condeming the acts, well...They may or may not do it intentionally. But look how they made Prometheus question Jesus's life. That shit never used to happen. I believe that questioning is necessary but it definitely should have boundaries. It should stop at the point where we start de-valuing what we once thought sacred. Take a good look at this country and I believe it is self-evident.

I didn't even see the Prince of Egypt because I don't like Whitney Houston. She is flaky, damaged, and weak. I still wouldn't have seen it if she weren't in it.

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You're in a laundry room, You're in a laundry room, the clue just came to you?, oh.

[This message has been edited by Lokil (edited 02-01-2001).]

Now I see no reason not to gather at Winki's house that is yet to be for a celebratory slice of baklava.

------------------
You're in a laundry room, You're in a laundry room, the clue just came to you?, oh.

Well, you missed a good movie. Prince of Egypt was very good.

Yes, I understand your point, but you must recognise that your generalities concerning the specific movie you used as an example is exempt from your example. You should have used a real hollywood movie... not one from and Indie Director. And I doubt you will find a recent hollywood movie that is as bold. Maybe the closest thing would be Stigmata. But that is right mild compared to Dogma.

As for questioning Jesus' life, or questioning the church - There are OBVIOUSLY some Early Christian literatures you have missed reading. As I said before, you have to leave out information to be a conservative as well. There are many, many pieces of evidence you refuse to take into account concerning Jesus, early Christian history, history or the church, etc...

I am not telling you there is no value in Christianity, but there are other elements you should take into consideration before you take the church's teachings at face value. You have failed to do so from what I have gathered about you thus far.

Nag Hammadi Library - Gnosis.org
Other Gnostic Scriptures found elsewhere - Gnosis.org
Small excerpt from Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels- one of the best books on the subject, I recommend you read it.

These are the books that the Catholic Church vigorously destroyed in order to univeraslize the church. These books were written during the time of Jesus, for the most part. They are much earlier than the books of the New Testament. Many were written by his diciples themselves... including Mary. The most popluar of the texts is the gospel of St. Thomas, which is what the movie Stigmata is based on. The movie shows the attitude of the Catholic Church in regards to the rediscovery of the texts (as well as the rest). So, the movie is very fair considering they have kept it from the public for 2,000 years. I wouldn't doubt it if there was a copy of all of these texts sitting in the Vatican. But that is pure speculation on my part.

You have plenty of things to read here, but there is much more than this. Do some research before your make assumptions about the facts. And don't admonish others for already doing their research, or agreeing with the general atmosphere of Dogma... they might see something you don't.

------------------
Deshabandhashcittasya dhaaranaa //1//
Concentration is the mind's fixation on one point.
Pata�jali from Yogasuutra-s of Pata�jali, 1st aphorism, Book III

Diluted couldn't be any more right.

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Don't go down without a fight!

Again I will state that I questioed the Catholic Church long before I saw Dogma. Personaly, I prefer the Wiccan beleif system, even though (for the time being) I am an agnostic.

For as much as we talk about the media and how it sways the masses of sheep towards the ideas it espouses, through news, movies, TV shows, or what have you, there's a basic, underlying fact- people will not watch what they don't want to see.

There is a lot of negativity towards the Catholic church in art today. It can't be rightly blamed on a hidden agenda amongst Hollywood's elite. The basic truth is that people, as a whole, are questioning Christianity, and artists are giving them what they want to see.

Did Hollywood & Co. begin, and the people followed? Or, did the people question, and the media followed suit to keep up? I don't know. In many ways, it's a matter of opinion, as "chicken or the egg" contemplations generally are. It doesn't matter much, though- the questioning is going on.

I have to ask, why should there be boundaries? The beauty of humanity is its limitless potential. That potential can be for good or evil, but when unleashed in someone, life can be very interesting. Maybe you don't think that's a good thing, and that's fine.. I do, and we're both welcome to our opinions on the matter.

With regards to Dogma- like many, many, many other things, it made people think, I'm sure. I doubt too many people had some sort of faith conversion based on it, though. Questioning helps people sort out what they feel is right for them. Have you ever felt unhappy, but you weren't sure why? I used to, much more often than I do now. I would always question myself, what's wrong, why do I feel this way? Eventually, I started to figure myself out.

Some people need more prodding from outside sources, like movies, to do that, but if they do, they're the better for it. Keep in mind, just because someone questions their faith doesn't mean they'll give it up. If that were the case, that would be the sign of a very poor religion. In some cases, it makes that person realize their faith is true, and they feel that they haven't been led astray by what they've been taught. That's equally as good as someone coming to terms with the fact that Christianity, or anything else, is NOT for them. The worst thing a person can do is live a lie, I feel.

You're in a laundry room, You're in a laundry room , the clue just came to you, oh.

abjabj wrote:
"greenspam: How do you know Jesus was without 'sin'?

There are descriptions of Jesus losing his temper and even striking his fellow man."
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Since when is "Anger" a Sin. jesus was angry that people put up shops in front of Temples. Jesus Pushed not stuck that man. and threw a fit and tossed tables over with store goods.

as far as being sexually active, I never heard of that. i really dont want to touch that. I think the bible could have been altered during translations. I know he sort of lost his temper with a fig tree and made it wither away. and once told his mom (mary) to mind her own business when she asked him to turn water into wine. But that sexual thing sounds like Television Sensationalism. Did you watch one of them TLC stories on Jesus? they are mostly "hear say"