Two questions: Which is more inhumane, raising animals and killing them for food OR raising the same animals and keeping them imprisioned for their entire lives in order to produce goods such as eggs or milk? I attend a college with a number of people who are vegetarians because of they dislike the thought of killing animals for food, yet they seem perfectly happy to use little animal inmates to produce their meals.

2) What are some of your views on animal husbandry? Irregardless of working conditions (factory or free range), the animals are still in a form of bondage.

In my opinion, while a vegetarian diet can be useful when a person has health concerns relating to meat consumption or just a general dislike of meat, I feel that a vegetarian lifestyle based upon the ethical treatment of animals argument is illogical and pointless.

there are many companies that do not "imprison" their animals.

not to mention the organic farms all over the country that produce free range milk, with no chemicals, and so on, i do agree that its kind of pointless to be a vegan for the animals, its not if me not eating meat is going to stop the killing and tourtue, oh well i do it for health

Eating meat is natural. Raising livestock is practical.
Why would it be ok for other animals to eat meat, but not for humans?

My mother and father do not eat Meat they believe that how the animals being killed for there products is a bad thing. Also being a buddhist they dont believe in instigating a death.

However His Holiness The Dalia Lama does eat meat but he only excepts meat as a offering never as "go get me some steak"

Peace Renegade,

well i'm not saying were not supposed to eat meat, its just the way we are doing it is very unhealthy and disgusting, humans are not just "animals" we have large brains with which to conteplate our eating habbits animals dont have that lux, but remember there are pleanty of veg animals too

Their are plenty of animals that eat ONLY meat.
Do you suggest we revert back to hunter-gather to give the animals more of a fighting chance?

With our larger brain we have the ability to give unintelligent animals, such as cows, feelings that are mainly only experienced by humans

Not eating meat is a choice. Eating meat is an instinct.

its a choice man, if not then why so many vegans?

I'm fine with the choice, even if i don't agree with it; the preachers are what bother me.

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Originally posted by Bogey Man:
Eating meat is natural. Raising livestock is practical.
Why would it be ok for other animals to eat meat, but not for humans?

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Eating meat isn't "natural" any more than farming is natural. What is natural is to eat whatever is available and that sustains life. It just happens that for a long time meat was more economical than farming it was easier to keep animals than it was to farm, and usually safer too (drought, disease, etc) however, you can't have a complete diet with meat alone, it's just not possible. With veggies you can though. Also people aren't born craving meat, meat substitutes are made for people who already like meat and so they need something similiar. Babies don't like meat when they're little, in fact most pediatricians say to mix meat with fruit or something else that disquises the taste. As far as raising animals being practical that is no longer the case. Because we now understand how to better farm it's more effective economically for us to farm. Compare todays farming techniques with digging a hole in the ground, dropping a seed in there, and then pissing on it. You can feed alot more people with a vegan diet than you can with a meat-based diet. So it's not practical to raise meat for consumption. Or eggs, or milk or anything. Really if people would switch from eating so much meat to eating more non-meat things then alot more people could be fed in the world. As far as "moral" issues with eating animals I don't have any. I'd eat you if you were closer/more tasty/easier to run-down/etc. It's just that the cost in terms of life and limb due to man's laws have made it economically expensive to eat you instead of something else. Which is something that animals do, though they also have social issues with eating their own species if they are social creatures. But sharks eat sharks all the time. It's not that humans are too good to eat meat, just that we don't need to any more and it's relatively expensive. Oh and by the way I'm not a vegetarian. Just because I recognize something as true doesn't mean that I have to do it. But I will raise my children on a diet that is not meat-centered.

Eating meat and the way we raise livestock doesn't bother me except for Veal. Which i loved until i found out how it's raised.

It is not practical to try to change a country's diet just because a different country can't afford it. Teach those who can't afford it to be vegan, because I'm not about to stop.
If you could think of an alternative way to getting meat, then I'd listen, but don't try to say the consumption of meat is not natural. If you give an animal a choice between something it likes to eat, that will sustain him, and something he doesn't like, that will sustain him, what do you bet he chooses what he likes?
Another reason you wouldn't eat me is because you can develope serious diseases from being cannibal

Meat substitute could never replace a slab of ribs.


[This message has been edited by Bogey Man (edited 07-29-2002).]

You people saying that using have the brain's we do we went off course of evolution, what if building, farming and doing what we do is what are evolutionary gene's were trying to do? Alien's did not all of a sudden come down and zaped us all to have these idea's that we do, not that im saying I dont belive in aliens.

I'm sure if are planet lives that long that like elephents will become smart as us and do exact same thing we did on this planet.

What im saying is that human's are natrual, what we are doing is natrual, we need to eat and we found says to produce food in much easyer manner's, You think the wolf's hunted in packs at first? do you think snakes and crocidiles hide and wait for the food cames to them did at first? no they evoloved to adapt, and we adapted...

-Chibi

-Saying something smart for once

I WANT ME CHICKEN AND ME MEAT.

I love the taste of meat, yum yum, especially on the grill. I also love salads, with a lot of variety of course. But most importantly I LIKE MEAT.

Anyone feel a heart attack comming on?

-=MaTrIXSpiirit=-

Not sure if anyone's alrady brought this up (only skimmed the posts) but there's probally a good reason we have some sharp pointy teeth that sure wern't made for tearin' at a salad.

good point

animals: Despite the common belief that drinking milk or eating eggs does not kill animals, commercially-raised dairy cows and egg-laying chickens, whether factory-farmed or 'free range,' are slaughtered when their production rates decline.


environment: Animal agriculture takes a devastating toll on the earth. It is an inefficient way of producing food, since feed for farm animals requires land, water, fertilizer, and other resources that could otherwise have been used directly for producing human food

health The consumption of animal fats and proteins has been linked to heart disease, colon and lung cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and a number of other debilitating conditions. Cows' milk contains ideal amounts of fat and protein for young calves, but far too much for humans. And eggs are higher in cholesterol than any other food, making them a leading contributor to cardiovascular disease. The American Dietetic Association reports that vegetarian/vegan diets are associated with reduced risks for all of these conditions.

"Animal agriculture takes a devastating toll on the earth. It is an inefficient way of producing food, since feed for farm animals requires land, water, fertilizer, and other resources that could otherwise have been used directly for producing human food"

Ok.. So our vegtables just pop out of trees for us? no. Farming Requires Land Water, Fertilizer Dozens of pesticides and other stuff you dont know. Human food?

"health The consumption of animal fats and proteins has been linked to heart disease, colon and lung cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and a number of other debilitating conditions. Cows' milk contains ideal amounts of fat and protein for young calves, but far too much for humans. And eggs are higher in cholesterol than any other food, making them a leading contributor to cardiovascular disease. The American Dietetic Association reports that vegetarian/vegan diets are associated with reduced risks for all of these conditions."

Ok.. cholesteral does not cause heart attacks.. Ever heard of someone dieing from hardening of the veins? no. Your artiries are muscles that crack.. and it can kill you.. but god created cholestoral which is goopy and clogs up the crack.. saving your life. ive never heard of an American dietary association.. because there name is illegal then because the Amercian Dental Association has those initials. so you probably made that up. I think protein is a thing by itself there are no Animal Protein. well i could be wrong. Noone directly eats Fat from a steak.. i dont think. And vegitarian only diets are very unhealthy unless you take vitamins for you Minerals from meat. Vegatables are loaded with tons of pesticides not that healthy i dont think.

First of all, animal agriculture is an inefficient way of producing food. In order to nourish, a cow for instance for food, you must grow food to feed the cow that will just be killed later on. Instead of going through this unnecessary measure of growing food to produce evidentially less food we could just eat what the cow eats, or use the land to grow other fruit and vegetables. It takes about 50 lbs. of grain to produce just 1 lb. of meat, think of all the mouths you could feed by not eating cattle.

Secondly, high cholesterol has been linked to heart disease. Cholesterol is one type of fat known as sterol and it is an important component of body tissue. It serves as a filter for the steroid hormones of the kidneys and sex organs. This type of fat does not dissolve in water. It needs to be combined with a certain protein to produce Lipoprotein, which is dissolved in blood and then transported throughout the body.

High cholesterol is the condition when total cholesterol (TC) is higher than normal leading to the hardening and clogging of blood vessels. This will result in Ischemic heart disease causing insufficient blood flow to nourish the heart. The patient will experience pain and tightness in the chest especially on exertion. The heart muscles may cease to work leading to a heart attack. No matter what part of an animal you eat you can not avoid cholesterol.

And about the American Dietary Association, I did not make it up. You should really look into the things you say, before you accuse someone of making up something like that. You just proved you don�t really know what your talking about. I really think you should dig your head out from under the sand.


[This message has been edited by veganpeace (edited 08-25-2002).]

[This message has been edited by veganpeace (edited 08-25-2002).]

Its funny how you think the bs the drug companys give you is real.. it is only Half true. Heart disease is not caused by cholesteral it just saved your life. They find it in the heart because your heart artiries are bursting.. Needing cholestoral to fill in the cracks and holes. The main cause and any major disease is not enough oxygen.. And acid builds up in your system because of lack of minerals.. Like calcium.. your body is made to funtion on calcium and it cant heal anything without enough calcium to make enough oxygen. About the ADA (american dietic assosiation) unless it agreed with the one before it ADA (American Dental Associaton) they will have a lawsuit coming up like WWF. We can grow all the vegatables we want to feed the cows why are you complaining.. If you get enough why doesnt everyone Go straight Vegetarian.. Because humans are omnivores (Eats both Meat and Vegatables). Everyone likes meat noone is just gonna stop because they kill animals for meat. what did you think we did in the past? Let them jump out of there skin?

"High cholesterol is the condition when total cholesterol (TC) is higher than normal leading to the hardening and clogging of blood vessels." Blood vessels do not harden.. did you ask your doctor that? The drug company isnt gonna lose there 80 billion dollars because you can prevent any disease by getting 2 hours of sun on your face and taking more calcium (Helps body produce oxygen getting rid of acid.) I seriously ask you to talk to scientists who do the research doctors sit there and make money.

quote:

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Originally posted by veganpeace:
First of all, animal agriculture is an inefficient way of producing food. In order to nourish, a cow for instance for food, you must grow food to feed the cow that will just be killed later on. Instead of going through this unnecessary measure of growing food to produce evidentially less food we could just eat what the cow eats, or use the land to grow other fruit and vegetables. It takes about 50 lbs. of grain to produce just 1 lb. of meat, think of all the mouths you could feed by not eating cattle.

Secondly, high cholesterol has been linked to heart disease. Cholesterol is one type of fat known as sterol and it is an important component of body tissue. It serves as a filter for the steroid hormones of the kidneys and sex organs. This type of fat does not dissolve in water. It needs to be combined with a certain protein to produce Lipoprotein, which is dissolved in blood and then transported throughout the body.

High cholesterol is the condition when total cholesterol (TC) is higher than normal leading to the hardening and clogging of blood vessels. This will result in Ischemic heart disease causing insufficient blood flow to nourish the heart. The patient will experience pain and tightness in the chest especially on exertion. The heart muscles may cease to work leading to a heart attack. No matter what part of an animal you eat you can not avoid cholesterol.

And about the American Dietary Association, I did not make it up. You should really look into the things you say, before you accuse someone of making up something like that. You just proved you don�t really know what your talking about. I really think you should dig your head out from under the sand.


[This message has been edited by veganpeace (edited 08-25-2002).]

[This message has been edited by veganpeace (edited 08-25-2002).]

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We should chew grass, vomit it up, and swallow again? Some nourishment there. You'd have Stomach acid wearing away at your esophgas. Not good. ask anyone with acid reflux disease. Not to mention it eats away at your tooth enamel. Eat what they cow eats? why not eat the cow, sheep, pig, whatever? Humans have done this for thousands of years, without technology. What's so hard about it?

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Originally posted by TheMadBonger:
Blood vessels do not harden.

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Then what's this term "atherosclerosis" I keep hearing physicians sling around?

"ATHEROSCLEROSIS is a disease that can affect people at any age, although it usually doesn't pose a threat until people reach their forties or fifties. It is characterized by a narrowing of the arteries caused by cholesterol-rich plaques of immune-system cells. Key risk factors for atherosclerosis, which can be genetic and/or environmental, include: elevated levels of cholesterol and triglyceride in the blood, high blood pressure and cigarette smoke.
A protein called apolipoprotein E, which can exist in several different forms, is coded for by a gene found on chromosome 19."

Hmm i dont see anything about hardening of blood vessels.. oh well maybe your doctor doesnt know the whole truth. Or something.. you should do some reasearch too.

back to eating meat, vs not eating meat, the difference i see is back in the day meat was raised without all the factory farming techniquies all the chemicals and what not, which people injest into thier bodies when they comsume the animal, this is very unhealthy for people to eat these chemicals, and the same holds true for plants, but you can get both organic plants and animals, that would be the way to go,

There's alot of misinformation in this post, i'm wondering how old you guys are? Obviously it's a personal choice to eat meat or not, i don't eat it often but I still eat it once in a while. The point is you can get all the vitamins minerals including iron, calcium all the stuff found in meat, where do you think it comes from in meat? The problem is when people become vegetarian or vegan they start eating the same vegetables over and over, same with meat eaters, diversity is the key to life. Mix it up a lil bit and there will be no problems. Why have I cut down on my intake of meat? Cuz i've been to a factory slaughterhouse, and this is in canada, in the states they're about 10 times the size slaughtering thousands of cows a day, anywayz the smell is enough to make you retch days later, not to mention the general amount of filth EVERYWHERE and the sheer number of cow carcasses that get dropped on the floor. You can also literally smell the fear of death coming off the cows and that is just not cool. If you're serious about eating meat check one out sometime, there are other avenues than the ones that everybody takes, do the research.

eating meat may be natural but raising animals for slaughter isn't

The only reason I'm a vegetarian is out of a misanthropic gesture. I love animals 10x more than I love the Earth-killing human scum! Besides, whenever ground beef is cooked, it smells like rank pussy. Also, meat doesn't taste well as a leftover!

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Originally posted by KamikazePimp:
Besides, whenever ground beef is cooked, it smells like rank pussy.

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That's because you aren't cooking it right, are buying meat over the recommended buy date, or are doing something else.

The one type of beef i will not eat comes from Burger King. What the hell do they do to those beef pattys to make them so disgusting.?

Arby's roast beef is safe, although it has a funky taste sometimes. overall, i eat meat when i feel like i need to and always with vegitables of some kind (hot peppers!!!!!)

Humans are concious of what we do, and soon shall other animals that are before us, respect and we will be respected.

www.notmilk.com www.milksucks.com

Wonder what they do to make milk so addictive.


reagardless, i have never been one to drink milk or dairy on areagular basis, even cheese gets to me after a while.

After reading all of this, i woudl have to say that milk is public enemy number 1.

oh yes, been there, hosted by peta right? I dont fully trust 100% everything that comes from that site, but they do claim that beer is more healthy for you than milk, which is good enough for me, wheres that other thirty-pack dammit...

Yes, I would believe that beer is better for you!

But, people dont exactly sit down and drink a 12 pak of milk.

shit i know people who drink a gallon a day...

Humans are omnivores, if we were not supposed to eat meat we would be herbivores. Besides What are vegitarians but Plant killers: they only have to grow the plant to kill it later. Wait i got it! Why dont they all stop eating so they have no chance of offending a living thing! Besides, we do need meat. If we eat everything but meat we lose out on some importaint nutrients that only come from animal cells.

oh for those of you who love animals more than humans, thats why you dont eat them... GO EAT SOYLENT GREEN (aka ground up dead people)

ok space i'm going to assume you have the brain of a 10 year old, and you havent taken the time to read the rest of this thread, all of this has been discussed, humans can live on all kinds of food, and i get all the nutrition and vitamans, protien's ect and i havent eaten an animal in years, so again you come on here and post stupid shit that gets shot down, if you ever decide to come back please back up your claims, show me some "proof" and my opinion of your intelligence may improve, notice the "may", i dont eat animals because there too "cute" i do it for health reasons if you want more info on this, such as medical reports, just ask, every pound of beef you eat introduces almost as many toxins into your body as a pack of ciggs. I want you to think of me when you are thirty laying in a hospital bed dying of cancer, i want you to think, mabey i should have listened to those damn hippies and done my own reserach instead of pretending to be smart, can you do that for me?

I don't eat meat, eggs or milk just because I don't like eating them, they don't taste good to me. I really don't care if other people eat them. Its better for you if you eat them i'm sure, I get really sick and I'm always cold now.

Has no one have any feelings for the plants! They get grown in artifical enviroments just to be eaten in vast amounts! Think of the plants, you plant killers! Animals are not concisly(SP) aware of themselves. Kidda like a baby. They are not aware of their unreversable death. They live in peacful bliss in ignorance of their lives! So if we look after animals, not being cruel or overkilling them then whats wrong with the passing over of an animal for the benefit of food for mankind?

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Originally posted by ScorchedWeasel:
Not sure if anyone's alrady brought this up (only skimmed the posts) but there's probally a good reason we have some sharp pointy teeth that sure wern't made for tearin' at a salad.

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Your teeth were made for meat but the intestines of humans weren't made to digest meat. they are constructed for the digestian of veggies.