gas maskes and battans, and tear gas verses(for the mostly) people with only a bandana around them and trying to peacfully present the facts,

i say when you are attacked for voicing your right as a human being, there is no excuss for the imf and the globalisation to alter our essential work for the green planet,

bring your own gas mask, and learn to defend your self.!!!!

------------------------
totally nihilistic

I head on the radio an interview of a man who's knee was cut and was unable to walk after he'd been shot by a rubber bullet.

that shit hurtz,

they arnt rubber,

thats the slang,

they can take out your eye,

and we should be allowed to defend our self with as their rules apply, i know this as i went and did the security course that they do for their training, that they can apply EQUAL and the same amount of force to any would be attacker, and that is what they are doing to us, attacking us right, so i got my security license(hahaha) and now i can freaken order the battans the tear gas shit all the cool shit, but my favorate is to grab two of them and crack their headz together then pat the horse.

-------------------
totally nihilistic

The material is Zytel plastic, a type of nylon. 80 on a Shore D durometer, about at as hard as the plastic that makes up the outside of your monitor.

The term non-lethal has been done away with for the term less-lethal. Which is suited.
And like I said in Spurious, if anyone ever, for no apparent reason shoots me with a damned bean bad round at anytime, I'm going to kill them. Protest or no protest.

It is a sad sad world though, when people can't speak their minds, even peacefully without facing chemical weapons and cops that appear to enjoy inflicting pain.

shit man how do you know all that stuff,

i like your attitude of you only get shit if you take it,

see all those protests, arnt violent, imagine if the pigs wernt there, there would be no violence, the only reason why that shit goes on is becasue they provoke ppl, and stir up their emotions so they cant act and think clearly,

kind of like a scratch and dent sale after christmas.

I agree, I don't really think that people would get violent with no cops around. The violence is prolly caused from people that feel as if the cops are there to stop them from being heard.

Is it too late to change things, though? If people had a major protest, and minimal security was on hand, what are the chances that part of the crowd came ready to fight.. and will do so anyway if no police are there?

I'd say come ready to protest, but be ready to fight. I think people protesting should shoot back, with the real thing.

Note I do understand if things get carried away and people start rioting and messing with innocent people, their vexes should be with those that they disagree with. Never a perons that's just there.

Hmmm, hard topic, I suppose there is no great answer or reply. People just have to know what's right, what's wrong, and care enough to behave.

i see it all evolvoing, when the earth(it s now) is on its last legs, an extreme group of psycho's like me, will get a pro active violent side together, and kiddnap the headz of the company's for intimidation tactics, and issue terroist threats to all the summits etc,

*shit did i say that out load*


ahhh fuck man.

But wouln't the media just say that the protester don't have a good opinion because they use violence to bring it across. Take for example the civil right's movements in the United States in the last century. Would it have been as effective if Martin Luther King had preached violence instead of peace?

I don't think anyone implied to use violence as a means to protest. But I do agree.

yeah man, you see that is the age long debate,

well i for one am sick of the passive shit

i know that violence should be used as a last resort,

but what do we have to work with here,??

lets see,

we know that the companies are corrupt,
and damaging the planet beyound repair,

we know that they just avoid us, when we present know alternatives to the problem at hand, and they refuse to change their course and want to destroy what they can whilst they exist here,

so really, they are being violent to us , by altering our dna for one, by polluting the human race and its earth(way more important)


now you must come to the realization as i did years ago, that the human race is a violent natured, from the cave man to now, why do you think aggression and power are made up of, look at the united snakes, what is it that makes them powerfull, not their dollor, not their culture? but the polluting shit in the form of missiles, the same with any so called super dumb cunt power,

so ppl, i am afraid that violence is the last resort, and if you all thnk that we are not at the end , if you think that the planet is not on its last legs, than i hate to break this too you but wake the fuck up, take time out of your part of aiding the multinaionals by your tv and vcr and the rest of the meaning less crap that you all take for granted(no offence ) and play your part in the demise of this weakness, this is a reactoin nature,,,,

they know that the alternatives are their, and to force them to read it and obey nature, is really part of our nature, as they are FORCING US to live by their rules,

so real, man think what you like of me man, you can call me a thug, but at the end of the day if i was to get the result, i wouldent care if you called me sch bch, really.-thats the way they think,

we know we dont, but they have forces us to react in this way, think about it.

and fuck the media, they own them any wayz.

----------------------
totally nihilisitic

I despise unnecessary violence.. but if nihilistic's not right now.. he may be in the future. The near-future, at that.

I know people of all types, including a few that have pretty decent bank. One of them, I don't know exactly how much he's worth.. all I know is he probably shits more money than I'll ever see. Yeah, he's that rich. Rich enough to start a company based on one of those alternatives that people have come up with, that the big companies have rejected, and make it competitive very quickly.

He did start a business, but not in one of those areas of environmental impact; in computers. It wasn't even open for a year before he pissed off some powerful people.. and now he's going to jail.

This is over computers. Imagine what could happen to anyone who competed toe-to-toe with the oil companies, power companies, etc., those who by nature have hefty government ties.

I don't the exact details of what happened; I just have it on good word from reliable friends that he did nothing illegal. If that's the case than just pissing off the powerful- which, going into business against them alone could do- could wind someone up with a similar, or worse, fate.

It's frustrating because I've always believed that one or two wealthy people with the belief in a new way of doing things could make those ideas a reality, and now, it has to be one or two wealthy people with more connections than the other guys. I hope someone does step up.. cuz I don't want to see a civil war.. no matter what kind of feelings I have that it's unavoidable.

There is excellent first aid info on teargas, rubber bullets etc. at: WWW.corpreform.org/a16_medical_collective.html

Please download while still available.

I thought everyone might want to read this...

Published on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 in the Toronto Globe & Mail

Sinclair Stevens, minister of regional industrial expansion under Brian Mulroney, was an MP from 1972 to 1988.

A Police State in the Making
Democracy Trampled in Quebec
City
by Sinclair Stevens

I never thought I'd be writing this article, surely not in Canada. There aren't many people in this country who view free
trade as positively as I do. As industry minister in the Mulroney government, I participated in the 1985 Shamrock Summit that set the stage for our trade agreement with the United States. I was even responsible for replacing the Foreign Investment Review Agency with Investment Canada, a welcome mat for our partners to the South.

There also aren't many people who view the maintenance of law and order as a higher priority than I do.

But this past weekend, I was shocked by events in Quebec City. Shocked by what I saw, and stunned by what my wife, Noreen, and I personally experienced.

I believe Canada is right to view free trade as a model for democratic development in every corner of our hemisphere, and I was delighted to see us host the Summit of the Americas. But our government is dead wrong to behave in a manner that suggests we have forgotten what
democracy is all about.

Noreen and I arrived in Quebec City last Friday at about 5 p.m. We had heard about the so-called security fence and wanted to see it firsthand, to walk along beside it. My first view of the fence was in front of the Ch�teau Frontenac. It brought back memories of many happy visits to that hotel. But, this weekend, I could not enter: The hotel was inside the fence, I was outside.

As we walked around the perimeter, a 40-year-old chap passed us, and asked: "Where is your gas mask?" I asked what he meant. He said: "There is gas farther on -- watch out." We continued until we saw our first contingent of riot-geared police lined up three deep behind a closed
gate. They were an intimidating sight -- in battle dress, with helmets, masks, shields and assorted elaborate weapons. I was glad, this time, that they were inside the fence and we were outside.

Farther on, just before we got to Dufferin Street, there were perhaps 50 people -- protesters, it turned out -- who were standing or sitting on a small side road. At the end of the road, we saw a much larger group of riot police standing shoulder-to-shoulder, several rows deep. The
road was well away from the security fence. In fact, the fence was nowhere
in sight.

I spoke with many of the people in the street, asked them why they had gathered, why they opposed the free trade proposals. It was a lively but friendly exchange.

We were interrupted as the police down the road began an eerie drumming, rattling their riot sticks against their shields. Slowly, in unison, one six-inch step at a time, they began marching toward us. Noreen and I moved to the side of the street, as the protesters remained
stationary. Some formed V signs with their fingers.

To my horror, the police then fired tear gas canisters directly at those sitting or standing on the road.

As clouds of gas began to spread, Noreen and I felt our eyes sting and our throats bake. We pulled whatever clothing we could across our mouths. One young woman, who had been among the protesters, offered us some vinegar. "What's that for?" I asked. "It takes away the sting," she said. And it did help.

The police, however, kept advancing. One large policeman with the number 5905 on his helmet, pressed right against me and ordered me to get behind a railing. "I haven't done anything," I protested. "Why?" He simply replied: "Get behind the rail." Then he added, "and get down." I did so.

I shook my head. I never thought I would ever see this kind of police-state tactic in Canada. What we witnessed that night was mild compared to events the next afternoon.

This time, walked along the fence until we reached the gate at Ren� L�vesque Boulevard, where a great crowd had gathered that included TV cameras and reporters. I was asked for an interview by a CBC crew but, before we could begin, dozens of tear gas canisters were fired, water cannons were sprayed and rubber bullets began to hit people nearby. Three times, I felt could not breathe, my eyes were sore and
all I could do was run. In the bedlam, my wife and I were separated for almost three hours. She said she had almost passed out from the gassing.

We lost something else, besides each other, last weekend in Quebec: our innocence. This government, and some reporters, like to brand the Quebec City demonstrators as "hooligans." That is not fair. I talked to dozens of them, mostly university students, aged about 20. They came to Quebec, not to have "a good time," as some suggest, but to express their well-thought-out views on a subject that is important to them, to all of us.

I may not have agreed with their position, but I sure believe in their right to express it. The police had no cause to violently suppress it.


Some will say that a handful of demonstrators got out of hand and forced the police to take collective action. I can't agree. The police action in Quebec City, under orders from our government, was a
provocation itself -- an assault on all our freedoms.

Sinclair Stevens, minister of regional industrial expansion under Brian Mulroney, was an MP from 1972 to 1988.
--

"As you come to know the seriousness of our situation-the war, the racism, the poverty in the world-you come to realize it is not going to be changed just by words or demonstrations. It's a question of risking your life. It's a question of living your life in drastically different ways."

-Dorothy Day

yeah spiff?, that makes fucking sense to me man, all relative, your mate, has fallen for the same shit as the dood that invented the engine that could run on water, your government killed him for that.

i am surprized that your mate, if he knew you at all.. well, didnt get you pounding his head saying man there is a safer way to go about this thing, hmmm,

here is what happen here when we went to brisbane, you all ready know about how we went locally to all the houses with an alternative energy system and got people to sign up and at least educate them, right,

well it just so happens that we went in to this guys house who has invented a revolutionary rotery water energy system, that uses some sort of i cant explain it, but not the force of the water etcetc, a fucking kick ass invention or some shit okay.

and he told us that he moved from his current house becasue he took his invention to energex-which is the company here that is the fossil fuel electrical, and they said that his system would render them broke, and they couldent use it as they would loose all the jobs, and then they took his details any way, and the next few weeks he had cops and shit at his house raiding him for drugs and what it seems like, people following him

we have this dood in our ranks now, and he will be adding this invention to our company spiff, we will start locally as that is what every one needs to do, you doont need to be rich to do it, when its starts it will be like yahooo, trust me.

hey thanx for that k9babe, i am usually speeding when im there so i dont need first aid i dont feel it -lol(i dont take speed all the time)

------------------------
totally nihilistic

Wow. I'm glad you posted that.

Police would prolly be much kinder had protester's been armed. But a fine example of what global efforts have in mind, forcing you to do as the leaders see fit to benefit themselves.

I will make a promise here. If I shall ever protest in such a way, I will come with a concealed weapon. The first person that shoots my way, will be retaliated against. I will go to the protest with no intent of malice and will protest peacefully, breaking no laws, nor will I put myself in a position that is likely to be fired on (I'll stick where the more sensible people are even). However the first time I get fired on by anything I will shoot and kill the person who did so and will do my damnedest to do so to anyother who repeats that person's mal deed.

see my point now temp,

are you freaken with me!!!!!

I SAID ARE YOU FUCKING WITH ME

LETS GO!!!

He didn't have me pounding his head because I had no idea it was happening until after the fact. When I found out, it was too late.

The Real.. I appreciate your standpoint, I really do. But I think I posted once before, think of the people around you. Those riot police are using tear gas, bean bags, etc., but they have real weapons. One drop of blood flies, one body drops, and there's a full-bore bloodbath going on. The protesters would lose BADLY.

Your intentions of peace would mean approximately jack shit to the police who would fry you, the media who would revile you, and the dozens of dead and wounded, and their families, who would pound the walls and scream to their god, any god, why there had to be a psychopath in their midst that day.

If you can live with that, then hey, go to town. Just warn us when you're going to a protest so we can watch it on TV instead.

the cops will loose in the numbers though, i mean when they get all those government dogs(fetch boys) there, now days their cannot be a serious sunday bloody sunday type of incident with out people getting sued and heat comming on, like the l.a riots happening, if the people out number the cops, then man they are not going to shoot 3000 'reals' or are they come, on, okay, im with you man, i know what your sayen, but i dont thing the real and every one else would shoot a pig, just defend them selfs,

nothing scares the shit out of pigs more(i know this from the rioting security course i did) than a whole bunch of mother fuckers rampaging towards them,, hahaha

numbers are the key to every thing!!!

----------------------------
totally nihilistic

How about this, an organized group of at least 100people and 5 about 300yds away that can accurately shoot that far.

I do know police are armed beyond less lethal weapons/ammo.

I bet 100 well armed, trained people could take on up to 300 police officers if surprised. Cops aren't trained in warfare nor do they carry the weapons to do so. Most would be armed with a handgun, arm the others with the likes of a rifle and you can barrel through car doors and the likes. I can also set up a person (or 2) with a select fire FAL with .308 AP and about 1500rnds of ammo, now we can shoot through walls to and lay effective cover fire.

But even if such a thing happened and even worked, where would it go from there?

Another email update I received about Quebec City.


Please keep in mind: State horror is not over in Quebec City!!

Please distribute this call for solidarity as widely as possible!


I talked to someone with the Quebec Legal Team today. The situation for the
prisoners is very bad. Immediately after the arrests, (as was reported), many protestors were stripped, searched, and hosed down with cold water. THis occurred in very public spaces. Many were also held on a bus for more than 8 hours without access to a washroom or food. While in jail, they have been beaten, and several continue to be denied access to a lawyer and denied a bail hearing.

The Quebec Legal Team will be posting more detailed information on their website soon with information on the status of those in jail and ways in which people can do jail solidarity (hopefully this afternoon).

As soon as it up, I will forward it on, but I encourage others to check it regularly for new info.

What people can begin doing now is to call the Ministry of Public Security 418) 643-2112. The minister is Serge Menard
The Ministry of Justice: (418) 643-4210 or fax (418) 646-0027. The
minister is Paul Betin (I think)
The Jail: 418 890 5507

In calling, one can express outrage at the treatment of prisoners, demand that the solidarity demands of those in jail are met, and/or demand the unconditional release of those still in jail.

Donations are also badly needed. They can be sent to:
Quebec Legal Defence
1615 Bernard
Outremont, Quebec
H2V 1X2

One final quick comment is that there continues to be a vigil outside the Orsainville jail and that 10,000 CEGEP students (or at least student unions representing 10,000 students) in Montreal have gone on strike until those in jail are released.

Below is the last update provided by the legal team (Monday Morning) which has information on the solidarity demands of those in prison and contact information for the legal team.

April 23, 2001

Activists jailed during the FTAA protests in Quebec City are using various tactics to be in solidarity. Confirmed arrests now total 250, however, actual numbers may be close to 450. 30 of these activists are refusing to give their names to authorities recognized by the state, and two women have been on hunger strike since Saturday (4/21/2001). Their demands are as follows:

That they meet with lawyers.
That they meet as a group.
That their charges are the same.
That they be released together.

Information on the condition of the activists has been limited, as lawyers
working with the Quebec Legal Collective have only just gained entry to the jail. However, two women activists have released
statements:

"We are all here being detained illegally, and we have done nothing wrong.

I am not cooperating with the police, and I am on hunger strike with one other person until we are all allowed to meet with our
lawyers, and allowed to meet as a group, so we can make sure that everyone is all right."

-- Activist who refuses to accept food

"I am in solidarity with all people here, and we all came in solidarity to protest the Summit. We are all fundamentally opposed to the FTAA and we have all been arrested for this reason."

-- Activist who refuses to give her name

Some activists have been released from jail, but are reporting intimidation tactics used by police: for example, some report being held handcuffed on buses for long hours, subjected to strip searches, and denied phone calls. At least some of those arrested are being held at Orsainville Jail, 20 miles
North of Quebec City.

There is a 24-hour solidarity vigil outside the Orsainville Jail, which,
according to reports by released activists, is visible from within the cell blocks. Quebec Legal calls on everyone to take action in solidarity with these jailed activists:

Vigil: Support is needed outside the jail, activists need food, warmth, clothing, transportation and emotional support. From Laval University, take Autoroute de Vallon North to Highway 40. Take 40-East to Highway 73-North, and then exit onto Rue de la Faune. Go to: 500 Rue de la Faune.

Donate: Financial support is needed to deal with legal costs.

Contact: Call the Orsainville Jail directly to let them know that you are watching: (418) 646-0570 x232.

Office: Support is needed ongoing at the legal office, especially from those who speak any combination of French, Spanish or English.

There will be a press conference by Quebec Legal at 1:00pm, Monday, 4/23/2001, outside the Orsainville Jail. For more information, contact the Quebec Legal Collective at (418) 622-5261, or visit quebeclegal.org.




[This message has been edited by Templeton (edited 04-26-2001).]

nihilistic, the difference between your idea and The Real's is that a bunch of rampaging motherfuckers are far, far less likely to get shot at by lethal weapons than a group of relatively peaceful protesters if one in their midst smokes a cop on the line.

The Real, an organized group of 100 people ready for battle (but coming peacefully) is a lot different than you going to a protest and shooting a cop who nails you with a bean bag. Then, everyone's prepared for what might happen.

Where to go from there? I suppose it would depend partially on why the protest is happening in the first place.

Well what can a person do then?
You obviously read what happened to the protestors. Will the same happen to those protesting the prisoners? It appears as if they don't want people to be heard, but everyone listens to the guy holding a gun.

Whose idea was this anyway, free trade. Something so serious should be put on a ballot, not left up to politicians alone. Then to rub it in further, they meet behind closed doors! As their dogs attack those who disagree with them.

If they won't listen they why protest? If those 32 leaders really cared they'd hold a conference and ask about opinions. But no, they go to secret meetings with the attitude, of piss on you, we're doing it anyways. That my friend is not a democracy nor a democratic republic. It is entirely socialism. So from within we are being invaded by socialist forces, no one cares to hear plea's. I've written state and federal congressmen and reps. Email, typed, and even hand written letters. You know what I get back? "Thank you for voicing your concern, the person you are writing cannot personally respond to everyone's letters, but you concerns will be voiced to him. Thanks Again...." That tells me that no one even knew what the concern was, as if they read the return address and mailed a generic letter back to me.

So how do we get their attention. Especially if we only threaten that, "if you don't represent me I'm gonna show up with a sign and get shot with tear gas". Yeah that'll showem. So how do we get their attention?

Perhaps I'm overlooking a better, effective means. But all we do is bitch and the leaders do as they please. When we collectively bitch in person, well you read what happened. I say it's time for the people to run the government again, that means ridding of those in power now. We gonna do that with a ballot? The same people will run next year and those that could make a difference won't even make it to the primaries. We can't even count votes anymore for that matter. What the government allows us to do to make changes, doesn't work. If we do something that remotely disturbs them, they use excessive force to end it. If everyone at the protest brought a gun, well I doubt those 32 corrupt leaders would be around anymore, and good riddens.

I honestly believe that the New World Order does exist and it is coming in the form of economics. That is the most powerful way to keep people down. Make them poor, take away their weapons, then ignore them unless you are punishing them as you (the govt) see's fit.

So how do we change things? I honestly feel that the peaceful approach is getting no where and it's been used up. Time to drop the sign and pick up a rifle. I will promise you that everyone that does will be listened too.

I don't know that this has ever been tried, or ever could, but:

Take your idea of 100 armed protesters, ready to fight, but coming in peace. Now, what would happen if such a group were to say, we're prepared to fight back if attacked, but we will not make the first move? Make sure all those who bring weapons have their licenses, or what have you, and are in no way doing anything illegal. Do you think it would keep the cops honest, or would they use it as an excuse to destroy the protest before it even starts?

I understand your points Spiffy, I really do. But I think we are running low on options.

I'd say come prepared, and tell no one.

thats what were all trying to say,

really ,

wiether it be guns or what ever,

more pressure needs to be applyed then what is currently availible now,

and that is what i am out to do, shock people into listenig and procesing the info, people are way way to placid to understand the serverity of any thing now days,

so real and spiff, you are both right, more pressure needs to be applyed , guns, numbers, what ever,

--------------------------------
totally nihilistic