I order dried pods and brew this stuff pretty often (too often, but thats besides the point), and I always enjoy making some for a friend who wishes to try it, but I've noticed something weird about it, both in myself and most others.

It seems like when my body has little or none of the active chemicals, I don't get much of a "high" the first time drinking it. Occasionally I'll take 3 or 4 days off to detox a little and remind myself not to get in too deep, and the first cup back releives withdrawl feelings, but I barely get any of the euphoric buzz. The next day I'll have most of my buzz back, and the day after that it's completely restored.

Looking back, I beleive this happened when I first started drinking it as well. It probably took atleast 4 consumptions, all occuring within a two-week period, before the buzz really started hitting me.

This seems completely backward and I almost feel stupid posting it, but I'm absolutely confident that it's not some big stupid placebo that I've fallen for. A few weeks ago I took 3 days off which got me to the point of pretty bad leg cramps, moderate insomnia and the crawling skin feeling, and the day I came back I brewed a cup with 6 grams, which usually is enough to give me an awesome and solid buzz for 3+ hours with good pain releif (I have some back soreness from an injury). That time I got most of the expected pain releif, but only a light subtle buzz. The next night I brewed 4 grams and had twice the buzz.

^Nearly that exact scenario has happened 2 or 3 times, so it can't be a mistake, and other people have had the issue too. They'll be interested in trying the stuff, so I brew em a cup, and more than half of them say "It just feels like a mild pot high", and then they throw up the next morning. I'm pretty sure if they drank another cup that night they'd get the buzz I hoped to let them experience, but most people don't wanna try it again.
A few of em say the first time they had it they got an amazing buzz that hit em like a ton of bricks and have even gone and ordered a bag of dried pods themselves.



Can anyone explain this to me, and maybe even suggest how to avoid it? There's a few people who were really interested when I told em about it, but I want to be sure its gonna work before making them gag down the rather unpalletable brew. Is there some way I can sorta "prime" their system for it? Maybe taking a gel cap of the dried powder the day before?



I think its the most bewildering to me because it's changed what chasing the dragon means for me; I didn't catch the dragon the first time I did it... I caught him the 4th time, with relative ease, and have done so like 20 more times on various occasions since then. I buy a pound of dried pods for $63 after shipping, which comes to about 250g of useful material... I need about 8g to full blown catch the dragon for 4+ hours, and that's a hell of a deal IMHO.

thanks for any help,
-Jon

wait youre w/d from opium tea??

I haven't the foggiest idea as to the weird effects you're feeling. My best guess is that there is more active compound in the 4 grams the next day than in the 8 grams the night before. One f the bitches about plant material is that the goods are unevenly distributed. If it were me, I would make large batches of tea (20grams) then dose accordingly. Then I would know that it's my brain, not the pods. Also:
http://www.john-libbey-eurotext.fr/en/revues/bio_rech/mrh/e-docs/00/04/3B/7E/article.md

and

http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstract.php?pmid=8137155&redirect=yes&terms=NMDA+Opiate+tolerance+inhibition+antagonist

Magnesium is the body's natural NMDA antagonist. The top article is a tad uncredited and erroneous, but the bottom article is widely accredited. Theoretically DXM would work as well, but it's more expensive, and frankly, I have more faith in magnesium. In the past few weeks there have been tons of threads on "OMGZ, I'D IN W/D FROM OPIATES" And it's all for nothing. I make no claims, guarantees, or endorsements, but the studies done are pretty conclusive. I recently did a paper on the subject and there are MANY documented cases of tolerance inhibition.

As for a pseudoscience explanation, opiates cause a bunch of firings in sensitive parts of the brain. These firings are not related to the recreationality of opiates, but a by product of it. The sensitive parts of the brain are not meant for that level of firing, so they begin to desensitize and shut down receptor cites. They can be inhibited by NMDA antagonists.

thanks for the info hydroponichronic, i'll read into those more closely.

yes 556... nothing compared to pharms and stuff, but they are definately there. when I take time off from drinking it I'm fine for the first 24 hours or so, then I start having moderate skelatal soreness in places where the drug is actually killing pain, and nonstop CRAZY (not even really bad) dreams about questing for opiates the first night. then I have leg cramps at night and my skin crawls moderately during the day, peaking at day 3, then it all tapers for another 2 or 3 days.
Again not trying to lay claim to have experienced wat heroin users and stuff do... no puking or violent sweats/nightmares etc, but you definately can tell somethings missing.

post

NMDA antagonism has pretty interesting implications, but I haven't seen any studies on the dose of magnesium/ketamine/etc. required for tolerance prevention.

JoePedo says to take something like 500mg magnesium with his combo, but does anyone actually have data on what mg magnesium sufficiently prevents tolerance to Xmg of an opioid?

Another thing with all this NMDA-antagonist advocacy is the Olney's Lesions problem. Not exactly proven, but I heard that the longer you block NMDA, the worse you get the vacuoles; in other words, one hour a day may not harm you but keep pushing it and it's more risky. I don't thing I'd risk all that and take k 24/7 just so I can keep up an opioid habit.

yes 556... nothing compared to pharms and stuff, but they are definately there. when I take time off from drinking it I'm fine for the first 24 hours or so, then I start having moderate skelatal soreness in places where the drug is actually killing pain,

If it takes that long for withdrawals to set in, that suggests the morphine metabolites (and whatever else) have quite a long half-life. This would also explain why it takes a few doses to get high -- you need to accumulate a larger amount of chemicals than in one dose.

I can't be bothered to look up the half-lives of whatever metabolites; just a theory.

NMDA antagonism has pretty interesting implications, but I haven't seen any studies on the dose of magnesium/ketamine/etc. required for tolerance prevention.

JoePedo says to take something like 500mg magnesium with his combo, but does anyone actually have data on what mg magnesium sufficiently prevents tolerance to Xmg of an opioid?
Ahh... You make a good point. I like the 500mg because it is more than most people get in a week, but not enough to cause diarrhea. You probably could ingest more than 500mg without getting the runs, but you'd have to do it sub lingually, and I personally wouldn't recommend it. You are right,in that Mg is new to tolerance prevention, so dose isn't yet established, but due to the above issues, there are some limitations. So, that's why I'm going around posting about it in threads: to find out is 500mg is adequate. As for dose of other NMDA antagonists, there is some study (free on pubmed) about the adequate doses of K, PCP, and DXM necessary to block tolerances in rats. Though, they might not transfer over to humans.
Another thing with all this NMDA-antagonist advocacy is the Olney's Lesions problem. Not exactly proven, but I heard that the longer you block NMDA, the worse you get the vacuoles; in other words, one hour a day may not harm you but keep pushing it and it's more risky. I don't thing I'd risk all that and take k 24/7 just so I can keep up an opioid habit.
Interesting thought, but I doubt daily Mg will do it. While this claim is unevidenced, I believe Olney's lesions are not a result of continual antagonism, but rather of High dose antagonism. Moreover, it is yet to be seen in humans, as a result of any NMDA antagonism. But, yea, I wouldn't take k, pcp, or dxm on any regular basis. That's why I recommend Mg. This can be considered safe (as for effective, we'll see) because 500mg Mg is ~the daily recommended dose.


If it takes that long for withdrawals to set in, that suggests the morphine metabolites (and whatever else) have quite a long half-life. This would also explain why it takes a few doses to get high -- you need to accumulate a larger amount of chemicals than in one dose.

I can't be bothered to look up the half-lives of whatever metabolites; just a theory.
This, I don't buy. The morphine metabolites are inactive. It's the morphine itself that produces the analgesia.

OK the half-life notion seems feasible to me from what Ezekiel35 said. The greater elapsed time before withdrawls goes logically with needing multiple doses before getting high.

I'm still pretty foggy on the NMDA chemistry, but I'm not really planning on toying with it anyway. My tolerance stays under control fine, and I don't want to risk brain damage from messing with things I don't understand.

My main concern here is what can I do to make it so people get high the first time they drink a cup of this stuff? I have a lady friend who wants to try it, and I want it to work for her, not make her stomach churn all night and throw up in the morning.


If we can focus the thread on ^this that'd be great. What about the gelcapped powder thing I mentioned? If she took one 00 capsule of powder with each meal the day before, would the body be able to absorb the alkaloids, or would it still go straight through the GI track?
I really don't have access to much else in terms of drugs and unusual substances. If it helps any, I can get some weed, and 5-10mg of hydrocodone, and 5-10mg of oxycodone. I have a lot of 500mg chelated magnesium tablets and tylenol PM (benadryl antihistamine) too.


If you got an idea of somethin that might work, shout it out :)


thanks
-Jon

OK the half-life notion seems feasible to me from what Ezekiel35 said. The greater elapsed time before withdrawls goes logically with needing multiple doses before getting high.
This is certainly not the case, unless you have some SERIOUSLY defective enzymes. Or maybe if you had no kidneys. Like I said, the metabolites of opiates are NOT ACTIVE. IE, if they build up, they don't do anything. Morphine has a half life of 2-3 hrs, so by the next day, you're at ~.4% (not 40%, 0.4%) of the levels you had when you first drank the tea.
I'm still pretty foggy on the NMDA chemistry, but I'm not really planning on toying with it anyway. My tolerance stays under control fine, and I don't want to risk brain damage from messing with things I don't understand.
Go with the magnesium 500mg is THE DAILY RECOMMENDED DOSE. So, unless the US government wants you to have Olney's lesions, you're safe with the magnesium. Now, the concern Ezekiel raised was that 500mg might not be enough to be effective. That, you will have to determine for yourself.
My main concern here is what can I do to make it so people get high the first time they drink a cup of this stuff? I have a lady friend who wants to try it, and I want it to work for her, not make her stomach churn all night and throw up in the morning.
Like I said, if the cause is what I thought it was (that there's simply less morphine in the 8 grams than in the 4 grams) make a 40g batch, test a little yourself so you know how much morphine is in it, and then hand it out accordingly. Alternatively, if your stomach's churning all night with vomiting the next morning, it's possible the site lied, and there is some pesticides or some such in the pods. Look into this.
If we can focus the thread on ^this that'd be great. What about the gelcapped powder thing I mentioned? If she took one 00 capsule of powder with each meal the day before, would the body be able to absorb the alkaloids, or would it still go straight through the GI track?
What powder? Do you mean ground up pods or the powder that results from drying out tea? I would advise caution when drying out tea, you might just get a goop, or might burn the morphine, or boil a bunch a way with the water (despite morphine's higher boiling point, things will often boil away with water, look up steam distillation on wiki). Post details on how one might prepare such a powder.
I really don't have access to much else in terms of drugs and unusual substances. If it helps any, I can get some weed, and 5-10mg of hydrocodone, and 5-10mg of oxycodone. I have a lot of 500mg chelated magnesium tablets and tylenol PM (benadryl antihistamine) too.
Benedryl would potentiate it, but mostly make you sleepy. I'd go with alcohol. Best opiate potentiater ever.
If you got an idea of somethin that might work, shout it out :)
What do you know about acid base extractions? There's a thread about ~pure morphine from pods in Lab Tips.

thanks
-Jon
you're welcome :)

Also, everything I speak of is hypothetical. I do not advise, request or suggest any action, legal or illegal. IE, it's not my fault if you do something and it ends badly.

OP: how do you prepare you product?

Ahh... You make a good point. I like the 500mg because it is more than most people get in a week, but not enough to cause diarrhea. You probably could ingest more than 500mg without getting the runs, but you'd have to do it sub lingually, and I personally wouldn't recommend it.

My Mg pills are about an inch in length, so I have to taste a load of chalky binder crap to use 'em like that :(.

I've found that if you just want to use them orally, the best way is to take one at various times in the day so you don't get that concentrated pro-diarrhea action all at once. Not sure about the half-life of them though. Hold on:

the half-life of intravenously administered magnesium is short, with nearly all of an administered dose excreted within 4 to 8 h


As for dose of other NMDA antagonists, there is some study (free on pubmed) about the adequate doses of K, PCP, and DXM necessary to block tolerances in rats. Though, they might not transfer over to humans.

Makes me think that dissociatives would be a very good way to kick opiate or benzo addictions. Apart from being far away from physical pain, I read somewhere that they can reverse tolerance as well as prevent it.

This, I don't buy. The morphine metabolites are inactive. It's the morphine itself that produces the analgesia.

Yeah, it was just a guess and I don't know much about the contents of opium latex.

Only thing I can think of is that OP is brewing a less potent tea on his first doses somehow. If he made a batch like you said, we would know if this is the case.

I've had a similar phenomenon when I used to chew Oxys. If I was in WD and I took one I would pretty much be at baseline. If I took one the next day I would get high as shit. Took one the third day and felt pretty much normal. All the same dosages too.

Everyone's system responds differently to different substances.

Just a warning to watch whom you dose with tea, and how much...

Theres a kid in my town now that caught a murder charge and is going to court now for supplying some 17yo with tea.

edit; btw plus from what I read from users in another forum this is normal for pods, long lasting effects and such..

ok everyone..just a simple question... OP, do you live in US? if not, it answers my question. but i have no idea where someone could order dried poppy (?) plants. it is poppy, right? i would love to make some of this tea and have heard methods but i dont know myself how to make it...

My Mg pills are about an inch in length, so I have to taste a load of chalky binder crap to use 'em like that :(.
A good way to do this is to make one's own Mg powder out of milk of magnesia and citric acid. I once did so for other reasons (the citrate salt of magnesium has much better bioavailability) and it's very easy. Furthermore, magnesium citrate has virtually no taste (go figure?) making sublingual ingestion very doable.
Makes me think that dissociatives would be a very good way to kick opiate or benzo addictions. Apart from being far away from physical pain, I read somewhere that they can reverse tolerance as well as prevent it.
Unfortunately, though I have also heard that rumor that NMDA antagonists reverse tolerance, when I did a paper on the subject, not only is the phenomenon unproven, it's actually disproven by several studies. But this still shows potential in quitting stuff, for if one started dosing on NDMA antagonists when quiting, their tolerance levels would not re-increase in response to re-dosing. So, when you taper off your dosing, your body would lose addiction like you quit cold turkey, while you wouldn't feel like shit. Also, I haven't read about this working for benzo's, but it's a good thought.
Yeah, it was just a guess and I don't know much about the contents of opium latex.
It was a mathematically well founded guess, but sometimes that just isn't enough.
Only thing I can think of is that OP is brewing a less potent tea on his first doses somehow. If he made a batch like you said, we would know if this is the case.
Random distribution of active compounds in plant matter makes this very easy.
I've had a similar phenomenon when I used to chew Oxys. If I was in WD and I took one I would pretty much be at baseline. If I took one the next day I would get high as shit. Took one the third day and felt pretty much normal. All the same dosages too.

Everyone's system responds differently to different substances.
This is interesting. I would have to say that it could have been a result of tolerance drop. While the oxy taken the first day put you back at baseline, the time before and after dosing was still spent in WD and during this time, tolerance was decreasing. By the next day, you had gone through enough WD to bring your tolerance to a point where the one oxy got you high. Because you were high, your tolerance began to build again, thus, by day 3, the oxy did nothing. Plausible?
Just a warning to watch whom you dose with tea, and how much...

Theres a kid in my town now that caught a murder charge and is going to court now for supplying some 17yo with tea.
This is why we shouldn't talk about pod tea here. Because idiots will get caught, OD, or cause someone else to OD, and the media will turn on pods and get them BANNED. That ruins it for everyone. Don't be a douch. Don't tell people about pods.
edit; btw plus from what I read from users in another forum this is normal for pods, long lasting effects and such..
I'd like to read this. link?
ok everyone..just a simple question... OP, do you live in US? if not, it answers my question. but i have no idea where someone could order dried poppy (?) plants. it is poppy, right? i would love to make some of this tea and have heard methods but i dont know myself how to make it...
They're around. On some really mainstream e-commerce websites.If you do find them, keep it on the DL. They can kill you. Or someone else. Careful. For more information, read my rant here: http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2183907
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