This is probably a asinine question, but anyway...

A guy I was talking to a few weeks ago was telling me how simple it was to take codeine (which is easy and abundant to get provided you do a CWE) and make morphine and even heroin out of it. I cannot remember the recipe but it didn't require any kind of chemistry lab or obscure materials. Odds are it was bullshit but would anybody be able to tell me if there is a way to turn codeine into something more fun using simple ingredients and procedures?

Google 'codeine demethylation'.

Or even "codeine to morphine" or "heroin homebake" or "morphine synthesis" or "Please mommy, can you wipe my ass?"

But, to actually answer your question without being facetious - yes, it is possible and relatively simple.

You know, something I've always wondered, on this note, is whether the same demethylation procedures used on vanillin or eugenol (listed below) work on methoxy morphine analogues?
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/methylenation.html

As for how OTC this gets, it depends on how well these would work. Last I checked, the best other way I heard of was boron tribromide or some such. I don't believe that you can buy that at the hardware store, but it's probably worth checking. You never know. OTOH, if some of the above methods work for this, they can be totally OTC if you know some stuff.

Pyridine & Acetic Anhydride

Pyridine & Acetic Anhydride
Silly kiwis and their homebaked (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/codeine.homebake.labs.html) heroin.

-F☺rd

Silly kiwis and their homebaked (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/codeine.homebake.labs.html) heroin.

-F?rd

If I'm not mistaken, pyridine can be used to demethylate codeine easily, and morphine is almost as good as heroin.... Pyridine can easily be made in the lab via nicotinic acid (niacin), and there's a synth on here

If I'm not mistaken, pyridine can be used to demethylate codeine easily, and morphine is almost as good as heroin.... Pyridine can easily be made in the lab via nicotinic acid (niacin), and there's a synth on here

Huh, codeine...

some vitamin B3, spearmint oil...

lye, and a tad of muratic acid...


Chloroform can be made with a bit of acetone and sodium or calcium hypochlorite, no?


All sounds pretty OTC to me.

-F☺rd

some vitamin B3, spearmint oil...

You're saying spearmint oil could be used as the catalyst? Instead of the slightly harder to acquire catalyst mix that a lot of people seem to use?

You're saying spearmint oil could be used as the catalyst? Instead of the slightly harder to acquire catalyst mix that a lot of people seem to use?

Damn near any heat-stable ketone with a high enough BP; JP suggested thujone but spearmint is safer apparently.

Damn near any heat-stable ketone with a high enough BP; JP suggested thujone but spearmint is safer apparently.

That is good news; makes it pretty damn OTC :)

So MEK's out of the question? Too low BP? What if it was refluxed for a while? I ask mostly 'cause you can buy it ~pure in gallon drums.

I was under the impression that our solvent/ketone catalyst would need a boiling point of at least 200 degrees. Thujone boils at 201, and spearmint around 220 IIRC, so seemingly those'd be our best options.

Spearmint oil is pricey though, and I really can't be fucked preparing essential oils.



Edit: Just kidding, its cheap enough in bulk.

-F☺rd

tryptophan can be decarboxylated to tryptamine.... I would assume niacin could be just as easily. Spearmint oil would be ideal as far as OTC and quality goes, it seems like 175 to 200 Celsius should do. The resulting pyridine may need a distillation or two but it shouldn't be too hard, probably at atmospheric pressure

Is there any way of calculating the quantities of catalyst required? Or does anyone fancy hazarding a guess at approximate quantities required for the pyridine synthesis? 100ml for half a mole? 10ml for half a mole?

http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/tryptophan.html

This is good to know.

You people have instilled in me the value of Chemistry. Thank you.

http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/tryptophan.html

This thing says that MEK works reasonably well in high boiling solvents, it even mentions xylene (which is only 140C). Is seems that all it comes down to is whether its cheaper/easier to use a less efficient method.

Wow this is seriously doable without the acetic anhydride!!!??

That is FUCKING AMAZING!!

You don't need acetic anhydride for the conversion of codeine to morphine I believe. You do still need it to convert morphine into heroin, an entirely different step. The acetic anhydride is rather unavoidable, or another method would present considerable difficulty; it is just two acyl groups that are stuck on the OHs.

Here's a thought: would the same process of codeine --> morphine work on DXM -->DXO? IIRC, it's basically the same molecule (save for a couple of hydrogens and chirality) , and DXO would be a tad more psychedelic (more like PCP). Theoretically, one could probably fence it a ketamine without a problem. The dosage would be a tad off, but one could just say it's cut really bad.

You sound like a prick.


-F☺rd

You sound like a prick.


-F☺rd

It is kind of a douche move, but I just thought I'd through it out there. Heck, maybe don't lie and just sell it as fast acting DXM. One of the sucky parts of DXM is that it takes forever to kick in. DXO circumvents that. Also has the added benefit of being ~legal.

It is kind of a douche move, but I just thought I'd through it out there. Heck, maybe don't lie and just sell it as fast acting DXM. One of the sucky parts of DXM is that it takes forever to kick in. DXO circumvents that. Also has the added benefit of being ~legal.

Shit, put it in muticolored gellcaps and call it "designer dxm".

Just don't lie outright.



-F☺rd

Quick question on the reaction details with the demethylation in general. For demethylation, you need an H to go onto the O where the Me was. What donates the H? And where does the Me go after coming off the O? I had a similar question that was never answered regarding birch reductions. What donates the H to beta carbon? Does two NH3 become N2 and three H2? Where does the OH go? One down side of ghetto chem is that there is a terrible lack of understanding of reaction mechanisms.
Shit, put it in muticolored gellcaps and call it "designer dxm".

Just don't lie outright.



-F☺rd
Although... I know a couple of people who were extracting DXM and mixing it with nodoz in capsules and selling it as E. They made a killing selling it to n00bz. Most couldn't tell the difference anyway seeing as how most get K and meth as "E" (if you don't know the right people you get "E" not E, as happened above).

I never sold DXM as E; but given the ridiculous ease of which I could obtain DXM-only syrups back in the day; I made a killing through highschool doing decent a/b pulls and capping up 300mg for $40 a pop.

You can find bulk DXM online if you look enough.......... Anyways, a strong acid like HCl should convert the DXM to DXO. I don't know for sure, but I've read older A/B teks saying this happens..

I've read these same teks, and now that I think about it, the reaction seems plausible (MeDXO+HCl-->DXOH+MeCl), though I'm going to have to go over my organic chem stuff to see if this could be legit. If so couldn't HCl also work for codeine? In which case it would save a lot of people the trouble of niacin decarboxylation.

nah.... the strong acid would kill the ether bridge I think

Not sure about the ether bridge, but I reckon you'd run into a whole world of shit with that allylic alcohol...

I had a similar question that was never answered regarding birch reductions. What donates the H to beta carbon? Does two NH3 become N2 and three H2? Where does the OH go?

I think the wikipedia article should enlighten you, and remember that there is almost always a work-up step involved in any reaction (typically the addition of water or an aqueous soution) which can solve any unresolved issues...

nah.... the strong acid would kill the ether bridge I think
Does this mean one shouldn't do an A/B on morphine based opiates with HCl? Or is it just a concentration thing? That would be bad. If so, what would happen to the ether bridge or the allylic alcohol? I don't believe chloromorphine would be a good thing, nor would morphine with no ether bridge. Potentially poisonous byproducts, FTL.
I think the wikipedia article should enlighten you, and remember that there is almost always a work-up step involved in any reaction (typically the addition of water or an aqueous soution) which can solve any unresolved issues...
What do you mean by work-up? True, it could donate some hydrogen (which would sole a lot of problems) but I didn't think Oxygen was one to give up it's H without a fight. I've seen the wiki article, but it left a lot unanswered, mostly because it deals with reductions of aromatic rings, and draws it's H from the alcohols present, but doesn't say what happens to the alcohols afterward (sodium alkoxide?).

Does this mean one shouldn't do an A/B on morphine based opiates with HCl? Or is it just a concentration thing? That would be bad. If so, what would happen to the ether bridge or the allylic alcohol? I don't believe chloromorphine would be a good thing, nor would morphine with no ether bridge. Potentially poisonous byproducts, FTL.


I would imagine that an acid/base procedure would not be too detrimental to the compound. I was really talking about heating with strong acid (acid reflux - :D). The ether bridge may be susceptible to attack, and allylic alcohol may well rearrange to multiple products, giving a bit of a mess.

This is purely baseless speculation though - just something I might be concerned about and check out if I were working in that area.



What do you mean by work-up? True, it could donate some hydrogen (which would sole a lot of problems) but I didn't think Oxygen was one to give up it's H without a fight. I've seen the wiki article, but it left a lot unanswered, mostly because it deals with reductions of aromatic rings, and draws it's H from the alcohols present, but doesn't say what happens to the alcohols afterward (sodium alkoxide?).


A work-up step is the bit in-between doing a reaction and the isolation/purification. If you were to do a grignard addition to a ketone say, the actual product of the reaction would be the magnesium alkoxide. A common work-up step is the cautious addition of a solution of ammonium chloride, which quenches the alkoxide, generating the desired alcohol.

I've always struggled with fully understanding the Birch reduction (and radical reactions in general...) but the proton can come from ammonia itself, in the absence of additional alcohol. Hydoxyl groups, and water, are relatively acidic when it comes to quenching intermediates such as those found in the Birch. The thing to remeber abnout water too is that, while it is H2O, it can be considered as a bunch of H3O+ and OH-, it's actually pretty weird stuff and people have devoted significant efort to understanding its true structure. I dunno, but off the top of my head, i'd guess the alkoxides regenerate the corresponding alcohols when the reaction is complete - though again I have not given this much thought, and may well be wrong...

I would imagine that an acid/base procedure would not be too detrimental to the compound. I was really talking about heating with strong acid (acid reflux - :D). The ether bridge may be susceptible to attack, and allylic alcohol may well rearrange to multiple products, giving a bit of a mess.
lol @ acid reflux. Good news for extraction, though.
This is purely baseless speculation though - just something I might be concerned about and check out if I were working in that area.
I'll see what I can turn up.
A work-up step is the bit in-between doing a reaction and the isolation/purification. If you were to do a grignard addition to a ketone say, the actual product of the reaction would be the magnesium alkoxide. A common work-up step is the cautious addition of a solution of ammonium chloride, which quenches the alkoxide, generating the desired alcohol.

I've always struggled with fully understanding the Birch reduction (and radical reactions in general...) but the proton can come from ammonia itself, in the absence of additional alcohol. Hydoxyl groups, and water, are relatively acidic when it comes to quenching intermediates such as those found in the Birch. The thing to remember about water too is that, while it is H2O, it can be considered as a bunch of H3O+ and OH-, it's actually pretty weird stuff and people have devoted significant effort to understanding its true structure. I dunno, but off the top of my head, I'd guess the alkoxides regenerate the corresponding alcohols when the reaction is complete - though again I have not given this much thought, and may well be wrong...

I'm liking the ammonia as a hydrogen donor. In birch redux of pse, there's not any alkoxide formation (at least there shouldn't be). I'm still thinking about how the NH3 would be coaxed into giving up hydrogen, but right now, I'm thinking that some ionic complex forms between ammonia and Li/Na, making it slightly more willing to donate. Well, just so long as it works...