A highpower carbine rifle is more effective in any situation. A smg is much harder to procure because of it being automatic and a short barrel gun. a smg would cost about $5000-$10000. A semi auto "assault style rifle" is much cheaper coming in at atleast 1/10th the price of a machine gun of any sort and is much easier to procure. It carries much more fire power in just a little bit bigger package. Is more accurate at shorter ranges to longer ranges.
firing a pistol accurately is much better than firing a pistol inaccurately.
My CAR15 is just under 3ft at 35.5 inches with the m4 stock fully extended. with the CAR stock it would be more like 33 inches. with the stock not extended it is 32.25 inches and with the CAR stock not extended it would be about 30 inches.

And you don't stop for angry mobs dude then they never get the chance to pull you out of your car.

AK with folding stock or bullpup configuration? 16"-ish barrel and the length of the receiver is all that would be there. A bit longer than an SMG, but still pretty short and maneuverable.

Yes,...I under stand your point why you would prefer to have an assault.r...



And you don't stop for angry mobs dude then they never get the chance to pull you out of your car.



First, the epicenter of an urban riot is most likely going to start at a traffic junction....

[1] with a mob of angry [insert variable here] smashing up traffic/cars stopped in front of the traffic light....

[2] as more joined in, naturally other drivers is going to go out of their cars and in an attempt to assist the unfortunate driver...

[3] as more drivers joined in to a point it seems like the bunch of angry mobs are going to be out numbered..."people" on the street will naturally come in to support that bunch of angry mob...

[4] within 15 minutes, all traffic would came to a grinding halt if a riot were successfully ignited....and spread out from the epicenter...

so...it's not either you stopped for them or not,...it's when you're caught in it....

So, will a 16" long barrel be as accurate as a 32" barrel ? And if not, by how much it's accuracy had been taken away ??

So, will a 16" long barrel be as accurate as a 32" barrel ? And if not, by how much it's accuracy had been taken away ??

It depends on alot more than just barrel length; rifling, ammunition quality, caliber, shape of the bullet's tip, etc. Generally speaking, the shorter barrel will be less accurate and will have less velocity than a longer barrel.

So, will a 16" long barrel be as accurate as a 32" barrel ? And if not, by how much it's accuracy had been taken away ??

Actually, a shorter barrel is not inherently less accurate than a long one by itself. What kills accuracy is the shorter sighting radius coupled with loads designed for longer barreled weapons.

What everyones opinion on shotguns in a shtf situation?

It depends on alot more than just barrel length; rifling, ammunition quality, caliber, shape of the bullet's tip, etc. Generally speaking, the shorter barrel will be less accurate and will have less velocity than a longer barrel.

So, would it be correct to say that the shortest assault (16" or less/5.56/5.45) rifle would *still* be more powerful and accurate than an average smg ... correct ??

I would think that a pump-action would be pretty damn reliable. For home defense it would be unmatched.

I would think that a pump-action would be pretty damn reliable. For home defense it would be unmatched.



Agreed! There are only two weapons that are historically shown to scare the shit out of your average joe civilian. The hand gun (preferrably .45) and the shotty any gauge. It lived up to it in Iraq. You will see more people run or shit themselves when you point just an M9 or the shotgun in there direction then from even a M4 or M14 lol. Kids would look at you and laugh when you tried to act serious with it, drove us all nuts they weren't scared.

Shotgun shells are big and bulky. It's not as easy to reload a shotgun as it is a detachable magazine rifle, and rifles carry moar rounds.

Yes,...I under stand your point why you would prefer to have an assault.r...





First, the epicenter of an urban riot is most likely going to start at a traffic junction....

[1] with a mob of angry [insert variable here] smashing up traffic/cars stopped in front of the traffic light....

[2] as more joined in, naturally other drivers is going to go out of their cars and in an attempt to assist the unfortunate driver...

[3] as more drivers joined in to a point it seems like the bunch of angry mobs are going to be out numbered..."people" on the street will naturally come in to support that bunch of angry mob...

[4] within 15 minutes, all traffic would came to a grinding halt if a riot were successfully ignited....and spread out from the epicenter...

so...it's not either you stopped for them or not,...it's when you're caught in it....maybe I am very egotistic but i am not helping anyone but myself and family. i am getting the fuck out of there not trying to engage a large posse/mob
Agreed! There are only two weapons that are historically shown to scare the shit out of your average joe civilian. The hand gun (preferrably .45) and the shotty any gauge. It lived up to it in Iraq. You will see more people run or shit themselves when you point just an M9 or the shotgun in there direction then from even a M4 or M14 lol. Kids would look at you and laugh when you tried to act serious with it, drove us all nuts they weren't scared.their minds will quickly be changed about the 5.56 when they take 1-10 rounds to their center of mass.

Shotgun shells are big and bulky. It's not as easy to reload a shotgun as it is a detachable magazine rifle, and rifles carry moar rounds.

Saiga 12. Shotgun with semi-automatic Kalashnikov action featuring a detachable magazine. Although the magazines will squish the tubes if left in for too long which will result in feed problems. A shotgun would not be something I'd carry around in a SHTF situation since I wouldn't want to get close enough to where it would be most effective. Then again, I live out in the boonies.

Saiga 12. Shotgun with semi-automatic Kalashnikov action featuring a detachable magazine. Although the magazines will squish the tubes if left in for too long which will result in feed problems. A shotgun would not be something I'd carry around in a SHTF situation since I wouldn't want to get close enough to where it would be most effective. Then again, I live out in the boonies.


Still though, those magazines carry like what, 15 rounds? And They've gotta weigh 3 times as much as a loaded AR magazine.

Better off with an AR.

That I would agree to that. Taking care of making sure the shells don't get oblinged over time would be a bitch and it a major unreliability point. I would say it is more suited towards offense than defense because of that.

A shotgun would be just the thing if one were forced to deal with a mob. There is much to be said for the deterent value in the face of mob mentality. Ideally, of course, any mobs are evaded, but the world is far from perfect.
If we are talking about zombies, then the best bet is whatever can hold the most ammunition while keeping weight within practical limits.

Still though, those magazines carry like what, 15 rounds? And They've gotta weigh 3 times as much as a loaded AR magazine.

Better off with an AR.

Plus, it's an issue of availability. If an AR mag fails, I know I can find replacements. Plus, they are relatively inexpensive, so I can buy a bunch and not reload them as often.

Plus, it's an issue of availability. If an AR mag fails, I know I can find replacements. Plus, they are relatively inexpensive, so I can buy a bunch and not reload them as often.

Has anyone had issues with the aluminum mags going bad over time? Do you guys prefer steel ar15 mags?

Has anyone had issues with the aluminum mags going bad over time? Do you guys prefer steel ar15 mags?


Well the aluminum crappy army issued magazines the common cheap ones you can get online for an AR-15 are decent. I mean in our circle we hate them. Jam alot (actual army testing proved 1 out of every 4 jams were GI issued mags fault), unreliable, loud as in not built together tough or properly, spring and spacer are horrible. Supposedly they are so bad the army is getting rid of them all in the next couple years and replacing them with a higher quality magazine. *Cough* According to ArmyTimes. Don't get me wrong they are good enough for civilian use but in a combat situation I wont lie I am always double/triple checking my magazine making sure its in there correctly so it wont jam. I wasn't too confident downrange as I was with those plastic ones (forget there name) which are about 25-50% more expensive.

I can't complain its the first part of my AR I will have ready to go is tons of mags getting out the army here in a couple months. No not high quality but there free since the army loses track of everything. I do also plan on spending at least $100 to purchase 4 high quality plastic ones. Those things are sweet and have yet to have problems with them.


These puppies right here!


http://www.atstacticalgear.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=ST-5203



Of course they used to have this sweet bronze/brassy mags that looked like regular M4 mags but I can't find them anymore. They ran $30 a mag my buddy bought 4 before deployment and the durability was amazing! The follower for both of those plastic and steel ones I have seen had a great enhanced follower that never lopsided when you loaded ammo always went perfectly straight down which is great if you are unfamilar with the AR/M4 mags which the army issues lop downward in the front loading ammo which with use can cause the spring to get stuck and cause double feed/jams/etc.

hmm, I have a USGI $13 dollar mag tha tis aluminum and i have had NO issues. I also have cheap aluminum TAPCO.com ar mags that i have had NO issues with. i was wondering about long term how they hold up?

You are probably thinking of the pmags, i believe they have some sort of affiliation with magpul masada and that why ypu get the high price because all of their shit is overpriced.

Also magpul sells mag upgrade kits with the "anti- tilt" followers you are talking about it also comes with upgraded springs and floor plates. it may not come with floor plates.

No not high quality but there free since the army loses track of everything.

They do. Literally hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of servicable equipment went right out the doors of my department and straight to the local landfill. Thankfully I was able to help out Uncle Sam by recycling a couple of things. Hell, someone threw out some sort of apperatus that cost a few ten grands by itself until I told one of the scientists about it at which point he rescued it. No telling how many mercury wetted switches got there, too. I was only able to find 9 of them. Our safety officer was not pleased.

Damn wasteful government.

I would have the All Weapons, Unlimited Health and Unlimited Ammo cheats enabled.

I would turn off my deep impact perc and turn on juggernaut so I could take an extra 2 bullets and then take cover and regenerate.

Id have to say if it was a realistic thing then id grab my gun and ammo, all my army gear, as many family members as possible stop by a walmart and stock up on food, ammo and more guns/knives/camping shit stop at a Circle K and load up on gas and gas cans and more food stuff/drinks and head out into the mountains or desert.

If we are talking like zombies over run the whole fucking place and able to loot what ever you want of course first stop would be nearest gun store and load my car until that bitch is bottomed out. Then family then desert/mountains for long stay until things calm down.

I have thought about this. EVERYONE AND THE MOTHER is going to think to go to a walmart or other store to stock up. So in my opinion that would not be a viable option unless you were absolutely desperate. It would be better to just be prepared.

Yea but does everyone and their mother already have guns? Im assuming looting is a lot easier if you already have a gun, because when someone tries to fight you over some food sucks for the guy not having the gun. Thats why id probably stock up at the Circle K to, because yea you're right im sure a lot of people would be trying to stock up.

This brings up another good point, if there's a panic situation there's probably going to be a LOT of roads blocked due to accidents so travel might be limited unless you live on outskirts. I mean everyone knows when people panic they are stupid and people run enough red lights as is without being in a state of extreme fear for their life so id imagine that eventually its going to be on foot for most of the inner city travel during chaos.

This brings up another good point, if there's a panic situation there's probably going to be a LOT of roads blocked due to accidents so travel might be limited unless you live on outskirts. I mean everyone knows when people panic they are stupid and people run enough red lights as is without being in a state of extreme fear for their life so id imagine that eventually its going to be on foot for most of the inner city travel during chaos.

Too true.

This brings up another good point, if there's a panic situation there's probably going to be a LOT of roads blocked due to accidents so travel might be limited unless you live on outskirts. I mean everyone knows when people panic they are stupid and people run enough red lights as is without being in a state of extreme fear for their life so id imagine that eventually its going to be on foot for most of the inner city travel during chaos.
Which is why I'm getting heavy into the Bad Ideas "night ops" type of thing. Being able to sneak around undetected is a superbly valuable skill.

Yea but nightops tactics won't help at all if the Nazi Zombies start attacking everyone knows that Zombie attacks ALWAYS start during the day, haven't you watched zombie movies it always starts during the daytime.

Ohh hell yea. Traffic is going to be in permanent gridlock. People are going to flip the fuck out and just leave their cars either joining in or getting trampled by rioting. Well, most likely not in small cities with wide roads and few people. Besides, all the hillbillies here would just ram through or get a bulldozer and clear a path.

The thing I am curious about is how powerful will law enforcement agencies be? Surely if it gets to a SHTF condition martial law is going to be declared and the police forces are going to bring out the heavy guns and tactics. How long could you pick off people looting from a store from across the street without someone trying to shoot back, even the cops?

Katrina is something that may be what we will see, but most of the roads were inaccessible because of the water. However, there were SWAT teams and the sheriff disarming everyone. That's going to be a BITCH for you guys in the cities. Thankfully I live in an area where most of the people will most assuredly shoot back if they saw a bunch of black vans roll up, so they would probably not try much at all. (Roadblocks would not work at all because they are sitting ducks.)

Which thanks for bringing up yet another good point. This whole shit hits the fan thing, what is everyone going to do about law enforcment? Becuase obviously the cops/national guard might be trying to keep shit in order. If you have to are you going to be able to shoot them or just give up and go with the flow?

Which thats a big thing for me because if martial law declared and shit hits the fan they probably would call me up for national guard drill so if I go with what im supposed to do which would be report in then kind of leaves all my other plans and what I would do up to the National Guard.

Which is why I'm getting heavy into the Bad Ideas "night ops" type of thing. Being able to sneak around undetected is a superbly valuable skill.

I would work uncer the cover of night also. As far as driving I think I would do most of the stuff on foot. There are stores within walking distance and also a grocery store distribution center ;) around here.

I already know that I can deal with most situations if I am at my house when said situation happens, as that is where all my stuff I can't conceal is.

I have to admit though that I am very lacking in my "on the road" gear and I have been looking over a few things.

My closest thing to a concealable weapon that is more "serious" than your average pistol is (and you might laugh) my Calico M950.

It can be concealed somewhat easily concealed with the sling attached and the gun slung under my left arm (right handed shooter) and it can be bought up quickly with forward tension on the sling to make up for the lack of a stock and I can have a pretty formidable weapon for point blank to about 50 yards.

Now I know it's not difficult to get 50 yard hits with a standard 9x19 handgun but most standard handguns don't hold 51 rounds, have a 7" barrel, and have no recoil.


Now, I'm not saying I carry my Calico on a daily (or even monthly) basis, I'm just saying it can be used as something like the "poor man's MP5K" only it holds more and ejects spent casings straight down (I feel that it a plus) and is, obviously and sadly, not select fire.

Another gun that has all the concealability of a stockless SMG, all the power of a full sized rifle, and is not regulated under the NFA is the Keltec SU-16C.

With a 20 round USGI magazine attached this rifle could probably (probably, as I don't own one) can be concealed under a jacket quite easily.

The rifle is also extremely flat as the stock is an underfolder and the rifle is 25.5" folded and, because it has a 16" barrel, it gets 5.56mm ammo to it's full potential.

As far as I know the SU-16C is the only 5.56mm rifle Keltec sells that can be fired with the stock folded.

Obviously the PLR-16 is an option too as it is much shorter and lighter than the SU-16C, but it's effectiveness is limited by its lack of a stock and pistol length barrel.

Though Keltec sells and adaptor for the SU-16 series that allows it to accept most AR15/M4 stocks.

Coincidently this adaptor also fits the PLR-16 pistol without any modification, so a PLR-16 with the adaptor and a folding AR15 stock is the smallest 5.56mm shoulder fired weapon that I am aware of.

Now, I know this kind of sounded like a Keltec SU-16 ad but it's not.

It's just that Keltec is the only company I know of that makes such weapons.

Though there may be issues with Keltec's longer term durability.

And another note, this whole post goes along with my whole "low profile" SHTF idea and is in no way saying that any of the above listed weapons is the best for full fledged combat or anything like that, I was just sharing ideas.

I'll put it this way- I doubt I'll have any real problems from LE, but it is possible.

Depends on the situation really. I highly doubt I will have any problems with the Law but if the time comes, well lets just say I'm not afraid of the LE or *lol* them Nasty Girls. I know how well they shoot. The goal wouldn't be to get into some shit with they guys that might be helping/saving your ass in the first place. But as far as fear of them goes I am not, simple. I think I'll have more problems from the ghetto hoodlums then anybody else.

The thing I am curious about is how powerful will law enforcement agencies be? Surely if it gets to a SHTF condition martial law is going to be declared and the police forces are going to bring out the heavy guns and tactics. How long could you pick off people looting from a store from across the street without someone trying to shoot back, even the cops?
The best person to be friends with is gonna be your local police chief. He wields a fairly strong bit of power, knows damned near everything about the area, etc. There was actually an article about this is in a survivalist magazine some time ago.

I thought the su 16 can not be used with the stock folded?

The A and CA models can't be, but the other ones can.

The A and CA models can't be, but the other ones can.

You will have the least chances of survival, living in a big city with Nerfed up guns...

You will have the least chances of survival, living in a big city with Nerfed up guns...

I just got an image of me stalking antelope through a ruined city with a pump action nerf gun.

Mega lulz.

http://blog.wired.com/geekdad/images/2008/07/25/nerfvulcan.jpg

Don't you slam the Nerf gun. Their serious. (http://www.kptm.com/Global/story.asp?S=7908660)

First things first would be food, water, and shelter. Not much good having only an arsenal because 1) It wouldn't be smart trading it for other items and 2) Going Rambo is a quick way to die. You'd ideally want something in a common calibre to your area. 12 gauge and .30-30 are pretty much universal so you'd want something in that. Or if you're near a military base or police station maybe an AR15. In civil unrest / natural disaster you pretty much want to bunker down and wait out the week or so it takes for the National Guard, or whoever, to reestablish law and order. A scanner, some walkie talkies would be good to keep an ear out for whats going on out there.

A scanner, some walkie talkies would be good to keep an ear out for whats going on out there.


Actually never really thought of that *looks at blackberry* won't do me much good in a EOTW scenario. I should invest in some Motorola's. Police Scanners are something I think beyond my learning curve.