Meat, Vegetables, or Both?

[Dalaran]

I recently had an interesting conversation with someone on the issue of why they were vegetarian. The argument boiled down to this:

She is not vegetarian because: 1.) She does not believe in causing suffering to sentient life; 2.) She believes that by eating meat, we are causing suffering to sentient life (namely, the animal which we kill to eat); and therefore she does not eat meat.

Of course, our discussion went more in depth and we looked at why we think some of the premises her argument might hold or not hold true. I will save you the details (though provide them upon your request).

What I am interested is two things: first, whether you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous (or possibly are solely carnivorous); second, why you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous; and third, particularly to those who eat meat, on what grounds would you justify causing "suffering to sentient life," when there are alternatives)? Or if you do not believe that eating meat causes "suffering to sentient life" please provide a response as to why you do not believe this premise, or other problems you have with assumptions made in her argument.

Your responses appreciated!

Vegetables are for peasants and the ignorant.

[None Other]

What I want to know is what do moral vegetarians feed their carnivores pets. If they see it reprehensible to choose to eat animals then what does it say if they force their pets to eat animals, despite the fact it is what they need to eat... So tell me, what do they do?

[earthbound01]

Originally Posted by None Other

What I want to know is what do moral vegetarians feed their carnivores pets. If they see it reprehensible to choose to eat animals then what does it say if they force their pets to eat animals, despite the fact it is what they need to eat... So tell me, what do they do?

Many don't believe in pets and many don't keep pets that are strictly carnivorous. They justify the killing of animals by other animals as the "wild" and don't have to contribute to any suffering for animals. You can usually find many holes in their thinking if you dig deep enough.

I am a omnivore because animals are too delicious for me to care whether they suffer or not.
*bites into some well-cooked baby cow*

I've got no problem with killing animals for food as it's natural; however rearing animals in an enclosure of any kind (be it field or battery cage) is not natural. The two main reasons I went vegetarian (or vegetablist as my flatmate says ) are concerns over quality of life for the animal and macro-ecological concerns. The first one because I'm a tool when it comes to animals; I can watch a video of Russian conscripts being beheaded without flinching, but the idea of an animal suffering shits me up inside. The second because my old biology teacher scared the shart out of me talking about populations / starvation / future food prices/ land area needed to produce certain foods / trophic levels etc.

I have no grudge against or feeling of moral-superiority over people who eat meat whatsoever; BUT "vegetarians" who eat fish or white meat irritate me more than a chuff-itch. Surely if you're concerned about distress and ecological damage then fish and chicken are the worst things to be eating? I've yet to see a beef cow raised in a battery cage, or a dolphin get caught in pig netting.

I'm a vegetarian because I believe that the world is much more sustainable on a meatless diet, in terms of food production and the environment. For ethical and moral reasons, I don't support the meat industry or the way animals are reared and treated in farms and in slaughterhouses. Even buying organic meat doesn't guarantee that your meat wasn't treated like a piece of crap. Plus, the feed that a lot of animals eat while being raised is full of chemical additives and livestock are pumped full of hormones and chemicals to make them stronger, fatter, "healthier", etc. Yet not many people really know what these chemicals do. Look into Monsanto Corporation and the rBGH milk scandal. Even if these animals are not fed genetically enhanced/chemically modified products, sometimes they are forced to eat other types of meat. Like cows eating cows. Or pigs eating pigs. I don't think that's justifiable. Also because a vegetarian lifestyle is usually healthier than someone who eats meat, specifically red meat, which is very high in animal fat. So, three big reasons, in the order they matter most to me:

1. Sustainability/Environmental issues
2. Morality/Ethics
3. Health & Well-being

And that's why I'm a vegetarian.

[KikoSanchez]

Originally Posted by My Name is The Lord

Vegetables are for peasants and the ignorant.

No way, meat is soo for the peasantry, them and their damn mutton pies!!

[KikoSanchez]

Originally Posted by Lewcifer

I've got no problem with killing animals for food as it's natural

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

[KikoSanchez]

As for me, I'm a vegetarian purely on ethical reasons. I was a vegan for a long time, but I now eat some cheese. Imo, vegetarianism/veganism and even environmentalism are purely less-harm solutions. They are far from least-harm, but they are a step in the right direction, without completely withdrawing from modern society.

[Dalaran]

Supposing, and veggie eaters, I know this is a *BIG* supposing:

There is a way to raise meat in environmentally appropriate ways AND that eating good quality meat of this caliber actually has health benefits.

Is there a way to raise animals in such a way that is respectful (think "free range" etc.) and eat them as well? Or do you think this is a contradiction of terms?

I do not feel strong moral obligations to creatures of the animal kingdom and I have difficulty (some days) understanding why vegetarians and other animal rights activists have such strong compassion for animals. Anyone care to share?

Originally Posted by Dalaran

Supposing, and veggie eaters, I know this is a *BIG* supposing:

There is a way to raise meat in environmentally appropriate ways AND that eating good quality meat of this caliber actually has health benefits.

Is there a way to raise animals in such a way that is respectful (think "free range" etc.) and eat them as well? Or do you think this is a contradiction of terms?

Yes, there is, and that's by buying your own livestock and raising it yourself, or knowing the farmer that you buy your livestock from. However, this is not very practical, and that's the problem. Because of a massive push to productivity, animals MUST be treated like products rather than living beings in order to get them in and out of the whole business as soon as possible.

In a perfect world, where I was sure that meat was raised ethically and responsibly and where it was much healthier for you, then I would eat meat. Until then, I'm sticking to my veggies.

Originally Posted by Dalaran

I recently had an interesting conversation with someone on the issue of why they were vegetarian. The argument boiled down to this:

She is not vegetarian because: 1.) She does not believe in causing suffering to sentient life; 2.) She believes that by eating meat, we are causing suffering to sentient life (namely, the animal which we kill to eat); and therefore she does not eat meat.

Of course, our discussion went more in depth and we looked at why we think some of the premises her argument might hold or not hold true. I will save you the details (though provide them upon your request).

What I am interested is two things: first, whether you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous (or possibly are solely carnivorous); second, why you are vegetarian, vegan, or omnivorous; and third, particularly to those who eat meat, on what grounds would you justify causing "suffering to sentient life," when there are alternatives)? Or if you do not believe that eating meat causes "suffering to sentient life" please provide a response as to why you do not believe this premise, or other problems you have with assumptions made in her argument.

Your responses appreciated!

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Well, I'm a vegan and (a few of) my reasons:

Of course, I don't want to be responsible for harming sentient life as already said ..

And I also don't really like the idea of eating a dead animal or it's secretions, just seems 'wrong' to me ..

Environmentally, meat is hugely destructive, takes about 54 kilos of feed to get 1 kilo of beef and huge amounts of water etc etc ..

And I can live perfectly well without it and still be healthy; I guess if I was in the situation where I truly couldn't survive without it I would eat meat; but I'm not going to willingly put myself in such a situation if I can help it .. But preservation of myself is my biggest priority, if it's either me or an animal dying then it'd be the animal, just the same if it was another human ..

And I also think that the food industry is hugely disconnected from the source, just walking up to a supermarket shelf and getting a bit of meat is just so separate to hunting a wild animal and eating the meat from it yourself it's a totally different thing.. I mean if you asked the average person where on the animal a piece of meat comes from they'd not be able to tell you ..

And why I'm vegan instead of vegetarian; animals will be harmed in some way and severely restricted in their freedom whatever method you use to raise them, and it's extremely difficult to tell how they have been just from a phrase on a packet, and on a more basic level I don't want to be putting my money towards an industry that will invariably kill the same animals in the end ..

What I find funny though is people saying 'are you allowed to eat this', as if I have some huge internal conflict that makes me not eat meat even though I really want it deep inside; but really I just don't want to at all in the first place ..


Just a couple thoughts ..

Originally Posted by madmentos

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Sure, I would...
..if I could. It's not easy to butcher yourself when you've just died humanely - just like the animals that provide meat do. The closest comparison you could make between eating meat from a cage raised animal is eating meat from a fit & healthly disease free prisoner electrocuted on death row. It's the same thing. Nothing else can really be drawn comparison to, especially not what you described. Death row execution subjects suffer more though.

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.

Originally Posted by Cowboy of the Apocalypse

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.

A very large proportion (think it was >90%) of the soybeans grown in the amazon formerly rainforest are imported to europe and america where they are fed to chickens to raise them..

A couple facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environ...eat_production
According to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain.

I forgot to add that I am a prime producer, and am not denying livestock don't take a lot of resources to raise. I agree with your link and the consideration of the subject amtter within it is one of the reasons I added Soya.

The reason I made the point to highlight rice, cotton, and soya was to bring it to the attention of those unaware had bad these crops are. The whole way industrialised (being industrialised is a good thing, but has drawbacks) countries have managed their food by making it en masse in other places is pretty much a disaster.

I also just wuld like to make a point that, As for textiles, if that's not going too far off subject, Hemp is something I truly believe in, as a very versatile crop. Best (legal) crop there is, pity it's restricted. I'm undecided on GM foods, my stance is slightly against them for now. You can't walk with a leg on either side of a barbed wire fence.

I absolutely abhor supermarket chains. Farmers markets and alternate means for the win!

Meat production definitely needs to be minimised, but it can't come anywhere near being abolished. That would be the end of the world, pretty much.


I couldn't care less if the pork industry was abolished. It's a lost industry - Muslims and jews don't eat pork, and while I'm neither that's a pretty large sector of the world market already gone. They're kept in battery pens, too, if that's something that concerns people. But that's not my reasoning...

..While I grant those arguing against me that a fair bit of what pigs eat is waste, I think you should consider that a fair bit of what they produce is waste also (and the rest isn't exactly health food). Compared to other animals, only a small portion of their carcass is butchered for either bacon, ham, or chops (I include ribs in here to make things easy) - pork is done in such a way that none of these products even come from the same pig.

Pigs are raised for one chosen whole product, so there is even more waste involved than you think.
The rest (waste, and varying grades of offal) goes into salamis, hotdogs, and pies, which are all processed foods these days (besides pet food), and processed foods as a whole need to dissapear. Without processed foods there's even less reason for the pork industry.

If it were specialised and not mass produced, then we wouldn't have such a problem. Small businesses and speciality butchers use most of the carcass with much less waste. Even the way their extent and use of offal is much more acceptable. If pork is made a small time thing, or abolished alotogether, it'd be the end of standalone piggerys.

Originally Posted by Cowboy of the Apocalypse

Hemp is something I truly believe in, as a very versatile crop. Best (legal) crop there is, pity it's restricted.

Very true ..
Grows well in marginal areas, kills off weeds, puts nutrients into the soil ..
And has many uses, from as a drug, as food, as fuel, as fiber etc etc ..
Great plant

Originally Posted by madmentos

Unless you are willing to get a hatchet and cut off a finger(from your self) Remove the skin/bone and connective tissue. Cook this, and eat it prepared on a dish with veg.

Then you are not worthy to cut off another animals, limb and do the same, let alone kill the creature.

Its survival of the fittest. We as humans are the strongest species on the planet and that is why we lord ourselves over the lesser creatures.

[lostmyface]

i used to be a vegan. for about 3 years actually. i did it for environmental reasons. the meat industry is a very inefficient use of our natural resources. i can understand people doing it for ethical reasons though. not only is the industry horribly inefficient, but it is also unnecessarily cruel.

that being said, now i am once more an omnivore. it is a healthier life style nutritionally speaking i think. also i love bacon far to much an that soy stuff just could not fill my cravings.

i'm a total-vegetarian. I eat a vegan diet, but don't take my animal rights views too far. I've been an off and on vegetarian for years, originally the beginning of my junior year of high school. Of which, i adopted the diet because i thought it better to slim down and gain stamina for boxing, also to ease stomach cramps and digestion. I embraced it originally but after a period of several months i began to eat meat about once or once every other month. I ate a pesce/pollo -tarian diet. It wasn't until the second semester of junior college that i began to look into my vegetarianism and embrace it more. I ate some meat on Christmas, '07 and some sausages with ricotta in April '08. I went totally vegan during the following summer. I ate some turkey on Thanksgiving (i've been doing that every single year since i've been a vegetarian), but excluding that i've been entirely vegetarian. I eat a vegan diet about 80% of the time, the only time i ever consume meat is on Thanksgiving and I never have milk, with the exception of the rare yogurt.

Real men eat spinach, just look at popeye.

Originally Posted by Cowboy of the Apocalypse

Sure, I would...
..if I could. It's not easy to butcher yourself when you've just died humanely - just like the animals that provide meat do. The closest comparison you could make between eating meat from a cage raised animal is eating meat from a fit & healthly disease free prisoner electrocuted on death row. It's the same thing. Nothing else can really be drawn comparison to, especially not what you described. Death row execution subjects suffer more though.

By the way, rice cotton and soybeans are all extremely destructive ot the environment, more so than any other produce industry I can think of right now.

It is exactly the same, and i dont want to eat kentucky fried bob...

Originally Posted by madmentos

and i dont want to eat kentucky fried bob...

lmao

Originally Posted by madmentos

It is exactly the same, and i dont want to eat kentucky fried bob...

What is exactly the same? If you mean that the comparisons you drew through you analogy, then you're off the mark by a long shot. Your analogy was terrible. Did you notice I have said anal not once but three times now? .

[WritingANovel]

Originally Posted by KikoSanchez

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

Magnificent.

[WritingANovel]

Originally Posted by Nagasaki911

Its survival of the fittest. We as humans are the strongest species on the planet and that is why we lord ourselves over the lesser creatures.

Hey chink.

If some white guy who's taller and stronger than you are (which might very well be the case), does that make it ok for him to lord it over you and kill you?

Provided you arent a masochist, which you might very well be, given that you are a fucking chink.

[WritingANovel]

I believe that meat-eating in today's world is unethical, because animals/livestock are often raised in bad conditions and killed inhumanely.

If it were possible to raise animals and kill them humanely I wouldn't have a problem with it (I think it's morally wrong to cause suffering to sentient beings however I don't see anything wrong with killing them. Don't ask me why).

That being said I am not a vegetarian and I do eat meat, and when I think about this it makes me both feel bad and makes me realise that I am a hypocrite. That being said I really can't stop because meat truly tastes really good and I am only human.

Not trying to find an excuse for what I do.

Originally Posted by KikoSanchez

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

You pernickety pillock!

What I meant to say was that the killing of animals in itself raises no moral objections in my mind, however the maltreatment of animals does, and it is the prevalence of maltreatment in the food industry which has lead me to be a vegetarian.

[KikoSanchez]

Originally Posted by Nagasaki911

Its survival of the fittest. We as humans are the strongest species on the planet and that is why we lord ourselves over the lesser creatures.

This is related to the is-ought problem. Just because we ARE the strongest (read: most intelligent/powerful) doesn't mean we OUGHT to abuse that power or use it in a cavalier manner. Using this in a reducto ad absurdum, this argument would conclude that the US (or China in the near future) ought to dominate the rest of the world at its will or if aliens came to earth, they ought be able to abuse/use us for whatever they want. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

This has descended to a flamefest.















Anyways, let's get back to talking about vegetarianism, and not the colour of our perpendicular sperm deployers.

***

I would like both of you to answer the following questions, without taking any personal shots:

1) Is it okay to kill plants to eat them? Why?
2) Is it okay to domesticate animals to eat what they produce? Why?
3) Is it okay to kill animals to eat them? Why?
40 Is it ALWAYS okay to kill animals to eat them (regardless of the condition in which they are raised)? Why?

That should point us back on course.

Originally Posted by Sentinel

I would like both of you to answer the following questions, without taking any personal shots:

1) Is it okay to kill plants to eat them? Why?
2) Is it okay to domesticate animals to eat what they produce? Why?
3) Is it okay to kill animals to eat them? Why?
40 Is it ALWAYS okay to kill animals to eat them (regardless of the condition in which they are raised)? Why?

That should point us back on course.

1. Yes. They're there and plenty of other things eat them.

2. Yes. We're humans, they aren't. It's good to be able to do things other than walk around looking for an animal to kill so you can have something for dinner.

3. Yes. They taste good and are generally good for you.

4. Depends, do you really care about the animal? Is there a viable alternative that'll deliver the same product at a similar price and more humanely?

[WritingANovel]

Originally Posted by Spiphel Rike

Is there a viable alternative that'll deliver the same product at a similar price and more humanely?

I know in the west, a lot of places stun the animals before killing them. I mean I applaud them for their humanitarian efforts, however what I don't get is, wouldn't it be easier to just get a really sharp blade, then cut the animal's head clean off? This would save them the trouble of having to stun the animal first, not to mention it would also accomplish the actual killing ....

Originally Posted by WritingANovel

I know in the west, a lot of places stun the animals before killing them. I mean I applaud them for their humanitarian efforts, however what I don't get is, wouldn't it be easier to just get a really sharp blade, then cut the animal's head clean off? This would save them the trouble of having to stun the animal first, not to mention it would also accomplish the actual killing ....

Maybe because the way it's done now is easier? Or maybe because getting an animal to stand still in a place that smells like death could be a bit difficult.

[DerDrache]

Originally Posted by Sentinel

This has descended to a flamefest.

Yeah. That's what happens when Slave of the Beast enters a thread. He apparently has trouble with the notion that anything other than (complex) animals are living. Then again, I suppose his skewed thinking is exactly what I was trying to point out.

I would like both of you to answer the following questions, without taking any personal shots:

1) Is it okay to kill plants to eat them? Why?
2) Is it okay to domesticate animals to eat what they produce? Why?
3) Is it okay to kill animals to eat them? Why?
40 Is it ALWAYS okay to kill animals to eat them (regardless of the condition in which they are raised)? Why?

That should point us back on course.

1 through 3) Yes. All animals eat plants and/or meat, and we're no different. We need energy to survive, and while plants get their energy from the sun, we have to get our energy from plants and meat. Vegetarians who claim to respect life only extend their morality to living things that they can relate to themselves. Dogs and cats express comprehensible emotion, thus many people have a problem with killing them. Dolphins also express such obvious emotion, thus while nobody gives a fuck about a thousand tuna-fish getting killed, they will complain for hours on end about a single dolphin.

Instead of talking about "life", while excluding the vast majority of things that are living, I don't claim to have a moral problem with ending life, but rather, the excessive and needless ending of life. Now, I do tend to have more concern for animals than plant lifeforms, but not to the extent that I will whine about cute animals while not giving two shits about plants or simpler animals.

4) As long as the animals are raised in a healthy, non-abusive man-made environment, I don't have a problem.

[Slave of the Beast]

Originally Posted by Slave of the Beast

I've made absolutely no statement to the affect that 'organisms without CNS's aren't truly alive', so stop talking shit.

Originally Posted by DerDrache

Yeah. That's what happens when Slave of the Beast enters a thread. He apparently has trouble with the notion that anything other than (complex) animals are living. Then again, I suppose his skewed thinking is exactly what I was trying to point out.

I'd be more cordial if you didn't repeatedly resort to posting fictitious bullshit.

i don't eat meat because i think eating flesh is gross and primitive. and seeing girls eat nasty ass hamburgers is a complete turn off.

[Phanatic]

I eat meat to limit the killing of life forms. It makes sense when you think about it. Cows raised in grass paddocks eat nothing but grass, and transfer it to a usable form (flesh) for me. The grass grows back, and more cows eat it. Humans are unable to subside on grass for nutrition/survival.

Now, a cow worth of meat has enough calories for me to survive.....a lot longer than a patch of grass. I only have to kill one cow to eat for a long time. To subsist on vegetable matter, which has far fewer calories, would require me to eat a variety of fruits and vegetables just to gain adequate nutrition. That's several organisms that won't see the light of day again, just for my dinner.

Make the guiltless choice and switch to a carnivorous diet.