This isn't entire sex related, but it's a bit too much philosophical thinking for the SG crowd to handle.

Why are people so concerned with telling the truth all the time?

I lie on a regular basis, a couple of times a day type of deal. Sometimes it's a white lie to make people feel better, other times it's a con for my benefit, but it usually works towards a greater good.

So what's the big deal about lying if you're a relatively decent and honest person?

Maybe it's just my rationalization, but lying isn't nearly as morally reprehensible as being a bad person. To put it in a sexual example, I could pick up a girl one way, make her feel good, and have sex with her, or pick her up, make her feel bad, and have sex with her because her lowered self-esteem would get the better of her. But that's just one example.

Wouldn't the world be such a better place if more people lied? Imagine if we went around telling each other what we wanted to hear. Those of us with finely-tuned bullshit radars would pick up on people's shit, but most of the world would go along with it living happier lives.

There's times the truth is the best course of action, but I think it's so overrated in our society that people forget that lying is one of the most noble actions. Hell, since ancient times gods have been lying to people, kings to their subjects, and people amongst themselves. Isn't it time we stopped judging people so harshly for it?

(As an aside, no, I'm not high. I was wikipedia-ing Djinns and got directed to Genies. Then I read about Genie the little girl who's dad locked her up for 13 years. Then I read about feral children, psychogenic dwarfism, J.M. Barrie, and then I got an urge to read Peter Pan so I did just that. That was about 4 hours ago and I got to thinking about morality...)

I guess it's better to be hated for the truth, than loved for your lies.

lyings not the problem, as you pointed out if everyone lied for each others benefit everyone probably would be happier. even if it was a lie for a self centered reason, say to get a woman into bed, it could still come out better for both concerned (you getting what you want and you lying to her about how special she is, how beautiful, etc so she feels good about herself) The problem isn't in the lying, though, its when people find out the truth that inevitably leads to the wrong. when you find out someone lied too you about something it tears down the ability to trust a persons words and therefore makes you question everything they say. as our reality is dependant so much on the words of others this does untold harm to our view of the world. so yeah lying in the right circumstances can be beneficial but whenever its found out the consequences are always bad. i say go with the truth.

also think on this situation :
woman:do you think i looks fat?
man: no of course not (complete lie)
result: woman does nothing to counter her undersirable weight because of a belief that she doesn't need too.

as opposed to:
man: well yeah you could maybe stand to lose a kilo or too
result: constructive criticism taken on board and woman tries to lose weight to obtain the desirability that she would like
(not trying to be sexist here its just a situation that i think most could relate to)

hence i say that the truth often has a better place in the world than lies, even when they are for the good of the other person they still misrepresent reality and stop people from seeing the truth. even if the truth is hard to take lies just guarantee that nothings ever down to fix them

You make a lot of good points and I agree that the biggest problem in society with regards to lying is being caught. That's why I make an effort not to.

But telling a woman the truth about her weight, that's stupid on so many levels. I know you mean well, but give it a try and let me know how it goes.

Trust. If you lie to someone all the time sooner or later they will find out. Not many people like it when people lie to them, especially if they believed the lie. It makes them uneasy about everything you say because you could be lying. Then they decide they can't trust you and avoid you altogether.

But don't you find telling the truth all the time unnecessary?

But don't you find telling the truth all the time unnecessary?

Yeah. I almost always lie to people. I'm not saying you should always tell the truth, but if I was in a serious relationship, I'd probably do it a whole lot more. I'd rather be honest if the person means anything to me. They have a right to know what I actually think.

Honesty is the best policy. A lie might accomplish more for you, but it comes at a cost to your integrity. Anything that you can do with a lie, you can do with the truth; it might not be as easy, but it's usually worth it.

One of the reasons for telling the truth is preserving a sense of self. How can you be yourself if you aren't being honest about your thoughts, feelings, and experiences?

How can you be yourself if you aren't being honest about your thoughts, feelings, and experiences?

You can be your self through lying by more effectively pursuing what you want in life.

Integrity is a lie in itself Euda.

You can be your self through lying by more effectively pursuing what you want in life.

If 'lying' is what makes you who you are, then yes. But some people would prefer to get where ever they end up by taking the most honest path.

You make a lot of good points and I agree that the biggest problem in society with regards to lying is being caught. That's why I make an effort not to.

But telling a woman the truth about her weight, that's stupid on so many levels. I know you mean well, but give it a try and let me know how it goes.

well yeah you got a point maybe it wasn't the best example too use. what i was trying to get at was more that you can lie to make someone feel better about themselves or a situation but all that does is make sure that the situation will continue unchecked. lying to someone just to make them feel better doesn't help them. it stops them from seeing the truth and stops them from realising something needs to change. be honest and yeah it might hurt, realities a harsh bitch, but at least they can see what needs to be done instead of living in a delusion.

two points

1. I would take a loyal trustworthy and honest person i can have faith in over a fake disingenuous liar any day.

2. The blue pill or the red pill? this is the choice between truth and lies.

( i dunno if you've seen the matrix but anyone who would rather live in a matrix than a reality is a FUCKING IDIOT)

If more people lied more, the world would turn to shit. Even if everyone understood WHY people lied, it would make shit more complicated.

The example you gave is a relatively simple situation, you want sex, other woman wants sex. One night stands usually are based on who can bullshit the most and the most elegantly. Once situations get more complicated it will fuck everything up and piss off a lot of people.

And there is also the whole trust thing, if you lie about trivial things, and if you lie a lot you WILL get caught, people are going to have a hard time trusting you with bigger things.

My little brother lies, a lot, and it has completely shattered my trust in him, I now won't let him use any of my things like my comp, DVD's, music CD's(which really upsets him), I won't stand up for him (I'll usually take the other persons side because I always suspect him of lying, this also upsets him to see his own brother going against him) and many other things.

Lying complicates things and if it's a serious thing you are lying about, you will most likely get caught out in the end and people will be pissed off. Being honest allows shit to get sorted out faster and easier.

( i dunno if you've seen the matrix but anyone who would rather live in a matrix than a reality is a FUCKING IDIOT)

Not necessarily.

In fact, choosing to live in the Matrix rather than a world of shit can be the most calculating decision one may undertake.

Why do you think Cipher chose to go back? When he eats the steak, he knows that everything about it is a lie, but it still tastes just as good as a real steak. Compare that to eating bowls of snot every meal every day for the rest of your life like they did on the ship.

The only real problem with choosing the Matrix is that an agent can hijack you at any given moment which would kill your persona.

Some reject the matrix because it's not real, but what defines reality? Is reality comprised of what you see and what you feel? How does that make the Matrix any different from the real word? Who's to say our reality is not just some Matrix that we're all in right now?

Because lying hurts. No one will like you if you lie all the time... I know some people that lie constantly and its so friggen annoying you cant believe a word they say outta their mouths.

You will eventually have no friends.

(As an aside, no, I'm not high. I was wikipedia-ing Djinns and got directed to Genies. Then I read about Genie the little girl who's dad locked her up for 13 years. Then I read about feral children, psychogenic dwarfism, J.M. Barrie, and then I got an urge to read Peter Pan so I did just that. That was about 4 hours ago and I got to thinking about morality...)

I had to go read about feral children.

Lyokha, Kaluga, Central Russia (December 2007). He had been living with a pack of wolves, had typical wolflike behavior and reactions. He was unable to speak any human language. Taken to a Moscow hospital, he received some medical treatment, a shower and nailtrim and several meals before escaping from the building. He is believed to still be in the wild.[27]

what a badass

I never say anything that's true.




..Oh shit, I lied.

Some reject the matrix because it's not real, but what defines reality? Is reality comprised of what you see and what you feel? How does that make the Matrix any different from the real word? Who's to say our reality is not just some Matrix that we're all in right now?

This has been bugging me for a long time. Conversely, what if you were kidnapped as a kid and some sorcerer put you in a coma in which you'd live a long life in a whole week while he fed on you or something? It'd be pretty fucked up to know you're not in a reality.

Getting back to the point, I had meant "lying without getting caught", or maybe even "lying smartly". Different people get different lies. My parents usually get the truth, so when I do pull a lie they'll be more oblivious. Other people in my life get more of the lies, and it's usually about things that won't get me into trouble. Sure a future girlfriend might find out a lot of things, but most people can be kept in the dark for a long time.

Telling the truth, on itself, isn't such a big deal. But sometimes, the problem is rather how's the person going to take it.

Lemme rephrase using an example cited above. Your girl asks you if you think she looks fat. Now, if you do say she's fat, she might feel hurt, even if you say it with the best of intentions. She might feel it was your DUTY to tell her she wasn't fat.

This takes me to a whole different thing, that is a person blindly expecting a lie, expecting what they want to hear rather than the whole truth.

Now, i'm fine with lying, as long as it won't hurt anybody at the end of the day. Sometimes lying feels like the best thing to do, sometimes it's a very reprehensible act.

All in all, it's a thing that, while it should be used with caution, i'm positive that it must be used. Sometimes the only way is to lie, eventually you'll have to.

i used to be a pretty bad liar to friends, gf's, even my family to some extent. usually for my own gain too.

dont care how cliche'd this will sound but mdma helped me realise this isnt good, and getting older/experienced with people helped too.

when i look back i dont know how i did it, ethically it was wrong, i cheated really badly on gf's etc.

nowadays i rarely lie to get what i want although i have done it the odd time, i will and do withhold the truth more often if it is not to hurt people i dont see that as particularly bad.

OP lies must be taken into the context in which they are spoken. yours dont sound so bad.

btw i sometimes see people who remind me of what i used to be lies wise and it pretty much turns my stomach.

Just move to Russia.

Just move to Russia.

Haha, sad but true.

Some reject the matrix because it's not real, but what defines reality? Is reality comprised of what you see and what you feel? How does that make the Matrix any different from the real word? Who's to say our reality is not just some Matrix that we're all in right now?

Kay this is gonna get off topic. Im not gonna multi quote because no one reads that shit.

Are we in a matrix right now?

yes i would say we are. Humans are marginal beings who contain material potency as well as spiritual potency, hence we have the ability to choose and move between these two potency's - between the matrix and "reality" (notice i put it in quotation marks, lets make this clear that they are both realities but one is esteemed to be more worthy").

Simply put the matrix is material nature, it is not "real" - that is it is insignificant, that is what it means to not be real, to not be insignificant, reality or spiritual nature is real therefore it is significant. You can see these are both reality's we can choose between, and for sure we are not always completely devoted to them ( as the movie illustrates), we are marginal. So why is this "true reality" or spiritual reality better than a "virtual reality". Well i could blabber on, but ultimately i think it is because in the true reality we are conscious whilst in the virtual reality we are not. Being conscious is what defines human-animals from non human animals and when you break it down like that- how can a human being justify behaving animalistically (non-human animalistically); its even in the linguistics; we define ourselves as being different from other animals and other life - it is our consciousness that deviates us.

To live in the matrix is to deny your spiritual nature- your soul- to believe your are just a material animal.

See, I think people have it backwards. Material reality is the real deal, and all this spirituality stuff people come up with is the Matrix they fabricate for theirselves.

It's either all "the matrix", or none of it is, if you mean "the matrix" literally, as in there is a meta-universe that "runs" our universe.

If you take it metaphorically, then I don't completely agree. The spiritual stuff is created by a person's mind - and, as long as it has an effect on this person's mind, it's as real as it gets. If a person feels "enlightened", then he effectively is enlightened - even if it's just the result of some chemicals getting released in his brain.

See what I'm saying?

White lies are why I never ask anyone I have a personal relationship with (or anyone who could concievably want anything from me) to give their opinion on something I'm concerned with. Whether someones primary motive is to keep from offending you, protect your feelings, or serve their own interests, anything you learn by talking to them is worthless.

That's why I was interested in totse in the first place years ago; people don't pretend to care about each other, and though there is a degree of bias towards a certain way of thinking, it's a constant degree. If you want to put something out there, you can get results that you can actually use, because what you say is the only significant variable. It's a simple function that doesn't require advanced intuition into human nature and society.

I can't say so much that there are objective and direct consequences of lying, because it's universal and everyone does it, sometimes even to the point where no one even claims to be telling the truth, and everyone speaks in impressions instead of concrete statements. But what I can say is that if you want your word to be respected, you won't ask for anything else. Impartiality is impossible without indifference.

1. So what's the big deal about lying if you're a relatively decent and honest person?



2. Wouldn't the world be such a better place if more people lied?





1. Oxymoron. Lies don't equal decent and honest.

2. I think the world is in the state that it is BECAUSE so many people lie, not because they need to lie more.

you must have some fucking honest friends.. honest people lie every fucking day, it's just you generally don't know about it.

1. Oxymoron. Lies don't equal decent and honest.


Stoopid acolyte. So what you're saying is that if a person lies once, ever in their entire life, regardless of their other actions they can't be decent and honest? Because if you say that that's an oxymoron, that's all it can really be interpreted as.

Stoopid acolyte. So what you're saying is that if a person lies once, ever in their entire life, regardless of their other actions they can't be decent and honest? Because if you say that that's an oxymoron, that's all it can really be interpreted as.


I never said that and I didn't mean to imply it. A person can most definitely be decent even if they have lied in their life time.


To me, there's a difference between lying, and being a liar.


I don't think a single person in this world can honestly claim that they've never once lied about anything. Yet there are people in this world that are more than decent, you might even call some good...


That being said, lying never *helps* you to be a better person. Lying doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, but it also doesn't make you a good person.

I never said that and I didn't mean to imply it. A person can most definitely be decent even if they have lied in their life time.


To me, there's a difference between lying, and being a liar.


I don't think a single person in this world can honestly claim that they've never once lied about anything. Yet there are people in this world that are more than decent, you might even call some good...


That being said, lying never *helps* you to be a better person. Lying doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, but it also doesn't make you a good person.

Then it isn't an oxymoron. There is no contradiction implied between lying and being a decent person. Then in this post you're dealing with "good" vs "bad" people. I don't know how you judge that, or even how you can say what is good and what is bad.

Lying isn't really bad as long as it's not hurting someone else in the process.

Then it isn't an oxymoron. There is no contradiction implied between lying and being a decent person. Then in this post you're dealing with "good" vs "bad" people. I don't know how you judge that, or even how you can say what is good and what is bad.

Ok. Lying isn't conducive to decency or honesty, correct?

So the two don't mix well?


Jumbo Shrimp = Oxymoron

Decent, Liar = Oxymoron (a matter of opinion of course)


What I'm saying is a matter of opinion, and what you're saying is a matter of opinion.
So why insult me? If you disagree with me, that's fine, but I'm not wrong by an objective rule.

Even so, it hurts me to be lying to someone else...

This could just be a product of my upbringing, but yeah...


Just a thought.

Don't you feel incredibly guilty when you lie? I do.


And the feeling of guilt isn't a positive feeling, I don't think...

Ok. Lying isn't conducive to decency or honesty, correct?

So the two don't mix well?


Also, what I'm saying is a matter of opinion, and what you're saying is a matter of opinion.
So why insult me? If you disagree with me, that's fine, but I'm not wrong by an objective rule.

Eh? Insults? The most insulting thing I said was "stoopid acolyte" but as far as I'm concerned that was warranted because you were in fact wrong. I'm not even really disagreeing with you, I know what you're saying, but I still don't think you can judge "good" people and "bad" people, unless you know all the facts.

For example, someone can lie about something for a perfectly good reason, but it might just look like they're lying for their own benefit to you. I find it hard to make value judgements on people, at least as far as good and bad, because I don't know everything about them, and I find that psychological determinism is a compelling argument for why people act the way they do. If you take that into account, it's very hard to blame people for their actions.

Eh? Insults? The most insulting thing I said was "stoopid acolyte" but as far as I'm concerned that was warranted because you were in fact wrong. I'm not even really disagreeing with you, I know what you're saying, but I still don't think you can judge "good" people and "bad" people, unless you know all the facts.

For example, someone can lie about something for a perfectly good reason, but it might just look like they're lying for their own benefit to you. I find it hard to make value judgements on people, at least as far as good and bad, because I don't know everything about them, and I find that psychological determinism is a compelling argument for why people act the way they do. If you take that into account, it's very hard to blame people for their actions.

In fact wrong? I don't think so.

I don't have to know all the facts to know that lying is wrong.
Lying is never "good" but, yes, in certain situations, more acceptable, and/or more understandable.


Also, thanks for not continuing with the insults. Insulting someone because of their post-count is utterly ridiculous (I know this is not what you did but you did include "acolyte" which was pointless)...I still don't think my initial reply to this thread warranted the comment you made, but that's alright. Again, a matter of opinion.


Also, if you Regulars would just try to educate the Acolytes, and be more open to them educating you, it'd be a lot more difficult than it is now for stupidity to run rampant on this site.

In fact wrong? I don't think so.

I don't have to know all the facts to know that lying is wrong.
Lying is never "good" but, yes, in certain situations, more acceptable, and/or more understandable.


Also, thanks for not continuing with the insults. Insulting someone because of their post-count is utterly ridiculous (I know this is not what you did but you did include "acolyte" which was pointless)...I still don't think my initial reply to this thread warranted the comment you made, but that's alright. Again, a matter of opinion.


Also, if you Regulars would just try to educate the Acolytes, and be more open to them educating you, it'd be a lot more difficult than it is now for stupidity to run rampant on this site.

No. You were in fact wrong. You called it an oxymoron. It isn't. That is all.

And if you think post count doesn't matter, maybe you should take a look at some of your fellow acolytes. If you can't handle being called "stoopid" then in all seriousness I suggest you maybe kill yourself now, it will save you a lot of hurt IRL.

I agree, lying is never good. Because nothing is objectively good or bad.

Rykoshet is so smart. See, I lied.

Everyone lies. Its part of the human condition. If you think you are the only one telling lies everyday then you are probably being lied to.

lying is just so unproductive, from a business and relationship standpoint. im not saying i don't lie, i do it constantly, but its usually something small or to get off the hook. but if everyone lied all the time it would be impossible to know someone.
say a guy lies to a girl to get her into bed (i.e one night stand). he says some pretty big things like im a doctor or something, "i do all this" and "i like this" because he believes its the same as the girls hobbies and favorite medias. then say after all that he realizes he has a connection with her on some other level then physical but then she knows him as the lie and depending on how she reacts to the truth hes either left with keeping up the lie or telling the truth and facing not seeing her. he gets depressed and is unable to connect with another person and decides m/s. probably not the most realistic scenario but i think it serves my point.

No. You were in fact wrong. You called it an oxymoron. It isn't. That is all.

And if you think post count doesn't matter, maybe you should take a look at some of your fellow acolytes. If you can't handle being called "stoopid" then in all seriousness I suggest you maybe kill yourself now, it will save you a lot of hurt IRL.

I agree, lying is never good. Because nothing is objectively good or bad.


Prove it. Again, it's a matter of opinion.

Ummm...ok? I'm handling it quite well. I'm not personally offended by it. It wasn't a quality insult by any means, and if it had been, I'd have been complimenting you for it. That portion of your post was superfluous, and so is the one I'm currently replying to....so I suppose this portion of my post is superfluous as well. :) Oh well.


I'm not speaking objectively, and neither are you.

Yet you tell me I'm "in fact" wrong...

Ok, the OP said: So what's the big deal about lying if you're a relatively decent and honest person?


How can someone be honest if they're lying? IT'S AN OXYMORON. Objectively.
The decency part is a matter of opinion, I admit.



Alright, that's the last I'm gonna say as far as this thread goes. This is going nowhere.

Sometimes lying is ok. Sometimes is not. One can't define when lying is ok and when it's not. In some cases, telling the truth is the lowest thing you can do. Use your judgement.

It's way easier to tell the truth, man. You have to put a lot of energy into lies.

Of course, sometimes there are times when you should just say nothing at all.

Prove it. Again, it's a matter of opinion.

How can someone be honest if they're lying? IT'S AN OXYMORON. Objectively.
The decency part is a matter of opinion, I admit.

1. So what's the big deal about lying if you're a relatively decent and honest person?

1. Oxymoron. Lies don't equal decent and honest.

This is all I was ever arguing about. You can be a decent person and be a liar. It implies no contradiction.

Ummm...ok? I'm handling it quite well. I'm not personally offended by it.
Then why'd you even bring it up? I don't understand why you had to waste my time with a discussion of why I shouldn't insult you and/or acolytes. It's easy to read posts of an opposite opinion as agressive, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

It wasn't a quality insult by any means

Why do you have to insult me?

Alright, that's the last I'm gonna say as far as this thread goes. This is going nowhere.

Agreed. I wasn't trying to start some massive debate ad nauseum.