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| Oh the Humanities! Philosophy, Cultural practices, Social norms, Historical Debate, War, and Sociology. |
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# 1
2008-10-14, 09:43
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The Art of war
I'm in the middle of reading this book, and was wondering how it's applied to life outside... well war. Winning without ever entering a fight and thinking every possibility through before you make a move are some, but how do people who've read it use it? Outside war and business, how do totseans apply this to life? Or how much do you think is useful in business/relationships rather than war? I must not be reading deeply enough into it or something :s
I'm thinking some parts must be just exclusively for war, right?
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# 2
2008-10-14, 11:03
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Re: The Art of war
use it?
i dont consider it enough by itself to be a treatise on how to interact with society or whatever. at the end of the day, its an addition to a mindset, just like any other book.
if you can cough up 11 or 12 bucks, you should invest in the 7 military classics of ancient china. im in the middle of it right now, and i have to say its pretty amazing.
the prince is another good one, as is 48 laws of power. and if you happen to find sun pins [or bin] Sun Bin Bing Fa, online and complete, id sure love a link.
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# 3
2008-10-14, 15:21
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Re: The Art of war
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilist
use it?
i dont consider it enough by itself to be a treatise on how to interact with society or whatever. at the end of the day, its an addition to a mindset, just like any other book.
if you can cough up 11 or 12 bucks, you should invest in the 7 military classics of ancient china. im in the middle of it right now, and i have to say its pretty amazing.
the prince is another good one, as is 48 laws of power. and if you happen to find sun pins [or bin] Sun Bin Bing Fa, online and complete, id sure love a link.
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Thanks for the recommendations! I'll have to look into those. I've been interested in this type of book for a while, but just now started. Sorry, no idea where to find Sun Bin Bing Fa online now, I actually checked the art of war out from a public library. If i find it, i'll let you know.
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# 4
2008-10-14, 15:58
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Re: The Art of war
Sun Pin Ping Fa
Sun Ping was Sun Tzu's grand child and also a military genious. "Il Principe" by Machiavelli (The Prince) is okay but kinda dated. Sun Tzu isn't dated at all in my opinion but Machiavelli is. You could also try Clausewitz' "On War", which will help you understand war up until 1915. Anything after that is to modern to be governed by his rules. Modern warfare, you should read "Achtung Panzer" by Heinz Guderian.
For war Sun Tzu is directly uniformly applicable. Change the word chariot in tank and Sun Tzu was like written yesterday, just an example. Sun Tzu's work was meant for war, not for business. However business is often an economic war so some verses can be used but not all. I think that Chapter I, III and the last chapter are very useable in the cooperate world as they govern preperation, offensive strategy and using spies.
Some other recommendations:
Go Rin No Cho - Musashi
The book of the family traditions of the art of war - Munenori
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# 5
2008-10-15, 02:47
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Re: The Art of war
much of that book is not related even to physical endeavors. the being of water is not something that can be applied, it must be something that is understood. the ideals of creative opportunism are something that can not be expressly taught for war; if you truly understand what he teaches, you will find it affecting every facet of your life - every single one.
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# 6
2008-10-15, 04:46
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Regular
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Great State of Texas
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Re: The Art of war
You mean to tell me that you have begun reading the book and you still have the idea that war is a distinct entity from the rest of your surroundings? Weak! All war is deception. Was this axiom not simply stated in the book?
Read the bible if you want something to live by, read Art of War if you want to keep flavor.
PS. I don't mean to be harsh, rather I am trying to be critical.
Last edited by Big Steamers; 2008-10-15 at 04:52.
Reason: PS
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# 7
2008-10-15, 15:39
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Re: The Art of war
I feel like I must not have communicated what I meant very well...
I realize that it was written for war. Seems like I just need to try and understand the idea behind what he's saying. As far as war, it seems like a great book. Its just that i'd heard people say it was applicable in other situations/life in general, which parts of it are, but not all. It is a great book. Thanks for the help everyone.
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# 8
2008-10-15, 18:48
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Re: The Art of war
the book was NOT written for war. you don't understand it if you think it is. war is merely the greatest allegory for the philosophy it teaches.
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# 9
2008-10-16, 00:44
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Re: The Art of war
Quote:
Originally Posted by danzig
the book was NOT written for war. you don't understand it if you think it is. war is merely the greatest allegory for the philosophy it teaches.
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right. thanks.
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# 10
2008-10-17, 02:50
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Re: The Art of war
how does it even help in war?
"if the enemy is far stronger in numbers evade him" wow  like thank god for "the art of war" or else i would have never thought to do that.
Last edited by ilovesawedoffpump; 2008-10-17 at 03:48.
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#11
2008-10-17, 09:55 |
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Re: The Art of war
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilovesawedoffpump
how does it even help in war?
"if the enemy is far stronger in numbers evade him" wow like thank god for "the art of war" or else i would have never thought to do that. |
You would have no idea how many crazy commanders would gamble everything on one all out charge. And Sun Tzu gives tips elsewhere in the book how to win even against a superior enemy. Its just that you first need to buy yourself time to prepare or lure him to a desired location. Sun Tzu' reading require like 4 dimensions of deeper thought behind every sentence. You clearly lack this. |
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#12
2008-10-17, 16:01 |
LavaRed 
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Re: The Art of war
If you understand Sun Tzu's thinking well enough you'll come to realize the reasoning behind fourth generation warfare (guerrilla), and why the Viet Cong were so good at it - They read their Art of War.
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#13
2008-10-19, 16:13 |
dal7timgar
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Re: The Art of war
What translation are you dealing with:
I prefer Thomas Cleary but his Mastering the Art of War is actually better than The Art of War. It was while reading Mastering that I thought the Chinese invented Vulcans 2500 years ago. LOL
http://www.buy.com/prod/mastering-the-art-of-war/q/loc/106/31145140.html
Know your enemy, know yourself and in 100 battles you will not be defeated.
In the real world knowing yourself may change your thinking about who your enemies are.
It may be better to think in terms of POWER GAMES then WAR. In European culture the word WAR tends to conjure up fighting and destruction but as Sun Tzu says to win without fighting is the optimum solution. Europeans tend to seek battle in my opinion. Ego is more important than wisdom.
http://www.amazon.com/Games-People-Play-Transactional-Analysis/dp/0345410033
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znh58WITU8
DT
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#14
2008-10-19, 22:27 |
Nihilist
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Re: The Art of war
Sun Pin [Bin] may or may not be related to sun tzu, but he was educated in his thoughts. i dont think theres any solid evidence, but if there is id like the correction.
Sun Pins book doesnt exist in its entirety, as it was described as having 89 chapters i beleive, and i think only 16 or so have been found. theres also speculation that it might just be additions to the art of war.
when youre talking about shit that was written thousands of years ago, and then subject to book burnings and suppressions, its hard to know anything for sure.
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#15
2008-10-29, 01:53 |
ReclaimPublicSpace
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Re: The Art of war
The Art of War can be applied to any social situation you find yourself in. It's a must-read for politicians, businessmen, and the like, but also gang leaders, independent musicians, etc. It teaches you everything you will need to know to beat the other guy and get your way. It's an invaluable book. And it's definitely not just about war. That's why its the longest-surviving military manual. Most other manuals go out of use after a few years because the technology changes and a lot of the manual becomes irrelevant, but The Art of War has stayed around for so long because Sun Tzu specifically mentioned any types of weapon/gear as little as possible.
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#16
2008-10-29, 10:54 |
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South Jersey Shore
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Re: The Art of war
My dad was reading this book a while back, to help him with better management techniques at work. He was telling me about a lot of different little stories that Sun Tzu told that would help in managing people who work for him.
One of them being how a king hired sun tzu to teach him about war, and one day the general was complaining about some incompetent generals. So, sun tzu said to him, you can make anybody a general, you can teach anybody to lead a unit of soldiers, and sun tzu told the general he could even teach the kings wives to lead soldiers.
So, he took the kings first wife, and taught her how to command the troops in formation and such, and she couldn't grasp it, so at the final test, she failed miserably at controlling the soldiers. Sun Tzu then ordered two of the soldiers to execute the first wife in front of the other wives. The king and the other wives were shocked at this, so sun tzu then took the kings second wife, and began teaching her to command the soldiers, and she did many many times better than the first wife.
I think I might have gotten some details wrong, but thats basically the frame of the story. The point is, anybody can manage other people, but they do much better if controlling thier people is in thier best interests.
http://tinyurl.com/5c2oc6
This author Robert Greene wrote these books, laws of war, laws of seduction, and laws of power. I haven't personally read these books, although I very much want to. From what I hear, they are very very good in terms of generalizing techniques that every famous commander has used, and it's easier to understand and generally more applicable.
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#17
2008-10-29, 11:47 |
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Re: The Art of war
I think it were 100 concubines and the kings favorite concubine as officer. Sun Tzu explained them how to march seven times and showed them seven times. Then he gave the order and all the woman giggled. He explained to the king that if the officers don't understand its his fault for not explaining well enough. He then proceeded and explained how to march seven times and showed them seven times again. Then he gave the order again to march and again all the women giggled. Upon this Sun Tzu ordered the officer beheaded. The king, sitting upon a balcony witnessed this and quickly dispatched a messenger to Sun Tzu:
"The king would be very lonely at night without his favorite concubine. You have proven your point, you are hired."
Moral: A leader is always responsible for instructing his personell how to execute procedures correctly. If the people under him fail, he has failed to explain it correctly. However if after multiple clear explinations his personell still fail, its not him but the supervisors under him that are to blaim, remove them.
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#18
2008-10-29, 12:07 |
moonmeister
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Re: The Art of war
Though I'm lacking in the reading of such classics?
I do believe that War is always going on. I wonder: is the present state of the World's financial state all just unplanned foolishness...or a way for the US to mess with the rest of the countries? It certainly a way to trasnfer power & resources from the common US citizen to the rich. Just as the IMF/World Bank has been used to lure & capture Third World countries.
As soldiers/guns/bombs are not the only way to wage War.
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#19
2008-11-01, 16:02 |
dal7timgar
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Re: The Art of war
As soldiers/guns/bombs are not the only way to wage War.
The economic wargame is a continuation of the military wargame by other means.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8
One peculiar thing is that nuclear weapons are less than 70 years old and double-entry accounting is 700 years old. Shouldn't accounting be much simpler than nuclear physics? Yet the US has spent billions of dollars and the Soviet Union spent billions of rubles on nuclear weapons. But with all of this debate over capitalism, socialism and communism that has been going on for decades no one insists on mandatory accounting in the schools. Shouldn't that be a lot cheaper than all of the nukes.
The workers are supposed to be stupid economic pawns regardless of ideology. LOL
"All warfare is based on deception." - Sun Tzu
DT
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#20
2008-11-02, 19:42 |
scott07
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Re: The Art of war
it could be used in a wide range of situations, for example this book teaches you the mentality to be in when faced with adversity and basically the underlying message of the book is to try and make you think thigns through and weigh up a situation before diving in.
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