I've read that Einstein was an atheist...

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)

Vanhalla, could you please explain to me the difference between Einstein and an atheist, besides nomenclature (e.g. Einstein calls nature/universe "god" while an atheist calls it nature/universe)?

A Mystic can be classified as an atheist, Einstein could be classified as a mystic.
Not all atheist study the higher order, or the divine so to speak, and all atheists cannot be classified with Einstein.

I can't really answer your question unless I'm given a definition of an atheist and an Einstein.

how was Einstein a mystic?

I can't really answer your question unless I'm given a definition of an atheist and an Einstein.


Then how could you respond to Rory, whose question/statement requires you to know both? Seems to me you've been operating under some definitions in this thread...

Also, I echo Real.PUA's question: What is a mystic, according to you?

Then how could you respond to Rory, whose question/statement requires you to know both? Seems to me you've been operating under some definitions in this thread...

The definition that I was using would be the angle where this statement makes sense.

A Mystic can be classified as an atheist, Einstein could be classified as a mystic.
Not all atheist study the higher order, or the divine so to speak, and all atheists cannot be classified with Einstein.


I am not a seer, I know not how your soul bodies relate these symbols to your being.


Also, I echo Real.PUA's question: What is a mystic, according to you?

Mystic[accordingtoVAN]:


Gnosis of Worlds beyond/betwix mineral and molecular evolution.
Gnosis of the contrast pertaining to the relative and the Absolute.
Gnosis of the Absolute in all things.
Gnosis of etheric realms.

this. not all realities are the same.

perception is reality

The definition that I was using would be the angle where this statement makes sense.

So are you going to tell me the definition or are you going to waste my time even further?

Even then, with your vague definition, can't you already answer the question?

Vanhalla, could you please explain to me the difference between Einstein and an atheist, besides nomenclature (e.g. Einstein calls nature/universe "god" while an atheist calls it nature/universe)?



I am not a seer, I know not how your soul bodies relate these symbols to your being.

Yet you know that Einstein can be a mystic? That is, that he possess the knowledge you claim is required for a "Mystic"?

"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe,' a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation, and a foundation for inner security." -- Albert Einstein, 1950

Well goddamn. Thats just about what I think. Except maybe that nobody is able to achieve it completely (Buddha, Jesus, Mahavira, Prophet Muhammad) I couldn't put it into words so well though

I think that before the big bang, nothing was separated from the rest, there was just "God" (I AM) a singularity

I think at least a part of enlightenment (I can't claim to anywhere near fully understand) is re realizing this connection with everything. "God" is within you, is everywhere, etc.

Perhaps when you die you join with "God" again? As a part of. (nirvana, heaven)
Maybe if you reject this you are reincarnated. Maybe some don't even realize the opportunity of the moment (eternal cycle of suffering. samsara. hell)
Are we all like "Lucifer"? Or does his story symbolize us. Maybe thats what the big bang was, the moment we all broke away and turned our backs. We are told we are forgiven though. Would you prefer to be like this forever or go back to "God"?

Some parts of Christianity have been added on by the church to use religion as a tool, and the same with Islam by different groups, but they still have the core. IMO

Typing this shit down makes me feel like a realization is just over my shoulder where I can't see it

I don't assign myself to any religion in particular

So are you going to tell me the definition or are you going to waste my time even further?

Even then, with your vague definition, can't you already answer the question?

Vanhalla, could you please explain to me the difference between Einstein and an atheist, besides nomenclature (e.g. Einstein calls nature/universe "god" while an atheist calls it nature/universe)?


To do that I would have to describe to you many different layers of atheist and different layers of Einstein and show you where they are alike and where they differ.

but why do I have to tell you this?
You have the tools that allow you to explore the world of thought, fly free my brother, don't let these silly words slow you down.



Yet you know that Einstein can be a mystic? That is, that he possess the knowledge you claim is required for a "Mystic"?

Of the perception my soul bodies have absorbed, it seems overwhelmingly evident that he has personally experienced much of what I was defining.

To do that I would have to describe to you many different layers of atheist and different layers of Einstein and show you where they are alike and where they differ.

Okay, sounds great.... Can't wait!


Of the perception my soul bodies have absorbed, it seems overwhelmingly evident that he has personally experienced much of what I was defining.

Which is a nice way of saying you don't know?

The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenetrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sentiment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself among profoundly religious men.
Einstein certainly seems to at least admire mysticism!
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.
Strange words for an atheist!

"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects."

- Albert Einstein | Quotes

I'd like to add definititions for mysticism and mystic, from Lawrence LeShan:

"Mysticism , from a historical and psychological standpoint, is the search for and experience of the relationship of the individual himself and the totality that makes up the universe. A mystic is either a person who has this knowledge as background music to his daily experience or else a person who strives and works consistently to attain this knowledge."

I think one can sort of be both--some of us hear this "background music" on a rather faint and inconsistent basis and work hard to tune it in more clearly and consistently.

Sadly, western culture devalues and misunderstands the mystic thing, sees mystics as nutballs in turbans who spend lot of time navel-gazing.

Okay, sounds great.... Can't wait!

Well, too bad.
I will give you a little something, which seems self evident throughout this thread, in my subjective experience.

There do exist layers of atheism that embrace mystical experience. Einstein has a layer that entwines with that layer. In my experience the majority of atheist do not embrace the mystical experience, but instead blow it off as useless, or as bullshit.


Which is a nice way of saying you don't know?
Sure, you can think of it in that way.

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic." - Einstein

He was agnostic, considered himself such, has stated such, so stop posting quotes and then explaining how it meant he was religious or atheist.

Many religions, and many atheists have quoted Einstein to support their belief or non-belief. Einstein was very vocal about his opposition and dislike for people who did so. Please fucking stop.

Finally, dredging up Einstein to support your position is nothing more that an appeal to authority, and can be ignored, in the course of debate, unless the debate is solely about Einstiens religious or non-religious beliefs, and THE FACT IS........IT IS AGNOSTIC!!!

^Agreed, but let's be clear here-- by definition, agnostics do not say there IS no God, but that God cannot be known.

That said, definitions tend to suck. Depending on which definition you go by, I am either an agnostic, atheist, gnostic Christian, pantheist, animist Buddhist or banana cream pie. Far as I'm concerned, I'm just this guy-- "I am that I am."

THE FACT IS........IT IS AGNOSTIC!!!
An Agnostic that embraced the Mystical Experience, which is not the same as religious in the way that you use the term.

Gnosis does not mean objective knowledge, it means inner experience.

Do you see how Atheism, Agnosticism, and Mysticism have layers of similar (&differing) qualities?

Do you see how we are not saying he was religious or atheistic?

I do not see why you are so angry.

Well, too bad.
I will give you a little something, which seems self evident throughout this thread, in my subjective experience.

There do exist layers of atheism that embrace mystical experience. Einstein has a layer that entwines with that layer. In my experience the majority of atheist do not embrace the mystical experience, but instead blow it off as useless, or as bullshit.



How does Einstein, in your opinion (that's the only thing your post is), potentially being a mysctic (according to your own definition and your own speculation) relate to Rory's question or really anything important in this conversation?

Rory asked if Einstein was an atheist. You provided a quote. Either you're implying with that quote an answer, or you replied to him with something irrelevant...



Sure, you can think of it in that way.

Do you or do you not know whether Einstein possessed that knowledge? Unless your're claiming that you know as a matter of fact, I don't see how I could think of it any other way...

How does Einstein, in your opinion (that's the only thing your post is), potentially being a mysctic (according to your own definition and your own speculation) relate to Rory's question or really anything important in this conversation?

He thought he read that Einstein was an atheist, the quotes of this thread imply that it is more complex than that.


Do you or do you not know whether Einstein possessed that knowledge? Unless your're claiming that you know as a matter of fact, I don't see how I could think of it any other way...

What kind of question is that?
I've never claimed to have objective knowledge of anything.
I believe there is an imperishable light within the "I".
Anything we perceive is a distortion of this light.

So you see, I don't know, but it's more complex than that.

He thought he read that Einstein was an atheist, the quotes of this thread imply that it is more complex than that.

And that helps him out how exactly? Had you actually bothered to answer what the differences between Einstein and an atheist are, we might have gotten closer to an answer. Saying "It's complex" is pretty much dismissing it.



What kind of question is that?What do you mean what kind of question? I said you didn't know, and you responded by saying I could think of it that way.. to which I asked: what other way is there to "think" about it when that's precisely the truth? You don't know, do you? Hence that's the way to think about.

And that helps him out how exactly?

Helpful in that it is something he himself wrote, giving insight into what he thought, instead of saying "he is an atheist" or "he is agnostic" or "he is a mystic". You can read what he wrote and see that there are aspects of each. Making Einstein not so easily classified, thus more complex.

Giving insight into what he himself thought.

Had you actually bothered to answer what the differences between Einstein and an atheist are, we might have gotten closer to an answer. Saying "It's complex" is pretty much dismissing it.
"There do exist layers of atheism that embrace mystical experience. Einstein has a layer that entwines with that layer. In my experience the majority of atheist do not embrace the mystical experience, but instead blow it off as useless, or as bullshit."

Hey look at that.

relate to Rory's question or really anything important in this conversation?


Thread title: Albert Einstein on spirituality


What do you mean what kind of question? I said you didn't know, and you responded by saying I could think of it that way.. to which I asked: what other way is there to "think" about it when that's precisely the truth? You don't know, do you? Hence that's the way to think about."I've never claimed to have objective knowledge of anything.
I believe there is an imperishable light within the "I".
Anything we perceive is a distortion of this light."

I'm not even sure what to say because it seems you agree with me on every one of my points:


1. You didn't answer his question.

2. You didn't answer my question.

3 .You don't know what Einstein knew regarding the "mystical".

I don't have the answers

I don't have the answers

Could you post those links to the books about quantum physics and aerothmoerty (sp?) and stuff?

Could you post those links to the books about quantum physics and aerothmoerty (sp?) and stuff?

Search for my posts the knowledge thread and the SotD recommended reading thread.

Could you post those links to the books about quantum physics and aerothmoerty (sp?) and stuff?

One of the more seminal works on the subject is The Tao of Physics, by Fritjof Capra.

I don't have the answers

Again, I think I've been saying that through out our conversation...

^Agreed, but let's be clear here-- by definition, agnostics do not say there IS no God, but that God cannot be known.

I have a problem with the way you wrote that. I feel it implies that agnostics believe there is a God, you just can't know God. Perhaps you didn't mean to do that, but...

TO BE CLEAR...

An agnostic believes that God cannot be proven or disproven. They are on the fence. They could go either way, but don't, b/c of a lack of evidence.

----

Some have speculated he was a mystic. This, is bullshit, and your fucking morons for doing so. Einstein stated he was an agnostic, and was outspoken against theist and atheist alike for using his quoted musings to tie him down to one side or the other.

I have a problem with the way you wrote that. I feel it implies that agnostics believe there is a God, you just can't know God. Perhaps you didn't mean to do that, but...

TO BE CLEAR...

An agnostic believes that God cannot be proven or disproven. They are on the fence. They could go either way, but don't, b/c of a lack of evidence.

----

Some have speculated he was a mystic. This, is bullshit, and your fucking morons for doing so. Einstein stated he was an agnostic, and was outspoken against theist and atheist alike for using his quoted musings to tie him down to one side or the other.

Most atheists are agnostic in the same way that they are agnostic about the tooth fairy. Because Einstein said he was agnostic this does not mean he thought the existance or unexistance of god are equally likely. Clearly he rejected the idea of a personal god. I think your definition of agnostic implies all agnostics are 50/50.

Albert Einstein, do you think he knew something about reference frames?

It would appear that his views on the subject evolved over time, as have all of ours, I think.

Too bad the quotes don't include when he first said them.

Because Einstein said he was agnostic this does not mean he thought the existance or unexistance of god are equally likely.

Are you saying b/c Einstein said he was an agnostic, he thought there was a greater chance there was a God as there was not? For every quote you have suggesting he was more of a believer there are an equal number showing the opposite. This man is clearly an agnostic.

Arms...I have dates for the quotes. Einstein died in 1955. Let's start with one a scant year before his death, shall we?

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. - Einstein 1954

Did not consider himself religious. If you had to consider him religious he gives you the structure of the world so far as SCIENCE can reveal it. This a year before his death.

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic." - Einstein 1951

THE MAN STATES HIS OBVIOUS POSITION!!! 4 years before his death. Perhaps he found some type of God before he died...

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."(Albert Einstein, Obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955)
http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm

Well shit, that is his obituary. He basically says "I don't know what the fuck is going to happen, I imagine the christian God is a ton of shit, but I simply dont now what the fuck comes next. Don't have a clue. BECAUSE I AM AGNOSTIC".

What is QUITE CLEAR is that the man disliked Christians (as most intelligent people Bonaparte, Mark Twain, etc. do), and he was a fucking agnostic. These are the facts, and I will remind you again that Einstein loathed people intellectually dishonest enough to portray him as a religious man. Was outspoken against you people. Please stop.

He professed agnosticism. He clearly was not a fan of taking the experience of life to the level of organized religion, but it is also very clear he understood that the experience of life held within it a tremendous sense of awe and humility when an individual looks at the magnitude of existence and sees himself as such a small piece of something tremendous. Sometimes he described this universe in spiritual terminology, more often though, he did not. There remains no doubt in my mind that he was uncertain of religion, but likewise, there is no doubt that he was not closed to the idea of spiritual concepts. Agnosticism is the self professed standing, and all evidence points to it as well.

I think that he knew he didn't know.

I think he was speaking directly on "god".

Well Einstein had many awesome quotes and they shouldn't be taken to seriously its up to the person who is reading the quote to figure out what it means to them

Are you saying b/c Einstein said he was an agnostic, he thought there was a greater chance there was a God as there was not?

No.

He was probably only slightly more of an agnostic than Richard Dawkins. You didn't seem to read the last post so to reiterate you describing his position as fence sitting implies he was probably 50/50 about the existence or non existence of God, whereas his rejection of the notion of a personal God suggests he was more of an atheist, or atleast agnostic in a scientific way. Strictly, any true scientist will be agnostic about the existence of most thing, it's just a matter of evidence.

I think he was speaking directly on "god".

Not sure if you are asserting that b/c he talked about god, he believed in him or was not an agnostic...

The man can talk about god and not believe in him, god damn it.

Read the quotes at the top of this page, pay close attention to the man's obituary.

the rest of this topic got too bullshitty for me but that is a damn good quote.

brokeprophet, from what i have read of your posts, you may as well just tell us again that you hate Christianity and/or organized religion for every time you post; it is the undercurrent for every post you write and i now am unable to take anything you say seriously due to your blatant anti-religious agenda
i think you are religious but, you have suppressed it and convinced yourself of the "no god" belief so you don't feel guilty about wanting to live your life just as you please, and to give yourself the excuse when you die of saying " umm sowi but i didn't know, no-one told me it was real, i would of bin better had i known, please don't leave me outside."