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| Politics: Left, Right, and Center National, state, regional, and local politics. Who's doing what to whom, and what you can do about it. How-to-get-action messages are encouraged. "How the government fucked up my life" stories are encouraged. Sharing new methods for cheating on taxes is encouraged. Sample "letters to congresscritters" are encouraged. Apathy and "I can't do anything" posts are discouraged. Left, right, centrist, or any other form of political-economic systems are all up for discussion. Be prepared to defend yourself, or at least have a good line of bullshit ready. Extensive quoting of economists and philosophers is frowned upon. We want to hear what YOU have to say, not what some constipated, impotent, dead guy dreamt up while suffering from the DT's over a hundred years ago thought. |
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# 1

2008-09-12, 18:32
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Regular
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Lucid in the sky with demons
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How to save Western democracy.
Democracy in the West (most notably so in America) is overrun by corporate interests. This is not the result of a conspiracy or some clandestine secret society, but an inevitable part of un-socialised capitalism. Corporate lobbyists and lawyers have taken over democracy. Their sole aim is to increase profitablilty for the company and give it an advantage over rivals. In a globalised economy National Workers Unions become useless, as big business has the choice of relocating if their existing workforce is demanding higher wages. Without nationalised industry, the industry becomes open to competition. This is usually brilliant for the consumer. Ultimately, the wants and needs of the consumer are incompatible with that of the citizen. However, low prices do not come from nowhere. A massive quasi-industry has grown around the stockmarkets, which rely on companies returning as greater profit as possible.
When so much money is invested in the stockmarket the corporatocracy is pressured to increase the value of its stock by perpetually increasing profit margins. They cannot do this by increasing prices as todays economy of mass consumerism relies on getting goods to the public as cheaply as possible, and such a wealth of competition exists meaning any individual comapny which raises prices out of sync is out-competed. They cannot cut back on R&D becuase todays consumer society relies on the newest, fastest shiniest technology being churned out. Instead, they are forced to squeeze suppliers and trim workforces. CEOs and bosses who over-see mass lay-offs are rewarded with six figure bonuses.
Ultimately, we need to seperate business from politics. The consumer in us will need to take a subordinate role to the citizen in us. Corporate donations need to be vastly limited, and importantly the loopholes which corporate lobbyists use to donate more money to individuals (via satellite firms, "charity fundraisers" and banquets held to "honour" politicians) need to be closed. Media outlets need to give free or low cost campain advertising. Lobbyists will have to be forced to declare all incomes and expenses to the public. "Expert witnesses" in key corporate trails will have to declare all financial links to the company on trial (or as it should be, CEO on trial).
For democracy to function properly we need to reduce the effect of corporate money on politics. Remember that a corporation is not a person, and should not have the same rights as a person. If the CEO and major partners want to give a limited donation, make them do it with their own money, not the companies. Or failing that, employees and shareholders in companies who's CEOs give political donations taken from the companies coffers should be able to claim a rebate from the company if they disagree. (This system is already in place in many trade unions). A corporation should not have the right to sue. The CEO and owners should have the right to launch legal proceedings against other CEOs or the government if their company has been wronged. Similarly, the right to sue a corporation should not exist. The exact perpetrators of the wrongdoing should be sued. If a manager makes a decision which creates the situation where the company is doing soemthign illegal, the manager should be sued. If the company as a whole is sued, the company punishes the lowliest workers (who had no say over the initial decision) by trimming the workforce to meet the costs of the fine and maintain profitability and shareprices. In the same way, corporate tax is ultimately shared amongst the workers and shareholders, when it should be concentrated on management. Tax the people who make the money out of the corporation, not the corporation.
A trend has grown of late for relying on voluntary actions by the megacorps when they are exposed. When the quality of meat put into MacDonalds was exposed, or when the working conditions in Nike and Puma factories made public, no legal action was taken by the government. (Not becuase the government is evil, but because any legislation would have been shot down by the lobbyists). Instead MacDonalds, Nike and Puma all promised action themselves. Unbelievable ammounts of money have been spent on advertsing campaigns since telling us that they have changed. Maybe they have a little, but there are endless other companies out there who haven't. When Democracy is cut free from the lobbyists, we will be able to regulate in a manner which does not punish the one company which is actually caught red handed, but prevent all companies from doing the same (and therefor does not put any single company at a disadvantage). If a law restricts all corporations equally, they have a habit of not lobbying against it (see McCain-Feingold Act).
If corporations are permitted to give small donations, then citizens should too. In a similar idea to State pension schemes, ordinary citizens should be given an allowance to spend on campain doantions. This should be taken from universal tax and take the form of a government voting cheque, so degenerates couldn't spend it on booze. If th citizen chooses not to withdraw or cash the cheque, then it should allocated to public service.
All these are ideas I think will help us reclaim democracy, and I value your thoughts on them. Most importantly however, I welcome any suggestions on how to impliment them initially while the corporate lobbyists exist to kill them off before they make it to law.
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# 2

2008-09-12, 18:40
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
Ban lobbyists and add seperation of corporations and state to the constitution.
There your done. 
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# 3

2008-09-12, 19:11
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
Good post, you make a lot of good points that I agree with. I especially like the "don't allow corps to sue or be sued" because it makes more sense to deal with the problem directly so that way the low positions will not suffer from it.
I hope you realize however that all of these wonderful changes to "save" our democracy are not going to be able to happen democratically. You already know that corporate interests have engulfed our democratic system and that it is severely controlled and flawed. The ship is sinking. Fast. It is beyond saving. There comes a time where you come to the realization that the best plan of action is to abandon the sinking vessel and get as far from it as possible. The time comes where you must build a new boat from scratch and forget trying to salvage the sinking one.
Unfortunately since democratic means are impossible, that only leaves one option. Undemocratic means, as in... with force.
Do you know what this means?
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.
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-JFK
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# 4

2008-09-13, 08:05
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Regular
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Australia, south east
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
American democracy was built on corprate interests
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# 5

2008-09-13, 08:48
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Regular
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Lucid in the sky with demons
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mötleÿ Crüe
American democracy was built on corprate interests
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Before WWII the corporations had nowhere near enough power to influence democracy. By the 50s, airlines, telephone, radio, natural gas, nuclear power, banking and agribusiness were all effectively nationalised industries. Government had the power over the corporations as opposed to visa-versa. It's only since the privatisation of these companies and the massive increase of competetion that resulted after the Cold War that has lead to Democracy being threatened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toastman
Quote:
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Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.
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-JFK
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I sometimes cringe when I hear that quote, but here it is definately valid. There is a slim chance that we could pass these things one policy at a time, and as I said earlier if an Act has the same negative consequences on all corporations they may not lobby against it, as was true with the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act. But if not.......
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# 6

2008-09-13, 08:51
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
Teach the rich & powerful to give good head.
Thus teaching them their true place. Pick one. Teach him. Wipe him clean of clues. Send him back to his kind.
ps: May lead to SD. Prison. Retribution. Be sure before you act. 
Last edited by moonmeister; 2008-09-13 at 08:54.
Reason: be sure run silent/run deep ;)
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# 7

2008-09-14, 11:56
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
I agree with a lot of what you said.
If the media provides low cost campaign advertising then they have greater control over what is shown. By providing a bit of money it gives them an incentive to advertise a political idea they don't fully agree with.
How does corporations tax pick on the employees? It affects the whole company.
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# 8

2008-09-14, 23:10
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Regular
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Lucid in the sky with demons
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
Because if the company is fined something needs to be done to cover the fine, return the company to profit and raise the share prices. They can't do this by increasing prices or cutting back on advertising or R&D, so they trim the manufacturing workforce or freeze pay. If an individual is fined they have to cover the cost themselves.
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# 9

2008-09-15, 01:24
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewcifer
Because if the company is fined something needs to be done to cover the fine, return the company to profit and raise the share prices. They can't do this by increasing prices or cutting back on advertising or R&D, so they trim the manufacturing workforce or freeze pay. If an individual is fined they have to cover the cost themselves.
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That is fines not tax.
Corporations tax is only paid on profit. The employees are paid before profit. The managers don't care about profit because their wages are also paid before profit. It is only the owners - the shareholders - that care about profit. Thus it is only in the shareholders interest to minimize corporations tax.
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# 10

2008-09-15, 07:23
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Re: How to save Western democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewcifer
If corporations are permitted to give small donations, then citizens should too. In a similar idea to State pension schemes, ordinary citizens should be given an allowance to spend on campain doantions. This should be taken from universal tax and take the form of a government voting cheque, so degenerates couldn't spend it on booze. If th citizen chooses not to withdraw or cash the cheque, then it should allocated to public service.
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I agree with all but the campaign donation allowance for citizens. Let them spend what they want, but make it available to the public who spent on who and how much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlentyofTorrents.com
Ban lobbyists and add seperation of corporations and state to the constitution.
There your done. 
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Yeah, that too. Too bad it would be sort of difficult due to 2/3rds of a Congress likely catering to special interests having to vote on it.
Last edited by $tinger; 2008-09-15 at 07:30.
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This thread continued for 2 pages in the real archive, 11 posts total - only page 1 survived here.
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