I'm getting into the Opensource OS scene

[Numberjumbo]

Which Linux/Unix/Whateverthefuck OS would be the best for a beginner?

I found an old Ubuntu 6.10 CD in my room, I installed that on VMWare.

[Prometheum]

This is the Free Software scene.

There are only two really used free OS's. They're Gnu and BSD (you'll commonly see Gnu referred to as Linux; this is both wrong from a technical and every other logical standpoint, so say Gnu/Linux or Gnu if you want to not look like an idiot). The big choice is what distro to use.

Ubuntu is probably the best for a beginner. The latest is 8.04, I suggest you use that. The other big options that are thrown around on this board are Fedora, OpenSuSe (which might be dangerous due to Novell's involvement), and Slackware (for the noob that wants to learn by the 'crash and burn underwater somehow or swim' method).

No matter what you choose, we (and many other people in the free software community) will help you run it. You're making a good choice.

You can also try Debian, I find easier to use than what most people think...

Originally Posted by Prometheum

, so say Gnu/Linux or Gnu if you want to not look like an idiot

Please stop with this. I know that calling the OS "Linux" is wrong, still I call it linux, What is the big problem? It is just a name.

Originally Posted by Beka

Please stop with this. I know that calling the OS "Linux" is wrong, still I call it linux, What is the big problem? It is just a name.

I think the GNU operating system stands for a lot more than what the actual Linux kernel stands for. So I think it's only right to attach the GNU prefix.

Originally Posted by Prometheum

This is the Free Software scene.

There are only two really used free OS's. They're Gnu and BSD (you'll commonly see Gnu referred to as Linux; this is both wrong from a technical and every other logical standpoint, so say Gnu/Linux or Gnu if you want to not look like an idiot). The big choice is what distro to use.

He said Open Source, and not free software.
BSD is an obselete operating system from the 80's.
You probably mean FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD.
Linux is a kernel, therefore it is not an *OS*.
gnu/Linux is an Operating System.
But you understand Linux does not require GNU, except gcc, but that is only to compile it.
Therefore, it's a distribution of the Linux kernel.

If you are planning to learn something, follow my advice, otherwise listen to Pr0metheum.
If you want a Linux kernel, go with Arch Linux.
(Which is aimed at the desktop *market*)
If you want a deriative of the BSD OS, go with FreeBSD.
(Which is multi-usage but more server oriented)
Both have great documentation and are distributed under an OSS approved license.
(The other BSD-like OS'es are a bit less documented, and the mailing lists are run by pro-elitism)

The GPL/LGPL (Linux kernel) is more restrictive than the family of BSD-like licenses (Some part are on the beer license, which is pretty much the less restrictive before public domain).

[Prometheum]

Originally Posted by Beka

You can also try Debian, I find easier to use than what most people think...



Please stop with this. I know that calling the OS "Linux" is wrong, still I call it linux, What is the big problem? It is just a name.

I'm never going to stop this, because names are immensely important.

When you say Gnu/Linux, you aren't just) saying that "a large part of this OS was written by the GNU Project" or "This is the completion of the GNU Project's project to build a free OS", you're saying "I respect and value freedom". Gnu means freedom.

Think of the difference between Stallman and Torvalds. Think of which one the non-free media would have representing the most free OS.

Originally Posted by Prometheum

Think of which one the non-free media would have representing the most free OS.

I agree, Torvalds needs to be STFU sometimes, if it wasn't of the GNU project, Linux would have died pretty quickly.

* An OS needs a kernel GNU alone is not an OS *

The most free OS, you must be fucking kidding the linux kernel is full of blobs. Most distributions repos are full of non-free software, some even installed out of the box.
gNewSense is void.

The mainstream distros are run by *big* companies that could be defined as *evil*:
Canonsense
Red Flag
Novell SUckSE
Linspire
PCLinuxOS
Mandriva

The few that are still run completely by communities:
Debian
T2 SDE
Slackware (more of a single individual than a community)
Zenwalk
Gentoo (not sure)
Arch Linux (That is a GREAT example of the power of a community)
Owl

Fedora and OpenSUSE are puppets of RHEL and SUSE.

OpenBSD is one of the few that tries very hard to not include blobs in the kernel.
* Refer to the war stallman vs theo, which showed how stallman is a fucking rich hypocrite *

Unless you are talking about hurd, which is DEAD, even UnixWare is healtier.

[Prometheum]

Originally Posted by zeusy

I agree, Torvalds needs to be STFU sometimes, if it wasn't of the GNU project, Linux would have died pretty quickly.

* An OS needs a kernel GNU alone is not an OS *

The most free OS, you must be fucking kidding the linux kernel is full of blobs. Most distributions repos are full of non-free software, some even installed out of the box.
gNewSense is void.

Yes, and OS needs a kernel, but GNU has what, five to choose from? Linux is one of many.

And yeah, Linux is blobbed to hell, but it's still GPL (mostly), so all users have freedom. This is a contrast to BSD-derived systems, where nobody getting the software from anyone but the upstream has any guarantee of freedom.

gNewSense is quite good, and there's also Ututo, Blag, Dyne, and some other one I forget. There's also linux-libre, a fully free mainline kernel. They aren't 'void', and while most distros have separate repos for non-free software, OpenBSD includes non-free software directly in the ports tree.

Originally Posted by zeusy

The mainstream distros are run by *big* companies that could be defined as *evil*:
Canonsense
Red Flag
Novell SUckSE
Linspire
PCLinuxOS
Mandriva

The few that are still run completely by communities:
Debian
T2 SDE
Slackware (more of a single individual than a community)
Zenwalk
Gentoo (not sure)
Arch Linux (That is a GREAT example of the power of a community)
Owl

You forgot to include BLAG, Ututo, gNewSense, and Dynebolic in the latter, but that's still a tiny subset of all total Gnu distributions. Also, of the former, I would say that Red Hat and Canonical aren't "evil" in the slightest. Red Hat (to my knowledge) doesn't produce any proprietary software and supports a lot of free software. Canonical has one non-free piece of software (that wasn't an issue before the AGPL was created), and it has plans to release it freely. Canonical also tried to sponsor a fully free distro of it's own (Gobuntu), but the gNewSense people basically stole its thunder.

Novell and Linspire, most definitely evil. And Gentoo is controlled by a company, but is community-controlled (I believe it might be a non-profit).

Originally Posted by zeusy

Fedora and OpenSUSE are puppets of RHEL and SUSE.

Fedora yes, but that doesn't matter. Fedora is actually just upstream RHEL. OpenSuSe has a totally different devel team, and just gets occasionally raided by Novell for Enterprise SuSe materials (but also gets funding and support from Novell). I still wouldn't use OpenSuSe because of the patent crap.

Originally Posted by zeusy

OpenBSD is one of the few that tries very hard to not include blobs in the kernel.
* Refer to the war stallman vs theo, which showed how stallman is a fucking rich hypocrite *

What, the one on misc@ a while ago where Theo was bitching like a 10 year old about how Stallman wouldn't call OpenBSD fully free because they have non-free software in their ports tree? The one where Theo said all GNU programs are non-free because they're portable to Windows? The one where Theo famously said,

The only way to make it clear to him (stallman) that he should not come here to our lists in the future, is to teach him a hard lesson, and that is done by continually re-adding cc's back to him -- because the mails talk about him -- even when his friends come our mailing lists and delete the his address from the cc list. Like this message, which adds him back in. Richard, you are a lying cheating hypocrite.

* "OpenBSD.misc mailing list", 2007-12-14.

Oh yeah, great win for theo. I bet RMS is a queer fag, too.

Originally Posted by zeusy

Unless you are talking about hurd, which is DEAD, even UnixWare is healtier.

HURD's not dead. STFU.


Also, a misconception that people have about my saying Gnu is that I mean "The programs written by people claiming allegiance to the GNU Project". This is false. When I say Gnu, I mean "the free operating system announced by RMS". The beauty of a free OS is that it can incorporate any free program. This includes the kernel. This is why it is irrelevant to say Gnu/Linux; unless you are talking about an issue that comes up when running Gnu with the Linux kernel.

[Numberjumbo]

My thread's already raped..

Originally Posted by Prometheum

What, the one on misc@ a while ago where Theo was bitching like a 10 year old about how Stallman wouldn't call OpenBSD fully free because they have non-free software in their ports tree? The one where Theo said all GNU programs are non-free because they're portable to Windows

I belive it wasn't only theo, the whole OpenBSD project (including the openssh, and packet filter teams) and few from other similar projects.
If theo's claim are true, they most likely are, gcc and emacs include code in them to make them easier to port to Windows.

Ports are a patch, a descr and a checksum.
They aren't in any way endorsed by the OpenBSD project, therefore not part of the OpenBSD project.
(If it didn't change in 4.3, it's not even part of the default install, and you need to set PKGPATH)
He calls OpenBSD not fully free, while gcc and emacs *if theos claims are true* include code to make it easier to port them to a non-free OS. I don't recall him calling the Linux kernel non-free because it includes blobs. (correct me if i'm wrong)
This is what i meant by hypocrisy, not theo's e-balls.

Unix programmers are known to get on they're high horse often and being elitists, that's not news.

Originally Posted by Prometheum

HURD's not dead. STFU.

hurd is dead, STFU and admit it.

Originally Posted by Prometheum

gNewSense is quite good, and there's also Ututo, Blag, Dyne, and some other one I forget. There's also linux-libre, a fully free mainline kernel. They aren't 'void', and while most distros have separate repos for non-free software, OpenBSD includes non-free software directly in the ports tree.
You forgot to include BLAG, Ututo, gNewSense, and Dynebolic in the latter, but that's still a tiny subset of all total Gnu distributions. Also, of the former, I would say that Red Hat and Canonical aren't "evil" in the slightest. Red Hat (to my knowledge) doesn't produce any proprietary software and supports a lot of free software. Canonical has one non-free piece of software (that wasn't an issue before the AGPL was created), and it has plans to release it freely. Canonical also tried to sponsor a fully free distro of it's own (Gobuntu), but the gNewSense people basically stole its thunder.

Novell and Linspire, most definitely evil. And Gentoo is controlled by a company, but is community-controlled (I believe it might be a non-profit).

What i meant by 'void' is they basically only exists to provide a fully free system, they aren't ( server-oriented desktop-oriented poweruser-oriented luser-oriented [..] )
They exist for the sole purpose of being free, no innovation, no new *philosophy* or *design* if you prefer.

Canoncial is most definetely evil, they raped the debian repos, created something completely useless, made absolutely no innovation except creating a HELL for those trying to document GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux doesn't need newbies, it needs power-user. Ubuntu had privileges from Mike Shottleworth, instead of helping the distros that tried to make it easier for the newbies, he simply duplicated the efforts made by other distributions to make more *friendlier*, and got the credit.
And has failed to educate people about the unix-way and Free Software.


Do you know what the GNU/Linux community looked like before Ubuntu came in?
It was a place where everybody shared the same belief about Free Software and a place where everything was done the *unix-way*. ( where you didn't need to mention it's GNU/Linux, they knew it, they just didn't really care )


At the beginning Ubuntu was complete crap, it attracted a lot of newbies, that started complaining about how GNU/Linux is not like Windows.
As the Ubuntu project (codenamed 666) progressed, it became even more automated, Windows lusers started to like it.
It also attracted newbies to the Linux kernel, since then the quality has seriously decreased. A lot of long time Linux developers left because of it, a lot of third-party kernel modules started to break, and blobs started becoming more common.

Canonsense comes at top of the list when it comes to evilness in my book, even before Microsoft.


I also blame Red Hat, if they didn't *fork*, it could have been one of the greatest distro for newbies.