Not me blah blah disclaimer bull blah blah.


Alright, so someone I know is going through a pretty bad detox, he had good self control for like a year or so but now fucked up, it's been a constant year doing this.

Anyways, what does he need for the detox?

I heard a bathtub, shower was excellent.

buckets?

benzos?

codeine?

help is appreciated.

nsaids, benzos, alcohol, weed, definitely.

being clean always feels great when having a bad drug experience, so definitely showers, tooth brush/tooth paste, comb, deodorant, changes of clothes, etc

^i dunno if that last part is just drugs aggravating my ocd or if its like that with everyone, but i feel so much better clean on drugs.

a friend will always help so much too.

Maybe he should consider gradually tapering off opes. Once the opiate dosage is low enough he can switch to benzos for a while. Weed is always good.

Heroin is hard drug to quit. just send him on a seniors' gamblin' tour bus and have him gambling on every riverboat on this side of the San Antone. Sorry, for the smartass remark, but the other posters have given ya good advice, I think, so I have nothing better to do.

Also make sure you eat.

Stay away from ANY OPIATES/agonists/partial agonists.
Multivitamin.
flaxseedoil.
fishoil other omega 3 sources may be substituted.
ALOT OF WEED.
Stay away from benzos or you will just trade up.
Otc sleep aids.
Immodium (lopermide is the ONE EXCEPTION OF a opiate//oid you can take)

Take as needed meaning if you do not have bad stomach cramps and shits avoid the immodium.

Abstinence is key.
just one more time never works.
Also make sure you eat.
this is important along with the above. if you cant eat solid get nutritional protiene and vitamin drinks.
I have had problems with morphine and detoxed dabbled with h a bit to during hose times.I was on morphine and other opiates/oids for atlease 6-9 months. I got clean then i made the mistake of "doing it just one more time" one day turned to many and habits were reoccuring and repetative. I ended up cleaning up for a bit and trying to chip. chiping never worked for me because i would secure a supply for atleast a few days. i ended up doing black tar h for a 6 months. I met suboxone. i did good for a while and tapered. then I just started up again and wasted my suboxone to taper. I ended illicitly using methadone(no taper just to get high) for atleast a month or two and now i am 8 days clean from mdone. This was all in about 3 years time on and off clean at times and suboxonated at other times (what some claim to be as clean)

ultimately your friend or you whoever it is is going to need SUPPORT FROM family and friends. going to meetings can help. you dont have to do 12 steps just goto meetings.

21 day taper...


painless. or a trip far away from his home.

It is not always painless and you REALLY need to have someone else controling the does or you will just end up wanting to get high.

If taper is his choice i suggest buprenorphine it really is much easier to taper off of.

And hot baths do wonders for the muscle aches, bone pain, and chills.

...ilovechronic gave a lot of good advice only thing I'd add is to take Kratom along with the things he suggested. Kratom combined with Mary will greatly help, atleast with the major part of the withdrawals. Get outdoors as well, moderate exercise will help.

I wouldn't suggest the slow taper as that is very difficult, and frankly since you was able to get yourself addicted you'll want to get yourself far away from what your trying to quit. Some can do the taper however I feel safe to say that most can not.

.peace.

If taper is his choice i suggest buprenorphine it really is much easier to taper off of.

well that is the designed purpose of bupe. but really any opiate works, provided you know the half life, and have a method of not over doing it. if you were to do it with heroin for example, you'd want one consisetent batch [a large amount, dumb idea when your trying to quit]...


a friend of mine had some sucess with time-released oxycodone actually, kinda through my previous thoughts through the window...



it really depends on the size of the habit. if your using a bundle [powder] to get high, bupe won't be that helpful until you stabalize at a lower dose. there are many different kinds of tapers but it really kind of matters where you start [obviously a 24mg taper takes longer than say 16]..



and yes talking about it is key, this is a drug forum after all. some of us kinda know what you or "your friend" are going through...

well that is the designed purpose of bupe. but really any opiate works, provided you know the half life, and have a method of not over doing it. if you were to do it with heroin for example, you'd want one consisetent batch [a large amount, dumb idea when your trying to quit]...


a friend of mine had some sucess with time-released oxycodone actually, kinda through my previous thoughts through the window...



it really depends on the size of the habit. if your using a bundle [powder] to get high, bupe won't be that helpful until you stabalize at a lower dose. there are many different kinds of tapers but it really kind of matters where you start [obviously a 24mg taper takes longer than say 16]..



and yes talking about it is key, this is a drug forum after all. some of us kinda know what you or "your friend" are going through...
yeah I know what your saying, everyone is different some tapering schedules work for some and not . i Am willing to offer support and any help I can to your friend as I am going through the same thing. But I plan to actually quit this time. Ihave had it and have been in it long enough.

I ALWAYS kept my habit low, no more than 100mgs of mscontin(usually sticking with the timerelease) when i first got bad. i quit and then started again on H after chipping for a while. Chipping didn't last anytime i have tried. But I never would steal or anything to get dope. i am a weird kind of addict. i put my morals in front of my addiction.i will not make some one suffer withdrawls if i jacked them so i didnt have to, i would take heat and go through W/d if i didnt have h. i would never rip off some one. i have before I used opiates. i was a little rebel kid with not a care in the world. i think opiates and other drugs have definetly changed me from what I was to a much more careful and cautious person(paranoia?or basic instinct of survival?)

The thing i noticed is that methadone in shorterm depenence(1 month-2months) with drawals are actually less severe than morphine or heroin but they are more drawnout thanthe shorter acting substances.

Before I took mdone i only needed 2mgs of bupe tops to hold me over for 36 hours but i dosed every 24 to build it up over about a month. Then i tapered over 21 days like suggested and had no withdrawals. I tapered to .05-1mg and jumped off the bupe for atleast 2 weeks with no withdrawal. But the temptation caught me i and i used "one more time" and fucked allover again doing h and then methadone and now i am where i am at 8 days clean.

i know kratom will help. But in high doses you just taking another mu opioid receptor agonist. Basically prolonging the worst of the withdrawals.

man you have to pay the price for doing opis everyday.

And thank you I forgot to add the exercise. NOTHING STRENOUS. It is suggested to swim since it is low impact on the body. But as sooon as you can get up and start getting busy and exercising. even just walking will help.

sorry for the double posts mods just trying to get as much info as i can to this guy, i know how it feels.


Here this will help you alot:
www.heroinhelper.com/sick/do_it_yourself.shtml


This will help with what supplements to take:i know its for mdone but it can apply and help with h also.



"1) Most Methadone clinics are for profit, private enterprises, do you really think they want you off the methadone. The cost of a dose of methadone is about $1.00…what are they charging you?

2) Since all associated therapists and counselors that work the methadone clinics are trained and get their information from the standard medical establishment…do you really think they know the truth…no one is saying that they are not caring individuals--but they don’t know the truth anymore than the people who prescribe the medication to you. If fact most of them think we’re idiots because we doubt and ask questions. The fact is that we do not know the long range effects of methadone on the human body and mind…many are now thinking that the longer you are on the methadone the more profound, and possibly irreversible these changes may be…In fact we don’t know the exact mechanism of action of many psychotropic drugs—just review the Physicians Desk Reference on Prozac…along with the countless other caustic chemicals we insist on putting in the human body.

3) Methadone is one of the most physically dependent medications invented in the 20th century. The reason for this is a) its long half-life (24-36 hours)…b) it is a synthetic morphine, c) the diabolic symptomology associated with withdrawal and the length of the withdrawal symptoms. Methadone, like all opioids creates profound changes to gastrointestinal function… In layman’s terms this means that regardless of the food you eat--absorption of the vital nutrients is impaired. If nutrients cannot be absorbed in sufficient quantities and associated quality…all biochemical pathways in the body are affected negatively. Chronic fatigue, sleeplessness, aches and pains, depression, anxiety, are all signs and symptoms of these deficiencies. Methadone also has profound effects on brain neurotransmitter production and function. It is also known that it creates havoc in what is called the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis…which accounts for the chronic fatigue. And like all opiates, methadone down-regulates opiate receptors in the human body thus the long lasting aches and pains associated with withdrawal. Methadone withdrawal is particularly insidious because, left untreated; these symptoms can last literally for months. Also the longer you are on methadone the more profound these changes in body and mind function.

4) Regardless of the level you decrease the dose before quitting…you will suffer some level of withdrawal…Frankly, I’ve never been able to discern much difference in the withdrawal intensity between 1 mg or 80 mg…it’s always difficult. The withdrawal is unique to each individual…I’ve had some come off 65 mg or more, and while uncomfortable, hardly seem to break a sweat. Others coming off low doses and be in pure agony. One must treat the individual, not the disease.



Nutritional treatment is essential in the recovery and withdrawal phase of any type of drug or alcohol dependency. To clarify nutritional treatment, consider the following statement:

The body on methadone, or any other mind altering drug or alcohol, is like the house that has been damaged in a storm. If you were repairing the house what building materials would you need? You would need lumber, sheet rock, shingles, and etc for the major supplies…these are the equivalent of the bodies need for protein, carbohydrates, and fats. How would you hold everything together?…nuts and bolts, nails, and screws—these are the equivalent of the bodies need for vitamins and minerals. To make the repairs we need the proper tools to cut the lumber and fit it into place…one would need the saws, the equivalent of the bodies production of enzymes…these are made from the proteins we eat…one can draw analogy after analogy to explain the necessity for nutritional treatment to facilitate one back to health…only one thing needs to be clearly understood…you put back into the body the things it needs to come back to health.


"

2nd part.....



Any nutritional therapy should be adhered to for at least 90 to 180 days regardless of how you feel. Just like it takes time to alter profoundly the body’s biochemistry with drugs…it takes time to repair with proper nutrition. Oral nutrition is best but often is difficult for those in their first week of detox and recovery. Proteins, complex carbs, and essential fatty acids are necessary building blocks for repair and return of proper function of organ systems and brain neurochemistry. Vitamins and minerals are “co-factors and co-enzymes” which work on the building blocks to do repair and rebuilding. Additionally, it is always counter-productive to move from the complex to the simple…my philosophy is to start simple and move to the level of complexity that works for you…remember all patients are unique in the way they process nutrients and in their ability to maximize therapy. For more information on these necessary supplements go to www.happydestinysupplements.com

The following I suggest for those who wish to detox out-patient:



1) Pharmaceuticals: Clonidine 0.1, or 0.2 mg, twice to three times per day. Clonidine is an anti-hypertensive medication that is commonly utilized in opiate withdrawal syndromes. You must come off this medicine slowly—rebound hypertension may occur…especially if you already have high blood pressure…this medication is non-addicting; Vistaril 50-100mg…three times daily…this is a sedating antihistamine which helps with anxiety and sleep…down side is that after 10 days or so it loses its therapeutic efficacy; phenergan 25 mg tab…one every 6 hours for nausea and cramps. I may use these medications on my out/in-patient clients depending on the severity of symptoms. Imodium A/D works well for diarrhea.

2) Intra-Venous Nutritional therapy: In patient or out-patient…typically every day for the first 5-6 days, than every other day until the symptomology has subsided. These nutrient bags can contain proteins, vitamins, electrolytes, and other elements necessary for the body-mind to heal. The advantage of IV therapy is that all essential cofactors bypass compromised gut function. Only when the healing occurs will the symptoms of withdrawal disappear totally. Diarrhea is uncommon in those that receive IV nutrient therapy…but for those not so fortunate, Imodium A-D seems to work well in most. If your are a medical professional and wish I.V. treatment protocols contact me at thesourcenmc@msn.com

3) Oral nutrition: Increase the right proteins!!!! Proteins are the building blocks for neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter receptors…as well as the building blocks for your natural opiate receptors

· For 3 weeks you must remove all red meats from your diet. Red meat has chemical components that increase inflammation and pain. Fish, chicken, eggs are good sources of protein. If you are having a hard time taking in solid foods go to a health food store and buy protein powders that can be made into smoothies or drinks. You absolutely must have increased protein intake…proteins are the building blocks for all enzymes, neurotransmitters, and enzyme receptors in the body. No chemical works in the body without receptors. Just like opioids have to have opioid receptors—which are down regulated during methadone use—this is the reason people have long-lasting pain and aggravation coming off methadone…this isn’t much of a problem with heroin use because of it’s short half-life…proteins are essential for the repair work in recovery…I now use a formulation made by Neuroresearch…their Neuroreplete/D-5 protein formulas works well for those coming off of methadone, methamphetamines and benzodiazepines or any drug for that matter…for more information on this product go to www.neuroresearch.com or www.neuroreplete.com and try to find a doctor close to you that will help you get his product…in fact I treat all my methadone withdrawal patients with this formula

· L-Methionine—a sulfur bearing amino acid…necessary for the production of S-Adenosyl-methionine (SAM-e)…SAM-e is a necessary cofactor in the production of the master neurotransmitters—serotonin, dopamine, adrenalin, and nor-adrenalin…this must be added to any amino acid therapy directed at rebuilding neurotransmitter production and function…500 mg—two twice per day

· Increase your intake of raw fruits and vegetables…you get little or nothing from canned foods…fresh fruits and veges are loaded with fiber which help bind and remove toxins from your body…they also normalize gut function

· Stay off candy, and other sugar heavy foods

· Drink lots of good water, green teas are good for the antioxidants and anti-inflammatory properties…no cokes or soda waters for three weeks

· When capable you must start exercising…swimming is best because it is low impact exercise…yoga…tai chi…walking daily…detoxing or otherwise…exercise is a normal component of good health

Supplements: Some need less and some more…remember the efficacy of all nutrition and supplement use is ultimately guided by your genetics…and we are all different to some degree…This is the value of seeing a good Naturopathic physician in the state you are in…The fact is that very few Medical Doctors know anything about nutrition…70%-75% of the standard medical schools in this country have absolutely no nutritional classes what-so-ever…in the other 25 %--nutrition is often a 14-20 hour block of education and this is commonly an elective…Naturopathic physicians that are educated in a medical school environment are taught nutrition extensively with the associated biochemistry.

· use the following for all types of drug and alcohol recovery….

· Multivitamin with a strong mineral component: in gel caps only…an excellent quality multivitamin is absolutely necessary…remember that vitamins and minerals are cofactors/coenzymes for repair, healing, and normal function of the body…most times I have patients double up on multivitamins for the first 3-4 weeks

· Mineral complex: see above

· Fish oils, or flax seed oil.: necessary for repair and proper function of cellular membranes…anti-inflammatory…these need to be mixed omega 3, omega 6, omega 9 oils—4000 to 6000 mg per day in split doses…although some can be purchased as liguids and mixed with your smoothies.

· If you don’t do the drinks…get proteins as free amino acids…double up

· L-Glutamine 500mg caps…at least 2000-3000 mg per day…split the dose so that your doing it at least twice per day…helps heal the gut and the building block for GABA…the primary inhibitory neurotransmitter…helps slow things down…Do not take GABA as a supplement…GABA is make in the brain…when out side the brain the molecule is to large to cross the blood brain barrier…the building block for GABA is L-Glutamine or Glutamic acid…these building blocks readily cross the blood brain barrier.

· Valarian Root 450 mg: Botanical that reduces anxiety and helps one to sleep…Kava, Jamaican Dog Wood, Lemon Balm, Avena are all nervine botanicals which can be used together or by self…I find the doses for each individual varies but typically 1000 to 1500 mg every 4 hours.

· Melatonin…dosages vary…this is a hormone released from the pinal gland in the human body at night time for sleep…this is essential for those coming off opioids…in my experience as little as 1 mg to 30 mg has been effective…do what you have to do…I’ve had addicts coming off $100.00 a day habits sleep 4 hours the first night…start low and add 3-5 mg every half-hour till sleep…research on healthy volunteers using up to 100 mg of melatonin in a single dose shows little side effects…Melatonin is also known as a very strong antioxidant with 1000 times the potency as Vit E…Take only at night when you would be going to bed at the regular time…the room must be dark…that’s the way this hormone is released in the natural state…

· Full Spectrum antioxidants: relieves inflammation and helps normalize inflammatory pathways and reduces damaging molecules (free radicals) present in the system while detoxing

· Vitamin C: 2000-3000 mg per day divided doses…

· Reduced L-Glutathione 300mg per day: Helps liver detox metabolites of methadone…Detoxing agents can be found in many products…most in combinations…
· Adrenal Support: Research has shown that methadone, and drug use in general, has profound effects on the adrenal glands. In fact, research shows that there is a profound negative effect by methadone on the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. This is why those that withdraw from methadone have protracted fatigue and problems with anxiety and insomnia. I often use freeze dried adrenal extracts in treatment with fairly good results. You’ll find these products listed under names such as Adrenal Plus, or Adrenplus…the starting dose is around 1000 mg per day in split doses.

· Milk Thistle with alpha-Lipoic Acid is one combination that I use extensively---for liver repair and detoxification…1200 to 1500 mg of milk thistle and 400 mg of lipoic acid per day in split doses

This is the basics. There is absolutely no way to eliminate all the problems associated with withdrawal from methadone...one must have a supportive environment and often with daily visits from a compassionate health care provider…This will not kill you…it will be a miserable event…what kills most is the movement back to street drugs to ward off the side effects of withdrawal. If fact, cold turkey deaths coming off opioids and methadone are rare and usually associated with other health problems, or overdosing on prescription medications…withdrawal from methadone is much less of a risk than total withdrawal from alcohol. I wish you all luck on this endeavor…My compassion and empathy goes out to you…Ultimately, I know that you can do this…after all…it has to be done.



www.dpeg.org/treatment/methadone_withdrawal.htm