Unintelligent people are afraid of intelligence.
Simple as that

No, these people aren't unintelligent. It's a combination of two things: Lack of knowledge and arrogance.

Officials lack the knowledge to know what chemicals and combinations of chemicals are dangerous. A firefighter who ran across a house or apartment with large jugs of acetone, hydrogen peroxide, and hydrochloric acid wouldn't see that as any more of a red flag than a lab with properly stored "tame" chemicals like strontium carbonate, boric acid, etc. That in and of itself isn't the main problem, though; we can't really expect all government officials to know things like this. However, they should be in touch with a knowledgeable chemist who CAN tell them what's up.

Step one of the situation here was just fine. Firefighters come across a home lab, and are a bit suspicious (as they probably should be). But step two was too far. After they determined the chemist had no malicious intent, they should have returned his chemicals and labware, simple as that. However, here's where arrogance comes into play. Officials are too arrogant to admit that they were wrong, and moreover, are too arrogant to realize that not all home chemists are druggies and terrorists.

The general public's phobia of chemicals (and their ignorance of the incredibly toxic things they expose themselves to daily) is at least partially to blame on the decline of science education, but the media is also heavily to blame here too. Fear, above all, sells. "Home chemist raided; bomb-making chemicals found!" sells a lot better than "officials release home chemist developing new adhesive, all supplies returned."

*shakes head sadly*

No, these people aren't unintelligent.

Yes, they are. Try labelling a bottle "sodium chloride" and see the reactions...


It's a combination of two things: Lack of knowledge and arrogance.

No, it's a combo of complete ignorance and fear that people can't act like adults.

For the average moron (95% of the population), everything has to be under state control since they can't think like grown ups. And even if you can prove to them what you're doing is not dangerous they'll always find the excuse that it MIGHT be dangerous.

Remember those morons who wanted to ban cold medicine because it COULD be used to make meth ? Yeh, that's 95% of the populace.

Remember those morons who wanted to ban cold medicine because it COULD be used to make meth ? Yeh, that's 95% of the populace.

PSE? That shit IS used to make meth.

PSE? That shit IS used to make meth.

Yes, by a VERY limited minority of drug addicts, who do not even equal 1% of the LEGIT sales of PSE.

OMG ! Salt could and has been used to make toxic gas ! Let's ban it !

If you can't read between the lines...

Yes, by a VERY limited minority of drug addicts, who do not even equal 1% of the LEGIT sales of PSE.

OMG ! Salt could and has been used to make toxic gas ! Let's ban it !

If you can't read between the lines...

Look back on the LT archives, or shit even back before Control of Methamphetamine Act, almost all processes for cooking meth involved PSE. Don't bullshit yourself.

Look back on the LT archives, or shit even back before Control of Methamphetamine Act, almost all processes for cooking meth involved PSE. Don't bullshit yourself.

True, but he does have a point. With the right equipment nearly everything is potentially dangerous.

True, but he does have a point. With the right equipment nearly everything is potentially dangerous.

Yeah he's right about that one, but clearly the easiest way to make meth is through PSE/Ephedrine, and the best way to stop meth production would be to restrict those products. Chlorine production isn't viewed as nearly as hazardous; not because it's less dangerous, but because it's uncommon.

This "95% of the population is retarded" act isn't going to get us anywhere. If you want to actually get something done, you're going to have to be rational, not elitist. Do you think writing a letter to a congressman that says "95% of America is retarded, so you should let me play with chemicals because I'm in the other 5%" is going to work? You have to be rational with people, and educate them about chemistry. A lot of this fear surrounding home chemistry can be undone. The rocketry community hasn't done too bad, for one.

The general population doesn't lack the intelligence for chemical awareness. Chemistry is very much like cooking. There are things you cook with that you must be careful of (boiling water, for one) and accidents DO happen. But nobody would ever support a law requiring you to get certified to cook anything more complicated than pasta. Everyone can cook. Nobody gets raided for having a well-stocked pantry.

Typical dipshit/lemming mentality.

For the average retard cop, even wet ammonium nitrate is "potentially explosive"...

i dont see cops standing around the coldpacks in the convenience stores

just cause you have the capabilities of making shit doesnt mean you will.

the chemist that got raided probably had someone complain, maybe he was acting suspect and the nighbors complained, not the first time not the last time either. the cops were probably looking for more than chemicals...like meth or something. who knows what this guy had on him, but that doesnt mean its right.

cops are cops, theyll do whatever they want. all you can do is not get caught doing nothing lol

In fact, I bet if you planted a full glassware set in someone's garage and put all of their household chemicals into bottled flasks, the cops would flip shit if they found it.

I'm willing to bet anything that this would happen.

Jeez.

Some of the profound discoveries of the scientific world were made by home chemists, hobbyists and auto-didactic inventors.

And now we arrest them..

Big labs don't have all the answers!

Thats total bullshit. It seems like any rights we had are slowly being taken away. Plus the gov. dosen't want him to make anything to upstage them, cuz they think if they are not in control, its violent.

i dont see cops standing around the coldpacks in the convenience stores

just cause you have the capabilities of making shit doesnt mean you will.

the chemist that got raided probably had someone complain, maybe he was acting suspect and the nighbors complained, not the first time not the last time either. the cops were probably looking for more than chemicals...like meth or something. who knows what this guy had on him, but that doesnt mean its right.

cops are cops, theyll do whatever they want. all you can do is not get caught doing nothing lol

If you read the article, you would have seen that the firefighters were responding to a fire in his air-conditioning unit upstairs.

Another poor victim of america's fear-mongering culture...

Why don't you cover your child in bubble-wrap, never let him get in a car and home school him so he doesn't have to leave the house?

I guess the guy could have accidently knocked some chemicals together hard enough cause a nuclear reaction. You never know right?

warweed is that message of yours for real ?

So when YOU do it, it's perfectly fine and others are just fascist assholes who don't know jack shit...

But then when you get a kid you turn right into the same type of fucker who 'knows it all better' and want to play gestapo with your neighbors because it MIGHT endanger you ?

Are you a complete hypocrite ?

It's called maturity try it some time ..

and i full out agree i should not have done it either .. i should have done it in a much safer envirment with proper control measures

It's called maturity try it some time ..


No, it's called paranoïa and media fearmongering.

Maturity doesn't mean having the right to stick your nose into people's businesses because it MAY endanger you.

As far as that bullshit mentality goes i want YOU banned from having a car because you MAY drive drunk and roll over someone; I want YOU under constant supervision or banned from owning a gas oven because you MAY forget to turn it off and blow the building up...

I don't use either, so why should you ? It potentially endangers me ! Fuck your individual freedoms, it's about my -paranoid- security !

See how far this retarded way of thinking can go ?

Milk,butter,cellphone,..everything seem SO DANGEROUS THOSE DAY...maybe we should sit down and live like plants...

Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro’s code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws.

No thinking allowed in suburban America?

No thinking allowed in suburban America?

Not unless you pay extra money to be allowed to think.

4 words: Innocent till proven guilty.

That's like taking someones clothes because they could hang someone with them. Or their keys cause they could put someones eyes out.

I'm afraid warweed is slowly becoming one of those retarded control freaks who would put cameras up everyones asses "just in case"...

Now it would really be sad if he was yet another of these 'teenage revolutionaries' who scream freedom then turn into the same pieces of shit wannabe fascist they screamed after...

Media = bullshit!

well shit. that was only a few towns over.

gazette is shit by the way.

Warweed, your logic is extremely fucked.


If I was the guy in the story, I would sue the fucking shit out of every single asshole involved, and then make it my personal mission to find dirt on every one of those cocksuckers and get THEM arrested.

I thought no warrant meant they;

a) cant search
b) cant take what they find
c) can legally be shot if they dont have a warrant and arent invited(self defence)

He was probably raided because he has the POTENTIAL to make something which may/may not endanger the "public"(government).

So he has a bunch of specialized equipment, not making drugs, not making explosives, not making biological warfare thingys, but they still raid him.....the cops gotta stop fucking around. Theres more meth labs then legal labs.

And i agree with SN. I'd sue everything that even stepped onto my property, fire fighters, cops, everyone. Personally, aswell as the department.

I just wana pop in here and add a bit to this argument....

Although it is true that no warrant was issued, the firefighters responding to an air conditioner fire would have probably gone down to were ever his electrical panel is which in this case was the basement. Even if the electrical panned was in the basement the firefighters are still basically allowed to walk into were ever they please in the house until they deem there to be no threat.

Now put yourselves into the shoes of the firefighter whom had to go down to make sure the power was shut off. Imagine having no knowledge of chemicals and walking down the basement stairs and seeing what looks like a cluster fuck of some chemical stockpile room. Hell end up telling his superior officer on scene and then that will give what ever agency is called in probable cause to search the house and examine the chemicals and the basement.

Hopefully this guy will follow with a class action suite to recuperate the unjust loss of his goods and equipment.

Also somewhere in there it also said he had a few legitimate pattents all ready running... a good thing to try to shove down their thraots if he does deside to sue...

And they haven't pressed any charges yet.... as in they've either desided to charge him later on so the media won't play over to his favore or they may just drop in if he desides not to follow through with a lawsuite...

Either way it's really fucked what they did to him considering he's a retired chemist that can't even own a few chemicals...

He was probably raided because he has the POTENTIAL to make something which may/may not endanger the "public"(government).

If that's what it takes to get raided then they might as well raid every single house in america, since everyone has what's needed to make acetone peroxide, hydrazine, and a whole fucking slew of other things. Not giving you shit, just pointing out how fucked this whole thing is.

If that's what it takes to get raided then they might as well raid every single house in america, since everyone has what's needed to make acetone peroxide, hydrazine, and a whole fucking slew of other things. Not giving you shit, just pointing out how fucked this whole thing is.

Ever tried to tell people you put sodium chloride on your meal ?

I really works...

did anyone spot this?

I did, it got me thinking.

Fucking fascists...

If that's what it takes to get raided then they might as well raid every single house in america, since everyone has what's needed to make acetone peroxide, hydrazine, and a whole fucking slew of other things. Not giving you shit, just pointing out how fucked this whole thing is.

Yeh i know....

Even the dumbest person in the world can make something "potentially" dangerous just from the stuff in their laundry cupboard....

If he was serious about his hobby he knew the dangers (regardless of how small they were) and got a permit to have said chemicals. Having vials and jars sitting on furniture is not safe, no matter how you look at it.

It is his own fault. If he had no ill intentions or didn't have anything that could be potentially dangerous, he could have simply applied for a permit.

Do you mean a zoning permit? Because that's pretty much semantics. They tore this mans house apart, and took not only his hard work (patent projects) but they ripped away a dearly loved friend, chemistry. Over fucking zoning laws.


Excessive force is excessive.

Do you mean a zoning permit? Because that's pretty much semantics. They tore this mans house apart, and took not only his hard work (patent projects) but they ripped away a dearly loved friend, chemistry. Over fucking zoning laws.


Excessive force is excessive.

I'll agree it wasn't right to do it without a warrant, however it was still dangerous (regardless of how small of a danger it posed, not all chemicals that were there have been named).

If he had patents pending and was serious about it, then getting a permit (or a zoning permit, I am not sure what you'd call it to be honest) shouldn't have been too hard for him, especially if he had no ill intentions.

Don't you think he had better things to do than fill out a load of fucking forms for some dipshit bureaucrat?

Besides it wouldn't have made any difference. They didn't raid his house because of zoning permits, they didn't even check. That only entered the equation later, when the dumb fuckers were asked to explain their actions.

His glassware and chems are probably sitting in a bag of incinerator dust right now....

The chems will be wasted, possibly in a manor posing more of a threat to the environment than they originally did... and the glassware will be auctioned off and the money will go back into the local county justice system.

Whats the difference between a guy practicing chemistry in his garage and a guy making surfboards in his garage? Or painting his garage? Or re-claming gold in his garage? Or a drunk guy driving a truck at 50mph?

and the glassware will be auctioned off and the money will go back into the local county justice system.

Then they'll raid the guy who just bought it claiming he was gonna use them for dangerous/unlawful stuff, steal it AGAIN and sell it AGAIN.

Vicious circle :D

Forgot to mention that the glassware might be used for training purposes... so that officers can identify chemistry glassware for busting up meth labs and such...

But many people use glassware everyday for legal means at home...

... Brewing/testing beer/wine/mead/vinegar/cheese/(insert fermented food here) ... hydroponic nutrient testing/formulating/adjusting ... reclaiming precious metals ... developing photographs (I predict this will become a big hobby for many as many people are switching over to digital photos) ... etching circuit boards ... bio-diesel hobbyists ... bio-mass hobbyists ... patina painters ... people who extract their own essential oils for homemade soaps, incense, etc... And those are just what I could think up off-hand.

... now why isn't learning chemistry a valid use of glassware... is it not the same as the above? THE ABOVE IS CHEMISTRY!

... now why isn't learning chemistry a valid use of glassware... is it not the same as the above? THE ABOVE IS CHEMISTRY!

Because in the mind of the average moron (meaning: just above the agerage cop IQ), chemistry itz evil !!!!

Pouring draino in your plumbing to clean it up ? No problem.

Sulfuric acid ? OH MY GOD UR TEH INSANE TERRIST !!!

Same shit, different perceptions, massive idiocy.

They didn't raid his house because of zoning permits, they didn't even check. That only entered the equation later, when the dumb fuckers were asked to explain their actions.

I wonder if the authorities were scrambling for the charge as an excuse just so they won't get shitcanned for doing what they did.

"Oh, you don't seem to be violating anything at the moment; don't worry, citizen, after we finish raiding your house, we're bound to find something!"

It's sad when things like this happen.

Hm I might as well take the position of the devil's advocate in this discourse.

While I do thoroughly agree that home experimenting should be allowed, I also believe there should be certain regulations. Now, before you jump on me let me tell you what those regulations entail.

First of all, like health codes for cooking, there needs to be safety codes for chemistry. Here would be an example of some. Essentially what I wouldn't want is something like some kid that makes 5 lb of AP and blowing his house to hell and his garage door 200 feet down the street. There was some moron that got banned from roguesci that did this about a year back, I can't find the article but it's somewhere...

Section A)
I.
All detonations of above 1.5 grams of explosive substances detonated should be constrained to ballistics glass, or a blasting case of a substance to that can contain the aforementioned detonation.
II.
An eyewash station
III.
A fire extinguisher of type ABC, at least 10MP.
You get the idea...this guy had none of these things.

Section C) Storage:
I.
No energetics stored in quantities above 500 grams within 30 feet of each other. Certain energetics are exempt from this rule.
II.
Nitroglycerin may not be stored in conditions where the temperature may be lower than 60 degrees Fahrenheit.
III.
No chlorate salt, specifically potassium chlorate may be stored for a longer period than one week, and never within the presence of sulfur salts.
IV.
No perchlorate salt shall be stored for a period exceeding 2 weeks.
V.
All hydrogen peroxide solutions of greater than 35% concentrations may not be stored within 10 feet of any organic acid. Furthermore solutions over 50% must be stored independently of any organic substance, applicable to the same rule above.
VI.
Nitric acid and sulfuric acid may not be stored in the same cabinet, or within 10 feet open space.

So, who here would consider regulations listed above unreasonable? Obviously those are not actual regulations but violating any of those listed above WILL get you hurt, WILL destroy your property, can destroy others property, etc.
There is a need for regulations but not A) on the amount of chemicals B) designations for labs.

Some of those are retarded.

KClO3 and KClO4 are stable salts and can be stored hermetically indefinatly for examble.

Your distances and amounts for storing are retarded considering the ATF has excellent rules already in place for magazine storeage. If its energetic it falls within their web of laws.

Peroxide solutions should be in strong plastic containers which are well sealed and in no danger of falling off shelfs. Distances from organics shouldn't matter.

Labs keep H2SO4 and HNO3 next to each other all the time, it doesn't matter. Keeping the acids away from the organics on the other hand does.

The guy wasn't messing with explosives, and it really didn't give much info on what he really had or didn't have there.

Silent, while your response is obviously well learned intelligent etc. you completely missed my point...

What I was trying to illustrate that certain regulations need to be in place for safety purposes. Sure, you can't go too far with it, but there has to be some brightline to freedom, it cannot be as many people here have said. My point was simply to illustrate that when reasonable, regulations can be good.

The article never specified what safety equipment, what chemicals, etc he actually had. It did say he had chemicals simply laying around on the floor...this could be cause for alarm could it not?

Silent, KCLO3/O4 decompose when NOT stored hermetically, and most people wouldn't go through the effort to vacuum and seal. After a short period (a couple of days) for the chlorate, more time for the perchlorate it becomes rather unstable and VERY friction sensitive. I have a coffee table with a rather large hole in it that can attest to this.
I was under the impression that labs were not supposed to keep sulfuric near nitric, seeing as how the label of both says to keep away from the other. They form NOx when mixed...the distances were just so that if one is knocked over etc the spills wouldn't be quite so horrible.
You'd be surprised the things I've seen high conc. H2O2 stored in...

You and I are in mutual agreement about the lack of information however. I just try to stem the flow of reverse-sheep...those who simply hate the government because the peers say they who follow it are sheep...rather paradoxical.

Sorry, but no... chlorate and perchlorate are stable and don't decompose markedly. Hence their continued use in fireworks. You do not need to vacuum seal them, most people do seal them well in a ziplock bag or similar simply to keep them from moisture... which won't hurt them either, but it will allow them to draw a bit of moisture from the air and clump up... which is just a minor pain when working with them... run them through a screen and they are good to go... They are both fine to use in compositions too... obviously observing incompatibilities, especially with chlorate. Now if you think that either of them will become friction sensitive and decompose over time without any available fuels... I'd have to say you need to go back to the books.

If your talking about in compositions... chlorate is very sensitive to acids... this is common knowledge... and when people make chlorate compositions... if they know what they are doing they add a small amount of a non-hygroscopic weak base like a carbonate, and if possible bind the stars using a solvent and some resin that will pretty much seal the resulting stars from moisture. But really chlorates are mostly only still used in mexico / south america and malta... Some hobbiests still use them... but its considerably more rare... The exclusion of sulfur, antimony, phosphorus, and their related compounds from chlorate containing compositions makes them much more stable. Sulfur generally has traces of acid in it. Even very low acid very pure sulfur will form small amounts of acid with moisture and air. Chlorate along with finly divided metal powder fuel is always dangerous. Bind it into a star and its much less reactive.

Perchlorates are quite a bit less sensitive, and can be used with sulfur generally... Though they are still somewhat more sensitive than most people realize. However perchlorate compositions without sulfur are quite stable... If they weren't... fireworks would have a stated shelf life... I probably still have a few of my first cut stars from 3 or so years ago... and actually they are just stored in a little plastic tub... the lid isn't even air tight... Violet Shimizu #2 I think... KClO4/red gum/strontium carbonate/copper oxide/parlon/dextrin... ish... They still burn the same.

Stars will degrade over time true... but generally its the oxidizer oxidizing or "rusting" any metallic fuels... depleting them... Making it all less reactive. Sometimes this is more prevelant than others... Like with KNO3 and aluminum... which can be somewhat moisture sensitive and should be buffered with a small amount of boric acid... however KNO3 is a much safer oxidizer... storing stars with KNO3, C, S, and Al (like glitter compositions) ... is no problem... sure they might not look as spectacular 1 year later... but they certainly aren't getting more sensitive... The immediate danger is when they are first made and drying out... their can be a small run-away reaction thats moisture driven and can ignite them... but the boric acid prevents it and once they are dry just put them in a ziplock bag and they are fine.

Your either talking about a particular composition... probably some flash composition... which is more dangerous than most people think it is already... or you perhaps melted some oxidizer by itself ontop of a table and watched it burn though? As chlorate, perc, nitrate, etc would normally do.

"Reasonable" varies. An average citizen who knows nothing of chemistry has a very different view on chemicals than a chemist. Yes, some regulation is good. But much of it doesn't make sense. Pyrex and hotplates are illegal to own in texas without permit... yet so many people own coffee makers... And simply owning some chemicals can give the cops the right to search your property regardless of if you know anything about them... No self respecting mom doesn't keep acetone, drain openers, peroxide, isopropyl alcohol, iodine tincture, bleach, and ammonia on hand... So it turns into a law of convience for the cops giving them the right to bust who they feel like busting.

They form NOx when nitrating things... some companies that do alot of nitrating... actually mix them and dispense them from big carboys... There is an initial heatup... but hell mixing just about anything with H2SO4 will result in heat... Most labs just have 1 acid cabinet and store them both in their along with HCl and HBr... then store any organic acids in another cabinet... or on shelves if they are harmless enough. I don't feel distance is really needed in this case... I'd like to see those plastic covered glass jugs required though to reduce chance of spilling when something breaks...

Ah, I was for some reason thinking of the sulfur-chlorate compositions which DO decompose rapidly. It happened a long time ago when I was "smart" enough to actually attempt the S+KCLO3 "composition."

Obviously you did understand my point, I was just posting it for the benefit of those who believe that no regulations whatsoever should be in place.

Hm I was under the impression that Nitric and Sulfuric reacted with the air when mixed forming NO2- at the very least...
EDIT: After doing a bit more research, apparently if the 2 acids are at a certain temp or higher (couldn't find the specific temp) it will break the HNO3 into H+NOx...
That could be pretty bad...