Qur'an and Self-Reference

[negz]

This isn't the first time I have read about such patterns in the Qur'an. I have read the bit about the # of days and the # of months before. I also remember reading about the number of times water is mentioned. And the number of times earth is mentioned. Adding them both up, water makes up ~70%, more or less the amount the it cover's on this planet.

http://members.aol.com/silence004/godel.htm

Anyways, thoughts?

If I got both my hands (2) and shoved them up my ass (1 anus) I would find I had half as many anus as I had hands. Coincidentally I don't believe the 1/2 of the crap you're telling me. I crap at 9 am every morning and if I replace the "a" with it's corresponding number (1) and duplicate it by how many hands I have (2), you get 9-11!!

[Rust]

Originally Posted by negz

Anyways, thoughts?

Yes: Pure bullshit.

By their ridiculous reasoning, they've just given me a handbook on how to fake divine inspiration! According to their ridiculous argument, if a work of writing possess those characteristics (i.e. the supposed consistency in the work) then that's evidence or proof that it was divinely inspired; as such, they've just given me a step-by step guide to fake such a thing! Either "consistency" or "patterns" aren't indicative of divine inspiration, or any writing I make based on their guidelines was inspire by Allah!

[negz]

Originally Posted by Rust

Yes: Pure bullshit.

By their ridiculous reasoning, they've just given me a handbook on how to fake divine inspiration! According to their ridiculous argument, if a work of writing possess those characteristics (i.e. the supposed consistency in the work) then that's evidence or proof that it was divinely inspired; as such, they've just given me a step-by step guide to fake such a thing! Either "consistency" or "patterns" aren't indicative of divine inspiration, or any writing I make based on their guidelines was inspire by Allah!

What are the chances of people attempting to fake this particular divine inspiration with such precision 1400 years ago?

From: http:../../19.org/index.php@id=14,31,0,0,1,0

The first verse, i.e., the opening statement "Bismillahirrahmanirrahim", shortly "Basmalah," consists of 19 Arabic letters.

The first word of Basmalah, Ism (name), withouth conraction, occurs in the Quran 19 times.

The second word of Basmalah, Allah (God) occurs 2698 times, or 19x142.

The third word of Basmalah, Rahman (Gracious) occurs 57 times, or 19x3.

The fourth word of Basmalah, Rahim (Merciful) occurs 114 times, or 19x6.

Although this phenomenon (the opening statement consists of 19 letters, and each word occurs in multiple of 19) represents a minute portion of the code, it was described by Martin Gardner in the Scientific American as "ingenious" (September, 1981, p. 22-24)

The multiplication factors of the words of the Basmalah (1+142+3+6) add up to 152 or 19x8.

The Quran consists of 114 chapters, which is 19x6.

The total number of verses in the Quran including all unnumbered Basmalahs is 6346, or 19x334. If you add the digits of that number, 6+3+4+6 equals 19.

The Basmalah occurs 114 times, (despite its conspicuous absence from chapter 9, it occurs twice in chapter 27) and 114 is 19x6.

From the missing Basmalah of chapter 9 to the extra Basmalah of chapter 27, there are precisely 19 chapters.

The occurrence of the extra Basmalah is in 27:30. The number of the chapter and the verse add up to 57, or 19x3.

Each letter of the Arabic alphabet corresponds to a number according to their original sequence in the alphabet. The Arabs were using this system for calculations. When the Quran was revealed 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. A universal system was used where the letters of the Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek alphabets were used as numerals. The number assigned to each letter is its "Gematrical Value." The numerical values of the Arabic alphabet are shown below: [the table is omitted]

A study on the gematrical values of about 120 attributes of God which are mentioned in the Quran, shows that only four attributes have gematrical values which are multiples of 19. These are "Wahid" (One), "Zul Fadl al Azim" (Possessor of Infinite Grace), "Majid" (Glorous), "Jaami" (Summoner). Their gematrical value are 19 , 2698, 57, and 114 respectively, which are all divisible by 19 and correspond exactly to the frequencies of occurrence of the Basmalah's four words.

The total numbers of verses where the word "Allah" (God) occurs, add up to 118123, and is 19x6217.

The total occurrences of the word Allah (God) in all the verses whose numbers are multiples of 19 is 133, or 19x7.

The key commandment: "You shall devote your worship to God alone" (in Arabic "Wahdahu") occurs in 7:70; 39:45; 40:12,84; and 60:4. The total of these numbers adds up to 361, or 19x19.

The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon that is not found in any other book: 29 chapters are prefixed with "Quranic Initials" which remained mysterious for 1406 years. With the discovery of the code 19, we realized their major role in the Quran's%20mathematical%20structure.%20the%20initials%20occur%20in%20their%20respective%20chapters%20in%20multiples%20of%2019.%20for%20example,%20chapter%2019%20has%20five%20letters%20in%20its%20beginning,%20k.h.y.a'.SS., and the total occurrence of these letters in this chapter is 798, or 19x42.

To witness the details of the miracle of these initials, a short chapter which begins with one initial, letter "Q", will be a good example. The frequency of "Q" in chapter 50 is 57, or 19x3. The letter "Q" occurs in the other Q-initialed chapter, i.e., chapter 42, exactly the same number of times, 57. The total occurrence of the letter "Q" in the two Q-initialed chapters is 114, which equals the number of chapters in the Quran. The description of the Quran as "Majid" (Glorious) is correlated with the frequency of occurrence of the letter "Q" in each of the Q-initialed chapters. The word "Majid" has a gematrical value of 57. Chapter 42 consists of 53 verses, and 42+53 is 95, or 19x5. Chapter 50 consists of 45 verses, and 50+45 is 95, or 19x5.

The Quran mentions 30 different cardinal numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.

In addition to 30 cardinal numbers, the Quran contains 8 fractions: 1/10, 1/8, 1/6, 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3. Thus, the Quran contains 38 (19x2) different numbers. The total of fractions is approximately 2.

If we write down the number of each verse in the Quran, one next to the other, preceded by the number of verses in each chapter, the resulting long number consists of 12692 digits (19x668). Additionally, the huge number itself is also a multiple of 19.

A book I'm in the middle of reading: http:../../www.simetrikkitap.com/index.php@lang=en

[Rust]

Originally Posted by negz

What are the chances of people attempting to fake this particular divine inspiration with such precision 1400 years ago?

Such precision? Where the hell did you get "precision" from? Precision requires a comparison between failure and success. These examples you give are examples of "success" (success you get to define mind you - because you get to add a new rule whenever it conviniences you - for example you can choose to work with the number of syllables or not, you can choose to work with the number of letters or not, you can choose to work with the letters and their position in the alphabet or not, ad nausem) they conviniently fail to mention where the quran fails when apply those patterns (or of proving it does not).

So the odds are very good that a book which you choose to investigate with criteria you choose and that belongs to a group of people and a time where numerology was of great interest, would produce good numerological results.

I myself take my Divine Inspiration from more modern texts. Clearly Herman Melville, peace be upon him, was Divinely Inspired. I mean... What are the odds that his text would predict numerous assasinations?

[negz]

Originally Posted by Rust

Such precision? Where the hell did you get "precision" from? Precision requires a comparison between failure and success. These examples you give are examples of "success" (success you get to define mind you - because you get to add a new rule whenever it conviniences you - for example you can choose to work with the number of syllables or not, you can choose to work with the number of letters or not, you can choose to work with the letters and their position in the alphabet or not, ad nausem) they conviniently fail to mention where the quran fails when apply those patterns (or of proving it does not).

I'm sorry, the term I should have used was "a book that has incorporated all these factors with such precision." Precision because a missing line, an out of order chapter, even a missing word would not only render the claims in the first article false, but also the research by a completely different person (who by the way was killed by the same people that would have interest in such a verification because what he discovered was a threat to the current "Islamic" establishment).

Maybe you can point out some supposed failures.

So the odds are very good that a book which you choose to investigate with criteria you choose and that belongs to a group of people and a time where numerology was of great interest, would produce good numerological results.

The criteria is numbers. Each Arab alphabet has a numerical value.

The book isn't about numerology. Numbers are merely being used to verify it's authenticity from the time it was written till now. If it was tampered with, the pattern would be lost. Of course this doesn't prove that it was divinely inspired, but I still don't see people/Mohd coming up with something like this in the 25 odd supposed years of his prophethood.

I would go as far as to say that the qur'an has an organic feel to it.

For more on Arabic root structure, check out: http:../../www.studyquran.co.uk/qwiar.htm

I myself take my Divine Inspiration from more modern texts. Clearly Herman Melville, peace be upon him, was Divinely Inspired. I mean... What are the odds that his text would predict numerous assasinations?

I see crossword puzzles. There is barely any consistency in the number of rows and columns.

Peace be with you, brother Rust.