totse.com | Problems With the Administration

Toraton · #1 $Add Infraction for Toraton$ 2008-07-09, 19:20

There are some problems with the totse administration. I'll let this letter and chat log speak for itself.

First, the letter; I wrote this letter to Jeff a couple months ago. I emailed it and never received a response. I'd like to share it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter to Jeff

Jeff Hunter:

You know me as Toraton on the &TOTSE BBS; I know that I do not have the best rapport with you due to my earlier actions, but I'd like for you to read and consider this anyhow.

Ever since the transition to VBulletin, the Mods & Admins forum has given me a greater sense of &TOTSE's core values overall. I believe the core values to be (in no particular order):

- Knowledge & Learning
- Anonymity
- Freedom of Speech

That said, I don't think that the current administration staff, with some notable exceptions, has &TOTSE's core values in mind. In my pursuit of becoming a helpful and supportive moderator, I have seen more than a few injustices. Let me raise a few examples.

Recently, a member has returned to the Lab Tips forum; he is called 'Jam'. You may have seen the copious amount of back and forth this topic has received. This poster is notorious for posting misinformation, however, I believe that misinformation is covered by &TOTSE's core values. Members should not believe everything they read and I think you would agree. I expect that a moderator would criticize the poster, but the moderator in question (stupid noob) has decided to infract and thus temporarily ban the user.

The injustice doesn't end here; in IRC, I was privy to a discussion between stupid noob and acidmelt, where acidmelt decided the correct course of action to be a permanent ban on the user. Unfortunately, his reasons presented on IRC had little to do with the user's actions on the BBS. acidmelt reasoned that outside of &TOTSE, the user had supplied the personal information (gained from &TOTSE) to the police; this resulted in their arrest.

While I don't support his supplying the police with other users' info, I don't think this is against BBS policy. What IS against policy is to post personal information; yours or otherwise.

To top it all off, this is water under the bridge; the user did this long ago and now, years later, he has been permanently banned for taking no further actions. I would call this unjust.

acidmelt has taken on an attitude of "I will do whatever I want because I have the power to"; unfortunately, this has resulted in many users being banned for absolutely no reason. As a lowly moderator, I would never have the gall to recommend that he be removed, especially after so many years of good service to the BBS. However, I think it would be prudent for you to talk to him and find out why he has adopted this attitude. The BBS does not benefit from his maligned dictatorship.

Zok, on the other hand, is cool headed and understanding; I think he does a phenomenal job with administration. I know that Zok relies on acidmelt to do the "dirty work", in a sense, because Zok avoids conflict at every chance. He suggested that I email you, actually, because he was frustrated with the situation.

I think that if you should contact Zok, he would agree that sometimes acidmelt takes things too far.

I ask that you please overlook my past mistakes, if only to take a good look at the current state of the BBS. If you find nothing wrong with acidmelt's actions, I would love to hear about it; perhaps I have misjudged &TOTSE and what it tries to be.

Sincerely,
Josiah Purtlebaugh
Toraton on &TOTSE BBS

Phew. Now, I'll post a conversation I had with Zok tonight:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conversation with Zok

<toraton> Okay, so I don't want to be all dramatic, but I want to communicate with you so you know what is up; I am quitting totse. Before you ask why, I'll tell you that acidmelt and Meta are entirely to blame. When I leave, I will choose two mods for T&T and one for MMM.
<toraton> I realized that I was only on totse because I wanted to fix it.
<toraton> It cannot be fixed.
<toraton> The problem is at the top.
<toraton> If you want me around, you petition Jeff to remove acidmelt.
<toraton> Or you back me up when I do it.
<toraton> I don't mean to dump this on you
<toraton> You're my friend, I'm tired of being part of a shitty community
<toraton> I want to stay friends with you and I'll be posting on zoklet instead.
<toraton> I will be spending the next few days considering it
<toraton> At least until I pick new mods.
<zok> You have no idea how heart broken I am

<zok> What exactly with acidmelt/meta?
<toraton> I don't like that acidmelt thinks he is above the rules and I don't like how Meta is his little spy.
<toraton> I mean, last night he bitched out kate for something she didn't do then refused to apologize
<toraton> He has banned users because they wronged him in some non-bbs fashion
<toraton> I don't think I'm spending enough time on the boards, either
<toraton> It has become a chore to post, at times
<toraton> I knew you'd be sad :/
<toraton> I just wanted to be honest about the whole situation
<toraton> If we can make something work, I'll stay on in some capacity
<toraton> Maybe only modding Hello World
<toraton> or something silly
<toraton> But totse is so broken I think
<toraton> acidmelt runs the show and has no respect for the actual ideas
<toraton> If we speak out against him, I'm sure he'd de-mod me.
<toraton> He has already threatened to do so.
<toraton> Maybe I can't cope with the authority
<toraton> As stupid as this is, I do not want to cause you drama or whatever
<toraton> Which is why I didn't announce anything
<toraton> I've spoken to you and #codelove and that is it
<toraton> Maybe I take totse too seriously, but no matter what I'm no longer fit to mod
<toraton> At least, not so many forums
<toraton> I think I'm a positive effect on totse, but I cannot think of any way to have that effect without actively modding
<toraton> And, I dunno if he'd want me saying this, but lifejunkie agreed with me
<toraton> I mean, I think the only I'm still around is cause I like you
<toraton> He left two days after he and I discussed acidmelt and totse in general
<toraton> Jeff runs an absentee dictatorship, allowing the two admins to do as they please
<toraton> You do a great job
<toraton> acidmelt is a loose cannon
<toraton> He makes the rules and isn't bound to them
<toraton> he doesn't respect you, or me, or totse, or anything
<toraton> So what's the point?
<toraton> I want to make my own community without that
<toraton> I used to be a loose cannon, but I calmed down; now I'm just tired of dealing with him.
<toraton> Tired of saying, "yes sir, I'll follow your stupid rule"
<toraton> He pops in once a month, bans some folks, and leaves
<zok> I agree with you on a lot of those points - and a lot of those points are reasons I've been questioning whether or not I should stay myself
<zok> But I also think that if you really feel this way, these things *need* to be said
<zok> If it were up to me and I were in your shoes, I would copy and paste this whole chatlog into M&A
<zok> Because the way you just explained it to me made a lot of sense
<zok> I couldn't have summarized some of those things better myself

Before this is construed as mere hate, I want to explain a couple things:

Meta and I get along fine; well even. The only time we don't get along is when Meta is following one of acidmelt's corrupt rules. Meta and I could exist peacefully and for the most part, we do. So let this not count as a strike against Meta, but perhaps a mark in his favor; he is ultimately loyal to the administration.
As of the beginning of the conversation with Zok, I plan on leaving totse; it is beyond hope and without help.

Thanks for reading.

AngryFemme · #2 $Add Infraction for AngryFemme$ 2008-07-09, 20:16

What an eye-opener - thanks for posting all that. I didn't know that Jeff Hunter even accepted e-mails from moderators!

Thirteen views to this thread and this is the first reply. What does that tell you, Toraton? I think it can be interpreted in one of two ways:

1) Many moderators agree with you, but aren't going to reply for fear of incurring acidmelt's wrath, or -

2) Many moderators disagree with you, but aren't going to reply for fear of getting on the wrong side of Zok.

I'm going with the former.

ArgonPlasma2000 · #3 $Add Infraction for ArgonPlasma2000$ 2008-07-09, 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryFemme View Post

What an eye-opener - thanks for posting all that. I didn't know that Jeff Hunter even accepted e-mails from moderators!

Thirteen views to this thread and this is the first reply. What does that tell you, Toraton? I think it can be interpreted in one of two ways:

1) Many moderators agree with you, but aren't going to reply for fear of incurring acidmelt's wrath, or -

2) Many moderators disagree with you, but aren't going to reply for fear of getting on the wrong side of Zok.

I'm going with the former.

Honestly, I don't even know what to say, much less who's side to take. (I generally am speechless on such occasions.) I don't know much at all about the levels above me, and what squabbles they have. Hell, I don't know much at all about any of you. All I can identify with is acidmelt is rarely around. It does sadden me not only that Toraton and Zok have leaving on their minds, but also that we have quite a crisis on our hands. Loads of mods are jumping ship, and contensions are left unresolved between parts of the chain of command.

Reevaluation of priorities in carrying out our services is most decidedly in order.

Zok · #4 2008-07-09, 20:41

Toraton, I want you to know that I really don't want you to leave. I've always valued your opinions because you always have the user in mind. I've never known you to do anything for self gain.

There's no question about it, Acidmelt gets shit done. There have been many times that he has stepped in when I was unable, unwilling, or unavailable to make a decision. But at the same time I often get the feeling that he, "He pops in once a month, bans some folks, and leaves." Because there has been more than one time that I've been stuck dealing with the aftermath after that happens (more so on IRC than on the BBS). Now by no means would I ever, ever equate him to MomentaryLapseOfReason - he is far more reasonable, responsible, and above all sane than MLoR was or ever will be - but I have seen similarities in the random acts of bannage.

There are often times more work for me to do because people A) don't want to approach him or B) don't know who he is because he's had less than 50 posts this year (I don't actually know that, I'm guessing). I know he's been making a stronger effort to be around more often and I've seen that - he has been around a lot more in the last few weeks than he used to be. But people not wanting to approach someone because they fear they'll just be dismissed or banned for longer? There have been a number of times (yes, on IRC) that someone's ban length has been increased because they were rude or impolite to him while asking why they were banned. Or they were banned for being rude or insulting in the first place. Granted, the people were quite rude and I probably would have been just as put off, but this is a job for the thick skinned. I mean, we're babysitting a website/chatroom full of 14 year olds - what do you expect?

Anyway, that's just what has been on my mind in the last few days - entirely uncensored. I might regret saying some of this later, but I think I should be honest about how I feel. Ever since lifejunkie left I've been thinking about these things. So read what I've said and take from it what you will - just don't take anything to heart.

acidmelt · #5 2008-07-09, 20:41

ok let me retort motherfucker. i have always and will always back up and protect the users of totse. Jam not only handed over information to the police from totse but got THREE of our good hearted members thrown in prison. The smallest sentence was 10 years. Sometimes being an admin means taking OTHER actions into consideration. If I HADNT banned him he would have continued sending our members that slightly break the law sometimes to prison. I will not let this happen. If I need to provide proof that he did this I easily can. however I HAVENT cause it would mean revealing names/addresses of certain penople INCLUDING jam. I didnt want this to have to happen. And I certainly wouldnt do it for you. I ban people for a reason and ALWAYS for a reason. Whether you agree with it or not doesnt mean a fuck to me. And YES i do have to do the dirty work around here. And I dont mind it in the least. Me and Zok work together wonderfully because of this. We are opposites and we even eachother out. Its always been this way. And if Jeff thinks from you post that I ban everyone for no reason I would BEG him to look at how many bans I have made lately. I am very even headed about the whole situation. But if it comes down to people getting sent to fucking prison over something they post on totse..... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN WHILE IM HERE. End of fucking story. FUCK OFF TORATON/.

Metaphysicist · #6 2008-07-09, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryFemme View Post

What an eye-opener - thanks for posting all that. I didn't know that Jeff Hunter even accepted e-mails from moderators!

Thirteen views to this thread and this is the first reply. What does that tell you, Toraton? I think it can be interpreted in one of two ways:

1) Many moderators agree with you, but aren't going to reply for fear of incurring acidmelt's wrath, or -

2) Many moderators disagree with you, but aren't going to reply for fear of getting on the wrong side of Zok.

I'm going with the former.

Actually there is a third choice, and I think most Mods fit into it:

Those who really don't care either way.

I'm not saying this to be an ass or smart mouth. I think it is the truth.

And thanks for that last part, Tor. If you hadn't said something I was ready to point out to people that you and I get along well on a personal level - proof that people can hold to opposite views on important things and yet still be quite friendly to each other.

And Zok, to be fair: You are one who is always saying that IRC has nothing to do with the boards and so I think you bringing up his actions in IRC is unfair.

Just my opinion...

acidmelt · #7 2008-07-09, 20:53

and as zok said after every paragraph -- " (IN IRC)". Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with in here. And if we want to talk about who gets the shit end of the stick on making decisions here we can definelty do that. Like I said I dont mind doing it because you dont want to, but I certainly wont be accused of shit when Im the only one that gets stuck with the decisions that mean everyone is going to hate me.

AngryFemme · #8 $Add Infraction for AngryFemme$ 2008-07-09, 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphysicist View Post

Actually there is a third choice, and I think most Mods fit into it:

Those who really don't care either way.

I can't bring myself to imagine that the bulk of the current mod roster just wouldn't give a shit about administration issues that might affect the entire community.

I didn't mean it to suggest that one has to "pick a side", because having very little personal interaction with either one of them prohibits me from doing just that. But airing opinions is something the mods have never been shy about doing here - and I just found it peculiar that the views outnumbered the replies, in this instance.

The fact that Zok has entertained the thought of leaving Totse is srs bsns, IMO. He's vital to this community in more ways than I think even he gives himself credit for.

Zok · #9 2008-07-09, 21:02

And while we're airing grievances towards the admins, I feel like I should also send a short message Jeff's way.

Jeff this is my only beef with you: I think we need to go through the rules on the site again. Since they were written we've come across dozens of technicalities. This was never a problem in the past, because a lot of the elements that bring on these technicalities didn't exist back when the rules were written. For instance, we never had a problem with people from totse going to other websites and spamming their forums/communities with totse's name. Nowadays we have problems with people collecting personal info on totse members, posting it off site (on their own website) and linking to it on totse. There is no rule against posting pointless or meaningless threads (for instance: threads whose entire content is a link to another thread). A lot of forums have "forum specific rules" - better living through chemistry has a rule against posting Rx sources and online sellers. Nowhere in the rules does it say that some forums might have separate rules. Or rule #1 - Thou shalt not grief thy administrator. Who is that? I know Jeff is in that category. Does that extend to the rest of the mods? Only the forum admins? Only Jeff?

Now this was never a problem in the past, but now we seem to have a forum full of rules lawyers. If these things were part of the rules then it would be a lot easier to enforce without hearing "well, it never said in the rules that I can't post a wall of goatse pictures!" Because of these technicalities, moderators are enforcing the rules differently in each forum since nobody really knows what constitutes what.

There are a lot of decisions that only the site owner can make and I would really like to see some get made...

In short (with a clever analogy): The US constitution was written to govern a nation of less than one million. Since then, the population has exploded, many things have changed over the times, and new problems/solutions were introduced. Luckily for our nation, we've been adding amendments to the constitution to keep up with the times. I think totse might need to do the same.

I think this post and my last sum up my frustrations with totse.

ArgonPlasma2000 · #10 $Add Infraction for ArgonPlasma2000$ 2008-07-09, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidmelt View Post

ok let me retort motherfucker. i have always and will always back up and protect the users of totse. Jam not only handed over information to the police from totse but got THREE of our good hearted members thrown in prison. The smallest sentence was 10 years. Sometimes being an admin means taking OTHER actions into consideration. If I HADNT banned him he would have continued sending our members that slightly break the law sometimes to prison. I will not let this happen. If I need to provide proof that he did this I easily can. however I HAVENT cause it would mean revealing names/addresses of certain penople INCLUDING jam. I didnt want this to have to happen. And I certainly wouldnt do it for you. I ban people for a reason and ALWAYS for a reason. Whether you agree with it or not doesnt mean a fuck to me. And YES i do have to do the dirty work around here. And I dont mind it in the least. Me and Zok work together wonderfully because of this. We are opposites and we even eachother out. Its always been this way. And if Jeff thinks from you post that I ban everyone for no reason I would BEG him to look at how many bans I have made lately. I am very even headed about the whole situation. But if it comes down to people getting sent to fucking prison over something they post on totse..... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN WHILE IM HERE. End of fucking story. FUCK OFF TORATON/.

I'd definitely agree with this. But I would have a question, do each of you (Zok and acidmelt) have transparency over ban reasons? Because I sure as hell can't just look this up, can I? If we had known this all along no one should be butthurt about it.

Zok · #11 2008-07-09, 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphysicist View Post

And Zok, to be fair: You are one who is always saying that IRC has nothing to do with the boards and so I think you bringing up his actions in IRC is unfair.

I entirely agree, it shouldn't have any bearing - and I didn't mean to use that as ammo against anyone. I just thought it would help to articulate my point about how situations are often handled and how some users feel about coming to him for help or to negotiate a ban.

Metaphysicist · #12 2008-07-09, 21:11

I got to go with Acid on this one too. Yes, Acid is a bit to the extreme. But Zok is to the other extreme. They are like the Yin & Yang of totse and they compliment each other very well.

But you can't fault Acid for being extreme the way he is without also getting on Zok for his extreme, which is almost a fear of confrontation. A good example of what I am talking about is the Military forum. There was so much argument about that that Zok couldn't/wouldn't make a decision. He flat out said he'd just wait for Acid to make a decision, which he did.

And there is no problem with that - I am NOT getting down on Zok at all. You can't run a place like totse with someone like Acid without someone like Zok - and you can't do it with someone like Zok without someone like Acid either. And that's my point. To complain about Acid and not Zok - or vice versa - is unfair.

Acid has a bit of a rep, I admit. But in large part it is much like my rep: Way blown out of proportion. One guy - like Xavier/Gefunct - gets banned by Acid for a valid reason. Yet when he comes back he goes off about what he calls an unfair ban and others start to pick up on that.

Another way he gets an unfair rep is that some of those he bans are ones Zok doesn't want to deal with for the confrontation that could come of it. So AM gets most of the very vocal bitchers [That's not to say Zok won't ban one if they very obviously break a rule, as evidenced by his ban[s] of DaGuru. And again: I'm not getting down on you Zok, and I hope you know that. And there's pretty much nothing here that I haven't said myself to Zok either. So it's not like I am springing this on him...I hope].

I'm just saying, before anyone wants to try an fault AM for doing his job the way he does, to look at the whole picture of things...

AngryFemme · #13 $Add Infraction for AngryFemme$ 2008-07-09, 21:20

Quote:

IRC has nothing to do with the boards

Let's be real here. IRC has A LOT to do with the boards. They may not be governed by the same set of posting rules, but #totse houses the same guests that Totse does, and it's common knowledge that the fastest, easiest way to reach a lot of the mods and the two admins is via IRC. It's not at all unusual that at least some wheeling and dealing goes down in IRC. To try to completely quarantine the two from each other is ridiculous.

Metaphysicist · #14 2008-07-09, 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryFemme View Post

I can't bring myself to imagine that the bulk of the current mod roster just wouldn't give a shit about administration issues that might affect the entire community.

I based what I said on the natural cynicism that one can get after 44 years. But I also based it in large part on the fact that a good 70-80% of all Mods never even come here. From that I figure they are more interested in their littler corner of totse than totse as a whole, and it's politics.

And Zok, I pretty much agree with what you said about rules and would like to add/expand on a thing or two. One thing is that the rules were not made with infractions and temp bans in mind. People keep throwing the line: Users will not be deleted for content. And I have to point out that deleted mean more of a perma ban and not a 10 day ban.

The other thing is the infractions themselves. I think they need to be reexamined. It used to be that when someone posted a page stretching thread or an img of goatse that is like 5X5, we used to give the spam infraction for that. But people kept going to Jeff's definition of spam, which didn't include any of that. So we've switched to using the Defacing Totse infraction for these things. But 30 days is too much I think for such a violation.

Metaphysicist · #15 2008-07-09, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryFemme View Post

Let's be real here. IRC has A LOT to do with the boards. They may not be governed by the same set of posting rules, but #totse houses the same guests that Totse does, and it's common knowledge that the fastest, easiest way to reach a lot of the mods and the two admins is via IRC. It's not at all unusual that at least some wheeling and dealing goes down in IRC. To try to completely quarantine the two from each other is ridiculous.

I said that only because Zok is always saying that they have nothing to do with each other and won't let mention one in regards to someone in the other.

Toraton · #16 $Add Infraction for Toraton$ 2008-07-09, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphysicist View Post

I said that only because Zok is always saying that they have nothing to do with each other and won't let mention one in regards to someone in the other.

The grievances did not take place in IRC, they were merely discussed in IRC; all of the wrongdoings have taken place on the BBS. A fair share have happened in IRC, but they are mostly conflicts between moderator and admin, not admin and user.

I think Zok would agree.

I appreciate your decision to let me stay until Jeff Hunter has weighed in on this thread. He is the one I am trying to alert.

Zok · #17 2008-07-09, 22:00

When I criticized acidmelt on the subject of being dismissive and/or hostile I was mostly referring to his behavior on IRC - not on the BBS. The only major issue I have with him on the BBS is that he's not around often enough and the issue with Jam.

Let me reiterate my feelings about the differences between &totse and #totse. Though they are supposed to be run as entirely separate entities, the vast majority of the same people visit there.

The reason I posted things about IRC here on the BBS is this: People see moderators in #totse and assume they are the same person that they are on &totse. If a newb comes into IRC and sees oddballz being a dick, he's going to assume he's a dick on the forums as well. Because of this, I often have to deal with problems on the BBS that people don't want to take to him (or they didn't know that they could take it to him in the first place).

That is the root of my frustration. I'm talking to acidmelt about this now on IRC and we seem to be resolving it quite well - so put down your pitchforks.

Edit: Acidmelt, once again - sorry for not bringing this up with you in private first. I've just now noticed that I have a bad habit of bringing things like this up in public instead of private first (jackketch will agree on that one). I apologize.

Random_Looney · #18 $Add Infraction for Random_Looney$ 2008-07-09, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zok View Post

In short (with a clever analogy): The US constitution was written to govern a nation of less than one million. Since then, the population has exploded, many things have changed over the times, and new problems/solutions were introduced. Luckily for our nation, we've been adding amendments to the constitution to keep up with the times. I think totse might need to do the same.

I think this post and my last sum up my frustrations with totse.

Agreed.
The issue of Protected Speech has been around since the Supreme Court of the second administration of the US. We all need to remember there are limits to speech... just that they need to be reasonable.

Metaphysicist · #19 2008-07-09, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraton View Post

The grievances did not take place in IRC, they were merely discussed in IRC; all of the wrongdoings have taken place on the BBS. A fair share have happened in IRC, but they are mostly conflicts between moderator and admin, not admin and user.

I was referring to Zok's mentioning of things in IRC.

But he has clarified what he meant, so that uyh...clarifies it for me.

Bottom line is I like both Zok and Am. I consider them both friends - as much as I consider anyone I know only from the internet a friend and I think they are each great in what they do.

But I think that totse would suffer a lot if either of them left. I think it would be real hard to find a replacement who was in such perfect balance in the other.

Not to sound corny - or to date myself yet once again, they're kinda like Lennon and McCartney. Lennon kept McCartney from being too cutesy and McCartney, in turn, kept Lennon from being too serious. And the Beatles music reflects that because it is better than either of their solo shit.

Ok, I think I got carried away...

Toraton · #20 $Add Infraction for Toraton$ 2008-07-09, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphysicist View Post

I was referring to Zok's mentioning of things in IRC.

But he has clarified what he meant, so that uyh...clarifies it for me.

Bottom line is I like both Zok and Am. I consider them both friends - as much as I consider anyone I know only from the internet a friend and I think they are each great in what they do.

But I think that totse would suffer a lot if either of them left. I think it would be real hard to find a replacement who was in such perfect balance in the other.

Not to sound corny - or to date myself yet once again, they're kinda like Lennon and McCartney. Lennon kept McCartney from being too cutesy and McCartney, in turn, kept Lennon from being too serious. And the Beatles music reflects that because it is better than either of their solo shit.

Ok, I think I got carried away...

I disagree; no forum needs an admin who treats mods and users like shit; no forum needs an admin who bans people without reason.

I've finally been tempted to post this chatlog, this example of how acidmelt treated kAtE last evening:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRC

In #totse
[18:44:56] <kAtE-> fucking totse
[18:45:06] * kAtE- kicks totse
[18:45:12] <kAtE-> lose my huge fucking post :@
[18:46:46] <kAtE-> no, it wasnt that
[18:46:53] <kAtE-> ive experienced that
[18:47:00] <kAtE-> good thing i had copied it
[18:47:39] <acidmelt> was it some huge awesome troll post about how the military forum is destroying the world?
[18:47:54] <kAtE-> no
[18:47:59] <acidmelt> suprising
[18:48:00] <kAtE-> i havent crafted that post yet
[18:48:03] <acidmelt> thats what i was expecting
[18:48:46] <kAtE-> post didnt even turn out to be that huge, it just felt like ages because i had to search for links
[18:49:02] <acidmelt> was it about how people shouldnt have an option to visit a military forum just because you dont like it?
[18:49:46] <kAtE-> no, it was actually about pinhole cameras
[18:49:55] <acidmelt> ahhh ok
[18:49:58] <acidmelt> suprised again
[18:50:01] <kAtE-> but go ahead, attack me some more.
[18:50:11] <acidmelt> well im sure its going to happen sooner or later
[18:50:33] <acidmelt> no you are totally right. nobody should have the right to visit a military forum because you dont like it
[18:50:36] <acidmelt> you are totally right
[18:51:01] <kAtE-> I don't believe I've even mentioned the military forum in, hell, wel over a month?
[18:51:21] <kAtE-> maybe even longer, how long ago was it made?
[18:51:28] <acidmelt> write that on your calander? saving up for somethign big maybe?
[18:51:56] <kAtE-> totse doesn't have great enough importance to reach my calander

In #mods

[18:53:07] <kAtE-> do you make it part of your routine to attack mods in #totse out of the blue acidmelt?
[18:53:11] <kAtE-> or is this a new tatic
[18:53:25] <acidmelt> attack you?
[18:53:32] <acidmelt> am i saying somethign untrue?
[18:53:56] <kAtE-> i dislike the military forum but I believe that debate was over months ago
[18:54:14] <acidmelt> i dont appreciate MODS trolling other forums
[18:54:24] <kAtE-> I don't post in there, I haven't complained about it when there wasn't already a thread about it
[18:54:29] <acidmelt> i would LIKE to think we are all on the same team and can act like adults
[18:54:33] <acidmelt> but since that is not the case
[18:54:36] <kAtE-> wait, I've trolled a forum? evidence please
[18:55:10] <acidmelt> i would consider you going there and being annoying to other mods who are just trying to do their jobs trolling
[18:55:10] <kAtE-> I have never made a thread about that forum, nor have a posted in there, maybe once? if at all
[18:55:16] <acidmelt> but thats just me
[18:55:21] <kAtE-> but I havent
[18:55:23] <kAtE-> so.....
[18:55:26] <acidmelt> no?
[18:55:47] <kAtE-> I havent even been online in the last two weeks!
[18:55:58] <acidmelt> i dont recall saying recently
[18:56:35] <kAtE-> kAtE- I have never made a thread about that forum, nor have a posted in there, maybe once? if at all
[18:57:09] <acidmelt> so how is it that everyone knows your feelings on the forum
[18:57:23] <kAtE-> because I expressed them in mods and admins?
[18:57:31] <acidmelt> no
[18:57:33] <kAtE-> you know, when we were all discussing the forum?
[18:57:42] <kAtE-> and probably in bitch and moan
[18:57:54] <kAtE-> and the fact that I constantly am anti-war
[18:57:59] <kAtE-> in #totse
[18:58:10] <acidmelt> so on the forums and in irc
[18:58:21] <kAtE-> in the appropiate threads
[18:58:32] <acidmelt> and because YOU dont like the military that means that nobody else should be able to visit a forum about it either
[18:58:53] <kAtE-> i never said that, my opinion on the forum was anti
[18:58:59] <kAtE-> i believe totse is about different opinions
[18:59:07] <acidmelt> know what? im dropping it now. im not in the mood
[18:59:07] <kAtE-> at least, thats what I thought it was about!
[18:59:28] <kAtE-> hell, if I had the same opinion as everyone else then what a fucking boring place totse would be
[18:59:42] <kAtE-> your dropping it because your fighting me for no fucking reason
[18:59:51] <kAtE-> you're*
[19:00:12] <acidmelt> ....
[19:00:36] <acidmelt> k
[19:00:40] <acidmelt> im not doing this tonight
[19:00:40] <kAtE-> so through and read my fucking posts, i JOKED that i would troll that forum, I never went through with it, therefore proving it was a fucking joke
[19:00:59] <kAtE-> I dont know why the fuck you're choosing the fight with me, I've never hassled you in the past
[19:01:04] <kAtE-> I'm nothing but a decent fucking poster
[19:01:26] <kAtE-> totse is losing plenty of decent mods and posters as it is, your attitude isn't helping the situation
[19:01:51] <acidmelt> fucking seriuos? i said im pissy and im dropping it now, and you are goign to keep going?
[19:01:58] <acidmelt> really?
[19:02:01] <kAtE-> you started this
[19:02:15] <acidmelt> and i ended it when i said i dont want to fight about it
[19:02:16] <kAtE-> you attacked me out of the blue
[19:02:28] <kAtE-> I want a fucking apology
[19:02:48] <kAtE-> you dont just attack me for no reason, you should know better
[19:02:55] * acidmelt checks his pockets....
[19:03:00] <acidmelt> sorry all out
[19:03:31] <kAtE-> very lame
[19:03:34] <kAtE-> typical american
[19:03:34] <toraton> lol
[19:03:37] <kAtE-> :P
[19:03:40] <acidmelt> lol
[19:03:42] <toraton> This conversation is retarded
[19:03:45] <toraton> Just letting you know
[19:03:46] <zok> I don't know what you guys are arguing about - I'm on the phone, but I'll read it when I'm done
[19:03:48] <kAtE-> isn't it.
[19:03:49] <zok> But it sounds silly
[19:03:52] <zok> And it SOUNDs like it should be dropped
[19:03:54] <kAtE-> it IS silly
[19:03:56] <zok> But I don't know
[19:03:56] <acidmelt> it IS silly
[19:04:05] <toraton> PROTIP: when toraton calls an argument silly, things have gone TOO FAR
[19:04:06] <kAtE-> you started it!
[19:04:19] <acidmelt> you piss me off
[19:04:26] >kAtE-< acidmelt is a total idiot; he has no right.
[19:04:32] * zok goes back to the phone
[19:04:33] <kAtE-> i didnt even talk to you
[19:04:34] <zok>

[19:04:36] <acidmelt> and i even admitted im going to drop it
[19:04:39] <acidmelt> and you kept goign
[19:04:55] <acidmelt> if you are looking for an apology it will never happen
[19:04:56] <kAtE-> i kept going because you just can;t expect to talk to me in that way for no reason and get away with it
[19:05:03] <acidmelt> really?
[19:05:14] <kAtE-> im an alpha female, that shit doesn't fly
[19:05:22] <kAtE-> :P
[19:05:31] <acidmelt> that doesnt matter to me
[19:05:34] <kAtE-> i love that term, its my new name in my flat
[19:05:37] <acidmelt> and i dont give a shit
[19:05:54] <kAtE-> obviously you did give a shit because you looked for the fight
[19:06:01] <kAtE-> im not one to back down

[19:06:08] <acidmelt> i was just reading though som old shit
[19:06:18] <kAtE-> old, being the key word
[19:06:21] <kAtE-> i think.
[19:06:22] <acidmelt> and it pissed me off
[19:06:26] <kAtE-> tissue?
[19:06:32] <kAtE-> :P
[19:06:33] <acidmelt> yeah ok well the forum wasnt created that long ago
[19:06:35] <acidmelt> so its not that old
[19:06:49] <acidmelt> wow
[19:07:00] <kAtE-> your very easy to provoke
[19:07:02] <kAtE-> its a joy
[19:07:06] <acidmelt> is it?
[19:07:30] <kAtE-> yes.
[19:07:40] <acidmelt> no your right. im not going to react to that.
[19:07:44] <acidmelt> im in a bad mood
[19:08:13] <kAtE->

[19:08:18] <acidmelt> im going to try one more time to drop it
[19:08:25] <acidmelt> and if this is not possible
[19:08:28] <acidmelt> then
[19:08:34] <acidmelt> whatever
[19:08:38] <kAtE->

[19:08:55] <acidmelt> youve been a mod for a long time
[19:08:56] * kAtE- gives acid her last joint
[19:08:58] <kAtE-> you need it more then me
[19:09:10] <acidmelt> i dont want to do any stupid shit
[19:09:21] <toraton> Perhaps this convo should go into M&A under the title "HOW TO: Moderator and Administrator Relationships Done The Wrong Way"
[19:09:23] <kAtE-> ya, and thats why I know I can talk to you like that! and that I know you shouldnt be talking to me like that
[19:09:23] <acidmelt> i will stop now and we can talk about it in private at a ltter time
[19:10:07] <kAtE-> if you like, but as far as im concerned ive said what i have to and that I'm innocent, yo.
[19:10:49] <acidmelt> seriously though, i had all ready right clicked your nick but then rethought it. i dont want to let my pissy attitude get the best of me. it wouldnt be right being an admin
[19:10:53] <kAtE-> toraton, stirring the pot
[19:11:03] * toraton bows
[19:11:07] <toraton> kAtE-, That is my specialty
[19:11:08] <acidmelt> you are right
[19:11:18] <kAtE-> acid, well done, im proud of you
[19:11:19] <acidmelt> not worth it
[19:11:30] <acidmelt> but i will never appolagize
[19:11:30] <kAtE-> anger management, a skill i wish to master
[19:11:31] <acidmelt> ever
[19:11:36] <acidmelt> i dont do that
[19:11:56] <kAtE-> thats ok, if you didn;t realise 50% of that convo = joke and whinding up
[19:11:58] <acidmelt> thats why i try to kill it before i have to appolagize for something

If that isn't indicative of the way he treats people, I don't know what is.

I know what you're thinking: treating people badly isn't against the rules! You're right, and the lack of respect is what has driven me from this place. I would love to be a part of totse, which is why I beseech Jeff Hunter to purge the malignant tumors that have taken root.

Look at your admins, Jeff; why did you choose them so long ago? Are they the same people now? If so, then my leaving will be a blessing as this is not the place for me. Re-read my letter if you think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Let's not forget that I'm not the only one who has cited acidmelt as my reason for leaving. lifejunkie did also; he resigned the day after he and I discussed it.

Jeff Hunter · #21 2008-07-10, 01:17

Lots of interesting points here. Let me see...

I get thousands of SPAM messages every day in my totse.com mailbox. I also get 10-40 messages a day from actual people, most insisting that I spend some of my spare time doing something for them, for free, because they deserve it. Or asking a question which they could answer for themselves if they read the FAQ.

So right now I rarely read my e-mail.

I do need a better way for people to get in contact with me in case there's an actual problem. I should probably install a challenge-response system (to eliminate the SPAM) along with a whitelist of people I actually want to hear from, including anyone who's a mod or an admin.

I can (and sometimes do) review the bans/infractions handed out and the reasons for those bans/infractions. If I see a moderator handing out bans/infractions for dubious reasons I send them a PM.

I am considering creating a script to list the bans/infractions handed out, the names of the moderators handing them out, and the reasons for those bans/infractions. This information would be posted publicly. I think that would stop power-tripping abuse, if there is any. Feedback on this idea is welcome.

Toraton's list of core values is essentially correct.

Zok, your analogy of amendments to the Constitution regarding rules is dead-on, but somehow you reach the wrong conclusion. The US Constitution has only been amended 27 times in 227 years. It's rarely changed. It says you have a right to free speech, so why can't you libel or slander people without fear of consequences? It says citizens have a right to bear arms, but doesn't say that you can't own a grenade launcher, so why can't you? It says that judicially sanctioned search and arrest warrants must be supported by probable cause, yet today Congress voted that federal some agencies could wiretap at will without judicial oversight.

I'm not as smart as the framers of the Constitution, but I see their brilliance in not trying to cover every contingency. They list a few absolutes, legislators fiddle with details to fit the needs of the times (or not).

If we need to make the intent of the rules clearer we can do that, but I don't want to try to cover everything that someone might do with a rule.

jackketch · #22 $Add Infraction for jackketch$ 2008-07-10, 01:28

TOR, the uncanny thing is that, a couple of weeks ago, i was going to write a mirror image of this thread but slamming zok not acidmelt!

So why didn't I? Well firstly because I didn't want it leaked onto the boards and secondly and more importantly zok and I suddenly both remembered we are adults and we started to talk (and I have been making an effort to go on IRC, which you all know I hate, IN PART so he and I could find time to chat).

Now there is a lot of hurt between him and me, lot of personal disappointment. You all saw what happened. I don't think he ever expected that a mod who was always as loyal as I was to tear into him publically like that and for my part I never believed that an admin I deeply respected would act the way he did...and in some ways still does.

So we talk. We are slowly working through our issues, we ain't there yet but we're on our way and trust me the Make Up Sex is going to be fucking ace!

Couple of year back the same thing happened between me an acidmelt. He was wrong and I took it upon myself to make sure he knew it. You can all imagine how he reacted. But we worked it through.

Tor, You know I back you 100% on freedom of speech issues, and totse NEEDS you here to fight the good fight but if acidmelt says jam was giving up members to the police then there's no question that he was right to ban him.

And its always been that way as fas as I know. I had similar issues a while back when some fucker was using details posted here to blackmail people IRL.

I took it to acidmelt and he banned the jerk, hell he even emailed with the guy and told him exactly why a maggot like him would no longer be posting.

Thankfully things like that don't happened often but when they do they are serious. You use totse to hurt members IRL then you losing your privilege of posting here.

And the other issues you have with acidmelt? Talk to him and remember you too have every right to be wrong.

BUT DON'T FUCKING LEAVE TOR, WE NEED YOU>

'kay?

jackketch · #23 $Add Infraction for jackketch$ 2008-07-10, 01:30

Jeff, nice idea about the infractions. If we must have them then publically and with some accountabilty.

Nereth · #24 $Add Infraction for Nereth$ 2008-07-10, 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Hunter View Post

I am considering creating a script to list the bans/infractions handed out, the names of the moderators handing them out, and the reasons for those bans/infractions. This information would be posted publicly. I think that would stop power-tripping abuse, if there is any. Feedback on this idea is welcome.

That is a great idea. I haven't infracted anybody yet, but when closing/moving threads etc, I find telling people my reasoning works wonders. They actually become surprisingly polite and don't take it personally at all - they may raise a good point on why it shouldn't be locked/moved/whatever, but they leave the decision to me and respect it. I didn't think that would happen when I started out as a mod not long ago, but it does. And this isn't from my well behaved bunch of regulars in gearheads, this is normally newcomers. Sometimes I see threads closed or moved or what have you without anyone saying why or how. I understand that on the faster moving boards moderators may not have the time, however depending on who is involved, it may save a lot of time in the future to post reasoning. This isn't a reply specifically for Jeff to read so much as a general point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Hunter View Post

Toraton's list of core values is essentially correct.

Zok, your analogy of amendments to the Constitution regarding rules is dead-on, but somehow you reach the wrong conclusion. The US Constitution has only been amended 27 times in 227 years. It's rarely changed. It says you have a right to free speech, so why can't you libel or slander people without fear of consequences? It says citizens have a right to bear arms, but doesn't say that you can't own a grenade launcher, so why can't you? It says that judicially sanctioned search and arrest warrants must be supported by probable cause, yet today Congress voted that federal some agencies could wiretap at will without judicial oversight.

I'm not as smart as the framers of the Constitution, but I see their brilliance in not trying to cover every contingency. They list a few absolutes, legislators fiddle with details to fit the needs of the times (or not).

If we need to make the intent of the rules clearer we can do that, but I don't want to try to cover everything that someone might do with a rule.

From what I understand, you are saying that the rules are supposed to be fuzzy and such to allow some modification as situations change. Two things come to mind: First, the regulars need to be told that, because as far as they are concerned they are sharp as a knife, and second, when combined with things you have said around the forum (e.g. your definition of spam), it really isn't very fuzzy anymore.

deus-redux · #25 $Add Infraction for deus-redux$ 2008-07-10, 04:07

As far as I am concerned, there need only be three rules:

You can say what you wish, provided:

1) You do so in an intelligible manner
This means attempting to communicate an idea, or make a statement, as opposed to stringing random words together, or advertising.

2) You give others a fair chance to have their say too
This means not communicating in such a way that it prevents others from doing so; breaking Totse, spamming, and flooding, basically.

3) You do so in a reasonably orderly way, and in the right time and place
This means posting in the right forum, giving the thread an appropriate title, etc.

That is all.

-deus-

Nereth · #26 $Add Infraction for Nereth$ 2008-07-10, 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by deus-redux View Post

As far as I am concerned, there need only be three rules:

You can say what you wish, provided:

1) You do so in an intelligible manner
This means attempting to communicate an idea, or make a statement, as opposed to stringing random words together, or advertising.

2) You give others a fair chance to have their say too
This means not communicating in such a way that it prevents others from doing so; breaking Totse, spamming, and flooding, basically.

3) You do so in a reasonably orderly way, and in the right time and place
This means posting in the right forum, giving the thread an appropriate title, etc.

That is all.

-deus-

This does not include posting personal information, multiple accounts, and possibly other important things.

deus-redux · #27 $Add Infraction for deus-redux$ 2008-07-10, 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nereth View Post

This does not include posting personal information, multiple accounts, and possibly other important things.

A person and a user are two entirely separate entities. There is not a 1:1 relationship. A user can be many people, a person can be many users.

Unless you want to start taking users' passports on registration, then there is no effective way to guarantee otherwise; it's a losing battle.

If a USER is causing problems, ban that USER.

As for posting personal information, "and in the right time and place", If the information posted is not appropriate for where it is posted, then it should be removed.

Personal information, however, can be a touchy subarea, and we are NOT the internet police. If you don't want something distributing online, DON'T post it online in the first place.

The vast majority of pictures of users that get posted are uploaded by the respective user themselves.

Anyway, I will not continue to argue over my "rules", since they're not the rules in play; I was merely stating how I would do things, so people know where I stand.

-deus-

Nereth · #28 $Add Infraction for Nereth$ 2008-07-10, 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by deus-redux View Post

A person and a user are two entirely separate entities. There is not a 1:1 relationship. A user can be many people, a person can be many users.

Unless you want to start taking users' passports on registration, then there is no effective way to guarantee otherwise; it's a losing battle.

If a USER is causing problems, ban that USER.

Why would you do that? Why would you assault my brain at this hour of the day? It's not done anything to you. Now it's ruined.

Toraton · #29 $Add Infraction for Toraton$ 2008-07-10, 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Hunter View Post

I am considering creating a script to list the bans/infractions handed out, the names of the moderators handing them out, and the reasons for those bans/infractions. This information would be posted publicly. I think that would stop power-tripping abuse, if there is any. Feedback on this idea is welcome.

This is a great idea and I wholly support it, but it should include administrators also; in my examples, the problem exists at the top. Everyone must follow the rules and be held accountable for their actions. Jeff, in a recent discussion, acidmelt revealed to me that he made the rules and was above them, and could change them at his whim; is that true?

Thank you so much for reading this. I have been losing my hope in totse for a long time. I would like to see people held accountable for what they have done, especially those who have tarnished totse's name.

@jackketch:

I respect your sentiments, but this thread has little or nothing to do with acidmelt banning Jam; it is about his disrespect for users and moderators. It is about his claims that he is above the law, as if totse does not exist beyond him. If he wants to act that way, fine, but let him realize that when his actions begin to reflect on the community, people will leave.

One more note:
As I said previously, I fully intend to stick around until this is seen through; I really want to help Jeff make this into a better place and I'd really like to see the rules upheld for everyone equally.

acidmelt · #30 2008-07-10, 07:39

But Tor - you forget that I am the second coming of Jesus.... you also forget that I am being sarcastic 95% of the time. Pull the stick out of your ass.

jackketch · #31 $Add Infraction for jackketch$ 2008-07-10, 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidmelt View Post

But Tor - you forget that I am the second coming of Jesus.... you also forget that I am being sarcastic 95% of the time. Pull the stick out of your ass.

Yes but your sarcasm isn't always easy to indentify. The use of [/sarcasm] bracketts might help.

I'm serious dude, there have been several times when I've had to explain to people that you were just taking the piss and you weren't seriously planning on tearing out their children's livers and eating them.

Some people are a little slow, y'know?

Toraton · #32 $Add Infraction for Toraton$ 2008-07-10, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by acidmelt View Post

But Tor - you forget that I am the second coming of Jesus.... you also forget that I am being sarcastic 95% of the time. Pull the stick out of your ass.

If you seriously expect me to believe this then you are sorely mistaken; I am judging your actions openly and without prejudice, and you expect me to believe that you are kidding? Over the years you have claimed so many times to be above the rules; not only that, but that you can create and change them at your will.

If you were joking, then you have put years of work into solidifying this fabrication.

Also, Jeff, I'd like to point out that two moderators have contacted me saying they fully agree but that they are too afraid of retribution if they come out and share my stance; perhaps this will go a few inches further towards showing you how deep this runs.

acidmelt · #33 2008-07-10, 09:47

"Over the years you have claimed so many times to be above the rules; not only that, but that you can create and change them at your will."

I havent changed over the years. Ive always been like this. And what rules exactly have i changed?

[sarcasm]and mods afraid of retrobution? as in I would remove them? just for not agreeing with me? yeah cause thats a common thing right? i mean just look at all the mods ive removed. the list must be 2 pages long single spaced.[/sarcasm]

notice that i put the sarcasm tags in there for people that are too stupid to pick up on it. your welcome tor.

jackketch · #34 $Add Infraction for jackketch$ 2008-07-10, 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraton View Post

Also, Jeff, I'd like to point out that two moderators have contacted me saying they fully agree but that they are too afraid of retribution if they come out and share my stance; perhaps this will go a few inches further towards showing you how deep this runs.

Not sure why they should feel that way. Like I said, my experience with acidmelt is that exact opposite (ie modded AFTER disagreeing with him publically and viciously). When has he demodded anyone daring to disagree with him?

Hell I tell him when I think he's wrong, like about TWS.

Euda · #35 $Add Infraction for Euda$ 2008-07-10, 10:26

If acidmelt only made totse decisions while sober, or without Meta's advice, I would be able to support him.

He's good people.

However, having so much of totse revolve around drug deals and junked up decisions doesn't help anything.

I wish everyone the best on this one, but I've learned not to expect much in the way of quality reasoning when acidmelt and Meta decide to do something. Good luck.

Jeff Hunter · #36 2008-07-10, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraton View Post

This is a great idea and I wholly support it, but it should include administrators also; in my examples, the problem exists at the top. Everyone must follow the rules and be held accountable for their actions.

I did not mean to imply that anyone's actions would be exempt from the report. Actions of admins, moderators, popes, whatever -- all would be listed.

Toraton · #37 $Add Infraction for Toraton$ 2008-07-10, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Hunter View Post

I did not mean to imply that anyone's actions would be exempt from the report. Actions of admins, moderators, popes, whatever -- all would be listed.

Thanks, I guess that's all I'm striving for; I've said my piece and everyone is aware of what I think needs to happen, so I'll leave it at that.

As soon as I have selected replacements then I will wait to be removed.

O RLY · #38 $Add Infraction for O RLY$ 2008-07-10, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraton View Post

Thanks, I guess that's all I'm striving for; I've said my piece and everyone is aware of what I think needs to happen, so I'll leave it at that.

As soon as I have selected replacements then I will wait to be removed.

Dude... I'm really sad to see you do this. I've come to like you more and more since my start on Totse. Never really thought I had your respect until just recently. I always thought you just thought of me as one of the lower level posters. I see now that you didn't. I'd like to thank you for your support, your input, and the all around good times I've had talking to you.

Toraton · #39 $Add Infraction for Toraton$ 2008-07-10, 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by O RLY View Post

Dude... I'm really sad to see you do this. I've come to like you more and more since my start on Totse. Never really thought I had your respect until just recently. I always thought you just thought of me as one of the lower level posters. I see now that you didn't. I'd like to thank you for your support, your input, and the all around good times I've had talking to you.

Trust me, the last thing I want to do is leave; I feel like I have been left with no choice. I appreciate the sentiments, and I promise that I'll still be around IRC.

Honestly, I'd like to stay around totse in some capacity, but I cannot tolerate the inability to revert acidmelt's poor decisions. No one makes him accountable for his actions and that is just frustrating.

We could always discuss the possibility of acidmelt stepping down to Super Moderator, or perhaps elevating another balancing force to the same level as acidmelt and Zok. Either of those solutions might work nicely.

rabbhimself · #40 $Add Infraction for rabbhimself$ 2008-07-10, 15:12

Toraton, don't you dare fucking go

You're one of the only people left that I can have a propper debate with in GPP that doesn't turn into flaming/console war