Argumentum Ornithologicum

I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I am not sure how many birds I saw. Was the number of birds definite or indefinite? The problem involves the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because God knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because no one can have counted. In this case I saw fewer than ten birds (let us say) and more than one, but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which was not nine , eight, seven, six, five, etc. That integer -- not-nine, not-eight, not-seven, not-six, not-five, etc. -- is inconceivable. Ergo, God exists.

[Roxberry]

So, you saw a number of birds between 1 and 10, yet you didn't see a number of birds between 1 and 10? Sorry, that makes no sense.

If something is inconceivable, God must exist? You didn't tell us why and your conclusion did not follow from its premise (a (non sequitur) making it a fallacious argument.

[Vanhalla]

The Ratio of all we'll ever know is not the same as when we know more.

[BrokeProphet]

What nonsense.

[Obbe]

I do not see how this would verify God exists or not. Sorry.

[Rizzo in a box]

Originally Posted by only black man in vermont

I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I am not sure how many birds I saw. Was the number of birds definite or indefinite? The problem involves the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because God knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because no one can have counted. In this case I saw fewer than ten birds (let us say) and more than one, but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which was not nine , eight, seven, six, five, etc. That integer -- not-nine, not-eight, not-seven, not-six, not-five, etc. -- is inconceivable. Ergo, God exists.

This problem also depends on whether or not "God" determines yr perception, if so, well perception determines yr cognitive reality. If so, there is no "I" which you can claim, there is only an infinite God which controls yr actions, thoughts, emotions, and perceptions.

Look more closely and you'll stare at the birds and wonder - where does one start and one end? And then you'll realize there is no way to separate anything from anything else and yr question will implode in upon itself only leads birds flying, a heart singing, and a complete lack of control while being head of the universe.

[Rust]

Originally Posted by Rizzo in a box

Look more closely and you'll stare at the birds and wonder - where does one start and one end? And then you'll realize there is no way to separate anything from anything else and yr question will implode in upon itself only leads birds flying, a heart singing, and a complete lack of control while being head of the universe.

I honestly can't believe you can write that load of crap with a straight face. Holy shit.

[Rizzo in a box]

Originally Posted by Rust

I honestly can't believe you can write that load of crap with a straight face. Holy shit.

what makes you think I've got a straight face?

[KikoSanchez]

Originally Posted by only black man in vermont

I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I am not sure how many birds I saw. Was the number of birds definite or indefinite? The problem involves the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because God knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because no one can have counted. In this case I saw fewer than ten birds (let us say) and more than one, but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which was not nine , eight, seven, six, five, etc. That integer -- not-nine, not-eight, not-seven, not-six, not-five, etc. -- is inconceivable. Ergo, God exists.

This is called confusion/ignorance. If a camera saw the same thing, you could go back, watch the tape, and then know how many there were. This piece of knowledge is contingent. So then, god exists one moment and not the next? That is to say, before watching the tape, no one knew how many you saw and god did not exist. The next, you watched the tape and you know how many birds there had been, and therefore god did exist. Awesome!!!!

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by Roxberry

So, you saw a number of birds between 1 and 10, yet you didn't see a number of birds between 1 and 10? Sorry, that makes no sense.

If something is inconceivable, God must exist? You didn't tell us why and your conclusion did not follow from its premise (a (non sequitur) making it a fallacious argument.

Well said.

IMHO, we create our own reality, which is what is meant by the Vedic saying "We are not in the world--the world is in us."

[Roxberry]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

Well said.

IMHO, we create our own reality, which is what is meant by the Vedic saying "We are not in the world--the world is in us."

Thanks for the compliment, but- huh? Our minds don't create what's real. There is either a computer monitor on my desk or there isn't. Whether or not I believe it's there or it's an illusion or I'm dreaming, etc., does not change what's real or not.

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by Roxberry

Whether or not I believe it's there or it's an illusion or I'm dreaming, etc., does not change what's real or not.

Certainly, but are you able to verify what is real and not?

[Rust]

Originally Posted by Roxberry

So, you saw a number of birds between 1 and 10, yet you didn't see a number of birds between 1 and 10? Sorry, that makes no sense.

Not that this was intended as a philosophical proof in the first place - like I said it was a poem - but at no point in time does he state that "he didn't see a number of birds between 1 and 10". He explicitly states he did, and not otherwise.

[Rizzo in a box]

Originally Posted by Roxberry

Thanks for the compliment, but- huh? Our minds don't create what's real. There is either a computer monitor on my desk or there isn't. Whether or not I believe it's there or it's an illusion or I'm dreaming, etc., does not change what's real or not.

It's a computer monitor if you tell yrself it is, but if you don't tell yrself what it is, you have no idea what it is.

[Roxberry]

Originally Posted by Rizzo in a box

It's a computer monitor if you tell yrself it is, but if you don't tell yrself what it is, you have no idea what it is.

No, it's either a computer monitor or it isn't; what I tell myself is irrelevant.