After doing ecstasy i've come to find that anything else i've ever done is worthlese in comparison. Weed, booze, downers, painkillers.. it blows them all out of the water.
Now i've always heard that your supposed to wait 4-6 weeks in between trips to let your brain reset itself, and that you can't keep the high going, but everyone that i've seen take these things is instantly in love and start popping them like candy.
This morning when i came down i was running down the street to the ATM, and ready to hop on my bike and ride 5 miles down the road to my friend who refused to give me what he had left.
are you really supposed to wait a full fucking month?? is it really necessary?

Yes, you do need to wait. The sad thing is; most people don't. I was in the same position you are. Let me tell you; It fucking sucks. E fucks with your brain if you over-indulge. It lead me down a path I wish I never had to go down.

Even though some of the best times I ever had was on E, I will never roll again. This is because I know, when I roll good it puts my mind in a place that I never want to leave.

If you think that your getting hooked, then quit while your ahead. It sucks, but you will thank yourself in the long run.

Honestly, I'm scared to touch that shit again. I'm ashamed to admit it, but it grabs a hold of me.

If you can't wait a few weeks to do it again, chances are your going down the wrong path.

So you just want information (the kind you want to hear) spoon-fed to you? Or for people to say "go ahead dude, lolz."

Doing it frequently is bad because it kills the magic very quickly, and in a cheap/unsatisfying way. If you abuse it, your interest in MDMA will die very quickly, and all the times you do it in the future, you'll find it feels much more "hollow" and meaningless and you idealize how it used to be.

Maybe 2 months or whatever is a bit long to wait when first discovering E, but the longer you wait, the more it pays off. For one, the comedowns are easier when you're not totally depleting your neurotransmitters. The quality of a rolling experience often depends on you not using it too frequently. Ideally, it should be taken only on special occasions, to make sure it's always good/not a waste, and so it's not made into too much of a habit. That way it stays "special", as it is intended to be, for one's enjoyment. Wait a minimum of 2 weeks between rolls. I'd seriously recommend a month. The cheapening of the E experience is lame, and it's really not addictive so there's not much excuse other than addictive personality and/or youthful ignorance/stupidity to be doing it very frequently.

This morning when i came down i was running down the street to the ATM, and ready to hop on my bike and ride 5 miles down the road to my friend who refused to give me what he had left.

Funny. I had always thought that cocaine had worse oral bioavaliability than that...

On a more serious note, you really should get a fucking test kit. As far as I can tell, pure MDMA is slightly less addictive than cannabis, and slightly more addictive than LSD... and I would not refer to any of those three as "more addictive than ice cream." Staying up for a week and cashing out your checking account at 3am so you can never come down for five more minutes is not supposed to be a property of the substance...

are you really supposed to wait a full fucking month?? is it really necessary?

God, damn.

Why do they always ask shit like this? "Is huffing raid really that bad?" "is a first-time opiate user spiking a vein for a month straight REALLY that much of an OD/addiction risk?"

Wishful thinking is not, in any way, shape, or form your friend in life. It is even less your friend on the subject of drug use.

Here's the thing. When ur serotonin is empty, the reuptake pump sucks dopamine. When dopamine gets sucked into your raephe nucleus, it goes "poof." The raephe nucleus, that is. Yup, an entire organ of your brain, upon which every other region is absolutely dependent, turned into dead tissue. 'n when someone loads ungodly amounts of meth into said pills, it's made a lot fucking worse.

Are you looking forward to the opportunity to never feel like that again, even in your sober life? How 'bout the anxiety which comes with it? The antisocial zombiehood? The permanent and severe depression caused by actually destroying an entire organ in your brain?

No?

Aside from ONDCP creating drug myths, people do not, in fact, make this shit up for fun. Yes, not taking breaks from heroin use is addictive. Yes, never coming down from MDMA/meth combos will fry out your skull in under a month. The shit's basically harmless with semireasonable use when pure, but you, otoh, are talking about pushing the gas pedal to the floor while the car of your life is pointing directly at a downward spiral like it's some sort of good idea.

Now go get a fucking test kit. God only knows what mystery substance you're jonesing for at 3am.

...

lol

thanks for the info dude.

not to threadjack, but what would be a good dose/frequency for pure mdma be to avoid this situation? like once/twice a month?

I gota say the first time I did E was one of the best nights of my life and almost every time iv done it has been so amazingly awesome. Sorta led me to the conclusion that such a great drug should really really be saved for those special occasions like big parties, raves and festivals... I wouldn't worry so much about addiction rather a build up of tolerance and a decrease in the more positive effects which as many regular E users describe as that loss of magic. Save E for those rare special occasions and every occasion will be as great as the first. I got a lot of mates that drop every weekend and sometimes mid-week even with nothing going on and they really don't seem to be having that much of a good time and definitely don't get the same positive effects they used to. Also regular use fucks your head up big time.

nb4 stupidnoob testkit


shit, pedo beat me to it

I find it to be a HELL of a lot funner when X is done occasionally just when the right oppurtunity comes and you have plenty of some guaranteed good shit and with good company.

Now if you think X blows everything out of the water I'm going to suggest that you focus all your energy towards finding some sort of common psychedelic, take a good dose and let that show u what life is all about.

Here's the thing. When ur serotonin is empty, the reuptake pump sucks dopamine. When dopamine gets sucked into your raephe nucleus, it goes "poof." The raephe nucleus, that is. Yup, an entire organ of your brain, upon which every other region is absolutely dependent, turned into dead tissue. 'n when someone loads ungodly amounts of meth into said pills, it's made a lot fucking worse.

Are you looking forward to the opportunity to never feel like that again, even in your sober life? How 'bout the anxiety which comes with it? The antisocial zombiehood? The permanent and severe depression caused by actually destroying an entire organ in your brain?


and thanks pedo, I knew a guy who was fucked up supposedly from taking too much xtc and I always wondered how that was even possible, he just always seemed depressed and like how you put it, an antisocial zombie. But that seems to explain it

First time I did E I decided it was the best thing ever and did it again a day later. Then I did it again like 4 days later. I couldn't believe how good it was. Then the dealer who got me the pure mdma left town and I never did them again (I tried but could tell they were fake as fuck, probably pure speed). I always wonder how my life would have been if the dealer never left. Those few days were, as depressing as it is, the best days of my life. I would take Shulgins advice and stick to every 6 months. I've never heard that thing about the dopamine though joepedo that's interesting and scary. I always thought your brain made H2O2 in an attempt to oxidize some of the excess serotonin which in turn bleached your nerve endings after time. Guess I have some reading to do.

I always thought your brain made H2O2 in an attempt to oxidize some of the excess serotonin which in turn bleached your nerve endings after time. Guess I have some reading to do.

Eh? Iv never heard that before Where did you read/hear that? Doesn't sound likely.

Don't over do it, I regret that I did. Now I barely feel it at all and the negatives outweigh the positive by far. It's been a couple years since I last tried any though, maybe give it a shot sometime soon with a good dose and see if it will be any better compared to the last couple times.

http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/biowissenschaften_chemie/bericht-91178.html
A quick google turned this up. I wasn't all right, this seems like it says that H2O2 is a byproduct of the reaction that eliminates the serotonin but w/e. That makes more sense then the brain just making hydrogen peroxide.

"It was known that neurons that produce serotonin eliminate its excess by using monoamine oxidase (MAO), a type of enzyme (enzymes are proteins that mediate chemical reactions) that as it destroys serotonin produces hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). And H2O2 can lead to the formation of free radicals – toxic molecules that when in high quantities can damage the cell components, including DNA, by oxidising them in the same reaction that leads iron to rust."

wait if you want to, but you wont.

Funny. I had always thought that cocaine had worse oral bioavaliability than that...

clever..

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Just be responsible. I take MDMA in its crystal format, but I'm not kidding myself that it's not mixed/cut with shit.

You can be perfectly healthy and still do mandy every now and again.

Your still kidding yourself then, unless you get it direct from a lab, synth it or test it then you still don't know its not mixed/cut with shit. Just because its sold as "pure" crystal mdma you still don't know 100% unless you have either tested it or seen it been made. Crystals can be cut just as easily as pills can me...

I gota agree though, I never buy pills and always go that little extra to be a bit more certain I'm getting a cleaner product, that and its a lot easier to dose.

Your still kidding yourself then, unless you get it direct from a lab, synth it or test it then you still don't know its not mixed/cut with shit. Just because its sold as "pure" crystal mdma you still don't know 100% unless you have either tested it or seen it been made. Crystals can be cut just as easily as pills can me...

I gota agree though, I never buy pills and always go that little extra to be a bit more certain I'm getting a cleaner product, that and its a lot easier to dose.

I think you misunderstood. I thought he said he had no illusion that while his shit is in crystal form, there's still going to be adulterants... I thought he just meant that crystal is generally better quality/purer than your average tablets, which in my experience is true.

Yeah, Tordek, you got the wrong end of the stick. I know full well that I never get pure MDMA; still, getting it in its crystal form has got to be safer then buying some random pills, labeled by your drug dealer as 'e'.

its because its ecstasy man. of course nothing else is going to compare.
its sorta obvious man.
thats why its called ecstasy in the first place.

Exactly what I was going to say. Save the magic and you'll appreciate it so much more instead of taking it for granted.

I usually wait a week between rolls, but then again I don't have an addictive personality.

Wait a week and a half?
4-6 weeks seems excessive.

I've never heard that thing about the dopamine though joepedo that's interesting and scary. I always thought your brain made H2O2 in an attempt to oxidize some of the excess serotonin which in turn bleached your nerve endings after time. Guess I have some reading to do.

Well, you're basically right - that's the technical mechanism that was written up as the layperson's "it goes poof" in that post... MAO-B acting on dopamine to create H2O2 as a byproduct.

One of the most interesting studies on this I've seen is Hrometz's 2004 work. While the oxidization of serotonin by MAO-B creates a small amount of H2O2, introduction of dopamine to the cell increases H2O2 by 84%...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15308297

...and, uhh... oh yeah. Dopamine + MDMA increases H2O2 by 420%. One more reason to keep meth out of your molly, for starters.

Sadly, while the old studies focused more on tryptophan hydroxylase, it was also shown in Stone's '88 work that inhibiting the synthesis of dopamine blocked most of MDMA's long-term effects...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2902215

...but... yeah. You're basically correct on what happens between when dopamine gets sucked into the cell, and when it dies, 'n how it's death comes about. Bleached to death. Cue the blonde jokes. ;)

not to threadjack, but what would be a good dose/frequency for pure mdma be to avoid this situation? like once/twice a month?

Well, that's a good question.

Most studies have found that a normal dose of pure MDMA is not neurotoxic. 'n they've also found that things like excessive dosages or abusively frequent prolonged use are neurotoxic.

Most all of the mechanisms of cell death have been pretty well discussed, walking through each step of the way on the molecular level. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned, however, is why (besides meth) dopamine might get sucked into a sertonergic axon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7934616

Apparently, dopamine only gets vacumed up when serotonin runs dry. If you don't deplete it to empty, it seems everything turns out alright, 'n it's a fairly harmless, safe drug with no neurological body load.

However, there's a catch... as mentioned by Stone's work, above, tryptophan hydroxylase activity is reduced for a moderately prolonged period of time after MDMA use. Sadly, no one is willing to mention how long "long-term reduction" is, except that one study...

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1705495

Mentions "months." Not too helpful unless they mention how many months, really... but more to the point, that reduction in serotonin synthesis is going to make it a bit harder to replenish one's stores - which as we've established, is neccesary, as it's running empty that causes your brain to flat-out fry itself. 'n while that TPH is also dopamine-mediated, shutting off 100% dopaminergic neurotransmission in a normal brain isn't particularly viable. Among other things, your frontal cortex would shut down entirely. Best just to not do meth with your E, and accept the natural DA as unavoidable.

Hmm. So, to recap...

- Your raephe nucleus completely fries when your serotonin stores are emtpied.

- MDMA releases a lot of serotonin, lowering stores, and...

- MDMA can make it harder to fill back up.

...that last one is the main reason for spacing it out. It's what keeps us from just eating a lot of tryptophan-rich foods and dosing 2 or 3 times a week - less and less will be converted. 'n by now, it should be clear that diet can affect neurotoxicity a lot - someone who is extremely depressed due to low serotonin is probably having their brain fry without the drugs through the same mechanism and will experience negative impact from MDMA much quicker at lower doses.

Of course, that last reference also showed that rats on a low recreational dose in a chronic, abusive fashion don't have the 5-HT depletion of rats on a "noxious" dose for prolonged periods - another example of depletion overload vs. more-moderate use. How much this applies to the T5H reduction, no one seems willing to say.

Nonetheless, the data regarding T5H versus immediate serotonin depletion (and resulting neurotoxicity) suggests that "how long to wait" is actually two questions : "how long to wait until my serotonin store recover," and "how long to wait until my ability to recover recovers."

Best estimate for that which I've seen is shulgin's 6 month figure, though there's probably some sort of break-even which is closer to the 2-3 months constantly bandied around, where one's recovery ability never recovers, but stays around a medium average rather than moving back to normal or down to further inhibition.

As far as I can tell, what this means is that, while one can probably dose every 4-7 days if one has a good diet for serotonin production, the first two or three times they consume MDMA, the more one deviates from shulgin's "twice a year" figure, the longer one will have to wait. This gives rise to an interesting "pyramiding idea," dosing idea, dosing 1 week later, dosing 2 weeks later, dosing 4 weeks later, etc, but for the most part, I'd try to stay away from that.

Short answer? The more one doses, the longer one will have to wait. If one has a month where one has been rolling once every weekend, it's probably harmless so far, but one should probably give it at least 2-3 months before the next time, at least. If one has been dosing once every six months for the last few years, and no more frequently, but one just rolled four days ago and then was invited to a community session with one's closest friends - it's probably alright, but be aware that your recovery time will get a lot longer with such a repeated dosing, and you'll have to wait a couple weeks 'till next time no matter what the event.

I wish there had been constructed a clear f(x) for the T5H alterations, because they're... sorta what determine the replenishment rate of your serotonin stores. Unfortunately, that data is not availiable. All we know is that 4-7 days would normally do it, if one eats rich foods - but that each use increases the recovery time longer and longer with each time, for some number of months.

Damn this vacum of information. ;) One could probably get away with every couple months, more or less. 'n ascorbic acid and a-lipioic acid have been shown to block peroxide-mediated damage even when deliberately induced, so a really careful person might be able to up it past the saftey point, safely, for special occasions, if they let their T5H come back afterwards.

Wow I didn't know a lot of that stuff. So many things all working against you. So that means that taking 5-htp after a roll might not even help because of the tryptophan hydroxylase enzyme? Do any other drugs cause such a huge release of serotonin? Like the tryptamines? Cause I have a bit of a mushroom habit I'm wondering how good that is. Lsd works on both 5-ht and dopamine receptors right but does it release those chemicals? Cause if it does then the bleaching would a problem with it as well. Right?

A week in between is a bit excessive and you say you don't have an addictive personality, come on. If you weren't addicted to it, you wouldn't see the need to go back to it over and over every week. Be honest with yourself.

I think you misunderstood. I thought he said he had no illusion that while his shit is in crystal form, there's still going to be adulterants... I thought he just meant that crystal is generally better quality/purer than your average tablets, which in my experience is true.



I gota agree though, I never buy pills and always go that little extra to be a bit more certain I'm getting a cleaner product, that and its a lot easier to dose.

I said that...