...unless they are already considered physically attractive by the man.

Certain females in this forum would like to believe this is not the case, and that a positive oultook and confidence will let them win men over. For these girls' sake, I'd like to allow other males to help set them straight.

And to be clear: I'm saying that physical looks are the biggest thing for attracting a man, and without them, seductive efforts will almost defintiely fail. A man will check out a woman when he meets her, and if she doesn't physically fall into the "fuckable" category, then it's a lost cause. The best thing any woman can do is work on her looks, and THEN work on seductive techniques if she wants to get a man hooked to her. Men can rely on characteristics like cleanliness, dominance, and charm, and ultimately overshadow physical low-points to get women that physically are out of their league. Women can also get most men, but the personality/non-physical characteristics are going to be ignored or viewed negatively if there's no physical attraction.

Lastly: There are always exceptions to any rule, this included. However, this rule applies to MOST males and females accross the planet.

I said magazine survey because that would be the most likely place you'd find any thing on the subject. One guy, you, cannot speak for all men. It'd be like me saying "All women want guys with broad shoulders and I'm a woman and I like broad shoulders so it has to be right", its just not true.

I wasnt saying I dont want to be attractive, either, of course I do. I was saying that this isnt something I'm arguing about because its personal, rather I argue because I think you're wrong.

Also, for anyone else who decides to read this, DerDrache, define "fuckable" more solidly please.

Like I said before I still think that you are wrong. Unless the lady in question is atrocious looking the majority of the average looking population can easily increase their attractiveness by being mentally attractive and pay a little extra care to how they present themselves physically. I've seen this happen over and over again. A guy may want to bang you if you manage to completely make over your physical appearance but he's not going to date you unless you're interesting as well.
If you're still going to deny that people can raise their attractiveness to the opposite sex by being fun to hang out with then I must be an exception to the rule because I've had that work in my favor over and over again. And I definitely consider myself average looking. Not bad, not good, average.

I agree with DerDrache, although it's a shame.

It seems like women are always finding qualities in a less-than gorgeous man to redeem him, (He's not great looking, but he's so sweet), and men are always finding redeeming physical qualities in less-than genius girls (She's as dumb as a post but she's got great tits.) The fact is when it comes to men it's some spark of physical attraction that gets you in the door, and all those other great qualities; personality, intelligence, sense of humor, are what keep you there.

But I like to think that just about any woman, barring the freakishly ugly and deformed, can be found attractive by some man, somewhere, if they just take care of themselves and try to look their best.

Then you're in the 'fuckable' category from t=0.

The way it is with me, is, if you're too hideous for me to fuck, then i really won't bother. That being said, i find women become more attractive to me when their personality is attractive too.

However, it doesn't matter if you're below the threshold of fuckability.

We aren't in complete disagreement, though there seems to be some misunderstandings.

Let me elaborate:

Most women, assuming they aren't atrocious looking, can get a boyfriend, and can get fucked. However, a woman is going to be limited to an exclusive range of men that are in their league, based soley on their physical features. Rare exceptions aside, if a woman's features made her an overall 5, she will never get a man that is a 8, 9, or 10. She could probably have a nice audience among ugly guys, perhaps mediocre guys at best, but the point is that she will be limited.

So, that is my first point: If you are physically out of a man's league, then seductive efforts are useless.

My second point is simply that that doesn't have to be the case. Barring deformities and such, most women can put themselves in the league of the better looking men, and then seduce them.

To put yourself in their league (and I guess this is where you guys don't believe me), you must improve your looks. This is what attracts men, and unless you are, say, offering to suck him off in the bathroom, no words of yours will change his mind. Sometimes improving your looks can just encompass "cleaning up", but often it means making physical changes. A nice hairdo and what you consider a nice dress won't make a man overlook an unattractive face and an unimpressive body.

Now, just by the physical nature of male attraction, there will be some men who just don't find whatever you offer appealing. But if you improve your looks enough, then you'll expand your playing ground quite a bit. If you were a 5 now, would you not want to be a 7?

If your face is rather unattractive, but you have a nice body (ie. fit, nice breasts), then you could get guys that are 10s. If your face is pretty but you're obese, then workout and you could potentially even be a 10. If you have big breasts and are overweight, then lose the weight, and again, you'll improve your quality of men greatly.

And really, the same general idea applies with men in attracting women. If a woman finds a man unattractive, then all of his efforts will be USELESS, as he will be shut out. However, the major difference is that women are attracted to imagery much more than physical features. In fact, there's quite a bit of evidence that physical features are insignificant in attracting women. A man sees a face, tits, ass, and legs. A woman sees a man's clothes, money, and social status. In either case, if the person doesn't like what they see, they will quickly shut out the other suitor. The practical difference however, is that a woman will be shut out just purely on her natural, physical features, while a man will be shut out because of his social features.

In the end, I'm just trying to help. I don't ever think there's a reason to settle for mediocrity when it comes to your body. I definitely agree with you girls that you need to be confident and have a good self-esteem. No matter how anyone looks, self-esteem and happiness ARE the most important things. But...if we're talking about the mating game, then looking better is always an important thing to be working on (casually, not obsessively :p)

We aren't in complete disagreement, though there seems to be some misunderstandings.

Let me elaborate:

Most women, assuming they aren't atrocious looking, can get a boyfriend, and can get fucked. However, a woman is going to be limited to an exclusive range of men that are in their league, based soley on their physical features. Rare exceptions aside, if a woman's features made her an overall 5, she will never get a man that is a 8, 9, or 10. She could probably have a nice audience among ugly guys, perhaps mediocre guys at best, but the point is that she will be limited.

So, that is my first point: If you are physically out of a man's league, then seductive efforts are useless.

My second point is simply that that doesn't have to be the case. Barring deformities and such, most women can put themselves in the league of the better looking men, and then seduce them.


...giant, painful to quote part ..

In the end, I'm just trying to help. I don't ever think there's a reason to settle for mediocrity when it comes to your body. I definitely agree with you girls that you need to be confident and have a good self-esteem. No matter how anyone looks, self-esteem and happiness ARE the most important things. But...if we're talking about the mating game, then looking better is always an important thing to be working on (casually, not obsessively :p)

Ah see, we were in agreement for the most part. The impression I was getting from you was that if a woman is not a "7 or higher" she is rendered "unfuckable" until she loses weight or gets bigger boobs, outside of fetishes. Kind of a silly thing to think, right? hence why I kept disagreeing with you. I suppose you probably consider yourself to be in that high bracket (you may very well be, how would I know) and it shows in your posts.

I'm very much in agreement with the OP. No matter how awesome every aspect (other than appearance) of a woman is, if the woman isn't acceptably attractive then the average man will not be attracted to her.

Women don't need to seduce. There will always be men hitting on us.

^the bitch is right (j/k about the bitch but not the message)

anyways, i beg to differ. all of us have some beauty ideals, but hell if some girl that is below your range starts undoing your pants when ur horny i dont think any of us will be saying "no-no you cant seduce me". if she is hugely out of your preferences then yeah whatever. i would probably sooner backhand a middle aged obese woman than fuck her.

Are you saying that unless a woman knows she's allready attractive to a guy she wont have the confidence to attempt to seduce him?



If so, yeah, you're pretty much right, for alot of women.

:(

No, that's not what we're saying. We're saying that some women think that a great personality or seductive skills in women can make up for physical appearance the same way it can for men, which is incorrect. An ugly woman will not be found attractive to most men regardless of how awesome of a person she is.

No, that's not what we're saying. We're saying that some women think that a great personality or seductive skills in women can make up for physical appearance the same way it can for men, which is incorrect. An ugly woman will not be found attractive to most men regardless of how awesome of a person she is.

Yeah that makes sense.





Unless of course, the hideously ugly woman hits on a guy who's even more unattractive, and thus desperate.

Odd.

The problem is, a lot of girls seem to be too hard on themselves for no good reason. The "fuckable" category is quite broad, personality does make a difference when you get to pick a girl from this spectrum, and in a lot of cases just getting rid of that excess fat (and I mean excess, we like you to look healthy, not like a POW) will get you there. Don't kill yourself over things that you can't change, because more often than not these are the bits that make you you - we don't want every girl to look exactly the same either.

It's hard not to be insecure, though.

Even reading totse, where guys are cool and honest and funny, it's still quite an ego crush when they describe what they find 'hot'.

How could most females ever aspire to be like that image?


It's like, people slag off victoria beckham for being 'too thin' but she's still on the cover of most magazines and the pin-up for many a men. When someone says one thing but means another it's quite quite confusing.

Well, consider yourself lucky: it's easier for a woman to lose weight, get her hair done and put on some make-up than it is for a guy to grow a bigger penis.

Yeah, but when you lose weight your boobs get smaller, and saggier, and guys are like "shape is all important!"

Besides, penis sizes vary alot less than boob sizes do, and even the small ones are effective!

Hehe, I'd say they have a bit tougher. Girls' body types can be sculpted, but ass and tits can't be changed much without surgery. (Though I think girls can get really nice asses if they work out a lot and dance. I've seen skinny, petite girls that had these nice, shapely asses because they did ballet). With guys, we can basically get our bodies however we want. Penis size and height are pretty much the only unchangeable things, and penis size only comes out at the last minute, and height doesn't matter too much if you're around the average.

Poor girls.

Hehe, I'd say they have a big tougher. Girls' body types can be sculpted, but ass and tits can't be changed much without surgery. (Though I think girls can get really nice asses if they work out a lot and dance. I've seen skinny, petite girls that had these nice, shapely asses because they did ballet). With guys, we can basically get our bodies however we want. Penis size and height are pretty much the only unchangeable things, and penis size only comes out at the last minute, and height doesn't matter too much if you're around the average.

Poor girls.

I'm working on that ass, though I feel like I cant really start into dancing now, I'm too old (the ripe old age of 17, but girls here start before they're even in school).

Height is a problem for guys and girls.. I'm 5'8", shorter than the average man apparently, but I love my boots and shoes with heels, and the common 3 incher puts me at close to 6 feet, I tower over most guys my age :(

Any girl that wants a great ass needs to hit the weights. The greatest asses are seen in the weight room, no contest.

I'm working on that ass, though I feel like I cant really start into dancing now, I'm too old (the ripe old age of 17, but girls here start before they're even in school).

Height is a problem for guys and girls.. I'm 5'8", shorter than the average man apparently, but I love my boots and shoes with heels, and the common 3 incher puts me at close to 6 feet, I tower over most guys my age :(

Hahahaha yeah....but 5'8" is quite tall for a girl. 5'11" would intimidate a lot of under 6ft guys. Cause small girls are cool too..you can pick them up more easily (physically I mean here) and that's pretty cool.

lol I guess you could like sling them over your shoulder handier.

I'm working on it! Its intimidating, all the big guys strutting around with their big weights and I'm like.. I can curl 40 pound barbells, go me!

That and, I'm just not sure either what exercises to do for mah butt, or how to do them. They always seem to work my (already strong, I run quite a bit) thighs..

I'm working on it! Its intimidating, all the big guys strutting around with their big weights and I'm like.. I can curl 40 pound barbells, go me!

That and, I'm just not sure either what exercises to do for mah butt, or how to do them. They always seem to work my (already strong, I run quite a bit) thighs..

I'd be careful with using weights...they build muscle, and that can work to your disadvantage. Cardio tends to suit women much better than weights, in my experience.

I'd be careful with using weights...they build muscle, and that can work to your disadvantage. Cardio tends to suit women much better than weights, in my experience.

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2122372

bleh

So fucking true.

I'm working on it! Its intimidating, all the big guys strutting around with their big weights and I'm like.. I can curl 40 pound barbells, go me!

That and, I'm just not sure either what exercises to do for mah butt, or how to do them. They always seem to work my (already strong, I run quite a bit) thighs..

Yeah just keep getting advice from the knowledgeable members over at RI, and don't give up! Hard work will pay off when it comes to getting that sweet sweet ass. *drools*

Then you cowboy the fuck up and stop being a whiny bitch. I, and am willing to bet most other men, have insecurities of my(our) own.

And the only reason people say people like beckham are "too" skinny is because they don't want to seem shallow to their neo-enlightened peers.

I generally agree with the OP but...

once you put alcohol into the equation its a different ball park, women generally gain a few points on the 'rating system' so leagues change depending on how much someone has drunk etc.

Omg beer goggles!

If a girl is unattractive, yeah there's nothing she can do. But if she's not unattractive, if she's a really cool girl she's a lot more attractive by default. So they can't seduce, but confidence and personality can make a huge difference.

^
This is the gist of what I was attempting to say the first time.

The same thing is true for women. Regardless of what "Game" you spit, if you're ugly you wont get the girl. An average looking or slightly good looking guy however, can become attractive with his personality/money to a woman.


Women are just as "shallow" as we are.

The same thing is true for women. Regardless of what "Game" you spit, if you're ugly you wont get the girl. An average looking or slightly good looking guy however, can become attractive with his personality/money to a woman.


Somewhat false.

There are countless physically unattractive guys that can pick up women who physically seem far out of their league. It's the image and percieved social standing/power that women are attracted to. (Unless you are defining "ugly" as someone who's practically deformed, in which case, yeah)

The same thing is true for women. Regardless of what "Game" you spit, if you're ugly you wont get the girl. An average looking or slightly good looking guy however, can become attractive with his personality/money to a woman.


Women are just as "shallow" as we are.



I pretty much agree.

However, of course, there are excceptions.

I've dated some pretty fugly guys. I was most hurt ever by someone hideous looking.

Somewhat false.

There are countless physically unattractive guys that can pick up women who physically seem far out of their league. It's the image and percieved social standing/power that women are attracted to. (Unless you are defining "ugly" as someone who's practically deformed, in which case, yeah)

Oh sure, there are women like Anna Nicole Smith and many other smaller examples who will date/marry you for your money/power/success/popularity. But they wont date you for you , they're dating you for them . Women are certainly much more prone to this than men are, but only time a woman will date you for you is if she finds you physically attractive.

In simple terms, yeah if you're powerful/well-known you can score a lot, but you'll never experience "true love".



I pretty much agree.

However, of course, there are excceptions.

I've dated some pretty fugly guys. I was most hurt ever by someone hideous looking.

Women have a very broad definition of what is ugly. A lot of the times women will call a guy who is average looking, but has hair on his back ugly. Or they will call a guy who happens to be a little shorter than the average hideous.

I have honestly never seen a truly ugly guy dating a beautiful woman, unless the ugly guy had some huge advantage like a great car or lots of money or huge muscles. I would say that with a few exceptions, most women and men date within their league.

huge muscles.

Point is, any guy can get those and look badass, no matter how ugly.

Oh sure, there are women like Anna Nicole Smith and many other smaller examples who will date/marry you for your money/power/success/popularity. But they wont date you for you , they're dating you for them . Women are certainly much more prone to this than men are, but only time a woman will date you for you is if she finds you physically attractive.

In simple terms, yeah if you're powerful/well-known you can score a lot, but you'll never experience "true love".



Women have a very broad definition of what is ugly. A lot of the times women will call a guy who is average looking, but has hair on his back ugly. Or they will call a guy who happens to be a little shorter than the average hideous.

I have honestly never seen a truly ugly guy dating a beautiful woman, unless the ugly guy had some huge advantage like a great car or lots of money or huge muscles. I would say that with a few exceptions, most women and men date within their league.

Good "game" (ie. seduction skills) is enough for an ugly guy to get women out of his league. Go to a pick-up artist forum, look at some of the guys that are having success, and although most are average looking, there definitely are some "ugly" ones that are successfully getting beautiful women.

It doesn't really matter though, since being legitimately and completely ugly is very rare. Even someone as ugly as 449 could look decent if he cleaned up a little.