I was reading a little bit about pain and pain management, both physical and emotional, and it occurred to me that a life mostly on these sort of substances would be a fairly nice one - if you could defeat the twin demons of tolerance and addiction. So, my question is... how can you do this?

My idea was to:

a.) Use potentiators, to keep tolerance from rising as rapidly (since you'd be taking smaller amounts).
b.) Use tolerance-reducing drugs such as proglumide.
c.) Cycle different opioids - this one this week, another one the next.
d.) Take time off when possible.
e.) Use, when possible, drugs with similar effects (benzos?).

I'd like more ideas, and comments on the ones I've proposed. I have no idea how to actually put even those into practice. For instance, how long does it take for your tolerance to an opioid decrease? To build up? Does it differ substantially with different drugs?

The main problem I've been having is deciding when someone, if they were to do this, would take their breaks to prevent withdrawal symptoms. That is, would one week on/one week off stop someone from going through hell when stopping? From having to take ever-increasing amounts?

I'm going to go Wikipedia various opioids to see if they have anything on when physical addiction becomes problematic, but any help Totse could provide would be appreciated. :)

Sustaining an Opiate habit, of any kind, any way shape or form, will lead to your downfall in the long run. My suggestion - start smoking crack. And lots of it.

there is no way to avoid tolerance.

there has been research that shows virtually no addiction in persons who take only theraputic doses (aka doesnt get you high) of opes.

Yeah, probably so. I don't intend to do it myself. I just like to have a plan. ;) I mean, there's got to be a better way than to take ever-increasing amounts of more and more powerful drugs until you either kill yourself or go through some of the worst withdrawal symptoms known to man.

What I'm looking for is a path to moderation. If you can control yourself, there's no reason opioids can't lead to a more pleasant life. I'd just like advice on how best to achieve this moderation.

there is no way to avoid tolerance.

there has been research that shows virtually no addiction in persons who take only theraputic doses (aka doesnt get you high) of opes.
I know there's no way to avoid it completely, but what about mitigating it? Someone who potentiates and uses, say, every three days will have a better time of it than someone who injects every day.

Opiates don't help pain that well.

What you are suggesting is a pipe dream. You will either get very little relief from that, or say fuck it and just go all out.

Yeah, probably so. I don't intend to do it myself. I just like to have a plan. ;) I mean, there's got to be a better way than to take ever-increasing amounts of more and more powerful drugs until you either kill yourself or go through some of the worst withdrawal symptoms known to man.

What I'm looking for is a path to moderation. If you can control yourself, there's no reason opioids can't lead to a more pleasant life. I'd just like advice on how best to achieve this moderation.


I know there's no way to avoid it completely, but what about mitigating it? Someone who potentiates and uses, say, every three days will have a better time of it than someone who injects every day.

dont do them more than once a month. no tolerance, no addiction, no down side if you have he discipline to limit yourself.

Really? They're worked well for my pain, though it hasn't been severe. Wiki claims they're the most effective of all, but I will bow to your superior experience if you have it.

dont do them more than once a month. no tolerance, no addiction, no down side if you have he discipline to limit yourself.
That's what I'm looking for, thanks. Any other comments? Once a month is bit less than I might have hoped... of course, it depends on the dosages as well.

***

I'm having a hard time finding information on how dose correlates with dependence. Any info on this would be appreciated.

Well, it may very well work for your pain, but NOTHING helps my pain, and I've heard from many many people, including my father in law, that taking opiates is more for getting fucked up to not CARE about the pain, than to actually relieve it. I agree. But, to each their own.

But I will add this, if opiates help your pain THAT well, your pain isn't that bad to begin with, and could probably be moderated by other methods such as diet, exercise, stretching, and NSAIDs.

I see. Yeah, I'd agree with that in a way - it does relieve the pain, but not by blocking it out completely (if it's bad enough). Sometimes I can tell the pain is there, but it just doesn't bother me. It's a nice feeling, in my opinion. But I do not have chronic pain, only intermittent - so tolerance isn't much of a concern for me. I was more thinking along the lines of recreational use, for emotional problems. A bad idea, I know, but I am just curious to see if it's theoretically sustainable.

Sorry to hear you're dealing with severe pain, though... I can barely handle intestinal cramps, let alone constant pain. :(

i wont comment on all of the relevant medical information countering what you said, or say how opiates affect neuro chemistry because im sure you know all of that already.

i know you have incredible pain that requires you to achieve nerve block, so understandabley opiates dont work for you. but you cant deny the millions of people who take theraputic doses of opiates every day because it allows them to go without pain.

i wont comment on all of the relevant medical information countering what you said, or say how opiates affect neuro chemistry because im sure you know all of that already.

i know you have incredible pain that requires you to achieve nerve block, so understandabley opiates dont work for you. but you cant deny the millions of people who take theraputic doses of opiates every day because it allows them to go without pain.

Indeed, I am aware, but anyone I've known with more than a sprained ankle has said opiates do not help.

They are great if you have minor pain, wonderful in fact, but they are mainly prescribed for chronic pain, and frankly, they don't touch chronic pain.

What I am getting at is that people who could benefit from opiates don't really need them. IMHO it's a racket.

Indeed, I am aware, but anyone I've known with more than a sprained ankle has said opiates do not help.

They are great if you have minor pain, wonderful in fact, but they are mainly prescribed for chronic pain, and frankly, they don't touch chronic pain.

What I am getting at is that people who could benefit from opiates don't really need them. IMHO it's a racket.

Didn't you once say that you liked fentanyl because it allowed you to get pain relief without fucking you up? Even if you didn't, you have to admit that while opiates don't completely annihilate pain altogether, they do lessen it a little, right?

Any mention of NMDA antagonists? If you google "opiate tolerance" a bunch of them say that it can be reduced or eliminated with a good NMDA antagonist (DXM, Ketamine, PCP, epsom salt). I can't guarantee effectiveness, but just based on all the scientific looking studies I've read, it looks promising.

First of all, money. Lots of it.

75mg of DXM along with a dosing of an opiate really helps to prevent tolerance. A mix of 25-50mg of benadryl also helps to alleviate itching.

Opiates suck ass for pain relief. They make you not care. I have chronic pain that isn't an inflammatory response, and also isn't a kind of pain that opiates touch. It is cracked cartilage in my knees, along with half detached tendons. It makes me wish I had a prescription for Flexeril, that shit works wonders for my pain. I also had oral surgery to pull teeth down from the roof of my mouth to my gums and they gave me 7.5/500 I think. It produced no pain relief effects, and little other effects for the first three days, then nothing at all. Fuck opiates for pain relief.

A structured lifestyle including work(income), hobbies, social relations, good diet, etc. are all essential for sustaining a serious yet manageable opiate habit where usage is purely for enjoyment, but even then it is a huge potential fuckup to your life.

Having a life that revolves around smack addiction is hard, but imagine leading a double life where you have to act as a functional member of society aswell? It's almost like being a junkie James Bond!

Some people refuse to believe that a serious opiate habit is manageable in any way shape or form. Of course, it's completely subjective, but that viewpoint does have some element of reason behind it.

I've read about that as well (didn't know epsom salt would though, wtf?!). Potentiation combined with DXM, Valium, Ketamine, etc. seems like a good idea to at the very least reduce or slow down the buildup of tolerance and dependence.

First of all, money. Lots of it.
Care to elaborate? :p

75mg of DXM along with a dosing of an opiate really helps to prevent tolerance. A mix of 25-50mg of benadryl also helps to alleviate itching.

Opiates suck ass for pain relief. They make you not care. I have chronic pain that isn't an inflammatory response, and also isn't a kind of pain that opiates touch. It is cracked cartilage in my knees, along with half detached tendons. It makes me wish I had a prescription for Flexeril, that shit works wonders for my pain. I also had oral surgery to pull teeth down from the roof of my mouth to my gums and they gave me 7.5/500 I think. It produced no pain relief effects, and little other effects for the first three days, then nothing at all. Fuck opiates for pain relief.
They're relatively easy to obtain, make the taker feel good, and work for moderate pain at least. I had no idea pain could be severe enough to get through them... well, I did, but I always just assumed it was a matter of dosage and location. Sucks, man. :(

A structured lifestyle including work(income), hobbies, social relations, good diet, etc. are all essential for sustaining a serious yet manageable opiate habit where usage is purely for enjoyment, but even then it is a huge potential fuckup to your life.

Having a life that revolves around smack addiction is hard, but imagine leading a double life where you have to act as a functional member of society aswell? It's almost like being a junkie James Bond!

Some people refuse to believe that a serious opiate habit is manageable in any way shape or form. Of course, it's completely subjective, but that viewpoint does have some element of reason behind it.
Hahaha, this was my idea. The James Bond of Opium. :D I figured that potentiation + tolerance reduction + moderation = a good way to feel good a lot of the time. Many people need or like the way opioids make them feel, but descend into addiction, dependence, and a kind of living hell... surely there must be a way around this, I asked myself.

I think I've finally figured out a good dosing schedule. Looking up opioid withdrawal, it seems to peak in 24-72 hours and last 7-14 days total. So obviously, if the objective is to avoid heavy withdrawal symptoms, taking a single dose every 14 days would do it - because each time you'd only go through one dose's worth of withdrawal. Since a single dose every once in a while is a pretty light amount, I'd venture to say that the "withdrawal" should be over much more quickly - 7 days? 72 hours? Once every three days seems like a good bet to me. :)

I've read about that as well (didn't know epsom salt would though, wtf?!). Potentiation combined with DXM, Valium, Ketamine, etc. seems like a good idea to at the very least reduce or slow down the buildup of tolerance and dependence.


Care to elaborate? :p


They're relatively easy to obtain, make the taker feel good, and work for moderate pain at least. I had no idea pain could be severe enough to get through them... well, I did, but I always just assumed it was a matter of dosage and location. Sucks, man. :(


Hahaha, this was my idea. The James Bond of Opium. :D I figured that potentiation + tolerance reduction + moderation = a good way to feel good a lot of the time. Many people need or like the way opioids make them feel, but descend into addiction, dependence, and a kind of living hell... surely there must be a way around this, I asked myself.

I think I've finally figured out a good dosing schedule. Looking up opioid withdrawal, it seems to peak in 24-72 hours and last 7-14 days total. So obviously, if the objective is to avoid heavy withdrawal symptoms, taking a single dose every 14 days would do it - because each time you'd only go through one dose's worth of withdrawal. Since a single dose every once in a while is a pretty light amount, I'd venture to say that the "withdrawal" should be over much more quickly - 7 days? 72 hours? Once every three days seems like a good bet to me. :)

Please, mate, don't go near any opiates.

I think I've finally figured out a good dosing schedule. Looking up opioid withdrawal, it seems to peak in 24-72 hours and last 7-14 days total. So obviously, if the objective is to avoid heavy withdrawal symptoms, taking a single dose every 14 days would do it - because each time you'd only go through one dose's worth of withdrawal. Since a single dose every once in a while is a pretty light amount, I'd venture to say that the "withdrawal" should be over much more quickly - 7 days? 72 hours? Once every three days seems like a good bet to me. :)
It's not that my pain is severe, just that opiates don't work in the correct way to fix them. I need something that is a skeletal muscle relaxant for my legs, and opiates aren't so well there.

Also, there is no withdrawal for one dose every 14 days.

What about when you receptor sites shrink and are ultimately destroyed from prolonged use?

It's not that my pain is severe, just that opiates don't work in the correct way to fix them. I need something that is a skeletal muscle relaxant for my legs, and opiates aren't so well there.

Also, there is no withdrawal for one dose every 14 days.
I see. I didn't think different types of pain acted that differently!

And I know there will be no withdrawal for one dose every 14 days; I was meaning the time period needed for the body to "heal" itself (i.e. get the natural endorphins back in action?) after any opioid use.

Please, mate, don't go near any opiates.
Why's that? What about opioids? :p

honestly this is not a good idea on many levels

they really aren't even that great

I tried strong opiates once a week, it turned into opes every day by the second week.

I had alot to taper down with though so tolerance wasn't really a problem. :)

That's not true all the time. It depends on why you started using opiates in large part.

I started using heroin 18 years ago because I needed it for pain relief. The Drs wouldn't give me more than 800mg Motrin for what is a very painful degenerative bone disease. I Will be on opiates the rest of my life. Knowing that, I don't even give a second thought to addiction anymore. Why worry about it when I am already be taking them for life - it sorta becomes moot.

The tolerance though, is certainly a bitch.

I easily avoid withdrawals by NOT following my Drs dosage schedule. One every 6 hours. 7.5 mg hydro.


No, I just eat the shit out of them until they are gone, and then I have about a week to recover before I get more. My tolerance always drops right back down to normal, and though it DOES fuck up my stomach, and give me the shits, the pain isn't really much worse than normal, and though I do think it would be nice to have some opes, I don't seek them, and just wait until it's time for my next script.


But all that does is relieve my back, hip, and knees, and left leg pain. It has no effect on my right ankle AT ALL EVAR. I can be nodding my ASS off on some good brown and still hurt in my right ankle.

Man... Seriously, just go to Canada and get it amputated. Your going to have to get cut eventually, just get it over with.

I'm in the middle of getting it done here, just have a fucking ungodly amount of paper work and bullshit to go through.

I'm in the middle of getting it done here, just have a fucking ungodly amount of paper work and bullshit to go through.
Do that shit yourself lol :p

Also, not to make totse into your blog or anything, but what exactly happened to your foot?

funny you say that bout your right ankle cause as i sit here readin it my right ankle hurts like a bitch i only notice now casue i havent had any oxy in 12 hours your withdrawls cant be that bad or maybee its been so long sinse i been sober for years it seams like im in for some shit prolly wish i had a script of hydrocodone to help with the dopeskicness

Do that shit yourself lol :p

Also, not to make totse into your blog or anything, but what exactly happened to your foot?
First helterskelter real quick, no, no withdrawals at all for me because of the way I time my dosage. I go way over indicated dose, and eat em all up in a few days, and then go clean for a week or more, resulting in a base line tolerance when I get my next script.


As for my leg, I worked at a grain mill, and due to an OSHA violation, I ended up getting my leg caught in an auger, degloving most of my leg up to the knee, slicing out bone, and severing tendons. I can not "tap" my foot, and have no control what so ever over my ankle. My foot just hangs there at some fucked up angle.

Large muscle graft, with the donor site being my stomach muscles on the right side, so there is nothing there to protect my organs now, and I can suck it in and it looks all sick and freaks people out.

The skin donor site was my right thigh.

First helterskelter real quick, no, no withdrawals at all for me because of the way I time my dosage. I go way over indicated dose, and eat em all up in a few days, and then go clean for a week or more, resulting in a base line tolerance when I get my next script.


As for my leg, I worked at a grain mill, and due to an OSHA violation, I ended up getting my leg caught in an auger, degloving most of my leg up to the knee, slicing out bone, and severing tendons. I can not "tap" my foot, and have no control what so ever over my ankle. My foot just hangs there at some fucked up angle.

Large muscle graft, with the donor site being my stomach muscles on the right side, so there is nothing there to protect my organs now, and I can suck it in and it looks all sick and freaks people out.

The skin donor site was my right thigh.

hydro 4 that is a fucking joke huh? at this point it wouldnt cure a toothache for me,i would probley just be on heroin 24 7 if i was in your shoes,guess i kinda am allready i just hurt my shit at the skatepark doin these stairs

I'm working my way up the ladder, my doctor is the shit and gives me what I want when I ask for it.

But opiates don't touch the pain, they just make me not really care, even heroin.

Indeed. However the main problem with sustaining an opiate addiction in modern times it the cost. You can potentially fall into an economical dillemma, where you'll either have to prioritize your opiate life or your real life.

However, if opiates fall in price, or are legalized for addicts for a penny or two, opiate addiction will be highly sustainable. Almost all damage coming from opiate addiction is from it being illegal.

taking opiates is more for getting fucked up to not CARE about the pain, than to actually relieve it. NSAIDs.


Wow. I've never considered that until now. I think you're on to something here.. but wouldnt some opiates be better for pain rather then getting fucked up? like pure morphine?

move to the middle of bumfuck nowhere, have a nice poppy garden... extract kilos of morphine, make kilos of heroin... or just smoke opium...

you you should be good for a while....

other than that your looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars going to funding the habit... due to the insane tolerance that would happen, probably be better to do this sort of thing in the later years...

Wow. I've never considered that until now. I think you're on to something here.. but wouldnt some opiates be better for pain rather then getting fucked up? like pure morphine?


No, not really. Although I have had some experiences with fentanyl, mixed into a solution of lidocaine, injected into the regular nerve block spots I use. Immediate nerve block of course, and then after a minute, a nice calming wave of opiate goodness relaxing the rest of my body, and relieving the pain everywhere except a few spot.