Everyone says this. "Oh, E will help you expand your horizons and make you a better person." I agree that people should use it once and remember after. I am NOT talking about recreational drug use. I'm specifically talking about a consistent usage of drugs.

Let's get ahead and establish that drugs are NOT bad because it is an experience and an important aspect of life. But what does it matter if all of that is gone once you're sober? After that, the comedown is the worse and you no longer feel the same tranquility you felt before, so you feel the urge to latch on to it again to get that same feeling, you follow? Then as soon as you know it, "sober" is way too boring and "sober" is as good as being dead. Let's not get ahead of ourselves because this "sober" is natural human state which matters the most in the real world.

To me, drugs are a good thing, but taking them over and over again to get the same feelings is like lying to myself with temporary and controlled feelings. Does anyone follow?

Disagree with me or agree, express it now.

If you feel like shit coming down, you didn't have pure MDMA. Get a test kit, and a better dealer, and learn what exhausted joy is.

To me, drugs are a good thing, but taking them over and over again to get the same feelings is like lying to myself with temporary and controlled feelings. Does anyone follow?

If that's how you feel, I would suggest you stop having sex, masturbating, eating anything you enjoy the taste of, doing ANYTHING you enjoy at all, etc. You're merely causing the exact same temporary and controlled reaction that you would have from taking a drug. It's just that it is usually considered 'wrong' to get them from a controlled substance rather from a dangerous and uncontrolled situation in a controlled manner.

Or, in other words, if you don't want to 'lie' to yourself, then you should stop being human. I suggest 'dead', personally. You'd play that part FINE. :D

E is one drug I have yet to try. I have been offered it few times in the past however most of my friends or people I hang out with do not do E, so I've never really had any motivation to do it.

This may sound stupid/ignorant, but I am actually afraid of being that friendly around people. This has probably been the reason why I haven't tried E. I am extremely shy, especially around people I haven't met, and I get very people phobic, especially when I know I probably look like an idiot because I am inebriated.

I dunno though, it's something I would like to try, but with someone I am close to (of the opposite gender) --not in a real party atmosphere.

I'd like to add that even with psychedelic drugs such as LSD and mushrooms, I have not used them for any inner spiritual quests -- I wouldn't say I abused the those drugs, but I certainly did not do them to make a positive future change out of it.

With the right mood and the right pills/ drugs I don't even really come down because I can bask in enlightenment for a while. What more is there to say....?

Well first let me say, that I have never had pure MDMA, only street ecstacy. I have taken quite a few of them though, so I am convinced I have had at least some MDMA. I don't really believe E is a life changing drug though. I see it more as a party drug to have a good time on. I mean it does give you lots of euphoria and empathy with other people, but it has very little introspective value. I mean a single hit of acid or a small dose of mushrooms is way more contemplative they any E ive ever taken. I mean E seems more like a half way trippy stimulant than a true hallucinogen.

Try doing clean pills/molly with just one other person you deeply trust and have good convos with, or alone and meditate. Also, nature helps things along.


It really can change your life, though I do agree about acid and shrooms being much more introspective.


MDMA introspection comes with work, work on ones own psyche, and as usual, work is hard, and very very rewarding once it's achieved.

I think I will search up the Shulgins lecture on MDMA and therapy work with The Shadow. It seems that one can face and accept his own shadow with much more ease with MDMA, as well as 2C-B.

Here's a link, good shit too:

http://www.matrixmasters.net/blogs/?p=163

If that's how you feel, I would suggest you stop having sex, masturbating, eating anything you enjoy the taste of, doing ANYTHING you enjoy at all, etc. You're merely causing the exact same temporary and controlled reaction that you would have from taking a drug. It's just that it is usually considered 'wrong' to get them from a controlled substance rather from a dangerous and uncontrolled situation in a controlled manner.

Or, in other words, if you don't want to 'lie' to yourself, then you should stop being human. I suggest 'dead', personally. You'd play that part FINE. :D
It's true that E has to be obtained in a dangerous manner like you said, but I'm not specifically talking about E. This goes out for all consistent drugs use, legal or illegal.

No, I shouldn't stop having sex, eating good food or stop doing anything fun in life, but you can't compare drugs to sex and food. Eating a steak is sure fun, but so is heroin. But yet, I will never use heroin because I know the costs of this enjoyment. Sex and food is natural, versus most drugs besides marijuana, are chemically created solely to get us high.

Ask yourself this: Do you feel exactly the same way you do while taking E consistently (using E as an example because it is a chemical, unlike marijuana) compared to being sober? If you answered NO, then isn't this consistent E use just a way to kill the soberness? If you answered YES, then there would be no need to take E in the first place. What's the reason why you take it consistently, if you do?

Imagine in the future, there are advanced drugs, engineered to give you 100x E euphoria. There wouldn't be a purpose in living a real sober life because a real sober life is pointless compared to this super-boosted happiness. On the other hand, life is all about happiness and it is all in the mind.

Thanks for the input, this goes out to everyONE!

express it now.

You're talking about escapism through alteration of your perception. Of course thats bad, you don't deal with the problems you're escaping from and they resolve themselves eventually, into new problems because you didn't take the time to affect the change positively in relation to your situation.

But not everyone who takes drugs more often then whatever you believe to be 'normal' or 'good' is doing so to escape the way reality is.

Also, two hundred years ago the "natural-human-state" was one plagued with disease and negativity, constant worries about where the next meal comes from, a constant suffering throughout life beyond anything experienced by people living in 'the West' today. The state of mind one finds themself in today is nothing like the 'normal' state humanity experienced for the last couple thousand years; when compared, it is one of increased joy, decreased suffering.

Who are you to say what 'normal' is, when 'normal' changes every few hundred years? Some people speculate that the fate of humanity is in the alteration of neurochemistry through lifetime supplementation, and whats considered 'normal' today will then be considered to have been a state of suffering which nobody will understand how we lived with. Some believe that, eventually, genetic engineering will end the lifetime use of supplements, and 'drugs' will no longer be needed. The 'natural-human-state' will become one of constant bliss. You think that would be counter-productive to society? People are more productive happy and blissful then stressed and worried.

It comes down to the individual person and the choices they make, not how much dope they take. If a person chooses not to deal with the actual events going on in their life and to escape from it within a high, and not think their problems over, they made that choice on their own. They can still choose to deal with their shit.

It's true that E has to be obtained in a dangerous manner like you said, but I'm not specifically talking about E. This goes out for all consistent drugs use, legal or illegal.

No, I shouldn't stop having sex, eating good food or stop doing anything fun in life, but you can't compare drugs to sex and food. Eating a steak is sure fun, but so is heroin. But yet, I will never use heroin because I know the costs of this enjoyment. Sex and food is natural, versus most drugs besides marijuana, are chemically created solely to get us high.


is xanax created to get us high? No, it is created to treat patients with anxiety issues.
surely vicoden wasn't created to get us high, actually its prescribed to patients with severe pain, etc. etc.

chemicals are released when you have a meal, when you sleep, with almost anything you do, we never pay attention to them though. getting high is just releasing chemicals that make us feel good, i think everyone should get high, but in moderation.

You're talking about escapism through alteration of your perception. Of course thats bad, you don't deal with the problems you're escaping from and they resolve themselves eventually, into new problems because you didn't take the time to affect the change positively in relation to your situation.

But not everyone who takes drugs more often then whatever you believe to be 'normal' or 'good' is doing so to escape the way reality is.

Also, two hundred years ago the "natural-human-state" was one plagued with disease and negativity, constant worries about where the next meal comes from, a constant suffering throughout life beyond anything experienced by people living in 'the West' today. The state of mind one finds themself in today is nothing like the 'normal' state humanity experienced for the last couple thousand years; when compared, it is one of increased joy, decreased suffering.

Who are you to say what 'normal' is, when 'normal' changes every few hundred years? Some people speculate that the fate of humanity is in the alteration of neurochemistry through lifetime supplementation, and whats considered 'normal' today will then be considered to have been a state of suffering which nobody will understand how we lived with. Some believe that, eventually, genetic engineering will end the lifetime use of supplements, and 'drugs' will no longer be needed. The 'natural-human-state' will become one of constant bliss. You think that would be counter-productive to society? People are more productive happy and blissful then stressed and worried.

It comes down to the individual person and the choices they make, not how much dope they take. If a person chooses not to deal with the actual events going on in their life and to escape from it within a high, and not think their problems over, they made that choice on their own. They can still choose to deal with their shit.

You have some very interesting points, especially on our history some hundred years ago, and it does make alot of sense since we were not as advanced to take care of ourselves the way we can today. You also mentioned that people will use the drug to change perception rather than to escape reality.

Is there a thin line between changing perception and escaping reality? To escape reality, don't you first have to change perception?

Compare it to steroids. Do you feel the same way you do with steroids compared to being clean? The answer is obvious and now you replace steroids with E. The argument still hasn't changed. Does steroids change your perception, mentally and physically? Does steroids give you a boost in a way? Replace E again and it goes the same direction. Steroids is a pretty bad example though, but you get my point?

Back to our history some hundred years ago, humanity was plagued with poverty, disease and wars, etc. Now, we have an massive improvement on health, economy, conditions of living, etc than before. If things have gotten much better, wouldn't it be absurd to compare our society to a society that is much more undeveloped than us, as human beings?

is xanax created to get us high? No, it is created to treat patients with anxiety issues.
surely vicoden wasn't created to get us high, actually its prescribed to patients with severe pain, etc. etc.

chemicals are released when you have a meal, when you sleep, with almost anything you do, we never pay attention to them though. getting high is just releasing chemicals that make us feel good, i think everyone should get high, but in moderation.

Yep, drugs are pharmaceutical assets to pain and anxiety, and they are hella good drugs because they aid society. It's like the gas hospitals fill your lungs with before a surgery so you know, it knocks the patient to unconsciousness for obvious reasons. Come on... you can't seriously compare that to x, or coke, heroin, crack, pcp.

Plus xanax and vicodin are both prescriptioned (hint hint), and are highly abusable.

Is thin line between changing perception and escaping reality? To escape reality, don't you first have to change perception?

Did you miss my first sentence?

And no, you don't. People escape their problems in many ways ... how about a guy who has been having problems with his wife, and instead of dealing with it and fixing the situation between them, he goes fishing all the time. Then the problem keeps getting worse, and she cheats on him. He finds out, divorce and emotional bankruptcy ensue. Never had anything to do with drug use, but escapism was still at fault.

Compare it to steroids. Do you feel the same way you do with steroids compare to without steroids? The answer is obvious and now you replace steroids with E. The argument still hasn't changed. Does steroids change your perception, mentally and physically? Does steroids give you a boost in a way? Replace E again and it goes the same direction.

I have no idea WTF you are attempting to imply here, so I'll quote from your last post instead:

... but you can't compare drugs to sex and food. Eating a steak is sure fun, but so is heroin.

But you just made that comparison. And it does work like that. Two hundred years ago, you couldn't eat that steak, you would have most likely been poor and stupid. You would have been hungry and felt like shit all the time. The ability to have steak whenever we want and feel full and happy was unthinkable back then, and now is reality. You think that constant bliss is abnormal and counter-productive, but thats only because living with certain degree of suffering in your life is considered 'normal'. Maybe in two hundred years, a constant state of bliss will be considered 'normal'.

And like I said, its the person, not the substance. If I really, and I mean really enjoyed steak, and decided to spend my life sitting around eating steak after steak, you wouldn't consider that counter-productive? Its natural! No, it would be counter-productive because I would be choosing to waste opportunities for life by eating steak instead.

Just like with the above, some may choose to spend their life's sitting around shooting up heroin. Thats counter-productive for the same reason, not because its heroin, but because the person chose to do nothing else with their life.

Is heroin so unnatural? No more then eating a steak is. A long time ago, someone figured out they can raise cows. Someone figured out you can cut them a special way to get nice cuts of meat. Someone learned if you cook the meat, you don't get sick. Someone figured out if you freeze it, it lasts longer. Sure, it comes from a cow, but thats sure as hell not a natural process. Heroin is no different, opium comes from a naturally occuring plant, the morphine is extracted, and then a chemical reaction creates heroin.

And I wouldn't doubt that two hundred years ago some people would have jumped at the opportunity to waste their life's eating steak after steak, but that would have been their choice. Not dependent on the substance in question.

But yet, I will never use heroin because I know the costs of this enjoyment. Sex and food is natural, versus most drugs besides marijuana, are chemically created solely to get us high.

How is THC not a chemical? How is morphine not naturally occuring? How is sex not just as addictive as drugs, to certain people?

THC is a chemical, morphine occurs in poppies, and some people are addicted to sex/masturbation. Again, it comes down to the individual person and their choices.

Imagine in the future, there are advanced drugs, engineered to give you 100x E euphoria. There wouldn't be a purpose in living a real sober life because a real sober life is pointless compared to this super-boosted happiness.

No, the definition of 'sober life' would simply change from one of limited suffering and bliss, to one of constant bliss. How is this any less pointless then a life filled with suffering? How is a life including suffering any more 'worthwhile' then one filled with constant bliss?

And how would living in a state of constant bliss cause you to be any less productive?

-Edited to respond to the below quote.

If things have gotten much better, wouldn't it be absurd to compare our society to a society that is much more undeveloped than us, as human beings?

No more absurd then it is to compare a blissful state with one of suffering, and say that the one of suffering is better.

Do you think that our culture wont be looked down upon as undeveloped, as human beings and societies? Humanity is still very primitive and very shit-filled.

is xanax created to get us high? No, it is created to treat patients with anxiety issues.
surely vicoden wasn't created to get us high, actually its prescribed to patients with severe pain, etc. etc.


Actually, drugs 'treat' the patients by getting them high. So ya, those drugs were created to get people high.

Did you miss my first sentence?

And no, you don't. People escape their problems in many ways ... how about a guy who has been having problems with his wife, and instead of dealing with it and fixing the situation between them, he goes fishing all the time. Then the problem keeps getting worse, and she cheats on him. He finds out, divorce and emotional bankruptcy ensue. Never had anything to do with drug use, but escapism was still at fault.



I have no idea WTF you are attempting to imply here, so I'll quote from your last post instead:



But you just made that comparison. And it does work like that. Two hundred years ago, you couldn't eat that steak, you would have most likely been poor and stupid. You would have been hungry and felt like shit all the time. The ability to have steak whenever we want and feel full and happy was unthinkable back then, and now is reality. You think that constant bliss is abnormal and counter-productive, but thats only because living with certain degree of suffering in your life is considered 'normal'. Maybe in two hundred years, a constant state of bliss will be considered 'normal'.

And like I said, its the person, not the substance. If I really, and I mean really enjoyed steak, and decided to spend my life sitting around eating steak after steak, you wouldn't consider that counter-productive? Its natural! No, it would be counter-productive because I would be choosing to waste opportunities for life by eating steak instead.

Just like with the above, some may choose to spend their life's sitting around shooting up heroin. Thats counter-productive for the same reason, not because its heroin, but because the person chose to do nothing else with their life.

Is heroin so unnatural? No more then eating a steak is. A long time ago, someone figured out they can raise cows. Someone figured out you can cut them a special way to get nice cuts of meat. Someone learned if you cook the meat, you don't get sick. Someone figured out if you freeze it, it lasts longer. Sure, it comes from a cow, but thats sure as hell not a natural process. Heroin is no different, opium comes from a naturally occuring plant, the morphine is extracted, and then a chemical reaction creates heroin.

And I wouldn't doubt that two hundred years ago some people would have jumped at the opportunity to waste their life's eating steak after steak, but that would have been their choice. Not dependent on the substance in question.



How is THC not a chemical? How is morphine not naturally occuring? How is sex not just as addictive as drugs, to certain people?

THC is a chemical, morphine occurs in poppies, and some people are addicted to sex/masturbation. Again, it comes down to the individual person and their choices.



No, the definition of 'sober life' would simply change from one of limited suffering and bliss, to one of constant bliss. How is this any less pointless then a life filled with suffering? How is a life including suffering any more 'worthwhile' then one filled with constant bliss?

And how would living in a state of constant bliss cause you to be any less productive?

-Edited to respond to the below quote.



No more absurd then it is to compare a blissful state with one of suffering, and say that the one of suffering is better.

Do you think that our culture wont be looked down upon as undeveloped, as human beings and societies? Humanity is still very primitive and very shit-filled.

I think you're a little off topic. I'm not really debating how productive people are on drugs. People who eat steak all day are probably overweight and it has nothing to do with consistent drug use. You're just using that as an example to show that it is the productivity that counts, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the effects and mentality of drugs as of the present. Sure, in the FUTURE, we might be very very blissful compared to the present but that is not what I'm trying to get at. I agree, that there are people who drop E to relax, just like fishing, but it's difficult to compare those 2 because fishing does not give the same effects and dependency the way drugs do, neither does steak.

Great, now I lost where I was again. I need to take a nap.

Actually, drugs 'treat' the patients by getting them high. So ya, those drugs were created to get people high.

no see getting high is recreational use. the patients are high but thats a side effect of the drug.

People who eat steak all day are probably overweight and it has nothing to do with consistent drug use.

People who eat all day miss out on the rest of life because they choose to spend all their time eating.

People who shoot up all day miss out on the rest of life because they choose to spend all their time shooting up.

My point is that people who choose to spend their whole life high, obsessing over the high, are no more retarded then someone who obsesses over food, or sex. It has nothing to do with the actual activity (IE, drug use) but with the choices the person has made themselves.

I'm talking about the effects and mentality of drugs as of the present. Sure, in the FUTURE, we might be very very blissful compared to the present but that is not what I'm trying to get at.

What exactly are you getting at, then? What is your point?

To quote the opening post:

But what does it matter if all of that is gone once you're sober? After that, the comedown is the worse and you no longer feel the same tranquility you felt before, so you feel the urge to latch on to it again to get that same feeling, you follow? Then as soon as you know it, "sober" is way too boring and "sober" is as good as being dead. Let's not get ahead of ourselves because this "sober" is natural human state which matters the most in the real world.

To me, drugs are a good thing, but taking them over and over again to get the same feelings is like lying to myself with temporary and controlled feelings.

Again, 'sobriety', our 'natural-state' as you have termed it, is itself not a constant thing. Everything influences it besides drugs, everything throughout your daily routine. Culture and society change it, as our 'natural-state' is much different then the same state hundreds of years ago.

The whole desire to alter our perception stems from our living in a state which includes suffering! Even birds and monkeys intentionally eat fermented fruits to get drunk, its natural. We seem to desire a state of constant bliss.

My question is: why are you opposed to that?

I have already agreed that escapism through constant drug use has a great negative impact on a persons life. But what about the people who actually deal with their problems, and take something quite often? Who still live a full life, and just happen to enjoy a different state-of-consciousness? What is the problem with their constant drug use?

I agree, that there are people who drop E to relax, just like fishing, but it's difficult to compare those 2 because fishing does not give the same effects and dependency the way drugs do, neither does steak.

Sure they do! I already explained how someone could escape their problems by fishing or eating them away. Or even sex. The problem is not the activity they are doing(taking drugs, fishing, sex, etc), not the substances they are consuming (food, drugs, pussy juices, etc) but the choice the person has made to obsess over that one thing and ignore the rest of life.

It is entirely possible for someone to enjoy building models as much as I enjoy smoking pot. It is entirely possible they get the same satisfaction, relaxation, and enjoyment out of their activity, as I do from whatever drug I happen to enjoy. It is entirely possible for them to become as dependent and reliant on their hobby to escape reality, as a drug user is on escaping through drug-use. And it is entirely possible for someone who constantly uses drugs, to actually deal with their problems and live a full, productive life, and not use them to escape from those problems.

What I gather from your posts, tells me you think constant drug use must be a form of escapism, and that is why you are opposed to it. If that is not your position, please confirm exactly what your position is. If that is your position, you are wrong.

:)

(using E as an example because it is a chemical, unlike marijuana)

What? You think plant matter just magically gets you high?

E is one drug I have yet to try. I have been offered it few times in the past however most of my friends or people I hang out with do not do E, so I've never really had any motivation to do it.

This may sound stupid/ignorant, but I am actually afraid of being that friendly around people. This has probably been the reason why I haven't tried E. I am extremely shy, especially around people I haven't met, and I get very people phobic, especially when I know I probably look like an idiot because I am inebriated.


Dude, you sound like the exact person who'd benefit from rolling: mdma WILL increase your self-esteem, make you more compassionate and boost your confidence... while you're on it... All of those shy feelings will simply not exist while you're fucked.
When I'm at a rave, I'll often find myself chatting to random strangers about total bollocks usually related to the fact that they're on it too. In fact, sometimes I talk more to strangers than my friends I go out with. They say alcohol is the social lubricant; I say it's md.

Yeah E will change your life, so will jumping off a bridge and slamming your head into the pavement, not much different from what e will do for you.

This whole thing really pissed me off, and I was about to go on a tirade, but obbe pretty much covered everything I was going to say. Thanks obbe.

Ahhhhh, sweet, delicious ... recognition ... SLHUUURP.

lol ;)

It just really pissed me off too