Bible 101:How Do You Know That [NT] Verse Was Translated Right?

[jackketch]

Well the simple answer is YOU DON'T.

Why do I raise this point?

Time after time I see Xtians and Atheists here use some bible verse or another as some kinda theological A-Bomb. As if one verse or a string of often misconstrued verses torn out of their context (a favourite Xtian trick that one, what real theologians call 'Knight Jump Exegesis') will prove something or the other.

SO I thought I'd give you a little example to illustrate just how shaky the translation of any bible verse might be.

No don't worry, no indepth discussion of the aorist(αοριστός) tense of koine or that kinda crap.

Lets just take something ever so simple....lets translate a little bit of American-English into British/International-English.

Surely no biggy, huh?

Ya think?

(Infact 'Ya think' is a good example in itself. A poor translator might know its a variation on 'You think?' but without exposure to some American culture he might well miss the important sarcastic undertone).

Ok how about a line from every mother's cookie recipe?

"1 cup shortening"

People do you realise how difficult that simple (to every american) instruction is to 'translate' so its understood in the rest of the English speaking world?

Just the word 'shortening' alone is not easy. It means absolutely nothing to a Brit! Sure you could look up what it is but translating it "1 cup of semisolid fat used in food preparation, especially baked goods, and is so called because it inhibits the formation of long gluten strands in wheat-based doughs, giving them a "short" texture" is clumsy to say the least!

So a good translator will try and find , in this case, an equivilant word, brand or phrase.

For those interested, you could translate it 'solid vegetable fat like Cookeen® or Trex®' which is still clumsy but accurate and fairly understandable to a non-americano.

But the difficulties don't end there! Americans persist in using an arcane and highly inaccurate measure of volume for cooking whereas most of the rest of the world uses some form of measurement of weight.

This is where it gets really tricky. A poor translator would simply assume 'cup' meant a cup as in the drinking tea sort. A good translator would know and look up the standard conversion.

Problem is thats still very inaccurate. About the only accurate-ish way of doing it is to get an american measuring cup and then weigh out the shortening/flour/whatever it holds. This of course assuming the original author has told you whether it should be a 'heaped' or 'level' cup.

Standard conversion for a cup of butter is about 226.8 gram but of course in reality it'll probably be nearer 240g. No I'm not anal enough to go into the kitchen and check it. Its just an illustration.

So a poor translator would translate it as 'a cup', the good as' 226.8g' and the accurate would go for '230g [+/- 5-10 g].

Do you begin to see how tricky, how nigh on impossible it is to translate something if you aren't native with both cultures?

And remember this is English to English we're talking, simply two branches of the same living language.

But Koine is a dead language, the aramaic jesus spoke is to all intents dead (although forms of it are still spoken). We don't have anyone alive who lived in first century Israel.

So Jesus words were (probably) spoken in aramaic, then years later recorded in Koine copied and recopied for 3 hundred years, 'edited' (ie Forged and generally fucked around with) the originals lost, and then, if we're lucky, translated into english.

Usual guessimate is that the first of the gospels or proto gospels was written at least 40 years after Jesus.

Another little anecdote to illustrate. A while back I met a girlfriend of 15 years previous. I thought i could remember everything important about our relationship back then. How we ended up in bed, when we first had sex, etc etc

On EVERY single count i was wrong, and not just a bit wrong. She had kept a diary.

And that was just after 15 years. Ok, some Xtians will argue that Jesus made such an impression on people that they could accurately remember it after almost half a century but that is really just wishful thinking.

No matter how good a translator he can never get it 100% right.

SO what? What does it matter? Yeah grammes of shortening more or less?

Well

try these

"Truly truly I say unto you, today you will be with me in Paradise"

"Truly truly I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise"

"And the Word was God"

"And the Word was a God"

Now do you understand how shaky a ground you're on when you 'fight' with verses?

Oh and btw all those examples above are valid ways of translating the relevant verse.

[Hare_Geist]

There is a similar ambiguity in the fragmented works of Heraclitus. “Although the eternal Logos is valid always men are unable to comprehend it”, which can be translated as either “although the eternal Logos is valid, always men are unable to comprehend it”, or “although the eternal Logos is valid always, men are unable to comprehend it”. The absence of commas within ancient Greek is bad enough, it doesn’t help when you only have fragments or cannot ask the author his intended meaning. Waving translations of the Bible around authoritatively, then, is, like you said, absurd. However, Christians often get around this by the rather annoying proclamation that they just know God is guiding them toward the correct interpretation. You can’t really argue with that, you just have to walk away.

Originally Posted by Hare_Geist

There is a similar ambiguity in the fragmented works of Heraclitus. “Although the eternal Logos is valid always men are unable to comprehend it”, which can be translated as either “although the eternal Logos is valid, always men are unable to comprehend it”, or “although the eternal Logos is valid always, men are unable to comprehend it”. The absence of commas within ancient Greek is bad enough, it doesn’t help when you only have fragments or cannot ask the author his intended meaning. Waving translations of the Bible around authoritatively, then, is, like you said, absurd. However, Christians often get around this by the rather annoying proclamation that they just know God is guiding them toward the correct interpretation. You can’t really argue with that, you just have to walk away.

The bible is bullshit.

[H a r o l d]

Originally Posted by Fonzy

The bible is bullshit.

highlight'd for truth

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by Fonzy

The bible is bullshit.

Which is an ignorant a comment as the 'the bible is the unerring word of God'.

[truckfixr]

Originally Posted by jackketch

Which is an ignorant a comment as the 'the bible is the unerring word of God'.

Shouldn't you use a when you are being sarcastic?

[BrokeProphet]

Excellent thread. I think everyone can see how easily it gets fucked when a person genuinely tries to translate it word for word...you did not even touch upon blatent twisting of the translation to one's own end.

If I may play the devil's advocate for a moment: It was a great undertaking translating the bible from these languages after so many years, and would have been impossible to do with 100% accuracy without the help of God. Praise God. You have just demonstrated one of his miracles and encountered my mental brick wall. Ouch!

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by H a r o l d

highlight'd for truth

I am sooo tempted to add "infracted for spam."

Back to topic--jack, wonderful post. And let us not forget all the chances for screwing up the translation from Greek into Elizabethan English into modern English.

[jackketch]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

I am sooo tempted to add "infracted for spam."

Back to topic--jack, wonderful post. And let us not forget all the chances for screwing up the translation from Greek into Elizabethan English into modern English.

True although modern bible translations all go straight back to the greek and don't 're-translate' the King James.

But accuracy always suffers for readabilty (which is part of the reason the NIV sucks theological donkey cock).

[boozehound420]

And yet majority of evangelical christians teach the bible as literal fact, as they see it in the king james version. Down to the fine details. To them the thought of translation doesnt even cross there mind.

Isnt the quran even harder to translate, yet the fundie islamics follow it word for word aswell. Adding illiteracy into the mix and you have a select few people manipulating billions of people through translation. Ow wait, majority of christians can read and write and it doesnt make a difference.