Atheist/theist conversation

[KikoSanchez]

Atheist: So you think god created the universe?
Theist: Yes, where do you think it came from?
Atheist: It didn't come from anything, it just exists.
Theist: Haha, so you think it just came from nothing?
Atheist: Well don't you believe god "came from nothing?"
Theist: No, god is eternal.
Atheist: The universe is eternal.

So, where does this conversation go from here? Theist says ""?

[azalie]

Probably something along the lines of

"God is a being, being have the ability to create whereas universes are created"

I don't know since I'm an athiest but someone reply. I'm curious.

<3

Theist says well research has shown the universe to be a. in a state of oscillation which means it had to come from somewhere or b. that it is ever-expanding which implies some sort of point of explosion.
Atheist says study up on papers and records from affluent metaphysicists/quantum physicists which show virtual particles to come into and out of existence using borrowed energy from the entire system. These could be the cause. But... I don't know for sure and neither do you.

[nshanin]

Prove it with your atheist empiricism?

God loves you, how could you be so cruel as to reject God's love? Therefore God exists.

Originally Posted by shitty wok

God loves you, how could you be so cruel as to reject God's love? Therefore God exists.

proof?

[BrokeProphet]

A thiest will respond that we logically know the unicorn is invisible b/c we cannot see it, we have faith that it is pink.

There is no where esle for this argument to go. Both sides must contend that they DO NOT HAVE a real answer.

The big bang is AN event; there is nothing to suggest it is or is not THE (first) event.


I just found this quote, I rather like it:
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish

Originally Posted by shitty wok

God loves you, how could you be so cruel as to reject God's love? Therefore God exists.

This seems like a perfectly sound argument...

[nshanin]

Originally Posted by nshanin

Prove it with your atheist empiricism?

How would the atheist respond to this one?

[Hare_Geist]

The definition of the universe as everything that ever was, is or will be can easily encompass theism, but only on the condition that ‘universe’ is merely a nomenclature for a collection of objects, because then God can be designated the very first object in the collection or series. So for an atheist to say the universe always was in any meaningful sense, he will have to demonstrate that it is a single unconscious substance or process, akin to Spinozism, for example, and that we are all one. If, on the other hand, he does consent to the notion of the universe being a mere nomenclature, then he will be on just about the same footing as the theist: the first object always was or came from nothingness, but something cannot come from nothing, or so it is said, and if there was an infinite amount of time before this time, an always, then this moment shouldn’t be because one would first have to run through an unlimited amount of time before reaching it (this seems to me to have more to do with analytic thought and our mathematical conception of the universe than with the universe itself). The difference here is that the atheist does not speculate about the nature of the first object, assign consciousness to it, or anthropomorphize it. Either way, I do not believe my summary does justice to the topic of cosmology, that it is far more complicated than it at first seems (simple divisions of finite/infinite, something/nothing, won’t do), but that it’s a start for this topic at least.

The bible is bullshit.

Theist: But... but... uhhh... It is more likely something created the universe!

Atheist: No it isn't. Various scientific hypothesis, such as the string theory and the big crunch theory explain an infinite universe. The universe is made up of matter and energy, forces which we can detect and which are rather simple. On the other hand, God is an infinitely complex, illogical, unreasonable, and unrational being. What forces led to the creation of such an infinitely complex being, so complex that we cannot even comprehend it? The idea of God is simply contradictory, we cannot postulate that an infinitely complex being came before a simple one, as all complex things come from more simpler versions. Therefore, it is more likely that the universe is infinite than it is that God exists and He is infinite.

[Hexadecimal]

Suppose you happen to know that the name of God means 'Necessary Being'?

It doesn't matter if it makes logical sense. Take a good look at life and it won't take long to realize that logic is useless in everything but math. Math is quite useful, though; it can explain every single working of the universe except how it came to be. Now, suppose the universe IS eternal (no creator). Suppose then that it has inerrant laws that govern the existence of everything within it (you know, things like gravity, inertia, entropy, etc). Isn't the Universe now fitting the precise definition of God? That which was not created and governs all else?

Ah, but why flow with the Law when you can keep making excuses to try things your way? It might have something to do with pride...after all, accepting that everything that exists will continue no matter what happens to you isn't all that exciting.

[nshanin]

But God is flamboyant, he has no laws that he must always follow and has an innate consciousness that controls his decisions. What about the universe implies an innate livelihood that continues to manifest itself? Is it this chemical process we call life? Perhaps we are like the Flatlanders, looking upon the universe and seeing normality where there is only the incomprehensible.

I guess the universe really is God after all.

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by nshanin

But God is flamboyant, he has no laws that he must always follow and has an innate consciousness that controls his decisions. What about the universe implies an innate livelihood that continues to manifest itself? Is it this chemical process we call life? Perhaps we are like the Flatlanders, looking upon the universe and seeing normality where there is only the incomprehensible.

I guess the universe really is God after all.

Well, God gets to do whatever the fuck he wants to do without question...that's kind of why we call it God instead of servant. We don't get to hurl giant balls of matter through space at tremendous speeds...we get to ride on them (and perhaps enjoy the ride so long as we're alive), but we don't get to do much else in that frame of reference. Truth is, we don't get to do much of anything...we can either serve our pride or serve God. Now, serving God really isn't all that bad. He lets us try anything and everything, forgives every fuck-up we've ever made and will make, and will even give us intuitive thoughts from time to time to help guide us in the right direction until we've learned.

Serving pride though...well that just blows. Sure, you get to continually make the same mistakes over and over again and still think you're perfect. After awhile though, you start to feel like there's no real reason to live except to get others to feel like there's no real reason to live.

[Rust]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

It doesn't matter if it makes logical sense. Take a good look at life and it won't take long to realize that logic is useless in everything but math.

Yet you're implicitly using logic to communicate that ridiculous claim to us. How ironic.

Isn't the Universe now fitting the precise definition of God? That which was not created and governs all else?

You mean your 'precise definition of a god'. Most people would say that a god should be conscious, preferably benevolent.

Though I don't doubt the pathetic rationalizations you can pull to justify calling the universe "conscious".

Yes. Let's call the universe god! I simply don't believe in any other gods but the universe. Great. You've achieved nothing.

It might have something to do with pride...after all, accepting that everything that exists will continue no matter what happens to you isn't all that exciting.

And the atheist doesn't accept just that when (if) he believes there is no afterlife? If I die, I believe the universe will continue without out me; quite fine actually.

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

Serving pride though...well that just blows. Sure, you get to continually make the same mistakes over and over again and still think you're perfect. After awhile though, you start to feel like there's no real reason to live except to get others to feel like there's no real reason to live.

Speak for yourself, friend. I don't believe in God and I know I'm nowhere near being perfect. True I don't think our lives are special or meaningful, but I don't force my views on others. Thinking that we're made in the image of some perfect being is egotistical. You think we're divine? We're just fucking monkeys, how's that for being proud?

I have no idea what you mean when you say we get to continually make the same mistakes. Care to elaborate, maybe give some examples?

Originally Posted by Rust

Though I don't doubt the pathetic rationalizations you can pull to justify calling the universe "conscious".

Are you a part of the universe? Are you conscious? We are just as much a part of the universe as the inanimate. We are the consciousness of the universe. It's self aware, man.

But I do agree that calling the universe God is just pointlessly defining God into existence.

[Rust]

Originally Posted by joecaveman

Are you a part of the universe? Are you conscious? We are just as much a part of the universe as the inanimate. We are the consciousness of the universe. It's self aware, man.

How fucking groovy man!