i believe in souls and an afterlife. i dont believe any religion is correct. i dont believe in hell. i tend not to believe in a "god" in any typical sense, though i obviously cant be sure of this. id like to think "god" is simply the energy that is all of existence, on all planes of reality.

Putting it simply....spiritualist. The one religion that makes any sort of sense to a person with a brain stem.

...ilikedots.....

You explained in the first post what you are. No need to label it, that'd just be a word.

Hell, make up your own word for it. Doesn't change the meaning.

I pretty much believe the same typa thing.

Although I think there is a hell of sorts. Not so much something you suffer for all eternity but just being in a state of confusion and fear. I've experienced things like this in my life and I would describe it as hell. But thanks to my ability to reason and understand I can come out of it.
When you die and you don't have a reasoning brain and you are just consciousness, does your amount of fear and love remain a constant, consistent experience?
In other words, if you fear all your life and never confront that fear, is that what you experience in the afterlife?

Think about it. Pretty much all negativity stems from fear in life. A person who kills, rapes, steals etc may do that as a result of fear. People will declare "they are going to hell". Maybe that's because of the level of fear they have in life, not because they are being "punished".

Putting it simply....spiritualist.

I wish more threads in this forum would focus around spirituality and not religion. Then it wouldn't suck so much balls.

Hey, there ARE some logically able minds in this forum. And I completely agree with the above post. But yea, I believe just about the same thing...actually thats very close if not exactly what I believe...I'm starting to like this place again.

...ilikedots.....

You are a defunct theist...

Do any of you really think you would have any concept of a soul or afterlife were you not told of these things by theism?

If you were raised by wolves, I seriously doubt the idea of a soul would be one that was natural to you.

You do not agree with organized religions and are just spiritual but you are spiritual b/c of the organized religions. Which means...

You are a defunct theist.

im sure this will cause some drama but,

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Uh....cool.

Do any of you really think you would have any concept of a soul or afterlife were you not told of these things by theism?

If you were raised by wolves, I seriously doubt the idea of a soul would be one that was natural to you.

but how can you know this? with the level of intelligence we posses, surely we would wonder what happens when we die, and seeing as humans came up with ideas about the afterlife on their own anyway, and its been genetically embedded into our minds, im sure some people would come up with new ideas about what comes after death.

Except when evidence is expected, in that case absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. If I look in an empty room and don't see you, that is evidence that you are absent from that empty room.

what makes you think there is supposed to be concrete evidence of a god/soul/afterlife?

That would depend on exactly what model of the god/soul/afterlife you are using.

If you think that consciousness persists after death, then I would expect the studies of consciousness to support the notion that it can exist without matter.

you do realize we know very little about how the universe works, right? we continually discover things we thought to be impossible are possible, and continually discover things we never even dreamed of are real.

we may know a lot, but compared to what there is left to be learned, we're only just getting started.

dont take what im saying as some crazy new-age bullshit. what i said doesnt even have to be applied to anything "supernatural".

That would depend on exactly what model of the god/soul/afterlife you are using.

oh yeah. what if all our ideas about these things are wrong? what if maybe for whatever reason, the way things happen to work, is such that we cant/arent supposed to know these things? what if we are all here, doing and thinking what we are, without divine help, because we chose to do so?

i really think its arrogant and just plain asinine to assume we know enough about the universe to say "this is how it works".

There are some things we know a lot about, and other things we know little about. If the evidence points to one particular model, then that is most likely the best (most correct) one.

oh yeah. what if all our ideas about these things are wrong? what if maybe for whatever reason, the way things happen to work, is such that we cant/arent supposed to know these things? what if we are all here, doing and thinking what we are, without divine help, because we chose to do so?

i really think its arrogant and just plain asinine to assume we know enough about the universe to say "this is how it works".

It's arrogant to believe in things without any good reason to. It's quite possible the flying spaghetti monster is real, but there's just no good reason to believe it is true. There is no evidence that refutes the FSM because the FSM actually messes up the scientist's results.

Some ridiculous theories are entirely immune from it scientific examination. I won't believe in them because there is no evidence to support them.

I am always open to evidence that would change my mind. I am open to believing in the afterlife if evidence was presented, you don't seem open to not believe in the afterlife. So who is more arrogant?

we both have our reasons. i suppose its only fair to say we're both arrogant.

Do any of you really think you would have any concept of a soul or afterlife were you not told of these things by theism?


I find it interesting how the various cultures throughout the world perceive the 'divine ground' differently, yet are strikingly similar. It's also interesting how Judeo-Christian religions, who have such a flawed concept of reality, try to assimilate differing cultures into listening to their God instead of the God within All.

"we both have our reasons."

Yeah, and yours suck. Sorry, but that's how it is.

"i suppose its only fair to say we're both arrogant."

If he's being arrogant about this, I'd say he's justified.

If you look at the basic concept of afterlife it is very primitive and simple.

The main points are this: Obey societies rules and good things happen to your ghost when you die...Fail to obey societies rules and bad things happen to your ghost when you die.

This seems to really be more of a tool for social order than anything else. Humans PLURAL came up with the ideas about the afterlife. No ONE man came up with this concept. YOUR beliefs in the afterlife and spirit ARE predecated upon the beliefs of MANY, MANY others.

Making you a defunct theist. You can call yourself whatever you like, spiritualist, new age, whatever....in reality, however, you are a defunct theist.

I find it interesting how the various cultures throughout the world perceive the 'divine ground' differently, yet are strikingly similar.

I agree it is interesting. What is more interesting is how all cultures who possess divine beliefs have had a society first and a formal language second.

Humans are societal and inquisitive creatures. We NEED to know certain things. The unknown is made "known" to humans through theism, and nearly all of these theistic concepts involve social order. This is what is strikingly similar about the different beliefs, theism = social order.

It is really just a step in the evolution of a society and a culture.

If you look at the basic concept of afterlife it is very primitive and simple.

The main points are this: Obey societies rules and good things happen to your ghost when you die...Fail to obey societies rules and bad things happen to your ghost when you die.

This seems to really be more of a tool for social order than anything else. Humans PLURAL came up with the ideas about the afterlife. No ONE man came up with this concept. YOUR beliefs in the afterlife and spirit ARE predecated upon the beliefs of MANY, MANY others.

Making you a defunct theist. You can call yourself whatever you like, spiritualist, new age, whatever....in reality, however, you are a defunct theist.

your concept of the afterlife doesnt even cover all the religions, let alone random individuals beliefs like my own.

at some point in time, some single human being had to be the first one to ponder an afterlife.

aside from where our beliefs differ, where i tend to think there is an afterlife, i still think you are correct in what youre talking about. i dont disagree with you.

If you look at the basic concept of afterlife it is very primitive and simple.

The main points are this: Obey societies rules and good things happen to your ghost when you die...Fail to obey societies rules and bad things happen to your ghost when you die.

This seems to really be more of a tool for social order than anything else.


People like to use the 'word of god' to exert fear and control over their society. But this isn't the word of god, this is the word of a man who is driven by lies and greed.

What I think a 'hell' would be is if someone lived their life with guilt and fear they would feel more of a connection with those 'negative' vibrations and his soul would recycle into those 'negative' energies.

If you murder someone will you go to hell? Depends on how your unique vibrations react to it.

my concept of hell is what ive heard from several near-death-experience survivors.

you will feel how your actions effected others, through their perspectives. for example, if you punched someone in the face, you would experience all the interaction between you and that person from their perspective. physical, emotional. i would assume it works both ways. you would feel all interaction you had with all people, from their perspectives.

ive only heard of that stuff happening in a couple near death stories though. maybe most people who have near death experiences arent.. dead enough or something?

eh. afterlife stuff is certainly beyond our knowledge for now. its better to not waste too much time or energy guessing at it. we are here in this world, to live in this world.

People like to use the 'word of god' to exert fear and control over their society. But this isn't the word of god, this is the word of a man who is driven by lies and greed.

What I think a 'hell' would be is if someone lived their life with guilt and fear they would feel more of a connection with those 'negative' vibrations and his soul would recycle into those 'negative' energies.

If you murder someone will you go to hell? Depends on how your unique vibrations react to it.

Problem is...

I can see no reason why an all powerful God wants humans to go to heaven or hell. I can see no reason why my energies will be or should be recycled (especially if it keeps my soul intact, and if it does not, who cares?). The only arguments I have heard have been predicated upon non-empirical horseshit, ultimately having to have too many illogical assumptions to prove anything.

I CLEARLY see a reason why someone would want another person to believe any of the, do good here and your ghost parties in the afterlife bullshit.

Problem is...

I can see no reason why an all powerful God wants humans to go to heaven or hell. I can see no reason why my energies will be or should be recycled (especially if it keeps my soul intact, and if it does not, who cares?).

Nothing last ...But Nothing is lost.. it only moves on..


The only arguments I have heard have been predicated upon non-empirical horseshit, ultimately having to have too many illogical assumptions to prove anything.


God is in us and of us, we are in the universe and the universe is in us.


I CLEARLY see a reason why someone would want another person to believe any of the, do good here and your ghost parties in the afterlife bullshit.

Power and Greed.

Nothing last ...But Nothing is lost.. it only moves on..

God is in us and of us, we are in the universe and the universe is in us.

Both of these statements can be found on a fortune cookie, I am sure.

Theism serves a twofold purpose:
People are afraid of the unknown. Death is largest and scariest unknown. So...

1. Easing inquiring minds about the unknown.
2. Social order and control.

I find no other explanation of theism that makes as much sense as the two things I have outlined here. Your vague (no offense) fortune cookie statements do not offer a more satisfactory explanation.

My original point is still this: Nobody who is spiritual today is spiritual through their own self discovery. Everyone to some degree has been infected with a meme of theism.

My original point is still this: Nobody who is spiritual today is spiritual through their own self discovery. Everyone to some degree has been infected with a meme of theism.

They are only words, they can not truly illustrate the experience.
The map of the mountain is but a glimpse of the wisdom therein, you must climb the mountain if you wish to bring forth understanding.

The words are a medium to finding understanding within your self.

They are only words, they can not truly illustrate the experience.
The map of the mountain is but a glimpse of the wisdom therein, you must climb the mountain if you wish to bring forth understanding.

The words are a medium to finding understanding within your self.

The same can be said of horoscopes and fortune cookies. Vague and over-generalized statements allow for the reader to read and see what they want. This will lead to self reflection and a probably a greater understanding of one's own motivations and such.

What this does not do is illustrate an argument to my original point. You know what you know b/c someone else told you. If you really had a soul someone would NOT need to tell you, you have one.

You know what you know b/c someone else told you. If you really had a soul someone would NOT need to tell you, you have one.

But the information is out there for us to find, or the information finds us. Everyone applies this information in their own direction.

Do you think it would be 'better' without these ideas? Like you said it easies inquiring minds about the unknown, wouldn't religion, spiritualism, and science be a process of evolution leading to a better understanding of the universe, physical and metaphysical?

Do you think it would be 'better' without these ideas? Like you said it easies inquiring minds about the unknown, wouldn't religion, spiritualism, and science be a process of evolution leading to a better understanding of the universe, physical and metaphysical?

Science is a process that HAS lead to a better understanding of the universe.

I would challenge you to explain to me how theism (spiritualism included :) ) has lead to a better understanding of the universe.

I would also submit that theism has hampered more than helped our understanding of the universe. So yes, without theism it would be better, at this point.

And so this thread turns into yet another replica of just about every other thread.

at some point in time, some single human being had to be the first one to ponder an afterlife.

My point is this.....that single human being is not you. Your ideas are predicated upon theistic beliefs involving a soul and afterlife. So when one asks "what am I?" and talks about afterlife and soul, I am correct in saying one can be classified as a defunct theist.

Your ideas of souls and afterlives are not really original thought so much as expounding and elaborating on thoughts and ideas that ALREADY exist. You have been infected with meme of theism. This meme affects your current ability to get philosophical about the meaning of life and will FORCE itself into your philosophy if you are not careful.

A spiritualist is a defunct theist, in America if I had to bet I would elaborate further by calling the spiritualist a defunct christian theist and many of your own personal "spiritualistic" ideas would mimic christian tradition, at best, and at worst, generic theism.

okay.

well, you are welcome to ask any questions about my beliefs. i wont argue with you, but ill tell you anything you want to know.