The following was posted as a thread in SotD by Billy Idol:

Armsmerchant,

Can we de-mod Slave of the Beast? A moderator is supposed to be helpful. He rarely creates threads (although not required for a mod) because he doesn't give a rat's ass about religion, metaphysics, ontology or pseudoscience. Umm... isn't that what this forum is about? Maybe he should be in Lab Tips or Mad Scientists; they're forums about real science, proofs and pudding. That sounds like a better use of time than lurking here and typing "says who?" and "nuh-uh!" after seemingly every post. He should be de-modded because he actually tries to undermine the very roots of this forum.


I closed the thread as inappropriate immediately, so I don't know how wide-spread this sentiment is. I do know, I concur.

Frankly, I feel like a fucking moron for having nominated him for modship in the first place. Foolishly, I had hoped he would grow into the position and "moderate" his own venom--dial down the temperature of his flames. This hasn't happened.

His ongoing flame war with Spectral has become, I think, an embarressment, and "conduct unbecoming" a mod.

Personally, I put up with the taunts and challenges directed at me for as long as I could, but when he resorted to ad hominem insult--implying I was a liar, a hypocrite, and a Christian--it became too much to bear. In the immortal words of e.e. cummings, "there is some shit i will not eat."

Perhaps I should be flattered, in some twisted way, that he spends such an inordinate amount of time and effort to quote my posts at length, nit-pick, twist my words, and seemingly deliberately misinterpret them, solely for the sake of being contentious, but I'm not.

It has reached such a pitch that I think it is coming close to the legal definition of harassment.

I really feel this is probably best left to Zok in email.

For what it's worth, my preference if I'm to be knifed, is that I be knifed from the front rather than the back.

The following was posted as a thread in SotD by Billy Idol:

Armsmerchant,

Can we de-mod Slave of the Beast? A moderator is supposed to be helpful. He rarely creates threads (although not required for a mod) because he doesn't give a rat's ass about religion, metaphysics, ontology or pseudoscience. Umm... isn't that what this forum is about? Maybe he should be in Lab Tips or Mad Scientists; they're forums about real science, proofs and pudding. That sounds like a better use of time than lurking here and typing "says who?" and "nuh-uh!" after seemingly every post. He should be de-modded because he actually tries to undermine the very roots of this forum.


I closed the thread as inappropriate immediately, so I don't know how wide-spread this sentiment is. I do know, I concur.

Frankly, I feel like a fucking moron for having nominated him for modship in the first place. Foolishly, I had hoped he would grow into the position and "moderate" his own venom--dial down the temperature of his flames. This hasn't happened.

My presence within SotD has always been contentious - even when I've been perfectly civil with people. You will notice that the complaint in question has nothing whatsoever to do with flaming. In truth it's the equivalent of an atheist mod, with an atheist outlook, frequently posting in MGCBTSOOYG and then being complained about by a poster of faith. And I've been the chief 'atheist in SotD' for a long time.

Is that a demodding offence?

His ongoing flame war with Spectral has become, I think, an embarressment, and "conduct unbecoming" a mod.

That "ongoing flame war", which has probably become part of the Totse furniture by now, has been held almost exclusively held within the confines of B&M since my being modded. I was also unaware that flaming within the designated forum was a demodding offence.

And I certainly do not conduct such exchanges with Spectral within Conspiracy, or for that matter, SotD. As you may or may not be know, neither I nor Spectral take our exchanges seriously, or as far as I'm aware does anyone else.

Personally, I put up with the taunts and challenges directed at me for as long as I could, but when he resorted to ad hominem insult--implying I was a liar, a hypocrite, and a Christian--it became too much to bear. In the immortal words of e.e. cummings, "there is some shit i will not eat."

Perhaps I should be flattered, in some twisted way, that he spends such an inordinate amount of time and effort to quote my posts at length, nit-pick, twist my words, and seemingly deliberately misinterpret them, solely for the sake of being contentious, but I'm not.

It has reached such a pitch that I think it is coming close to the legal definition of harassment.

I address you in the same tone as the other regulars in SotD. Which is evidenced by your own statement of my incessant "flaming" within SotD.

Equally, with both spend disproportionately large amounts of time there. You as forum mod, and I as long term regular. Claiming therefore that I'm selectively "harrassing" you is excessive, to say the least.

I don't have a personal problem with you at all Arm's, or anyone else on Totse, depsite what you may think - Spectral included! I would hope I could say the same about you with respect to me, but I'm doubtful, seeing as this post has largely focused on my personality, and not how I moderate. If my personality, due to your current personal and emotional circumstances, has become overtly wearing to the point of you demanding my demodding, then I apologize...

In short, Slave, you literally make me sick. I can imagine your rubbing your hands together and cackling with glee, maybe doing a little happy dance, at this news.

... as I was incredulous that anyone could seriously exert that much effect on someone.

I don't mind discussing it in the open as long as both Arms and Slave are. Arms seems to have a pretty strong case, but if Slave of the Beast would like to say anything in his defense before we decide what to do, I think that'd be ok. Also, if anyone else who's had specific dealings with the issue that like to make public, I think an open thread would work.

On a similar note, I think it'd be good if everyone started to discuss things in the open. Of course, you should choose your words carefully so that your discussion does not turn into an argument. I say this simply so that nobody is left in the dark about any decisions that are being made and so that everyone who is involved in the conflict gets to voice their opinion. So in that respect, I never mind being emailed about things that are only between you and me or about things that you think are particularly sensitive.

So if it's cool with Arms and Slave, I'd say leave the thread.

Edit: You guys post too fast

I'm happy for this to be an open discussion.

Zok, which points that Arm's has raised concern you in particular, i.e justify the removal of me as mod?

On a similar note, I think it'd be good if everyone started to discuss things in the open. Of course, you should choose your words carefully so that your discussion does not turn into an argument.

I totally agree, I've always said that if anyone has issues with how I modderate, tell me! :)

...and with an open thread even if I can't learn from my mistakes, maybe someone else can.

Having re-read Arm's post, I'd like to focus on what I think to be the driving force behind his request to de-mod me.

Frankly, I feel like a fucking moron for having nominated him for modship in the first place. Foolishly, I had hoped he would grow into the position and "moderate" his own venom--dial down the temperature of his flames. This hasn't happened.

Clearly you disliked me before you nominated me, Arm's, and clearly you still dislike me. And there's plenty of historical evidence to prove the former. The crux of the issue here is that you took a gamble on altering my persona and lost. I have often suspected this as your underlying motive, for the simple reason that I could not understand why you'd nominate someone you openly disliked. However, this doesn’t make me a bad mod, it simply means you failed to achieve your desired outcome. And now you want retribution, which if nothing else, means that you can put me on your ignore list, as you have already tried...

This is getting SO tiresome. I tried to put you on my "ignore" list, found out I can't, because you are a mod.

... and yes, you can opportunistically tack on a complaint about me disturbing the ambiance of SotD. But then you could have produced a complaint about me, either from within SotD or B&M (typically from Spectral, who's also vociferously complained about Rust, Nemisis and you in the past) at any point during my time there. As a frequent SotD regular, you could hardly have failed to be aware of this. Only now that you finally concede to yourself, that you have failed to induce the desired change in me, do you raise the issue as if it were a recent concern. Though it obviously never concerned you, despite being a prevalent issue, when you nominated me for reasons of unadulterated self-interest.

And where, if I've so far failed as a mod and in spite of your dubious reasons for nominating me, are the complaints about my moderation of Conspiracy? That is to say, the forum that's in my charge of care. Maybe Zok has received some, I don’t know. Be kind enough to disregard Spectral's rants about the lack of Gestapo modding, in relation to the "clowns, queers and cock-knockers" who apparently infest both Conspiracy and SotD.

To the Senior Staff:
If it is decided that I've acted in poor judgement, with regards to the way in which I've moderated Conspiracy, or conducted myself on Totse in relation to it's users and fellow mods, then I apologize and ask that those flaws be pointed out by you, so that I may be given a chance to rectify them. If I continue to fail in those respects, then I will simply have to accept that I'm a genuinely poor choice for the position of moderator, irrespective of which forum I mod.

However, if the primary consideration in this matter is the personal and isolated disappointment of one mod, for the candidate they chose to replace them, then I would ask this matter be dropped. For I cannot see how I can be held culpable for the failed gamble of another individual.

Just a suggestion Zok, but if you skimmed through all the closed threads and deleted posts via Arms where Slave is concerned, I'm sure you'd agree that Slave was neither spamming, arguing incessantly, twisting his words, or being pretentious. His only crime was holding an opposing view of Arms Merchant.

There are many people in SOTD and Conspiracies who argue their "points" of skepticism in a flaming fashion. They post "Bullshit" or the roll-eye icon without valid statements. Slave of the Beast is not one of these people.

Excerpts from the FAQ of SOTD, where most of Slave's posts were deleted (authored by Arms himself):

...it is fine to criticise another's ideas--please don't get personal...


Debate and civil disagreement is encouraged--mere naysaying--that is, posting something like "BULLSHIT" or "LOL" is infra dig.

I know what it's like to "post on eggshells" as a skeptic in a supernatural/paranormal forum. Debate, civil disagreement and the criticism of other's ideas has to be treaded on veryyyy lightly - else your posts are subject to deletion if Arms Merchant happens to feel like it treads on his beliefs.

It has reached such a pitch that I think it is coming close to the legal definition of harassment.

In my opinion, that is quite an overstatement.

I'd also like to add that Billy Idol, who called for the de-modding of Slave of the Beast, also regularly posts threads such as "Why the FUCK do skeptics hang around in SOTD???"

If being vocal about skepticism is cause for de-modding, then I fear my head may be next on the chopping block.

First off 'props' to both Arms and Slave for having this discussion openly. Personally I'd be much happier if those trying to get me demodded, because I'm a "bad" man IRL, would be as open.And I have nothing to say about this case specifically.

However I do feel that if a mod dislikes a co-mod (ie someone he mods a forum with) this intensely then it is beholden upon him to offer the Admins a choice and offer up his own head for the chop too. A 'I feel we no longer can work together, please demod one or both of us'.

Even Toraton managed that.

we just took a vote in my house.
keep Slave of the Beast on.
One vote .. aye.
opposed ... none.
(I live alone).
I know zero of him save this thread, but as he presents himself here, he seems worthy of an aye vote.

However I do feel that if a mod dislikes a co-mod (ie someone he mods a forum with) this intensely then it is beholden upon him to offer the Admins a choice and offer up his own head for the chop too. A 'I feel we no longer can work together, please demod one or both of us'.

Even Toraton managed that.

Well put, jack. But this isn't the case here. They mod two different forums. Granted, they're the ones that were recently dissected - but they're not required to co-mod in unison on the same forum.

I've no actual opinion on the matter since I don't venture into any of the forums in question, but I do want to say it's quite refreshing to see moderators act like adults and talk about their problems instead of throwing tantrums and bickering. Perhaps we can use this as an example for any future mishaps?

Good luck with the resolving. I have tons of respect for Arms, and Slave seems fairly decent from what I've seen, so... yeah. Hugs all around?

Why is a request for a mod to be de-modded made by an angered regular being taken seriously?

C'mon, we've all butthurt people here at times, if every request to de-mod someone is taken so seriously, people will think "hey, if we bitch enough, we can get this person de-modded! That will teach them!"
and it wont be professional, it wont be because they dont like how that mod moderates, it will because of a personal vendetta.



Allthough the issue becomes more serious if another mod,ie armsmerchant, agrees.



What I've read of SOTB's posts s/he has been witty, sharp, entertaining. If not a bit of a devils advocate..

The gentleman from Baltimore throws his support behind Slave.

I post occasionally in SoTD, but read it very frequently, and I can't think of any instances where Slave has acted unfit as a moderator, or done anything that should bring his moderator status into question.

As has been mentioned multiple times above me, the problem seems not one of moderator "ability", but merely one of opposing viewpoints. And I can't believe that simple disagreement over personal opinions/beliefs would/should/could warrant a demotion. ESPECIALLY since the forum of contention is one Slave doesn't even mod.

In SoTD, he's nothing but a regular. His voicing of disagreement there is no different than any other regular posting a dissenting opinion there. I mean, if Slave were a mod of SoTD, you could *maybe* see why this was brought up. It still wouldn't justify a demodding, I'm just saying that this discussion would carry more weight if Slave's actions had any real effect on the direction of the forum which, since he's not a mod there, don't.

I disagree with Jack on a lot of things in S&A, and I'm sure that most other moderators here have disagreements with other mods in their forums. However, there are never "requests for demodding" because I think all parties are generally mature enough to understand that disagreeing with a mod in their forum is nowhere near grounds for removal. Discussions on removing a mod should be based solely on their actions as a mod, and not on their personal beliefs (or in this case, disbeliefs).


Short version:
https://www.totse.com/community/images/icons/icon14.gif for keeping Slave

https://www.totse.com/community/images/icons/icon13.gif for demodding Slave

<3 for AngryFemme

*hits on robinhoody for his ability to literise stuff and express it in a literat manner*

If being vocal, contentious and confrontational are grounds for demoderation, Slave sure wouldn't be the only one to go.

...assholes

Seriously, personal dislike isn't a reason to ask for a demoderation. His modding in Conspiracy! is up to any standards you hold it to and he's doing nothing in SotD that he hasn't been doing for years.

Now that we've heard from Slave... Unless Arms has anything to add, I'm gonna go ahead and say that Slave stays. But the two of you ought to do your best to work together regardless of how much you like each other. Just don't let any personal differences get in the way of work.

Aside from that, I'm glad that this conversation was able to take place in the open. I think we should do it like this this more often if possible.

All I ask is that he refrain from abuse and personal insults.

Oh, and I wasn't crazy about the way he suggested the membership should pray for my wife's death.

All I ask is that he refrain from abuse and personal insults.

So why didn't you post that instead of asking to demod me, apart that is from simply being able to use the 'ignore' function? And seeing as you regard my mere questioning of you as "harassment", I not sure how long it'll be before you grossly misconstrue something else I say - see below.

Oh, and I wasn't crazy about the way he suggested the membership should pray for my wife's death.

On a daily basis I'm forced to watch a close relative slowly deteriorate under the influence of Alzheimer's and vascular dementia. Yet despite the current severity of their mental condition they may yet live for several years. Worse still is watching those who immediately have to care for them suffer the burden of this knowledge.

As a consequence of this, if his wife's condition is as critical and inevitable as he describes, then the most compassionate thing I can pray for both of them, is the swiftest and most painless demise possible for her.

The close relative in question is my father. A fact I didn't wish to make public information in SotD. An unfortunate consequence of my mother marrying a man 26 years her senior, is that I'll most likely get to watch him physically and mentally rot to death before I'm 30. The same (brutally objective, maybe) compassion I extend to him, I extended to your wife. I intended no more malice toward your kin than I do my own. Instead you interpret this as a suggestion to Totseans across the world, to kneel down and unite in sending waves of immediate death-thoughts to Alaska.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Did you not get my email? I assumed you had, since I noticed that you had deleted some of your own posts.

I literally BEGGED you to back off a little, and cited the personal distress your heavy sarcasm and constant calumny was causing me.

Slave and I are NOT co-mods. For reasons known only to him, he persists in trolling SotG, offering precious litttle but insults and sarcasm, suitable to an avowed disciple of the Amazing Randi.

His first choice WAS to mod SotG. My first choice was to mod My God. In the immortal words of that great English philosopher, Michael Jagger--"we don't always get what we want."

Did you not get my email?

I literally BEGGED you to back off a little, and cited the personal distress your heavy sarcasm and constant calumny was causing me.

You know full well I did, because I replied to it. As you raise the issue of private communication, do you wish me to post both your email and my response? I also have a copy of the post you deleted which I believe initiated your e-mail. And the only "heavy sarcasm and constant calumny" you have referred to is the implication that you are a "liar, a hypocrite, and a Christian" - which as far as I'm aware, directly stems from that single deleted post. Am afraid that your accusations of "harassment" levels of sarcasm and calumny, completely lack the accompanying evidence with which to support them.

And to be blunt Arm's, I don't expect others to observe different posting habits simply because certain aspects of my life are slowly imploding, which they are. You may consider that harsh, but I expect to be treated as I treat others - impartially as possible. And if it ever reaches the point whereby I cannot rationally function as mod, then I will step down and nominate a successor.

Rather that than begin to inflict significant errors of judgment on others.

Slave and I are NOT co-mods. For reasons known only to him, he persists in trolling SotG, offering precious litttle but insults and sarcasm, suitable to an avowed disciple of the Amazing Randi.

I have no issue with statements that are supported by fact. Which is why I welcomed this thread as an open debate; your claims would either fall or stand by their own merit. If what you claimed was found to be true, then I would have willingly accepted the consequences. However, merit is something that those statements obviously lack, seeing as your request has been rejected. Here therefore is the opportunity for you to remedy this situation and at least demonstrate that I persist in "trolling SotD, offering precious little but insults and sarcasm".

This should not be difficult, given the apparent magnitude of my actions.

Captain! Captain! I think we're losing containment on the warp coil! Abandon ship, she's gonna blow!

Sorry. That's just my way of saying that this is beginning to look eerily familiar....

Captain! Captain! I think we're losing containment on the warp core! Abandon ship, she's gonna blow!

Sorry. That's just my way of saying that this is beginning to look eerily familiar....

Fixed by a Trekkie!

Yes, that crossed my mind too, but this isn't spilling out across the board. And I don't have a vendetta against Arm's, nor an axe to grind with anyone else here. As soon as Zok says he's heard quite enough from both of us, I'll be going about my merry way - preferably still as a mod.

Besides, I feel can hardly leave the thread with the impression that on some level, suggestive or otherwise, I'd tried to kill Arm's wife!

Hey Meta did you happen to finish that album?

Alright, as long as both of you can work together without getting in each other's way, I think things will work out. It would be great if you guys could work out your differences, but if you can't, please learn to deal with them.

With that said, I'm going to close this thread to prevent any further argument.